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ericwilson

Not Enough?

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I consider the following to be more important (and having a higher priority) than believing in a God:

 

 

- Making charitable donations (out of your own goodness, rather than to simply comply with the pillars of Islam);

- Showing love and affection;

- Being a good friend;

- Helping others, and sharing;

- Obeying the Golden Rule;

- Working hard;

- Doing your best to help the environment;

- et al.

 

 

Do you lot agree or disagree?

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PropellerAds

Where do you think these "morals" came from if not religion?

 

Also, are you sure you are not doing it for yourself? Because you may not know it but people actually do tend to do things thinking they are doing it because they are kind or whatever, when really they are fulfilling there own selfish needs. Us Muslims have the same morals, but we do it for God (and ourselves)

 

What you have mentioned are basic morals which are shown in all religions.

 

 

Mehmet

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I do this stuff because I care.

 

Two of my relatives have died of cancer before, and I would hate to think how dreadful it must be for those who are going through it now. So I donate to cancer charities often (and occasionally others).

 

I give free tuitions to friends, and even friends of friends, whom are struggling at school. Where is the personal gain there?

 

I care about the human race, and so am doing everything I can to try and minimize the damage that I may be doing. I also study nuclear fusion - a clean energy source, and hope to contribute one day.

 

I treat others how I would like to be treated.

 

 

 

Why do most theists think that morality comes from religion?! Are you saying that you don't rape and murder people because of your religious beliefs?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

 

WE ALL HAVE HUMAN MORALITY!!

Edited by ericwilson

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Assalaamu alaikum,

 

Where does it come from then? If humans had such high morals then why was there slavery?

 

 

Mehmet

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Assalaamu alaikum,

 

Where does it come from then? If humans had such high morals then why was there slavery?

Mehmet

 

 

To quote the famous philosopher Daniel Dennet:

 

"...ethics must be somehow based on an appreciation of human nature- a sense of what a human being is or might be, and on what a human being might want to have or want to be."

 

Evolution provides an explanation as well (although a thorough explanation should be from a psychologist rather than a biologist); those who helped others (team worked) likely lived longer and overcame problems easier than those who were stubborn and evil. Hence they passed their "nice" genes on....this is a much more powerful explanation that it may at first appear.

 

 

By the way, there was slavery both before and after the authoring of the Qur'an. Slavery continues today.

Most people who enforced slaves were religious - so your argument, in fact, demonstrates that religion does not necessarily give morals.

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Assalaamu alaikum,

 

So.. people went from having no morals.. to have morals.. then why do we have murderers and rapists on the streets? Why haven't they evolved, have they got smaller brains than us? Hopefully your right, and in another thousand years they will evolve some more and we will all be nice people :sl:

 

Islam is the religion who gave slaves rights my friend. Before Islam slaves where treated like crap, had no rights whatsoever. Look into this.

 

 

Mehmet

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I consider the following to be more important (and having a higher priority) than believing in a God:

- Making charitable donations (out of your own goodness, rather than to simply comply with the pillars of Islam);

- Showing love and affection;

- Being a good friend;

- Helping others, and sharing;

- Obeying the Golden Rule;

- Working hard;

- Doing your best to help the environment;

- et al.

Do you lot agree or disagree?

The above points are very important

 

+ believing in God.

 

: )

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My take on the evolutionary explanation is to indicate how morality and ethics may have began to evolve initially; this process only goes so far. And there was never really a time when we had _no_ morality whatsoever. Believe it or not, ethics have been observed in apes and monkeys -- ours are just an improved version (due to greater intelligence).

 

 

As for slavery:

 

 

In the Islamic world slavery had religious rather than racial connotations, with most of the slaves in Ottoman history being Christians.

 

In Islam, the Qur'an accepts and endorses the institution of slavery, and Muhammad owned slaves (his actions are religiously binding through the Hadith). The slavery endorsed by the Qur'an limited the source of slaves to those captured in war and those born of two slave parents. The Qur'an considers emancipation of a slave to be a meritorious deed, yet nationwide emancipation did not occur in Muslim lands until post-WWII, with pressure exerted by Western nations such as Britain and France to secularise. Some Islamic nations have been among the last to outlaw slavery.

 

Following the work of campaigners in the United Kingdom, the Abolition of the Slave Trade Act was passed on March 25, 1807. The act imposed a fine of £100 for every slave found aboard a British ship. The intention was to outlaw the slave trade within the British Empire. The Slavery Abolition Act, passed on August 23, 1833, outlawed slavery in British colonies. On August 1, 1834 all slaves in the British Empire were emancipated, but those still working were to be indentured to their former owners for six years in an "apprenticeship" system, which was abolished in 1838 after peaceful protests in Trinidad.

 

 

...So remind me, what are you taking credit for...??

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The above points are very important

 

+ believing in God.

 

: )

 

But what is more important? Those points listed, or believing in God?

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To word it slightly differently:

 

would Allah be more proud of us (and forgiving of our sins) for simply believing in Him, or consistently doing those things listed above?

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But what is more important? Those points listed, or believing in God?

 

:sl:/Peace

 

I really don't understand the wisdom behind asking theists this type of question. Is it not obvious what the answer will be?

Edited by emel

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Assalaamu alaikum,

 

I haven't got time to talk about the whole evolution theory. There's so many floors in that - more than the floors in religion (in your opinion)

 

Like I said, Islam brought slaves rights - yes or no? Which they previously did not have. If you do your research on how slaves were treated etc maybe you will understand what I am saying.

 

Evolution huh.. comparing us to apes and monkeys.. so uhm.. when are these apes and monkeys going to start evolving into humans? That should be interesting.

 

 

Mehmet

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Assalaamu alaikum,

 

If you believe in Allah, you have to do alot more then the things you mentioned. What your doing is minor, Muslims have to do alot more, we just don't brag about it.

 

 

Mehmet

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:sl:/Peace

 

I really don't understand the wisdom behind asking theists this type of question. Is it not obvious what the answer will be?

 

 

Not as obvious as you may think.

 

The way I see it, is that either:

 

1- Allah is selfish and arrogant, by considering a mere faith in Him to be much more important than being good and helping others; or

 

2- Allah is loving, and cares more about his creations being happy than having His creations acknowledge Him.

 

(Note that some issues arise if the (2)nd choice is correct...)

 

 

Either way, Allah is either unpleasent, or contradictive (at least, it would seem...)

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Assalaamu alaikum,

 

(look at my previous post)

 

To us, your questions are very ignorant. Wouldn't it be better if you studied Islam, became knowledgeable and then asked your questions? Because it really does show you don't understand the basics of religion.

 

I'm inviting you to learn about Islam, and we will help you all the way in everything.

 

 

Mehmet

Edited by Righteous

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Assalaamu alaikum,

 

I haven't got time to talk about the whole evolution theory. There's so many floors in that - more than the floors in religion (in your opinion)

 

Like I said, Islam brought slaves rights - yes or no? Which they previously did not have. If you do your research on how slaves were treated etc maybe you will understand what I am saying.

 

Evolution huh.. comparing us to apes and monkeys.. so uhm.. when are these apes and monkeys going to start evolving into humans? That should be interesting.

Mehmet

 

 

There is not a single flaw in evolution. I would know - seeing as I've in fact studied it a great deal. There's UNDENIABLE evidence if you would only look at it.

 

Not a single public school or renowned university teaches intelligent design. It is accepted as fact in the scientific community (by those who actually know everything about it -- as opposed to theists who want it to fail).

 

I could also justify that there are many flaws in religion (as this topic seems to be heading towards doing...)

 

 

 

As for your last comment:

 

This PROVES that you know absolutely nothing at all about evolution!!!!!!!!!! Tell me, how much have you looked into the subject??!

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Assalaamu alaikum,

To us, your questions are very ignorant. Wouldn't it be better if you studied Islam, became knowledgeable and then asked your questions?

 

Why do I get these insults every single time I ask a question here?!

For a non-Muslim, I think I'm doing pretty well; I seem to know more about Islam than a number of my Muslim friends.. so perhaps you could cut me some slack??

 

Furthermore, I could easily turn your argument around on yourself: wouldn't it be better if you studied evolution, became knowledgeable (about facts that you can test and observe, rather than base it on faith and theory), and THEN ask your questions?!?!?

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Assalaamu alaikum,

 

If there's not a single flaw then get out your house, and start making some money. What's the whole world been doing messing around with religion when you had the answers all this time! Ah if only you told me before man.

 

It's funny, because, I was watching something about scientists even coming to the conclusion that there had to have been some kind of "creator" for the world to have been created. I can show you the video if you want.

 

I know as much about evolution then you know about Islam.

 

 

Mehmet

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Why do I get these insults every single time I ask a question here?!

For a non-Muslim, I think I'm doing pretty well; I seem to know more about Islam than a number of my Muslim friends.. so perhaps you could cut me some slack??

 

Furthermore, I could easily turn your argument around on yourself: wouldn't it be better if you studied evolution, became knowledgeable (about facts that you can test and observe, rather than base it on faith and theory), and THEN ask your questions?!?!?

 

Assalaamu alaikum,

 

I am sorry, I didn't mean it in an insulting way. But honestly, you don't know anything about Islam, same as I don't know about evolution. I don't need to learn about evolution, because I believe in the Creator of this earth.

 

 

Mehmet

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Assalaamu alaikum,

 

If there's not a single flaw then get out your house, and start making some money. What's the whole world been doing messing around with religion when you had the answers all this time! Ah if only you told me before man.

 

It's funny, because, I was watching something about scientists even coming to the conclusion that there had to have been some kind of "creator" for the world to have been created. I can show you the video if you want.

 

I know as much about evolution then you know about Islam.

Mehmet

 

 

Again, you're proving your ignorance of the subject. Read carefuly:

 

Scientists do not have all the answers. Scientists do not claim to have all the answers. Scientists currently cannot explain all processes of evolution, but they can however explain enough, and have enough evidence to demonstrate that it is correct.

(For example: you perhaps cannot explain all of the exact processes that create steam when you boil your kettle; but you know that the steam is produced, and can give a reasonable explanation as to how and why the water turns to steam. You accept that steam is in fact produced -- because you can see it, and you understand it to some extent. So just because you cannot explain the exact causes of all processes on the Quantum scale and such, doesn't mean that steam isn't produced. Do you see the analogy?).

 

 

 

A very very tiny minority of renowned scientists, who have been born since the birth of Darwinian evolution, have believed in a God. I can guarantee that there are no leading experts within any scientific discipline in that "video" of yours.

 

But I, however, can equally list videos and books where actual leading experts in their fields demonstrate that a belief in God is irrational, unjustified, non-evident, and quite ridiculous.

 

Many of the worlds leading scientists (since Darwinian Evolution) have been Atheists -- and you find that many of those who are not self declared Atheists do not really believe strongly in any religion, and often are more agnostic than religious.

 

Faith goes completely against the scientific method.

Edited by ericwilson

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Assalaamu alaikum,

 

I am sorry, I didn't mean it in an insulting way. But honestly, you don't know anything about Islam, same as I don't know about evolution. I don't need to learn about evolution, because I believe in the Creator of this earth.

Mehmet

 

 

- You don't need to learn about evolution because you believe in a Creator.

- I don't need to learn about Islam, because not only am I an Atheist, but I know that evolution is correct (because it's something that can be tested and observed - and is not based on faith).

 

So it is evident that if either of us could go without education on another subject, then it's me. Yet, I'm studying Islam, and you're not studying evolution...............???

 

 

(This is an honest observation; I don't mean to sound like a tw*t.)

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Assalaamu alaikum,

 

Yes you are correct. Scientists do not have all the answers. Yet you listen to them. Whereas I don't, I listen to God - Who is above all humans.

 

There's something which no one can answer - how was the world created. You believe in the big bang theory I am guessing? So do we. How do you explain the big bang theory? Don't you believe it "just happened"? Then why can you not believe in God.

 

I think you should make a thread on this subject if you want to talk about it. We have gone way off topic.

 

*Edit*

 

Yes but in my view I don't see any need of studying evolution when God tell's us the answer already. Ofcourse, you don't believe in God, that's why we have a problem here. To me your ignorant, to you I am ignorant :sl:

 

 

Mehmet

Edited by Righteous

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I'd prefer to keep this discussion in this topic if you don't object -- I've tried discussing similar subjects on this site before, and I just get flooded with soo much nonsense, with so many members trying to get their point across... I think it would be easier with just the two of us (and the occasional other who pops in..)..

 

Firstly, this statement bothers me:

 

>"Scientists do not have all the answers. Yet you listen to them."

 

There is a difference between believing what a scientist says, and what a holy book says; scientists provide solid evidence for their claims - and if you're still not happy, the beauty of science is that you can test it yourself!! A belief purely in a holy book however, is based entirely on faith - and is what many would consider "the acts of a fundamentalist".

 

So please note that difference.

 

 

>"There's something which no one can answer - how was the world created."

 

I assume by "world" you mean "universe" -- (because we can explain the formation of the Earth from straight after the big bang..). But yes, you're right, no one can explain the origin of the universe (that is, prior to the big bang).

 

 

>"You believe in the big bang theory I am guessing?"

Yes. Although "believe" makes it sound like it's down to opinion......the evidence is phenomenal. (Yet there's more supporting evolution than there is the big bang!)

 

 

>"How do you explain the big bang theory?"

I assume you mean prior to the supposed-singularity? We do not have a testable theory/explanation yet. So in short: I can not.

 

 

>"Don't you believe it "just happened"?"

For our universe, I suspect that cause and effect played some role; so, no, it didn't "just happen".

 

M-theory proposes an interesting explanation - but we won't be able to test that until later this year (at the earliest) - so it's just (logical) speculation.

 

 

>"Then why can you not believe in God."

For the exact same reason that I don't believe in the tooth fairy, or the spaghetti monster..

 

 

 

*edit*

 

>"To me your ignorant, to you I am ignorant"

hahaha, indeed.

 

But there is a difference between the fundamentals behind our beliefs; and that is: yours is based on faith and a holy book, mine is based on logic and evidence.

 

I strongly believe that what ever the cause of the universe was, it will have been incredibly simple. A God however, is not simple. A God is an incomprehensibly complex being, who fails to solve the problem that He was created to explain (..origin).

Edited by ericwilson

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Assalaamu alaikum,

 

No one can explain the origin of the universe prior to the thing bang, correct. We Muslims believe that this is the "unseen", we don't have knowledge about his - we know what we need to know. We believe that God made the universe. I think this explanation is better then yours, even though to you it means nothing - to us Muslims it means everything.

 

My friend, religion has been made in such a way that nothing obvious. Otherwise we would all be religious. This life is made in such a way that if you want to be an athiest, you can. And to you it makes a whole lot of sense. If you want to believe in evolution, you can. See how the world is created in such a way? You could live your life now believing there is no God, yet once you die you could find out that there is a God, and your going straight to hell. Think about that.

 

Another point.. imagine this..

 

Imagine that there are some kind of beings out there, much more advanced than we are. The leader of them decided to try out and experiment and create earth, and make some beings from a test tube. That is something which is possible right? I mean.. that's a really good explanation.. what questions can you ask? You are a mere human, while these advanced dudes have created you from some science which you can't even imagine. Imagine this, imagine that these guys genetically engineered you in such a way that you can't think of certain things.. for example.. think of a colour you have never seen. You can't can you, does that mean more colours don't exist? Or does it mean your brain is just limited.

 

(This is just me trying to get you to think, without involving religion - maybe that will help you)

 

Ok. Now.. let's bring religion back into it for another example. God created us in such a way, where we question everything. We believe that EVERYTHING has to have some kind of creator.. right? Now, imagine that here is another world (ie what we call heaven) Does that mean the same rules apply there? In heaven it may seem to people that nothing needs a creator - but here we believe everything needs to have a creator, this life is an illusion.

 

"Know ye (all), that the life of this world is but play and amusement, pomp and mutual boasting and multiplying, (in rivalry) among yourselves, riches and children. Here is a similitude: How rain and the growth which it brings forth, delight (the hearts of) the tillers; soon it withers; thou wilt see it grow yellow; then it becomes dry and crumbles away. But in the Hereafter is a Penalty severe (for the devotees of wrong). And Forgiveness from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure (for the devotees of Allah.. And what is the life of this world, but goods and chattels of deception?" (57:29)

 

I don't know if you will be able to understand what I mean. I hope you get the idea anyway, maybe it will give you something to think about. InshaAllah.

 

 

Mehmet

Edited by Righteous

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Salaams peeps,

 

- Making charitable donations (out of your own goodness, rather than to simply comply with the pillars of Islam);

- Showing love and affection;

- Being a good friend;

- Helping others, and sharing;

- Obeying the Golden Rule;

- Working hard;

- Doing your best to help the environment;

- et al.

 

These should naturally follow if you believe in God. I think its interesting how different people can interpret the above differently, e.g my definition of helping a friend may disagree with yours, which may cause conflict. Believing in God should lead you to follow the rules and guidelines of a religion, which sets the standards of being 'good'.

 

Peace

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