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I recently came across this website:

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetislamicperspectives(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/Apostasy1.htm"]Islamic Perspectives[/url]

 

It discusses apostasy in Islam and the punishment.

 

 

 

THE ABSENCE FROM THE QUR`AN OF ANY PENALTY FOR APOSTASY

 

It is a significant fact that the Book of God does not prescribe any punishment for apostasy. Many Muslims would immediately say, The Qur`an does not tell us everything. We need to go to the Hadith to find guidance on matters not touched by the Qur`an. But while this is true of matters of detail, this is not true of fundamental issues. God knew that while the Qur`an would be preserved faithfully, the authenticity of ahadith will remain subject to doubts in most cases. Therefore, he would make sure that all the basic teachings would be included in the Qur`an while leaving some details to ahadith so that the size of the Qur`anic text remains manageable for memorization. Looked in this way the absence in the Qur`an of any punishment for apostasy becomes very significant.

 

The punishment for apostasy is not a detail that we can expect God to leave for ahadith, especially if that punishment is death, since taking the life of a person, if done without a just cause, is regarded by the Qur`an as tantamount to killing all human beings (5:32). Even lesser penalties for theft (cutting of hands, 5:38), illicit sexual intercourse (100 lashes, 24:2), and unsubstantiated accusation of adultery (80 lashes, 24.4) were not considered by God as matters of details to be left to the ahadith. Therefore there is no reason why God would consider the more serious penalty of death for a more serious sin of apostasy as a matter of detail to be left to ahadith.

 

It is also significant that the Qur`an refers to apostasy several times (2:217, 3:86-90, 4:137, 9:66, 9:74, 16:106-109, 4:88-91, 47:25-27) and yet does not prescribe any punishment for it. Had the Qur`an not mentioned apostasy at all, we could have perhaps argued that there was no occasion for the Qur`anic revelation to deal with this subject and it was therefore left for the Holy Prophet to deal with. It may also be noted that almost all the verses that refer to apostasy are found in surahs said to be belonging to the Madinan period when the Islamic state had been established and penalties for crimes could be prescribed and applied. Only 16:106-109 appears in a surah identified as Makkan.

 

It is thus a natural conclusion to draw that the absence of any legal penalty for apostasy in the Qur`an means that God never intended any such penalty to become part of Islamic Shari‘ah.

 

Qur`an 4:88-91

 

The four verses, 4:88-91, when carefully examined, also show that the Qur`anic perspective conflicts with the death penalty for apostasy. The first two verses state:

 

Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two groups regarding the hypocrites? God has cast them backward (arkasa) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom God has made to go astray? And he whom God has made to go astray, you will not find for him any way. They wish that you reject faith as they have done, so that you all become the same. So take not protectors/friends from them till they emigrate in the way of God. But if they turn away, seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither protectors/friends from them nor helpers. (4:88-89)

 

This passage begins by talking about hypocrites, that is, people who had declared themselves Muslims but in their hearts had decided not to believe in the teachings of Islam. The demand that they should do hijrah fi sabil Allah (emigrate for the sake of God) shows that they are not the hypocrites of Madinah but are living among non-Muslims in Makkah and possibly elsewhere. Verse 98 of the same surah shows that these people were not doing hijrah despite the fact that they were able to. The reason for their not doing hijrah was their hypocrisy. Makkan non-believers who had persecuted Muslims for years, would not have tolerated in their midst any true Muslims. They would have accepted among them only those “Muslims†who had stopped taking their “Islam†seriously and felt more comfortable among non-believers, hostile to Islam, than among Muslims. These hypocrites pretended to be Muslims because they wanted to be secure from both sides (see 4:91). And Makkan non-believers did not force them to publicly renounce their “Islam†because they found them useful for gathering information about Muslims or for some other subversive actions against the ummah.

 

In order to defeat these hypocrites in their game and force them to clearly choose between Islam and kufr, God commanded them to do hijrah. Their obedience to this command meant that they had chosen Islam and their disobedience meant that they had chosen kufr. Those who chose kufr in this way became apostates, since previously they called themselves Muslims. Thus the verses are a source of guidance for us regarding the way the apostates are to be treated.

 

At first sight the words “seize them and kill them wherever you find them†would suggest that they are to be killed. But this is quickly seen to be wrong if we read the next two verses:

 

Except those who join a group between you and whom there is a (peace-) treaty or those who approach you with their hearts restraining them from fighting you or fighting their own people. Had God willed he would have given them power over you and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you and do not fight you but give you (guarantees of) peace, then God has opened no way for you against them.

 

You will find others that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people. Every time they are sent back to temptation they give in to it. If they do not withdraw from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace, nor restrain their hands, seize them and kill them, wherever you find them. In their case We have provided you with a clear warrant against them. (4:90-91).

 

These verses clarify the command “seize them and kill themâ€. The apostates who rejected Islam by failing to emigrate as commanded by God are divided into three categories:

 

 

 

1) Those who ally themselves with a group with whom Muslims have a peace treaty;

 

2) Those who want to keep neutrality, committing themselves to peace with both the Muslims and their own people who had not accepted Islam;

 

3) Those who provide no real guarantee of peace to Muslims and by all indications ally themselves with non-believers engaged in hostilities towards Islam.

 

 

 

The first two types of apostates are to be left in peace while the third one is to be treated like any non-believers in a state of war: they are to be seized and killed wherever they are found. Notice that the Qur`an uses the words “God has opened no way for you against them†in connection with the apostates of the first two types. This means that the Qur`an actually prohibits killing those apostates who want to live in peaceful terms with the Muslims.

 

Thus according to the Qur`an the apostates are to be treated like other kuffar: If they want to live in peace with the Muslims, they are to be left in peace and if they assume a hostile attitude, then they are to be treated accordingly.

 

 

I found the article very interesting and this scholar disagrees with many that apostasy is supposed to be punished.

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I often wonder why it's a big deal if a Muslim leaves Islam for another faith. If a Christian "apostasizes", people only say "well, he was never a Christian, he would have remained one" and that's all. Why can't Muslims be like this? Because I would imagine that to Allah, when they die, a man who never wanted to be a Muslim would probably be in the same boat as one who left Islam for another God-fearing religion. Only sincere believers are saved, right? It doesn't make sense to use force to keep people following a religion. A man's relationship with God isn't something that can or should be controlled by other men.

Edited by JCBeliever

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The person who write this article is a clearly not a scholar.

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I often wonder why it's a big deal if a Muslim leaves Islam for another faith. If a Christian "apostasizes", people only say "well, he was never a Christian, he would have remained one" and that's all. Why can't Muslims be like this?

 

Because God commanded us to take the life of those turn apostates. Why couldn't Moses(pbuh) be like that? Plus, it isn't like the Christians never used to kill apostates. Acceptance of apostates in Christendom has been a rather recent trend.

 

Because I would imagine that to Allah, when they die, a man who never wanted to be a Muslim would probably be in the same boat as one who left Islam for another God-fearing religion. Only sincere believers are saved, right?

 

Apostate Muslims are not saved.

 

It doesn't make sense to use force to keep people following a religion. A man's relationship with God isn't something that can or should be controlled by other men.

 

God has placed strict punishments on Earth for the major sins, to forgive you thereby, and to cause you to reconsider doing the sin in the first place, because a person who may be too shortsighted to avoid sin because of the Day of Judgment, will at least remember to avoid it because of a physical punishment now.

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I often wonder why it's a big deal if a Muslim leaves Islam for another faith. If a Christian "apostasizes", people only say "well, he was never a Christian, he would have remained one" and that's all. Why can't Muslims be like this? Because I would imagine that to Allah, when they die, a man who never wanted to be a Muslim would probably be in the same boat as one who left Islam for another God-fearing religion. Only sincere believers are saved, right? It doesn't make sense to use force to keep people following a religion. A man's relationship with God isn't something that can or should be controlled by other men.

 

 

It is not a big deal if someone leaves Islam for another relgion and such a person is not punished. But it's a big deal when someone who leaves Islam makes it public and invites others to leave Islam. This is considered treason in an Islamic state especially when muslims are under attack from everywhere. So if a muslim changes his faith and practices christianity and treats his new faith as a personal matter between himself and God, then nobody has the right to bother him, he will be protected by the Islamic state and his wealth and honour is protected just like other christians who live under the muslims' protection. However if he tries to convert other people, writes books against Islam, goes on TV shows to condemn Islam and dishearten muslims at the time of war and confusion, then he is prohibited by the state and is given a chance to repent for his actions.

 

This is more a political issue than a theological one. The ruling regarding apostacy changes by time and it depends on how strong the Islamic state is. If the Islamic state is strong, then it can afford to ignore such people since they can only harm themselves. But when the Islamic state is weak and under attack or is at war with enemies, then apostacy can become a danger to the state and can lead to civil war, disrespect for law and order and much evil as we have witnessed throughout history.

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This is more a political issue than a theological one. The ruling regarding apostacy changes by time and it depends on how strong the Islamic state is. If the Islamic state is strong, then it can afford to ignore such people since they can only harm themselves. But when the Islamic state is weak and under attack or is at war with enemies, then apostacy can become a danger to the state and can lead to civil war, disrespect for law and order and much evil as we have witnessed throughout history.

 

So it is not God's wish then that Apostates in Islam be punished? It is mans own political tool for maintaining muslim numbers?

 

I was under the impression that there is no compulsion in Islam, is this still correct and it is muslim men, "scholars" making Islam compulsory, against God's wishes? I can understand Islam adjusting according to the introduction of new technologies that were not around at the time of the Prophet, but I would have thought Apostacy would be the same now as then.

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:sl: brothers and sisters in Islam

 

Ah, the most loved topic for non-Muslims...again.

 

but I would have thought Apostacy would be the same now as then.
It is, or at least should be. Islam is a religion for all places and all times- it is not Islam that needs to change to fit in with people's desires; It is us Muslims who should adjust our lifestyles to the Islamic way of life.

 

I was under the impression that there is no compulsion in Islam

There is no compulsion in Islam for one who has not become a Muslim yet.

 

I think discussing apostasty with non-Muslims is useless. They will never agree with us in this subject specifically, and nor us with them. I don't see the point.

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:sl:

I think discussing apostasty with non-Muslims is useless. They will never agree with us in this subject specifically, and nor us with them. I don't see the point.

 

Probably right, each to their own

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Has any muslim ever had a friend confide in them that they wanted to turn their back on Islam, or know of anyone that has turned their back on Islam (on a personal level).

 

If so, what was your reaction?

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Has any muslim ever had a friend confide in them that they wanted to turn their back on Islam, or know of anyone that has turned their back on Islam (on a personal level).

 

If so, what was your reaction?

 

Almost all of my friends in college apostated when we were into our second year of college. My reaction was neutral and I think this shows that it's not just luck that may give you salvation, you should work for it. Those kids were born muslim and went to muslim schools and taught by muslim teachers and yet they rejected Islam. Non-muslims usually ask me: what if you were not born muslim, were you still be a muslim or you are just lucky that you are born muslim. Yes I may be lucky that I was born a muslim but it was not just luck that kept me a muslim; it was also my effort to understand my religion and practice it correctly. The same way there are many non-muslims who revert to Islam out of studying and making the effort.

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Almost all of my friends in college apostated when we were into our second year of college. My reaction was neutral and I think this shows that it's not just luck that may give you salvation, you should work for it. Those kids were born muslim and went to muslim schools and taught by muslim teachers and yet they rejected Islam. Non-muslims usually ask me: what if you were not born muslim, were you still be a muslim or you are just lucky that you are born muslim. Yes I may be lucky that I was born a muslim but it was not just luck that kept me a muslim; it was also my effort to understand my religion and practice it correctly. The same way there are many non-muslims who revert to Islam out of studying and making the effort.

 

Did your friends convert to Christianity, or did they just leave Islam for a secular lifestyle with no religion? Alot of people leave religion in college, because they want to do sinful things.

 

 

Because God commanded us to take the life of those turn apostates. Why couldn't Moses(pbuh) be like that? Plus, it isn't like the Christians never used to kill apostates. Acceptance of apostates in Christendom has been a rather recent trend..

 

But this isn't in the Quran. Where does Allah command this?

 

Moses was under a very difficult time and the Jewish nation could at any moment be eliminated, but I assure you God's wishes were never that this would be the law for all of mankind, to kill apostates. In fact, the 5th Commandment is "Thou shalt not kill". The early Christian community never even killed apostates and even suffered much under Romans, but they have become the #1 world religion. Kiling apostates was never necessary after Moses.

Edited by JCBeliever

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Did your friends convert to Christianity, or did they just leave Islam for a secular lifestyle with no religion? Alot of people leave religion in college, because they want to do sinful things.

But this isn't in the Quran. Where does Allah command this?

 

Moses was under a very difficult time and the Jewish nation could at any moment be eliminated, but I assure you God's wishes were never that this would be the law for all of mankind, to kill apostates. In fact, the 5th Commandment is "Thou shalt not kill". The early Christian community never even killed apostates and even suffered much under Romans, but they have become the #1 world religion. Kiling apostates was never necessary after Moses.

 

None of them converted to any other religion. They simply stopped believing in prophet Mohammad and the Quran but most of them still believed in God, the way muslims believe in Him. It's almost impossible for a person who is born muslim to accept christianity since Trinity is hard to swallow. I have seen some people who converted to christianity to get their immigration papers faster.

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I always find it funny how other Muslims react when the issue of apostacy is brought up. I've noticed that they almost never say outright that apostacy is allowed in Islam and simply dance around the issue with sugar coated words and laughable reasoning. I think it's because to simply state it outloud would bring you one step closer to understanding just how indefensible it really is.

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I think discussing apostasty with non-Muslims is useless.
I'm sure if he used to be a muslim you'd just cut straight to the business and kill him wouldn't you :sl: ?

 

I hope you get hit by a bus.

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But this isn't in the Quran. Where does Allah command this?

 

Much of Islam's laws are not found in the Qur'an. God commands this through His Prophet(pbuh).

 

Moses was under a very difficult time and the Jewish nation could at any moment be eliminated, but I assure you God's wishes were never that this would be the law for all of mankind, to kill apostates. In fact, the 5th Commandment is "Thou shalt not kill". The early Christian community never even killed apostates and even suffered much under Romans, but they have become the #1 world religion. Kiling apostates was never necessary after Moses.

 

According to the Bible there were 600 000 Jewish men capable of going to war, only 3000 apostates were killed. Surely 3000 apostates don't pose a great threat against 2 million Jews. The 5th commandement is "thou shall not murder". Murder means that you take someone's life unlawfully, an apostate's life is lawful for you to take. Note, this doesn't mean that I can go and kill ex-Muslim apostates, it has to be done by the authorities. I'm sure plenty of Jews killed apostates after Moses(pbuh), probably even Jewish Prophets(pbut) also killed apostates.

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:sl: brothers and sisters in Islam

 

I'm sure if he used to be a muslim you'd just cut straight to the business and kill him wouldn't you :sl:?
No, the Islamic authorities would, after trying to reason with him and failing. It wouldn't be in my place to do that.

 

I hope you get hit by a bus.

I hope Allah guides you.

Edited by xXxXMuslima-4-LifeXxXx

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Salaams

 

t is also significant that the Qur`an refers to apostasy several times (2:217, 3:86-90, 4:137, 9:66, 9:74, 16:106-109, 4:88-91, 47:25-27) and yet does not prescribe any punishment for it.

 

I see that the majority of the people in this thread have conveniently ignored the above comment. Allah(swt) has mentioned apostasy so many times in the Qur'an , yet prescribed no earthly punishment for it....

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Much of Islam's laws are not found in the Qur'an. God commands this through His Prophet(pbuh).

 

Then maybe thee laws weren't meant for all of mankind, or for all times. Maybe, like with Moses, they were meant only for a specific time and place when the Muslims were very vulnerable to being wiped out and needed full unity.

 

What do you think about early Christian communities? They never had apostasy laws, and even were persecuted by the Roman and Persian empires. But Christianity became a very successful religion. What does that tell you? Apostasy is unnecessary, even in such dire times.

 

According to the Bible there were 600 000 Jewish men capable of going to war, only 3000 apostates were killed. Surely 3000 apostates don't pose a great threat against 2 million Jews. The 5th commandement is "thou shall not murder". Murder means that you take someone's life unlawfully, an apostate's life is lawful for you to take. Note, this doesn't mean that I can go and kill ex-Muslim apostates, it has to be done by the authorities. I'm sure plenty of Jews killed apostates after Moses(pbuh), probably even Jewish Prophets(pbut) also killed apostates.

 

How long did this continue? Not very long in Biblical history. It was never destined that apostasy laws would continue.

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Salaams

I see that the majority of the people in this thread have conveniently ignored the above comment. Allah(swt) has mentioned apostasy so many times in the Qur'an , yet prescribed no earthly punishment for it....

 

:sl:

 

There is apostasy that simply cannot be punished, it is hidden disbelief, in other words hypocrisy. A hypocrite is a person who doesn't believe but acts like a Muslim. He can't be punished because we can't peel into his heart. The authorities can't punish someone unless they've shown evidence for their apostasy.

 

God has prescribed earthly punishment for apostasy through His Prophet(pbuh).

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Then maybe thee laws weren't meant for all of mankind, or for all times. Maybe, like with Moses, they were meant only for a specific time and place when the Muslims were very vulnerable to being wiped out and needed full unity.

 

The laws were for all mankind, for all times. To show otherwise, we'd need a new Revelation ; Revelation ended after the death of the Prophet(pbuh).

 

Plus, the commandement to kill apostates weren't just for a specific time and place when it comes to the Torah Law, if you read Deuteronomy 17, you'll notice that it was to be implemented in the Jewish State.

 

You can not either claim that this was only Moses(pbuh) speaking because every word Moses(pbuh) spoke was backed by God.

 

What do you think about early Christian communities? They never had apostasy laws, and even were persecuted by the Roman and Persian empires. But Christianity became a very successful religion. What does that tell you? Apostasy is unnecessary, even in such dire times.

 

The early Christian communities were like the early Muslim community, they had no State. The Prophethood of say Moses(pbuh) and Muhammed(pbuh) is totally different from Jesus(Pbuh)'s because the former ran a State. I can't decide to kill apostates in a foreign state that does not operate by my laws. Christianity became a succesful religion also because it was chosen to be a state religion.

 

How long did this continue? Not very long in Biblical history. It was never destined that apostasy laws would continue.

 

Deuteronomy 17:1-7. To summarise the verses, kill everyone who has different beliefs. I don't know for how long did this continue since the Children of israel were notorious for not following/implenting their Laws, but it is evident that the apostasy laws were one of God's Laws according to the OT and not just one specific command to kill the calf-worshipers.

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Plus, the commandement to kill apostates weren't just for a specific time and place when it comes to the Torah Law, if you read Deuteronomy 17, you'll notice that it was to be implemented in the Jewish State.

 

I believe that Christianity superceded Judaism. You have a similar belief. Many laws were not longer necessary, or they would have been reaffirmed by Christ.

 

 

The early Christian communities were like the early Muslim community, they had no State. The Prophethood of say Moses(pbuh) and Muhammed(pbuh) is totally different from Jesus(Pbuh)'s because the former ran a State. I can't decide to kill apostates in a foreign state that does not operate by my laws. Christianity became a succesful religion also because it was chosen to be a state religion.
When the Christians were in states in the Middle Ages, that's when a bunch of bad things happened. Christianity is a so-called heavenly religion and isn't compatable with politics and power. I think Jesus foresaw this and didn't pressure Christians to form states. In fact, Islam suffers from bad effects of state power in some places. It's a harmful thing to religion.

 

 

Deuteronomy 17:1-7. To summarise the verses, kill everyone who has different beliefs. I don't know for how long did this continue since the Children of israel were notorious for not following/implenting their Laws, but it is evident that the apostasy laws were one of God's Laws according to the OT and not just one specific command to kill the calf-worshipers.

 

Jews stopped believing in this a long time ago. You should be very proud or there would not be any Palestinians alive and that lovely Dome of the Rock might as well have been torn down and the temple rebuilt!

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I believe that Christianity superceded Judaism. You have a similar belief. Many laws were not longer necessary, or they would have been reaffirmed by Christ.

 

I agree that this is probably true when it comes to Christianity,. BUT I responded to this:

 

Moses was under a very difficult time and the Jewish nation could at any moment be eliminated, but I assure you God's wishes were never that this would be the law for all of mankind, to kill apostates. In fact, the 5th Commandment is "Thou shalt not kill". Kiling apostates was never necessary after Moses. Then maybe thee laws weren't meant for all of mankind, or for all times. Maybe, like with Moses, they were meant only for a specific time and place when the Muslims were very vulnerable to being wiped out and needed full unity. How long did this continue? Not very long in Biblical history. It was never destined that apostasy laws would continue.

 

Now, I've clearly shown that apostasy laws were ordered to be continued after Moses(pbuh) and that they were necessary and that they weren't only for one specific time and place and that it atleast should've continued for a lot of time in Biblical history.

 

When the Christians were in states in the Middle Ages, that's when a bunch of bad things happened. Christianity is a so-called heavenly religion and isn't compatable with politics and power. I think Jesus foresaw this and didn't pressure Christians to form states. In fact, Islam suffers from bad effects of state power in some places. It's a harmful thing to religion.

 

What do you call the Torah(Law) then? God certainly thought that religion is compatible with politics and power.

 

Jews stopped believing in this a long time ago. You should be very proud or there would not be any Palestinians alive and that lovely Dome of the Rock might as well have been torn down and the temple rebuilt!

 

Well, the Jews stopped believing in their God for long periods of time and reverted to idolatery of Baal and other sinful activities. Does that make idolatery right? Of course not. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that I don't care what the majority of Jews think. But I bet you that the real Orthodox Jews would like to bring the Torah laws back into effect.

 

I don't know how the law should be interpreted. It probably doesn't mean that you have to kill everyone with different beliefs as in Muslims and Christians, I think it refers to apostate Jews. That's if the law is analogous to Islam. But then again I don't know.

 

Jews are forbidden from destroying houses where you worship the One God, that includes Masjids.

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I agree that this is probably true when it comes to Christianity,. BUT I responded to this:

Now, I've clearly shown that apostasy laws were ordered to be continued after Moses(pbuh) and that they were necessary and that they weren't only for one specific time and place and that it atleast should've continued for a lot of time in Biblical history.

 

Jews did stop this apostasy thing. Today, they don't even think about doing this. We should be thankful, right? There wouldn't be any Muslims or Christians living in Palestine at all. And don't think they believe the Dome of the Rock is a house of God in the same sense as their Temple. They probably would like to see their own house of God on that holy site.

 

What do you call the Torah(Law) then? God certainly thought that religion is compatible with politics and power.

Well, the Jews stopped believing in their God for long periods of time and reverted to idolatery of Baal and other sinful activities. Does that make idolatery right? Of course not. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that I don't care what the majority of Jews think. But I bet you that the real Orthodox Jews would like to bring the Torah laws back into effect.

 

I call the Toral law a temporary thing not designed to be God's laws for all of mankind, or the same laws would have been issued to Adam and Noah, and Jesus. But, that isn't the case.

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Jews did stop this apostasy thing. Today, they don't even think about doing this. We should be thankful, right? There wouldn't be any Muslims or Christians living in Palestine at all. And don't think they believe the Dome of the Rock is a house of God in the same sense as their Temple. They probably would like to see their own house of God on that holy site.

 

How do you know that Jews don't even think about this? Obviously, you are not familiar with Orthodox Judaism. The Muslims and Christians of Palestine are not apostate Jews. The Dome of the Rock is a House of God, but I agree that they'd like to see their Temple on that site.

 

I call the Toral law a temporary thing not designed to be God's laws for all of mankind, or the same laws would have been issued to Adam and Noah, and Jesus. But, that isn't the case.

 

The Torah was supposed to be in effect for a long period of time and it still is supposed to be in effect according to Orthodox Judaism, either way it can't be just seen as "a temporary thing" that you can brush off. I think your trying to fit the God of israel in the role of the NT Jesus, who is all-loving etc. You've made a few attempts at this. Your first attempt was to ascribe the "shameful part of the OT" to Moses(pbuh). Your second attempt was to show that it was only an isolated event with the Jews and not a law. Now, you're just basing your opinions on guesswork. Do you see where this is leading?

 

How do you know what was issued to Adam, Noah and Jesus(pbut)?

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How do you know that Jews don't even think about this? Obviously, you are not familiar with Orthodox Judaism. The Muslims and Christians of Palestine are not apostate Jews. The Dome of the Rock is a House of God, but I agree that they'd like to see their Temple on that site.

 

The Torah was supposed to be in effect for a long period of time and it still is supposed to be in effect according to Orthodox Judaism, either way it can't be just seen as "a temporary thing" that you can brush off. I think your trying to fit the God of israel in the role of the NT Jesus, who is all-loving etc. You've made a few attempts at this. Your first attempt was to ascribe the "shameful part of the OT" to Moses(pbuh). Your second attempt was to show that it was only an isolated event with the Jews and not a law. Now, you're just basing your opinions on guesswork. Do you see where this is leading?

 

How do you know what was issued to Adam, Noah and Jesus(pbut)?

 

What do you believe the law of Adam and Noah was? or the Injil, what laws should have been in this? I can't see how you would have better answers.

God is all loving and doesn't want people to become corrupt like the Pharisees with all of their laws. Is this a faulty image of God in Christianity? That He wanted the laws summarized and corrected for all of mankind under the Messiah?

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