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Muslims Against Sharia?

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This is pure ##, why do you compare Pakistan, Afghanistan, os even saudi for that matter to Islam? Is there Shura that takes place before they make a decision in those countries? were they not established because of western governments? how are the Islamic? if you want to compare, compare Al-andalus, Khilafa from Abu Bakar (RA) time, not Bullshit about Taliban! if you dont know anything asking wouldnt hurt!

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Salaam,

 

Pashton, he was asked to provide an example from Pakistan (in post 24) and he did so. I would have used the Muktar Mai case to prove the same point.

 

Peace and Love,

 

DARLA

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This is pure ##, why do you compare Pakistan, Afghanistan, os even saudi for that matter to Islam? Is there Shura that takes place before they make a decision in those countries? were they not established because of western governments? how are the Islamic? if you want to compare, compare Al-andalus, Khilafa from Abu Bakar (RA) time, not Bullshit about Taliban! if you dont know anything asking wouldnt hurt!

 

 

Just to reiterate what Darla said, Ifty asked me to post something about rapes in Pakistan... so I did. I have no idea what you're ranting about.

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:sl:

 

i guess people in pakistan have already given an account of what's really going on. i would like to add that how can people in pakistan support the pakistani government that turns a complete deaf ear to the interest of people in pakistan?

 

few months ago, the pakistani government sent in a helicopter that bombed an Islamic school and killed dozens of students and their teachers. students and teachers???!!! if they were suspects, why didn't the government bring them in instead of plainly bombing and killing everybody? only that government and the american president believes that they are waging a war on "terror" by killing innocent people.

 

:sl:

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Just to reiterate what Darla said, Ifty asked me to post something about rapes in Pakistan... so I did. I have no idea what you're ranting about.

How many rapes occur in Islamic countries? The ones you hear about are probably only the tip of the iceberg - if I was a woman who had just been raped I wouldn't then like to be accused of adultery and tried as such.

 

that is a quote from you earlier on, now you tell me if Pakistan is Islamic. The country for being classified as Islamic would mean that the country is run by Sharia; thats the way WE classify ourselves.

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How many rapes occur in Islamic countries? The ones you hear about are probably only the tip of the iceberg - if I was a woman who had just been raped I wouldn't then like to be accused of adultery and tried as such.

 

that is a quote from you earlier on, now you tell me if Pakistan is Islamic. The country for being classified as Islamic would mean that the country is run by Sharia; thats the way WE classify ourselves.

 

 

How about you go back and read who actually wrote that quote... and then stop blowing off at me? How about that?

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..

 

This was a case pointing towards power of feudal system in Pakistan, thai and many cases like this occur in Pakistan because of feudal system, gift of British rule over subcontinenet when they gifted large pieces of lands to traitors. But what Islam has to do in this case? Islamic parties are fighting against Feudal system, and in NWFP, they defeat these feudal lords in elections and now Taliban like people are in givt there, and insha Allah the same will occur in coming days. Islam is against Feudal system, and these generations of traitors will soon kicked out .

 

And again, you didn't answer me that WHAT YOUR HOPES HAVE TO DO WITH SOMETHING HAPPENING IN MY COUNTRY.

go and stop your govt from killing innocents.

Edited by iftikharalam

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My point was about judiciary system and "hadood ordinance" ,THE Islamic LAW REGARDING WOMEN RAPE IN PAKISTAN, when many idiots say that in this case, if women failed to provide 4 witnesses than she is charged with adultry. He was pointing towards this because most dumb westerners and dumb western media did a propganda against this Islamic law in Pakistan. I was asking an example about this, offcourse every country has rape cases, but I am sure that rapes in your country are 100 times than in Pakistan or any other muslim country.

Edited by iftikharalam

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Salaam,

 

Isn't there a slight problem here? Whilst I'm glad the Muslims on the forum believe it is not part of Islam for a woman to have to provide 4 male witnesses or be accused as it speaks volumes for their tolerance, the hudood laws in Pakistan weren't formed in an abstract. Pakistani Muslims (I don't know whether they are scholars) ARE saying that this is what Islamic law is so there seems to be a clash. When the Pakistani govt suggested it might repeal or modify these laws, these same people complained that this would be 'unislamic'.

 

Peace and Love,

 

DARLA

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While I think that if women failed to provide 4 witnesses than she is charged with adultery is a stretch, I m not sure what the Islamic law says abt it.

 

But what if the woman lied abt the rape... the man/men image will b tarnished and one can forget abt them having a normal life again. The society will sideline him & his family will also b looked down upon. If they are found not guilty, many will claim that since they are men they got free (feminist groups) or he bought himself out of the case.

 

Can ppl accuse others of crime & just away with it?

 

Look at the Duke case... i feel sorry for those guys... if the same happened in Pakistan, the west, all these NGOs would have claimed that the justice dept have sided with men coz they don't want to give women justice.

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Salaam,

 

Isn't there a slight problem here? Whilst I'm glad the Muslims on the forum believe it is not part of Islam for a woman to have to provide 4 male witnesses or be accused as it speaks volumes for their tolerance, the hudood laws in Pakistan weren't formed in an abstract. Pakistani Muslims (I don't know whether they are scholars) ARE saying that this is what Islamic law is so there seems to be a clash. When the Pakistani govt suggested it might repeal or modify these laws, these same people complained that this would be 'unislamic'.

 

Peace and Love,

 

DARLA

 

Propganda:

 

A woman needs to have 4 witnesses for rape case under Huddod ordinance in Pakistani judiciary system otherwise charged with Adultery.

 

Truth:

 

There is no such ## in huddod ordinance, this is all lie, infact, If one track down all the cases in Pakistan under Pakistani Huddod ordinance, there is not single case pointing towards this ## propaganda. Now, One can think about the sick minds of western media who publish lies and lies and lies, until majority start believing it.

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Propganda:

 

A woman needs to have 4 witnesses for rape case under Huddod ordinance in Pakistani judiciary system otherwise charged with Adultery.

 

Truth:

 

There is no such ## in huddod ordinance, this is all lie, infact, If one track down all the cases in Pakistan under Pakistani Huddod ordinance, there is not single case pointing towards this ## propaganda. Now, One can think about the sick minds of western media who publish lies and lies and lies, until majority start believing it.

 

 

 

.. I'm wondering why whenever I say anything that may be slightly insulting I get stomped on by a mod... but I can be called an idiot repeatedly without seeing any action on it... Online Dhimmi-tude, perhaps?

 

 

Ifty, you were saying there were no rapes in Pakistan and asked me for evidence. I gave you that evidence. Don't get angry just because I showed that there was rape in your country.

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You need to read this thread again, I was replying to someone else about the rape, and my point was to show me evidence in which a women accused of adultery if not come up with 4 witnesses under hudood law. Now stop your childish behaviour, and no one here is sayo[##][/##]ing that there is no rape in my country, or his country. Rapes occur every where, but again, wny are you not answering " What your haopes have to do something occuring in Pakistan, My country?"

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My point was about judiciary system and "hadood ordinance" ,THE Islamic LAW REGARDING WOMEN RAPE IN PAKISTAN, when many idiots say that in this case, if women failed to provide 4 witnesses than she is charged with adultry. He was pointing towards this because most dumb westerners and dumb western media did a propganda against this Islamic law in Pakistan. I was asking an example about this, offcourse every country has rape cases, but I am sure that rapes in your country are 100 times than in Pakistan or any other muslim country.

 

Any proof of that?.....Didn't think so err..."dumb idiot"

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You need to read this thread again, I was replying to someone else about the rape, and my point was to show me evidence in which a women accused of adultery if not come up with 4 witnesses under hudood law. Now stop your childish behaviour, and no one here is sayo[##][/##]ing that there is no rape in my country, or his country. Rapes occur every where, but again, wny are you not answering " What your haopes have to do something occuring in Pakistan, My country?"

 

Well if you want to know, my hope was that Pakistan would move to a more Liberal, secular country based on freedom of speech and universal human rights, as opposed to slipping into a antiquated theocratic society. I admit to being ignorant about the MQM, but I thought they were concerned citizens taking a stand against the fanatics in Abdul Aziz's Masjid. Turns out I was wrong, and my hopes are dashed. Dashed I tell you!!! :sl:

 

my point was to show me evidence in which a women accused of adultery if not come up with 4 witnesses under hudood law

 

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking me then... Do you want examples of women who were punished for failing to provide 4 witnesses after a rape... or where Hudood law orders them too..? Just need some clarification.

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Behold...

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetpakistani(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/pakistan/legislation/zia_po_1979/ord7_1979.html"]The Offense of Zina (Enforcement of Hudood) Ordinance, 1979[/url]

 

The four witness thing is apparently true, but the Ordinance was repealed in 06.

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Salaam,

 

Are you sure it was repealed? In September 06 the Pakistani govt seemed to be having difficulty with that because of hardliners: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/5346968.stm"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/5346968.stm[/url]. The report also says it was the Islamist parties, like the MMA, who were supporting the existing (ie: 4 male witnesses) laws and were opposed to change.

 

Peace and Love,

 

DARLA

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Salaam,

 

I stand corrected. The hudood ordinances were repealed and rape now comes under criminal rather than sharia law thus allowing forensic evidence to be used. (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Women%27s_Protection_Bill"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Women%27s_Protection_Bill[/url]

 

Peace and Love,

 

DARLA

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eeeeeeeh, Where is a woemen in Pakistani jail who is serving a sentence in pakistani jail because she falied to provide 4 witnesses of her rape, and than accused for adultry? when this happen in my country? where is she? when did she sentenced to death? in which jail she is serving her sentence? The truth is there is no such case, no such thing happened in entire history of this law, but still people do this propoganda.

 

And that new law that replace Huddod ordinance with the name of women protection bill is a real joke. there is no such thing as " women protection", you can just get a hint what these feudal lords did who are sitting in parliment when Islamic scholars forwarded following things to add in it, and to make it "women protection bill"

1. To make it a crime to marry a girl with non human thing ( People in interior sindh and punjab marry their daughters and sisters to Quran, or anyother religious symbol to save their property to be distributed)

 

2. To make forced marriages crime.

 

3. To make under age marriages crime.

 

4. to make a stict law that ensure proper distribution of wealth and property among women of Pakistan according to Islamic law.

 

5. To ban watta satta marriages.

 

these are the real issues of Pakistan, but this crap govt refused all these. I don't know what these sick people call "women protection bill".

Edited by iftikharalam

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Salaam,

 

Ifti, I don't often agree with you, but I totally agree that the things high lighted should also have been in any bill. Well, definitely points 1-4. I don't know what 5 is but if it's in the same thread, then I'm for it.

 

Forced and under age marriages do nothing but legitimise rape. Marrying a woman to the Quran deprives her of having the choice to marry and raise a family and would I be wrong to assume by the point 4 that there is some custom banning female inheritance?

 

Ifti, may I ask your opinion as to why you think these things haven't been tackled? You obviously, and rightly, feel strongly about them.

 

Peace and Love,

 

DARLA

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Because Pakistani syetem is feudal system in most part of the pakistan, Under british rule, British rulers distributed large pieces of lands to the traitors.Today, generation of these people are sitting in pakistani parliment, they control our govt from the first day,because they have power, they have money and they rule over their lands and poor people work on their lands. except MMA(islamic party) members and MQM members, all other political partiies members who are sitting in parliment are feudal lords.

 

They know their land is their power, money and their rule. So they use above mentioned things to save their land from going outside their family. If from the first day, Islamic law was implemented , than Pakistan will be now definately out of this feudal crap system. You heard in the stories about some sick rapes occured in Pakistan, why? due to this power of feudal system.

 

In Islam, one has to distribute his wealth among children properly. He cannot even kick any of his children out from his part of wealth, father cannot do this under Islamic law. Once he is born, now he/she has his/her part in your wealth,land every thing. A perfect thing against these feudal system and capitlist ideology. It makes sure that wealth flow downwards , and wealth should not be concentreted into few hands. But these feudal lords don't want this, they don't want Islamic laws to be implemented for the sake of their power.

 

You know, a feudal lord has his own inherited propert and there is another large piece of land reserved for feudal lord that is under control of current ruler. this land is not distributed, and transferred automatically to next one.. Will this crap system can ever end feudal system? Under Islam such land will be immediately distributed among poor farmers, there is no such stupid thing under Islam.

 

So the answer is sick feudal lords sirtting in our parliment never want these Islamic laws to be implemented that threat their power and wealth.

Edited by iftikharalam

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Salaam,

 

Wow, sorry, I mean no disrespect by I hear feudal and I think medieval. Unfortuntately, given the detail you've provided over the transfer of land I think the analogy stands...

 

Ok, next question then. If the feudal system of land/politics/government is the cause of these problems, without the aid of say, the black death to kill 50% population, how do you breakdown a feudal system without causing violence or more disharmony and upset?

 

Peace and Love,

 

DARLA

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Assalamu alaykum

 

Let the slaves of the west give me the definitions of the following terms in their countries.

 

1.Adultery

 

2.rape

 

3.illicit relationship

 

4. extra marital relationship.

 

According to their definitions for the above, there are zero cases of the above offenses in their countries.

 

shukran

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:sl: / Greetings

 

I advise all members, Muslim and non-Muslim, to stop all the name-calling and provoking. Some members have been really close to violating rules 30 and 33. Let this be the first and last warning.

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Assalamu alaykum

 

What is Hudood ordinance? Please read it.

 

Click and read it here.

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yethudoodordinance(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/taqi-usmani-article-english.htm"]What is Hudood ordinace by Justice Taqi Uthmani[/url]

 

This can be verified very easily by doing an analyses of the cases executed under Hudood Ordinance in the last 27 years. Other judges who have been involved in the proceedings are of the same opinion that even when a woman’s character is found doubtful she is not punished; only the man gets punished.

 

Since from the very beginning voices are being raised against Hudood Ordinance that innocent women are being punished because of it, an American Scholar Charles Kennedy got interested and visited Pakistan to conduct a survey of the cases. He analysed all the data related to Hudood Ordinance cases and presented the results in the form of a report which has been published. The results are very much in line with the above mentioned facts. He writes in his report:

 

Women fearing conviction under Section 10(2) frequently bring charges of rape under 10(3) against their alleged partners. The FSC finding no circumstantial evidence to support the latter charge, convict the male accused under section 10(2)….the women is exonerated of any wrongdoing due to reasonable doubt rule.

(Charles Kennedy: The Status of Women in Pakistan in Islamization of Laws page 74)

 

This is what an unbiased non-Muslim scholar who has got no sympathies toward the Hudood Ordinance observed with regard to such women who had actually consented to committing Zina, and then due to the pressure from side of their families, tried to declare their deed as Zina bil Jabr. They were not asked to produce four witnesses, but to furnish circumstantial evidence. On being unable to furnish circumstantial evidence which would give weight to their claim of having been raped, only the male parties were punished, whereas the female parties went unpunished, as no transgression could be proven on their part. Hence there is no such clause in the Hudood Ordinance according to which, if a woman fails to produce four witnesses to support her claim of having been raped, she is to be punished rather than the offender.

 

shukran

Edited by ahamed_sharif

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