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Frank

"your Opinion Doesn't Count"

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Nonsense. He was a scholar and thus entitled to 'make laws' just as all scholars do when they pass judgement on the evidence.

 

If he doesn't base his evidence on authentic Hadiths, his argument is out the window.

 

As I've pointed out, it doesn't get any more clear than the Hadith that I've repeatedly referred to.

 

But of course, for someone like you, it doesn't matter how strong his evidence is. The only thing that matters is that he is the only scholar you've come across who can excuse your attachment to music, in regards to Islam. I'm sure you'd be fond of one who would also try to make adultery lawful.

 

So far, you admire the guy who makes a mockery of Islam in his book The Satanic Verses, and then now you admire one who goes against the prophet's teachings.

 

How...predictable.

 

Salam.

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Despite my ignorance on these matters I feel justified in assuming that a person can't have become head of the most important Islamic university in the world if he was so bad a scholar as to produce a completely worthless fatwah. In which he points out that your Prophet listened to music, BTW.

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Even Sunnipath, which thinks it is banning music, is confused:

 

Conclusion

 

In the light of the above evidences from the Qur’an, sayings of our beloved Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give peace) and texts of the various Fuqaha, the following is the decisive ruling with regards to music:

 

Musical instruments that are solely designed for entertainment are unlawful, with or without singing. However, to play the tambourine (daf) at weddings (and other occasions according to some fuqaha) will be permissible.

 

As far as the songs are concerned, if they consist of anything that is unlawful or they prevent one from the obligatory duties, then they will be unlawful. However, if they are free from the abovementioned things (and they are not accompanied by instruments), then it will be permissible to sing them.

 

And Allah Knows best

 

Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari, UK

 

I know that Sunnipath thinks that all musical instruments except the Daf are "solely designed for entertainment", but Sunnipath is incorrect.

 

It depends a bit on what they mean by "designed for" (ie, the original purpose of the invention of the instrument was entertainment, or the ability of the instrument to be used for entetainment) but basically, other than the kazoo I can't think of any instruments that are solely used for entertainment or which could be proven to be invented solely for entertainment.

 

People whose religion has sadly left them ignorant of music might not know, but I assure you that a great symphony is not "solely for entertainment", nor a great mass, nor a great raga - and so on and on. Playing in a great symphony, mass, raga, etc cannot really be said to be entertainment at all.

 

Yes, a piano can be used for entertainment, but it is definitely not true that a piano can be used "solely for entertainment" Therefore by Sunnipath's logic a piano is a permissable instrument. Ditto every other instruent. Except the kazoo.

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Except the kazoo.

 

Damn, I love the kazoo :sl:

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Start yer own thread, pervert. I would have said 'banjo' but I play the banjo, badly. I'm assured that it isn't even slightly entertaining.

Edited by Frank

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Start yer own thread, pervert. I would have said 'banjo' but I play the banjo, badly. I'm assured that it isn't even slightly entertaining.

 

lol just wanted to say that althou traditionally orchestal is thought when mentioning musical expression, rock can be just as or even more profound (6)

 

I know you like stuff that makes you think, so these are for you Frank :sl:

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetsongmeanings(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/lyric.php?lid=2502"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetsongmeanings(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/lyric.php?lid=2502[/url] --46&2

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetsongmeanings(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/lyric.php?lid=3530822107858590145"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetsongmeanings(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/lyric.php?lid=...822107858590145[/url] --Jambi

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetsongmeanings(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/lyric.php?lid=3530822107858589806"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetsongmeanings(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/lyric.php?lid=...822107858589806[/url] --Vicarious

 

All different themes and brilliant in different regards as well as layered like an onion. Enjoy :sl:

 

Edit: Almost forgot. Aside from sharing very interesting lyrics, this post is highlighting Frank's response that not all music is only for entertainment. Read the lyrics, they go far beyond mere entertainment....

Edited by Isambard

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Off to work, I'll read them later. I totally agree that a lot of 'popular' music is also good/great art, but I'm wary about getting into that argument with people who only think 'MTV' when the word 'music' is mentioned. Safer to talk about something that no sane person coild dispute, such as the purity of intent and the god-revealing qualities of a great mass.

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Yes, a piano can be used for entertainment, but it is definitely not true that a piano can be used "solely for entertainment" Therefore by Sunnipath's logic a piano is a permissable instrument. Ditto every other instruent. Except the kazoo.

 

You've taken it out of context, you should view this as a whole with the other article. But this is excactly what we are trying to tell you, you have to look at all the evidence and then decide.

 

Save us some time by answering this question. Are you only willing to look at the evidence which supports your thesis and not at the evidence which refutes it?

Edited by Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz

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Even Sunnipath, which thinks it is banning music, is confused:

I know that Sunnipath thinks that all musical instruments except the Daf are "solely designed for entertainment", but Sunnipath is incorrect.

 

Considering you said you were ignorant on such matters, it's a bit presumptous of you to say that sunnipath is incorrect.

 

And no, Sunnipath is not confused. It says that music is unlawful, except for occassions such as weddings and religious celebrations. There ARE Hadith that mention certain instruments that were played on certain occasions. For example, the drums were beaten on weddings.

 

During Umar's rule, whenever he heard drums he would send someone to investigate and find out if there's a wedding taking place. And remember, Umar was not only a companion of the prophet, he was one of the best of the companions and was also one of the 4 caliphs to rule after the prophet's death.

 

Ali ibn Talib (Allah be pleased with him) reports that the blessed Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) said: When my Ummah begin doing fifteen things, they will be inflicted with tribulations, and (from those 15 things He said): When female singers and musical instruments become common [At-Tirmidhi]

 

Despite my ignorance on these matters I feel justified in assuming that a person can't have become head of the most important Islamic university in the world if he was so bad a scholar as to produce a completely worthless fatwah. In which he points out that your Prophet listened to music, BTW.

 

May I point out that he also considered the Twelver Shi'asm to be legitimate, and introduced it to the university? And may I also add that this is a concept that has no place whatsoever in the sunnah of the prophet. It was a concept that began in one of the Empires of Islam in Persia, the name escapes me at the moment. They more or less reject the teachings and the words of Abu Bakr, Uthman, and Umar, three people that were promised paradise by Allah while the prophet Muhammad was alive. I don't want to say more on the issue, because it is probably one of those touchy subjects.

 

To make my point, I will once again mention that all four imams, Shafi'i, Hanbali, Hanafi, and Maliki, all agree that based on the Hadiths that were compiled by Bukhari and other legitimate sources and on the Qur'an itself, music is forbidden. And if you think that Mahmud Shaltut's position as head of a university is something, compare that to Umar Bin Qatab's position as head of the Islamic Empire. He forbad the playing of musical instruments except on specific occassions, which was for the purpose of announcing the occassions.

 

Salam.

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You've taken it out of context, you should view this as a whole with the other article.

 

Actually, I haven't taken it out of context. What I posted was Sunnipath's 'Conclusion' in its entirety. I'm quite happy for Sunnipath to do the hard work of weighing the evidence for me. It's the conclusion they reach which is interesting. And that is, quite simply:

 

Musical instruments that are solely designed for entertainment are unlawful

 

Therefore musical instruments which are not solely designed for entertainment are not necessarily unlawful. For most non-fanatical Muslims that's surely good enough to sign up the kids for piano lessons.

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Musical instruments that are solely designed for entertainment are unlawful

 

Yes, you took that one out of context. Plus, you aren't willing to view all the evidence together, you'll take one single statement over a detailed ruling, so there is no need to discuss this afair further with you. You'll only take one view, which can be interpreted both ways, but you'll ignore the rest of the heavy evidence. You should've just answered that you are not willing to look at the other side.

 

The relied upon position in the Hanafi school, as well as the other 3 madhhabs, is that musical instruments (besides the daff) are impermissible. While there is some difference of opinion, including that of some notable fuqaha, one should remain within what is relied upon.

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_qa.sunnipath(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=686&CATE=115"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_qa.sunnipath(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/issue_view.asp?HD=...86&CATE=115[/url]

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Therefore musical instruments which are not solely designed for entertainment are not necessarily unlawful. For most non-fanatical Muslims that's surely good enough to sign up the kids for piano lessons.

 

Obviously since you're such a great scholar of Islam, perhaps you could produce your own fatwa. Since all of us Muslims following the sunnah are fanatics and those who are closest to your atheist's view on reality are "non-fanatical".

 

So what do you base your conclusion on? That children should spend their childhood enjoying the piano JUST in case it will ever serve a use that is not for entertainment? That parents should waste money on piano lessons JUST in case their children ever play at weddings or celebrations in the future? Sorry to burst your bubble there, but why not read this Hadith?

The Two Festivals (Eids) - Narrated Aisha: Abu Bakr came to my house while two small Ansari girls were singing beside me the stories of the Ansar concerning the Day of Buath. And they were not singers. Abu Bakr said protestingly, "Musical instruments of Satan in the house of Allah's Apostle !" It happened on the 'Id day and Allah's Apostle said, "O Abu Bakr! There is an 'Id for every nation and this is our 'Id." [Volume 7, Book 69, Number 494v]

 

All interpretors of this Hadith note that the girls were allowed to play for three reasons:

 

1) The two girls were not professional singers. Meaning, they did not take singing classes.

2) It was on a religious holiday.

3) They were singing on matters of religion.

 

Taking piano lessons would mean that children would be learning to play the piano as a profession. It would also mean that they would have to play the piano at times that it was not allowed.

 

Salam.

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The piano is forbidden:

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_qa.sunnipath(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=4467&CATE=142"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_qa.sunnipath(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/issue_view.asp?HD=...67&CATE=142[/url]

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