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The Protocols Of Zion - بروتوكولات حكماء صهيون

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I'm sure it is no loss he would notice.

 

You are from Indonesia, but how did you come into contact with this situation, which though it has to deal with Muslim issues, it seems it is rather far removed from your current location. How do you get most of your information regarding Zionism?

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PropellerAds

That's a good question, seacow.

 

Actually three or four years ago, honestly I never really cared about Holocaust. For me it's just a reality of life. Jews got mistreated, and it is called Holocaust and that's all. The first time I learned that some people denied Holocaust, I had no idea why did they have to do that. That just sounded strange to me. As the time passes by, I encountered more people like wirespeed ... he is everywhere ... TV, media, Internet and etc. So, naturally I got to listen to them. So there I was, listening to all the defense, screams, rage and fury, rhetorics, hysterics. You name it.

 

And ....

 

Wassalam,

Y

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That's a good question, seacow.

 

Actually three or four years ago, honestly I never really cared about Holocaust. For me it's just a reality of life. Jews got mistreated, and it is called Holocaust and that's all. The first time I learned that some people denied Holocaust, I had no idea why did they have to do that. That just sounded strange to me. As the time passes by, I encountered more people like wirespeed ... he is everywhere ... TV, media, Internet and etc. So, naturally I got to listen to them. So there I was, listening to all the defense, screams, rage and fury, rhetorics, hysterics. You name it.

 

And ....

 

Wassalam,

Y

So it was the occasionally irrational and overly fervent defense of the holocaust that led you to question its authenticity?

 

irony

 

Does your view represent a minority in the community you live in? (assuming you are in the camp of those who doubt the extent of the holocaust as portrayed in the general media, and by your community I mean Indonesian Muslims)

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You got your adrenalin rush again, wirespeed.

That's it. Even though the concept of God is a fairy tale for the Atheists, but they still debate it vigorously, rather than shrug their shoulder off and move on.

 

Wassalam,

Y

 

 

Atheism , and /or belief in God or a god , are matters of opinion, thoroughly recorded historical events are not .

 

It is not a matter of opinion whether the Protocols is a real document ...it is not .

 

Nor is it a matter of opinion that an intentional genocidecalled "the holocaust " was directed , and executed by the nazi regime , specifically against the jews . Yes others did suffer during WW 2 , in fact 55 million did in fact die. But 6 million of that number died for no other reason than their ethnicity [being jewish ] . And these were summarily executed in a number of barbaric and inhuman ways , to the very point of questioning the humanity itself of the perpetrators .

It does not overshadow the total casualties of the War , but it does stand alone as a genocide , no different from the genocide perpetrated against the Armenians , which is where the very term "genocide " originated from originated .

 

The numbers and methods , the proofs , crematoria and camps , the thousands of witnesses and video evidence , stand , as they have stood for 60 or so years .

 

So what is it as proof , do you present , other thgan opinion , that these things did not occur ?

 

Do you think because you can find a website , where the OPINIONS of holocaust deniers are held up as truths , will validate your argument ?

 

You say you are annoyed that you "had to listen "to what ? ....the "defense " , "rage " , "screams " , rhetoric and hysterics ?

 

 

Oh poor Yasnov , pity you , now you know what the rest of the world hears from your group , lol....just listen to ranting rhetoric f your buddy ###### .

 

 

But keep in mind , there'd be no ruckus regarding the holocaust , if there was not people like yourself denying it happened , and peopole likeyou holding up the protocols as a true document .

 

And just loook at the legnths YOU and your asociaites on this board and thread have gone to defend what the whole entire world KNOWS ,and has KNOWN , to be a totally false document . The world KNOWS who wrote and why , The whole world knows when and where , ands all the circumstances surrounding this fraudulent document , yet look at HOW you people cling to it as an "anthem " , an "affirmation " for all your fears and complaints !!!

 

I find this peculiar , in the highest degree , for it matters not,that you cling to a known falsehood to affirm your views ????

 

I do however understand your 'method " or mechanism , for one to support the other , for belief of the protocols , infers a world wide conspiracy , and that conspiracy no doubt , includes the "holocaust ' , one is used to validate the other in a ridiculous circular argument based on a lie at each end .

 

My guess is that you choose not to see this either , and you most likely have no problem with that .

 

The greater reality here , is that you've embraced known falsehoods and attempt to "pose " them as logical arguments , when in truth , your " logic " left the tracks and derailed , the moment you made your first false claims .

 

But goodluck with your ...erm .... uh ....."arguments " with sea-cow , I 'm sure it will provide further entertainment , but unfortunately , no truth .....at least that is , coming from your part .

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You see, seacow, it's the disproportional reaction shown by lightspeed above, along with the reactions shown by the govts who are bothered to remember Holocaust (but not the other holocausts), or their extreme reactions in putting in jail those who question holocaust, in part, led me to learn more bout the universally accepted "fact".

 

And the rest is history ...

 

Wassalam,

Y

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It is not a matter of opinion whether the Protocols is a real document ...it is not .

 

The Zionist Protocols are real for they reflect what the Zionists have achieved through out history.

 

Nor is it a matter of opinion that an intentional genocidecalled "the holocaust " was directed , and executed by the nazi regime , specifically against the jews . Yes others did suffer during WW 2 , in fact 55 million did in fact die. But 6 million of that number died for no other reason than their ethnicity [being jewish ] . And these were summarily executed in a number of barbaric and inhuman ways , to the very point of questioning the humanity itself of the perpetrators .

 

So you think the lives of the Jews are more important than the lives of the non-Jews who also died in the Nazi concentration camps. Zionists and their supporters, who are the ignorant Goyims, exaggerate the deaths of Jews while ignoring the deaths of other millions of non-Jews in the Nazi concentration camps. Polish died for being Polish and Russians for being Russians in the Nazi concentration camps. Why don't you expose the number of Germans who died in the Russian concentration camps? Why don't you tell us how the Russians, Americans etc raped and/or murdered so many German girls and women at the end of the Second World War? Why were the death of the Jews more important than the deaths of non-Jews? Zionists are selfish! Holocaust is being used by Zionists as a Zionist propaganda to trick the world into supporting Zionist terrorism against non-Jews in the Middle East.

 

It does not overshadow the total casualties of the War , but it does stand alone as a genocide , no different from the genocide perpetrated against the Armenians , which is where the very term "genocide " originated from originated .

 

Why don't you tell us how the Armenians cooperated with the Russians and terrorized and massacred Muslims in the Ottoman Empire during the 1st World War? Are the deaths of Muslims by Armenians and Russia not a genocide to you? You are biased!

 

The numbers and methods , the proofs , crematoria and camps , the thousands of witnesses and video evidence , stand , as they have stood for 60 or so years .

 

Where are your evidence? I will be glad to refute your allegations.

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LOL....disproportionate Yasnov ? tell me how much of a true fact is "disproportionate " ???

 

I must say Yasnov , your "pronouncements " are something the likes of which I have never encountered in any sane conversation or discussion .

 

You would try to argue that India borders France , and thus defend your position by claiming "the right " to "dispute facts "

.......and thus your opponents insistance that you are obviously and undeniably WRONG , is seen by you as ...."a disproportionate response " //

 

 

HA-HA-HA-HA , Yasnov , I dont know who taught you your ways , but they did you no favor , Have fun , you are beyond immature and uneducated , and I wish the sea-cow all the luck in attempting to "untwist " your contorted rationals ....lol....which are in fact IRRATIONAL.

 

 

At the end of the day Yasnov , for all your wqeaseling and lieing , and just plain B.S.ing , the holocaust is real , it happened , just the way the whole REST OF THE WORLD KNOWS IT TO BE , except of course disgruntled muslims like you and ###### ,and Sudden who feel cheated out of your fair share of sympathy , which by the way you will never attain , because you base your case in lies , like the ones you perpetrate here .

 

Sorry yasnov , people are just not as stupid as YOU were taught they might be .

But hey ###### will buy what your selling , and no doubt "the sea-cow " will be kind to you .

 

Knock yourselves out , and hope you dont encounter too much ....lol....."disproportionate truth " lol....as i can well imagine , must be quite painful .

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Atheism , and /or belief in God or a god , are matters of opinion, thoroughly recorded historical events are not .

It is not a matter of opinion whether the Protocols is a real document ...it is not .

Nor is it a matter of opinion that an intentional genocidecalled "the holocaust " was directed , and executed by the nazi regime , specifically against the jews .

As you still don't get it I'll repeat: For atheists, the concept of a God is just a fairy tale, a myth. But still they are trying to debate it vigorously with theists. Or it's like you who keeps saying that I was lying, but still you are bothered to reply to all my posts. Perhaps you need a hobby?

 

On the other hand, your holocaust is an event. The holocaust proponents claim that they have evidence. So here I am. If you have evidence about gas chamber, show me. If you have evidence about the 6 million death, show me.

 

Yes others did suffer during WW 2 , in fact 55 million did in fact die. But 6 million of that number died for no other reason than their ethnicity [being jewish ] . And these were summarily executed in a number of barbaric and inhuman ways , to the very point of questioning the humanity itself of the perpetrators .

What made it different from the Bosnian genocide?

 

Wassalam,

Y

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Even when he talks about it explicitly, I am sure you'll have one million excuse to tell me that it doesn't mean what it means.

 

Yasnov isn't necessarily saying that Hezl said it, he has touble with Engloish tenses, in this case the conditional. What he means here is (I think):

 

Even if he talked about it explicitly, I am sure you would have ...

 

 

Yasnov's English can cause other less obvious problems. There might have been other genocides, but note that the definition of 'genocide' has been watered down since the Holocaust. Originally it mean 'an attempt to eliminate an entire race' (gene-o-cide), now it "merely" means large-scale murder of a distinct group of people.

 

Yes, the mass killing of Bosnians was an abomonation, yes, it should be remembered, no it was not attempted genocide in the original sense.

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You see, seacow, it's the disproportional reaction shown by lightspeed above, along with the reactions shown by the govts who are bothered to remember Holocaust (but not the other holocausts), or their extreme reactions in putting in jail those who question holocaust, in part, led me to learn more bout the universally accepted "fact".

 

And the rest is history ...

 

Wassalam,

Y

I agree, and it is depressing to see someone who believes in the holocaust behaving so irrationally in defense of it, as if just by sheer support he expects to change minds.

 

There have been other instances of mass murder larger than the holocaust (such as those done under Soviet Russia) but none so strong against only one group of people, and none perpetrated by a country that was a universal enemy at the time (Germany)

 

However I am hoping that just because some individuals who do not think rationally believe in the holocaust, you do not think the entire thing is wrong.

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Yasnov isn't necessarily saying that Hezl said it, he has touble with Engloish tenses, in this case the conditional. What he means here is (I think):

 

Even if he talked about it explicitly, I am sure you would have ...

Thanks, Repeater. When all else fail, it seems wirespeed now starts taking advantage of my English as a second language.

 

Yasnov's English can cause other less obvious problems. There might have been other genocides, but note that the definition of 'genocide' has been watered down since the Holocaust. Originally it mean 'an attempt to eliminate an entire race' (gene-o-cide), now it "merely" means large-scale murder of a distinct group of people.

So?

 

Yes, the mass killing of Bosnians was an abomonation, yes, it should be remembered, no it was not attempted genocide in the original sense.

What about ethnic cleansing? Bosnian mass killing is not a deliberate ethnic cleansing?

 

There have been other instances of mass murder larger than the holocaust (such as those done under Soviet Russia) but none so strong against only one group of people, and none perpetrated by a country that was a universal enemy at the time (Germany)

What about gypsies? Don't they count?

 

However I am hoping that just because some individuals who do not think rationally believe in the holocaust, you do not think the entire thing is wrong.

Nope, of course not. I don't deny that Jews got mistreated at that time. But so did everybody else ... example: the gypsies. Furthermore, what I disagreed is the details of the Holocaust, such as the number of Jews died, the existence of gas chambers and many others.

 

Wassalam,

Y

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Egads Cow of the Sea , I think you've contracted Yasnov's irrationality !

 

No one seeks to change minds ....Yasnovs mind is UNCHANGEABLE ....or haven't you noticed ?

 

I seek to expiate the truth regarding an historical event . An event widely accepted , thoroughly recorded and duly witnessed . An event that cannot be denied , nor minimized in any way .

 

I do not "believe in the holocuast " in the sense one would "believe in God " or as yasnov's terrible analogy , the Atheist 'who does not " .....it is not a question of what I desire to believe , or choose to believe .I do not choose to believe the nazis invaded Poland , ....they simply did , my opinion as to the actuality of that event is irrelevant .

 

As I said yasnov , performs an art of deception , he knows well the english language and there is nothing lost in the translation , Yasnov does in fact willfully decieve . Yasnov's word games are in fact true and purposed digressions from truth , and with definitive agenda and objective .

 

Repeater affords Yasnov "weasel room " , a way to wiggle out of what he said , and what he truly understood , and truly implied , and that was, that Herzel is alleged by yasnov , through inference or implication or the spoken word , indicated a one world government under the zionists as they are portrayed in another libel , the Protocols .

 

Are you naive repeater ? Or do you attempt to defend yasnov's position ?

 

Either way you come to naught , for yasnov's position is based in fallacy as is his world view . He floats his false statements and depending on reaction , invents word games to deny he made the false statement to begin with .

 

This does work in the case of dupes and useful idiots , but in an intellectual discussion where facts and logi.come into play , Yasnov is left far behind in the dust , of adolescent bullcrap.

To use revisionist lies as a basis for any intelligent discussion , one loses the argument before even opening the mouth .For the premise , from the start is in error .

 

I d not argue with yasnov , to convince him of any greater truth , i simply expose him for what he is .....and THAT is quite obvious .

 

If you guys choose to "shadow box " with yasnov's irrational and deceptive mind , lol...feel free , for you will not reach him by logical conclusion nor deductive reaoning , for his motives are based in bigotry , and WHEN have you EVER met a rational bigot ?

 

LOL....I seek not to convince Yasnov , but simply to expose him , anything else is futile .With yasnov , the facts , the history , and the logic , have already been forever abandoned in his embrace of bigotry .

 

Smarten up lads .

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Egads Cow of the Sea , I think you've contracted Yasnov's irrationality !

Are you naive repeater ? Or do you attempt to defend yasnov's position ?

If you can't even respect your potential allies like seacow and repeater, how will you respect me, lightspeed? No wonder your allies in afghanistan are now grumbling about US attitude ...another issue btw.

 

I do not choose to believe the nazis invaded Poland , ....they simply did , my opinion as to the actuality of that event is irrelevant .

Hoho .. when did I say or imply that the Nazi didn't invade Poland? Strawman argument, Sir ...

 

Wassalam,

Y

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Nope, of course not. I don't deny that Jews got mistreated at that time. But so did everybody else ... example: the gypsies. Furthermore, what I disagreed is the details of the Holocaust, such as the number of Jews died, the existence of gas chambers and many others.

 

Not "everyone else". The Nazis did not have a programme of trying to kill every French person on the planet, for example. NO-ONE denies or forgets the gypsies, the Communists, the homosexuals, the intellectuals who the Nazis murdered. However the systematic attempt to murder all of the Jews of Europe was on a much larger scale, was without any reason whatsoever except moronic racism, and very nearly succeeded. Thank god it didn't.

 

Like it or not, the Jewish Holocaust has beome the symbol of the lowest point that humanity has ever reached. It's vitally important that the Holocaust is remembered and that the lessons are learned.

 

GENUINE academic historians spent a decade or so producing revisionist versions of WWII history. They broadly concluded that the Holocaust happened as had been said by their predecessors.. But at the end of the process a nasty bunch on UNQUALIFIED asorted nutters decided to make names for themselves by starting the Holocaust denial industry. It has NO credibility with real historians.

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Not "everyone else". The Nazis did not have a programme of trying to kill every French person on the planet, for example.

And who had a programme of trying to kill every Jew on the planet again?

 

Like it or not, the Jewish Holocaust has beome the symbol of the lowest point that humanity has ever reached. It's vitally important that the Holocaust is remembered and that the lessons are learned.

A symbol or not, what made the Holocaust different from the Bosnian ethnic cleansing? Or any other holocausts that preceded it? Why made it a symbol? You can commemorate a Holocaust day every year, but it shouldn't specifically refer to all Jews who died at that time, but to all victims who died in all holocausts of the world.

 

Well, actually I don't care whose death is it that you are going to commemorate, it's your choice, but given all the weird things involving Holocaust (people have to go to jail for questioning it etc), I feel we need to discuss the very reason why you are commemorating this one, and not the others. Because you don't have to put people in jail and fine them to show your humanity and solidarity. That's way over the top. You can teach children about history of holocaust in class room without having to require them to visit Auswitzh every year and indoctrinate the young minds with horror stories. Why don't you just teach it the way you are teaching other atrocities in history?

 

However the systematic attempt to murder all of the Jews of Europe was on a much larger scale

What systematic attempts?

 

GENUINE academic historians spent a decade or so producing revisionist versions of WWII history. They broadly concluded that the Holocaust happened as had been said by their predecessors.. But at the end of the process a nasty bunch on UNQUALIFIED asorted nutters decided to make names for themselves by starting the Holocaust denial industry. It has NO credibility with real historians.

All the very first people who questioned Holocaust are well-known mainstream genuine historians. They only became "unqualified assorted nutters" only after they questioned this myth.

 

And NO , of course you didn't say "nazis invaded poland ' ...I did ....it was an analogy , [something you are not very good at ], and now chooseto even lie about that .

Yes, that's an analogy. But I am wondering why you didn't use the 6 million deaths or the gas chambers for your analogy. You used Poland instead. Well, no one here have disputed that Poland was invaded by the Nazis in the first place. Absurd analogy ...

 

Wassalam,

Y

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Yasnov , you like to play dumb ? I believe you have understoood the statements and questions posed ,so why do you play dumb ?

 

Could it be you have no credible or itelligent answer ?

 

I think so , for you answer nothing , and follow a question by simply asking another stupid question , or making another stupid remark .

 

Do you think yourself a clever fellow ? You are not clever , but deceptive in all you say .

 

Is that why you are a "mini moderator " on this forum ?

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A symbol or not, what made the Holocaust different from the Bosnian ethnic cleansing? Or any other holocausts that preceded it?

 

First off it was on a much smaller scale. Second, the ultimate goal of ethnic cleansing is to expel or otherwise remove an ethnic group from an area. The objective of a genocide is to destroy a people entirely. Whereas ethnic cleansing might involve shipping a group out of your country, genocide would prevent that group from leaving the country in order to destroy them. Ethnic cleansing can mimic the means of genocide, but the goals are different.

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Reading over these threads , brings me to a conclusion, that you are engaged in a waste of time .

 

It is part and parcel of the muslim mindset to hold up Protocols as "real " and deny the holocaust ..

 

So there is no "intellectual argument " taking place here . Forget facts , this is ideological , and so it brings to mind a saying I heard from a wise old uncle of mine .......

 

" Dont argue with fools , for any onlooker will not know which of the two of you is the fool "

 

 

With that I'll write you all off .....good riddance . Sorry , but the ignorance here is just a bit overwhelming , and basically responding to it, is a waste of time .

 

 

But for informational purposes only , this forum is a pretty bad example to be set for muslims . Possibly some of you can be atleast that much objective to see it .

 

No matter , your world is not mine , and when yours intrudes intoo mine , that is when the trouble will begin .

 

Don't hurt yourselves kiddies .

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You can commemorate a Holocaust day every year, but it shouldn't specifically refer to all Jews who died at that time, but to all victims who died in all holocausts of the world.

 

Fair enough, but note that there was only one 'Holocaust' - the word is only used to describe the Nazi genocide of WWII. Also, while abominable things have been done to other peoples, I'm not sure that there was ever a plan to deliberately wipe out an entire people.

 

All the very first people who questioned Holocaust are well-known mainstream genuine historians. They only became "unqualified assorted nutters" only after they questioned this myth.

 

You need to be understand this, Yasnov: Revisionism happens in academic history all the time. It involves looking at an event or period and seeing if the accepted version of events is still correct in the light of new evidence or (more often) new ways of thinking about history. That happened with WWII history, including the Holocaust, and no-one had a problem with it. It's what historians DO. It was accepted that the Holocaust happend much as the previously accepted version said. The word 'revisionist' only got a bad name after the normal boring academic job was over, when UNQUALIFIED people took it up. The ONLY 'revisionist' (ie Holocauset-denying) historian with any academic credibility was David Irving, and he was more of a popular historian (that is, he wrote mass-market 'history lite') than an academic.

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The Protocols of Zion - ÈÑæÊæßæáÇÊ ÃßãÇà Õåíæä 123» 5

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In closing ....just a bit of perspective on the section of this Forum titled " EXPOSING ZIONISM " ....which in fact is a misnomer , for looking over the topics and statements , it should be called :

 

 

EXPOSING OUR OWN PARANOIA /THE ZIONIST BOGEYMAN WE ALL FEAR AND HATE .

 

 

goodnight gentlemen .

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I'm not sure that there was ever a plan to deliberately wipe out an entire people.

Who has a plan to deliberately wipe out an entire people? Show me the plan ...

 

You need to be understand this, Yasnov: Revisionism happens in academic history all the time. It involves looking at an event or period and seeing if the accepted version of events is still correct in the light of new evidence or (more often) new ways of thinking about history.

Revisionism is thriving in the US in regards with the "heroism and kindness" of the early Whites and "barbarism" of the "savage" Natives.

 

That happened with WWII history, including the Holocaust, and no-one had a problem with it. It's what historians DO. It was accepted that the Holocaust happend much as the previously accepted version said.

Then, why protect the official version of Holocaust by law? If all the evidence is towards one side then why run away from the discussion about Holocaust like what databurst did? Serious investigations on this complex issue are still taboo in the Western world, and in some countries like France, Canada, Germany and Austria, such investigations are actually banned by law.

 

The word 'revisionist' only got a bad name after the normal boring academic job was over, when UNQUALIFIED people took it up.

Tell me what academic job has been done regarding the Holocaust? Don't make me laugh, please. You can't call the narratives of history promulgated by the state and the elite as academic job. And what do you mean by unqualified?

 

The ONLY 'revisionist' (ie Holocauset-denying) historian with any academic credibility was David Irving, and he was more of a popular historian (that is, he wrote mass-market 'history lite') than an academic.

You'd better go start your research now, and then come back to me. For a start, try to research more about Harry Elmer Barnes.

 

Wassalam,

Y

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With that I'll write you all off .....good riddance . Sorry , but the ignorance here is just a bit overwhelming , and basically responding to it, is a waste of time .

Bye, outb ... err databurst ...

 

Wassalam,

Y

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You'd better go start your research now, and then come back to me. For a start, try to research more about Harry Elmer Barnes.

LOL..... Oh Please ! Yasnov , you denigrate the word "research " . lol....you are not worthy to even use it in a sentence .

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Yes ,yes Yasnov , I can see how you "gravitated" to Harry Elmer Barnes , lol....a revisionist , a holocaust denier , was aaginst FDR's "New Deal " , and also against America's entry into the War with Germany ....hahahahaha........

PRECISELY , your kinda guy .

 

Tell me , "how did you research " old Harry ???

 

Let me guess .....Google + search +...holocaust denial .

 

 

Great "research " Yasnov , see what I meant by that last statement ?

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Databurst, perhaps you can start your own research with David Hoggan ...

 

Wassalam,

Y

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