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Duffman_

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1. This is truly a ridiculous sentiment to hold that many in this thread are passing off as the basis for their belief in Islam. 2. ..The fact that they were born into a Muslim household in the first place was then simply a cosmic coincidence.

 

1. You find this ridiculous cuz you are not willing to understand the importance of transition that takes a person from unbelief to belief, from programmed practice to, self programming practice. Its strange that you behave exactly in this manner and criticize those muslims to too behave in this manner. Rejecting a viewpoin and believing it to be ridiculous.

2. I felt we agreed that the transition part in one's life (towards faith/belief) is an essential phenomena. So i suggest we tackle this First part of our discussion again.

 

because "I already know that the Quran is the final word of God, so it would be redundant to reaffirm this." Many probably have never the Quran, but they know it to be authentic and true.

Again its the transition pahse here which then goes to the evaluation . Abu Bakr who was a pagan when hears the Words uttered by Muhammed sal allahu alayhi wasallam, believe in what Muahmmed says. No family here just 'The Quran' the speech of GOD. Hamza Yusuf hears it investigates it and believes. No family here to. I re read it investigate it (no family here to). WE ALL KNOW THE QURAN IS THE FINAL WORD OF GOD. without the effect of our families or any coincidence.

I suggest that we discuss this aspect first. Because then we shall enter into investigating and evaluating these words to confirm if they ar e from GOD.

 

Both. You need to lose the veneer of spiritual immunity to even allow yourself the forsight to see the technical flaws

You say you prayed 'mostly' 5 times. You did not speak about your fajar prayers which i asked specifically, You did not comment about my question " have you studied Soofyan At Thauree, Imam Malik etc. Did you investigate the differences between the legal rulings of Abu Hanifa and Ash Shaf'ai or The rulings of Imad and Ata'. Have you studied the Explanation of the Quran and the differences in the opinions and source of the authors of Tafseer ?

 

If yes then please put them here and we shall discuss insha allaah we if have the ability. If not then what spirituality are you talking abdout and what technicalities are you referring to ?

 

If you believe, first and foremost, that God exists and more importantly, that YOUR God exists,

Strange !!! that you say this. If you have read the Quran back to back such that you can find faults in it. Then how come you make such a comment. In the Quran its says "your god and my god are one." The Quran never gave the people a new God. It only confirms the presence of ONE GOD. The pagans believed this but said the idols are a means of reaching 'GOD'. Some Christians perhaps say the same they believe in 'ONE GOD' however Jesus is the means to the 'GOD'. So its never about 'MY GOD' Its always about whats the truth. 100 gods, 3 gods , 1 god and 2 godlike or God everywhere from trees to my hair. And to all this the QUran says "Qul hu Allaah hu Ahad, Allaahus samad, Lam Yalid Wa Lam U Ladh, wa lam Ya Qul lahu Qufuwan Ahad"

 

Science exists to prove and provide theory to formerly inexplainable phenomena, not to ensure its own existence. ............ Whereas people who saw the sun had no way of explaining asked "who is making this happen" and found theories to explain it we can now explain how/why it happens.

Science revels something that is 'already present' is it not ?

While religion speaks about who made it 'already present'.

So does science speak about "who is making this happen' apart from saying a "big boom" happened. even if thats true then where did the elements of the bog boom come from. I mean who made that happen ? Speaking about technicalities. This peraps is the third part of the discussion, Science and God.

Lets not diverge again, though i am too responsible here. Our first part of discussion should be the importance of the Transition that a person goes through to believe what he believes. And we shall use me, you and other person about whoom we can speak about and not a generalized 'muslims'

 

 

 

Oral tradition implies that there is no way of verifying the authenticity of what is being relayed

Subhan Allaah. I wish you would have thought about this a bit. Like if someone was to teach my kids the poem 'Twinkle twinkle star" My mom (generation one) taught me (generation two) i have heard my nephew (generation three)relate this without having read it (3 yrs old). I hardly remember having read this from a book mostly it was teaching and repeating to each other. Anyways, by such oral tradition you mean you can claim that this poem is a false concotion and that my mom never taught anything like this. So be with the song 'Happy birthday to you' or 'Jingle bells' which i heard in school in India and i reasonable think i will hear the same in UK, USA, Australia, and perhaps Russia.

 

By the way how many songs do you remember of which you never wrote down a word yet you can orally transmit it to your kids and perhaps they can transmit it to theirs and this goes on. I definately remember one which i dad used to hymn.

This oral tradition is from the second part of the Discussion, which will insha allaah evaluate the scripture and its validity.

 

Since you insist. I prayed mostly 5 times a day. Read the Quran, hadith, shariah in English and Urdu. Don't remember who translated it but I see no point in even asking that question.

What does mostly mean ? How about Fajar.

You read the Quran, Hadith and the Sharia (Law). All in passing reference or an in depth study like how we study Medicine or Physcology ?

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PropellerAds

peace all, may i weigh in again?

 

my own experience was thus: as a small child, i was sent to 'sunday school' (catholic, as it happens). What do i remember of this? Singing songs mostly, probably with a few stories thrown in, and most of all organising with my friends how to trick whichever poor boob had the guitar/'adult' responsibility so the rest of us could escape while he was occupied. :sl:

 

slightly older, and i was given some christian books to read, stories from the bible etc. Interesting stories, i remember the story of samson made a big impression. Some questions popped up, but i will imagine pretty trivial stuff.

 

later i discovered dinosaurs, and science books. My questions became stronger, however i no longer went to catholic sunday school as my life circumstances had changed. But now science, with its solid explanations made far more sense than the wishy-washy christian stuff, which seemed far more like fantasy now, fiction for children to believe in.

 

science told me that water and steam were the same 'stuff', except with more energy added to make steam. This i could verify personally every time i watched the kettle, or a pan of water boiling.

 

so soon enough, in my early-mid teens, i decided that religion was a crock of sh*t, and science was entirely correct in its rejection of God.

 

later on, a few years or so, i grew up some more, and realised that the religious stories, whilst being an essential part of a specific belief system, were not the REAL message of religion, which was to find the 'moral rules' of the universe (although i wouldnt have put it in those terms, more that i started to realise the lack of a spirituality, of any form of meaning, in materialist science.).

 

yet i did not 'reject' materialist science *in its own sphere* - i could still watch that kettle boil, after all.

 

but slowly i began to see the moral order of the universe as well as the physical order, i noticed that some people were clearly good, and that people respected them out of love, i also noticed some other people who were not good also got respect, but not out of love.

 

as the years passed, i noticed these 'moral rules' more and more, i saw the situations they worked in, and the situations they didn't. I saw the people who abused those loving people, i saw the people who stood up to the bad people, i listened to the stories of both, i also (like any good scientist) observed my own interactions with people. Patterns emerged.

 

later on still, i discovered that branch of physics known as Quantum Mechanics, and some of its possible theories, and learned that even science was now rejecting the exclusive nature of materialism, and that in fact science did not, indeed could not, reject the existence of super-consciousness.

 

and i also studied social science, and learned that these patterns i had observed were actually also a science, a quite nascent science to be sure, yet many elements were there already for a scientific morality.

 

then i put it all together, and realised that these social patterns were as strong as material patterns, that they led inexorably to the conclusion the core of the universe IS morality, that THIS is the core of all religion, not those stories about long-haired men having their hair cut of by scheming harlots, or people being nailed to crosses, or cr*p about 'Chosen People' etc etc, and thus my spirituality, religion and science all came together.

 

it also meant i was a walking target for every priesthood that believes they should control this planet, but thats OK, as theyre also MY target.

 

later on, i am now discovering just how strong a force those religious stories are, and how they push people into certain beliefs, and also just how incredibly powerful such beliefs can be, and what they can achieve. And i am once again having to question my own core beliefs about what is possible, and what is not possible.

 

through every level, i felt sure that *now* i knew 'The Truth', and could deride the previous beliefs as silly, or infantile - yet so often i found later on that there WAS a kernel of truth hidden within what i had previously accepted and then rejected, and although some things are indeed plainly stupid, such a realisation has made me less quick to judge on such matters.

 

how many have taken a path such as mine? Not that many, not enough and thats for sure, but what i am getting at is this: the moral core of the universe is such that people will often agree on the absolute basics, but disagree strongly on the higher beleifs, generally because of some largely inconsequential story attached, the specific explanation of their particular religion. There is as little point arguing over this, as there is arguing with a german whether the correct term for a dog is "dog", or "hund".

 

what is *truly* important, is finding these moral rules between us, and discussing them to discover the Truths that all (or most) can accept, THIS is how we show our respect to God, and when we act in conformity to them, that is how we show our love for God.

 

and that is also fully in accordance with both science, and indeed atheism.

 

 

sorry for the essay,

 

peace and love. :sl:

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Sounds good guneo. My intellect is way to low to write such words or even think so deep.

But you !! man i have faith in you. You have a lot to teach and share. I wonder if we ever meet in real.

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Yes, I agree. That was a great post to read and I can totally relate to the "journey" that you speak of. Its frightening how similar your description of it is to how I would describe mine. Especially this part;

 

through every level, i felt sure that *now* i knew 'The Truth', and could deride the previous beliefs as silly, or infantile - yet so often i found later on that there WAS a kernel of truth hidden within what i had previously accepted and then rejected,

 

Your view of the universe is markedly more whimsical and sentimental than mine, as at the core, I'm a dyed in the wool nihlist. Hence I disagree with much of your post but we see eye to eye on alot.

 

Student; my replies to your arguments will be written shortly, when I have the time.

Edited by MajidM

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I have always felt uncomfortable in these dialogues with people who claim they don't believe.

It gives them the space to insult and transgress on Allah.

Majid, it is unfortunate that there remains a doubt within you lingering on the truth of what you had previously believed, and you do not revisit it.

Allah is there, in our denial of Him, we are taking His mercy for granted. If a great misfortune would befall you, it would be force you to acknowledge.

There is nothing to prove to you in this correspondence.

The answer lies with you.

you already know what you believe in. But you don’t take the time to look within. Therefore you suffer.

You suffer from the hardness of heart. and your biggest suffering is to deny yourself the proximity to Allah.

Such is a place I do not envy you for, you must have had it harsh to restrict yourself like that.

 

Belief is not a matter of that takes convincing, that is why Allah told His prophet that his duty was to transmit the message for he was only a messenger.

You know the message.

Why did you come here?

looking to be convinced?

 

if so, then seek Allah's help, contemplate, take time alone to think of the creations, take time to acknowledge your surroundings. Assume a different attitude, ask constructive questions. Drop the defense.

The harshness that you adopt and the 'sentimentality' you rob yourself of is your choice, reinstating emotional acknowledgment is acknowledging your own humanity.

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Honest and wonderful words you said seeking. Honestly its ironic that i find your and geunoes post strikingly wonderful.

 

he said so much in so few and you kinda spark a contemplation to that one para which he said and majid agrees. Truely the words. " we have sent this for those who comtemplate"

We have sent this to those who understand. we have sent this to those who humble themselves.

 

amazing.

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Well said, sister seeking. Jazakallah khair.

 

Salam.

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thank you for your kind words student ( i do not know if we will physically meet, perhaps you will see me on TV in a yellow jumpsuit at some point however... :sl: ).

 

sister seeking, lovely words, spoken truly.

 

 

peace, and love. :sl:

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thank you for your kind words student ( i do not know if we will physically meet, perhaps you will see me on TV in a yellow jumpsuit at some point however... :sl: ).

 

Jumpsuit ?? yellow?? Firefighter?? Parachutes???? who exactly is a yello jumsuit guy

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God existence is irrelative to evil, religion, humans, stars, and galaxies, God existence is only relative to him, so if anyone say God exists , God is Good hence evil should not exist , first he should understand something , logic is not about the relation between a and b but about the validity of a |- b, so for example assuming a is true and b is a consequence of a then b is true hence evil does not exist , but what’s unsound in this is the relation between a and b , what god existence and goodness have to do with evil , what is also unsound is that you did not establish till now the validity of a or b , this validity is irrelative to logic and this is where errors originate . The same line of rationality could be used on religion …

Religion satisfies need vs Atheism satisfies need both may be true, it comes down to the personal choice made by each person which generates what needs are satisfied but still this does not affect what so ever god existence or the validity of any religion, if we want to philosophy, we could always say that the very nature of human is egoistic and that egoism is good:

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Psychological_egoism"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Psychological_egoism[/url]

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There are always counter theories …

Truth is relative / subjective fine, but then why those who hold this position, which I respect, don’t apply it to what they are saying and insist on generalizing or branding their truth as Objective and final whence their deduction is a consequence of their hypothesis.

A declaration was made that we cannot know on our own whether or not god exist(open to a philosophical debate ) or which one is the right religion , if so , then why not ask for guidance from God ? Test and result.

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student: it was a grim joke, the prisoners at guantanamo bay are forced to wear yellow jumpsuits, and as we all know a 'terrorist' these days is someone who openly criticises the bush regime, a 'crime' i am afraid i cannot honestly deny.

 

as i say, a grim joke.

 

 

peace and love. :sl:

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well a difference of 'opinion' here. I think they wear an orange jumpsuit.

 

you think we cant debate on this ????

Edited by Student

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oh, OK. I don't watch TV, my bad.

 

 

i guess then it was not only a grim joke, but it was also a flawed one. Are you going to behead me now? :sl: :j:

 

 

peace and love. :sl:

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so you would deny me my 15mins of fame on youtube???

 

why, you selfish brute!! :sl:

 

 

(sorry for the off-topic peeps)

 

 

peace and love.:sl:

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WOW !!!! You amaze me.

 

I thought celebrities would go to weird lengths to achieve some fame. You are kinda going even beyond that length.

 

Yeah its off topic but it seems dead. so i think posting here will keep it active and perhaps make someone read and understand.

 

By the way you never said whats your problem in acknowledging that there is 'One God'. This is kind on the topic !

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Don't take gnuneo too seriously, he's a real joker, that one.

 

Though beheading jokes tend to rub people the wrong way. :sl:

 

Salam.

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