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emel

Is Nothing Sacred?

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It will cast an imposing shadow over Masjid-al Haram and completely dominate the Meccan horizon.

 

IMPOSING ???? So you mean a mall can dominate the Masjid Al Haram? Are you undermining the Masjid al Haram. Do you really feel a mall as tall as the tallest structure in the world can ever dominate the Kaba ??? Is there anything that can undermine it ? Can it ever ever ever become less important to any muslim.

 

Do muslims feel that other muslims will go shopping to Mecca and not for hajj will become a secondary deed. even if it happens Allaahs says he will judge by intention. So there you go.

 

I dont have an opinion. May be the scholars would better explain. But if viewed with the Quran and the Sunnah in pespective. None of you guys have proved its wrong to build malls for shopping. Location or otherwise.

 

You can always say what may go wrong in the mall. Like A perfume shop with pictures of a skimpy clad Kate Moss the junkie who earns Millions. You guys can condem that and speak about that if it is allowed in the mall.

 

Is it not true that Makkan economy has always been trading (buy- sell) especially from the Pilgrims.

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PropellerAds

Yes it has. Trading (buy/sell) is fine. But trading is done by merchants. I doubt those people in the malls are merchants.

 

It's just the idea of having a shopping mall there especially that close just seems wrong. It's not necessarily a "sin" but I certainly don't see any positive things coming from this from an Islamic point of view, and to be honest I only see negative things coming from this. Don't know exactly what but I'm sure we will see. It's just merging Secular things with a place where you go to pretty much make an investement in the next life. I just don't see it being a positive thing, just potentially negative.

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IMPOSING ???? So you mean a mall can dominate the Masjid Al Haram? Are you undermining the Masjid al Haram. Do you really feel a mall as tall as the tallest structure in the world can ever dominate the Kaba ??? Is there anything that can undermine it ? Can it ever ever ever become less important to any muslim.

 

Do muslims feel that other muslims will go shopping to Mecca and not for hajj will become a secondary deed. even if it happens Allaahs says he will judge by intention. So there you go.

 

:sl:

 

Yes it is an imposing eyesore. And please do not take my words so literally brother. I meant that it will structurally dominate the horizon, and I am in no way undermining Masjid Al-Haram, so please do not misinterpret my words.

 

:sl: for understanding.

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:sl:

 

Yes it is an imposing eyesore. And please do not take my words so literally brother. I meant that it will structurally dominate the horizon, and I am in no way undermining Masjid Al-Haram, so please do not misinterpret my words.

:sl: for understanding.

 

I apologize. I was not trying to misinterpret or twist your words. I was only trying to emphasize that there can be no structure in the world that can dominate the Masjid Al Haram. All other structures are physical while the masjid Al Haram has more of a spritual sturcture

 

Actually i too felt sad and surprised when i saw the pictures. But as i began typing i realized. Now wait a minute. What is my basis of rejecting this. My own feelings of how and what should Hajj be like. The Quran clearly mentions all that is allowed and all that is disallowed during the Hajj. Yet i decide to condemn this structure. its strange that i allow my personal feelings to overcome me.

 

Another thing if this was truely what it is (imposing, eyesore etc etc) many of my folks who have been for Hajj (for the first time) and some who have been for the third and the fourth time would have mentioned it. Rather they mentioned the same 'old story' (not meaning it literally) but yet said it with such enthusiasm and pleasure (first timers and the vetrans) about how the masjid looks, the sprit in the air, the people, touching the kaba How much they loved it etc.

 

I also feel we are just talking from our own desire and not froma view point of Quran and Sunnah. I wonder what the scholars have to say about this structure etc.

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:sl:

 

I respect your opinion brother and I can see where you are coming from but I do disagree. I believe that there is space in our religion to allow us to form our own opinions about these things. I have not said that it is Haram or against the Quran and Sunnah and I don't think you see where my criticism is coming from.

 

Anyhow, let's just agree to disagree :sl:

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I aint critisizing you.

 

I am questioning 'our' views of rejecting it. I am saying our views of rejecting it does not stemm from the Laws of the Quran and the Sunnah.

 

I am stressing also that 'our' views dont have a scholars view either.

 

Of course we have the 'space in our religion ' to have our own opinions. But then we must state that to make it look like 'our' opinion.

 

Rather what stems out of 'our' opinion is the distaste of the authorities (muslims), distaste of the traders (muslims) and something to frown upon without having a basis from our 'Laws'. This is essentially what we will teach our children or what they will learn.

Anyways i am out of this discussion. Its not helping me much.

 

Again no hard feelings or critizing anyone here. Just making others think as i was made to think too.

Bye.

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:sl:

 

I know you're not criticizing my opinion, and I welcome the discussion points that you have raised. I know of a few scholars that also disagree with the building of these skyscrapers of luxury. It isn't about disliking the authorities or the traders of Mecca. I have visited the Holy sanctuary and it is the most beautiful and spiritually fulfilling place on this earth. The traders have their place, as do the hotel owners, as does everyone else in Meccan society. My dislike of this building stems from the representation of materialism and excess that it embodies, and its sheer scale. The same goals could have been achieved by building something much more modest and sympathetic to the spiritual heritage of the Hijaz.

Edited by emel

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:sl:

Here is good article about this:

 

More offensive than a bunch of cartoons

 

######you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_zosome.blogsome(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/images/AbrajAlBait.jpg[/img] ######you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_zosome.blogsome(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/images/Ottawaparliament.jpg[/img]

 

Pictures are usually worth more than a thousand words, each!, but let me parse these two for you to make the extra point that the emotion you get from them is not accidental, but rather planned.

On the left is an under-construction photo of the (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetdargroup(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/areasofactivity/projects.cfm?projectid=21&domainid=72&areaid=2"]Development of King Abdul Aziz Endowment:[/url]

 

 

 

The development consists of a large podium topped by seven towers of various heights… The podium includes (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetabrajalbait(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/"]commercial retail center
[/url]
; restaurants and food courts; prayer areas for 3,8000
[sic.]
people and a public plaza which will accommodate a future convention center. It’s topped with a four-level car park… The tallest tower with over 100 floors - a 2,000-room, 5-star hotel - is located on the southern side
facing the Haram … The tower is designed to be the visual focal center
of this mixed-used development and is flanked by the remaining six, lower residential towers … The tower features plaza levels accommodating the reception lobby and information desks, lounges, restaurants, cafeterias, and a ballroom designed for a large, high-end international conference center … The hotel’s typical stories are divided into two sections: residential section at the upper part of the tower and the hotel section at the lower part of the tower. Four Royal floors, VIP Penthouse and a three storey “Astronomy Centre” are located on top of the residential portion of the hotel tower…

and the farce goes on and on; boil more of your blood (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetdargroup(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/areasofactivity/projects.cfm?projectid=21&domainid=72&areaid=2"]here[/url].

Compare this to something like the picture on the right; an aerial photo, facing south, of the Parliament hill in Ottawa, Canada. According to the (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_ottawa.ca/city_services/planningzoning/2020/op/vol_2a/1_4_en.shtml"]City of Ottawa - Official Plan[/url]:

 

1.4.3 Policies

 

d. Primacy of Parliament Hill: City Council recognizes the symbolic primacy and visual integrity of Parliament Hill and supports its preservation and enhancement. In this regard, City Council shall protect the visual integrity and symbolic primacy of the Parliament Buildings and other national symbols, and shall ensure the preservation of the scale of Parliament Square by
promoting an appropriate building profile on the south side
of Wellington Street.

I am sure my Introduction to Architecture professor would be proud that I remembered something from his course. Nevertheless, I wouldn’t mention this to him in a million years, cause I know the mere sight of it would break his heart.

God bless you, Prof. G. H.; May you never come across this atrocity.

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:sl:

 

Nice article 3amou; it depicts my exact sentiments.

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Very shameful[using large font size is not allowed]

Edited by Shameela

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Assalamu Alaikum

 

SubhanAllah!

 

This also reminded me of the signs of the hour hadith, and just a few weeks ago I was reading this article, did you know Dubai now has the tallest building in the world?!

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6910536.stm"]Dubai skyscraper world's tallest[/url]

 

When finished, the skyscraper will have more than 160 floors, 56 elevators, apartments, shops, swimming pools, spas, corporate suites, Italian fashion designer Giorgio Armani's first hotel, and an observation platform on the 124th floor.

 

^ SubhanAllah!

Edited by [email protected]

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alsalamualaikom.

There are several issues in this structure, and several issues about your responses and comments.

About the structure and future structures around the Haram.

1- The ka'baa is surrounded by mountains. It is since the jahiliyya people living in the mountains, looking down at the ka'baa.
2- When Islami graced Makkah, the kufar lived in the mountains, and the mountain that was where the referred structure is now, looking Down on the Ka'bah.
3- To talk about glorifying the Kab'aa through criticizing structure is an escape goat to not glorify it through acts of worship.
4- To maintain holiness through architecture is the method of the christians.
5- The building is needed to provide housing, the more housing around the ka'bah the more competition, and thus less monopoly on prices.
6- The building is there temporarily, until it's land goes in to the expansion phase, as is the case with al-Iman hotel just a few doors down, which does belong to royalty.
7- So the ka'bah will keep expanding, so does that mean we build all of makkah of a max three story buildings so as no to 'visually overpower' the haram. Are you willing to walk for an hour in the sun and heat of saudi to go to the haram as often as you expect coming from a far away place, and having saved up for this trip? Instead you will vouch to stay in you little air-conditioned room that is bound to be in place of a hill or mountain but this time an hour away from the haram.
8- The property around the haram is commercial because when you come for a week and need clothes because your luggage was lost, or you under packed, or no more clean clothes.
9- The property around the haram is commercial because we muslims are humans, and need places to eat.
10- The property around the haram is commercial because it provides alternatives for families where not all of them have the serenity to stay in the haram their whole trip. So let them do a bit of shopping, and then come back.
11- You are a coffee addict, and if you don't get your coffee, or your mother her tea then there is a headache that will obstruct your worship.
12- It is here that you would want to buy your things from, better benefit the muslims, where still there is a restraint on the riba implication to some degree, or at least money generated is more likely to be spent on halal things than haram.
13- The number one motivation behind all of this development, is providing service, comfort, facilities. Even for the private sector.
14- While doing that they should earn money to pay for everything else.
15- It is not only paying customers that benefit from these services.


Now for your comments:

1- Your criticism is on policy and planning, which is a criticism of our government. So according to the rules of enjoining right and forbidding wrong, you should tell them directly, if you can't send them a message through a letter, a well constructed article in a paper they read, or be silent. Not to forget that your niyyah is genuine advise, not mere criticism, and so you have to take in to account how you say it.
2- If you do not abide by the following you are gossiping, eating the flesh of your muslim brother alive, and mind you here is a stronger liability since He who you criticize is wali al'amr, an authority by religion we have to obide to.

Did you not think that fifty years ago when the king destroyed several houses around the ka'bah people did not have all sorts of complaints that could very well be formulated to criticize his religious commitment or criminal act against such 'holly' grounds.
SUch is the difference between a ruler and ordinary man; vision, wisdom, and endurance.
Taking all this chit-chat and still willing to give you a nice place to come to.

Do you not see how the haram and the places around it are cleaned, with millions there and it remains clean. who does that? who planned it? paid for it?
Or that you are in the middle of summer with heat degrees that kills people in europe, yet you walk at noon bare feet on the ground of the haram and it is cool. and most likely you will catch a breeze, in this open space. who helps that happen.

When we want to criticize we have to consider all sides, all aspects. So if one out of ten is not satisfactory, it is for the benefit to hold our tongue.

Do me a favor, let me know where you stay next time you are in makkah, where you eat, where you shop?

And as far as makkah being a commercial space, this is what Allah ordained for it when he answered Ibraheem alaiho alsalam’s prayer that Allah bestows on them His bounties and make many people go there. Now in the middle of the desert, how will you recive things if it wasn’t for trade. And then you have the surah li ilaf quraish. This surah is about the summer and winter journey from makkah once to yemen and once to the North (Syria, Palestine) for trade. Makkah has always been a place of trade as decreed by Allah.

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:sl:

 

I dont see what the big deal is .

 

If the people of the time lets say just 1 cetury after the Sa7aaba Saw Makkah the way it was 100 years ago they might have thought the same way like some members are thinking now .

 

Islam does not change , but Time does , so does construction so does living circumstances .

 

my 2 cents .

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when i was at the Golden Temple at amritsar, punjab (an absolutely peaceful and calm place btw, one of the most spiritual sites i have been to), i was approached by a sikh, who wanted to know if i wished to change money.

 

"Money-changers in the Temple" - as i wryly observed to my teacher (in fact we did later change money with him, as it happens!), everything changes, yet so little changes.

 

 

ayy-yah, what do *i* know? I am not a king or ruler or scholar who understands these things, i am just a penniless teacher making his way in this world.

 

but it feels wrong, to associate gross materialism and profiteering with spirituality and Holiness.

 

 

peace and love.

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when I spoke of the ruler vs. ordinary man, it is not in the measure of spirituality. Rather in making a choice and bearing with its consequences. That even it was good, some party is always furious. That they always here the criticizm, and almost never the praise. Thst they do so much and have no public support.

 

Even if they are not all the way right, it is because we are people of tawheed, that we know no one is always right, or perfect. But we try, always try to do better. That is what I ment. For the case of al-haram development, take all of the accomplishments of the governmen in that fiel, and put next to it, your complaint, you will find it to be nothing.

 

one more thing, if you haven't been here, you can't look at a picture and think you know what you are talking about.

There is a difference between a tall structure, and the ka'ba having hundreds of thousads around it, you don't feel in reality, what you see in the photo.

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Assalamu alaikum, I respect your opinion Salwa and Br. Faqeer, but don't really agree with it. Alhamdulillah everyone has opinions, no doubt, but we have to understand that there has to be some sanctity to the Kaabah. I mean no matter what you build around the kaabah, it is true, no one can decrease the value of the Kaabah.

 

I know times have changed and we are more than 1400 years away from the time of the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wa Sallam, but the Qur'an remains the same and the Ahadeeth remain the same and the Sunnah is the same. We are still supposed to follow the Qur'an if we want to be successful, and we have to follow the Qur'an in the way that RasoolAllah Sallallahu Alaihi Wa Sallam has showed us to.

 

Yes there are more people going for Hajj now a days and they need accomodation, but accomodation overlooking the Kaabah, it might be okay with you, but it is not with many people, and I am sure that many people have written to the authorities responsible for having this complex constructed. Sis. Salwa, what are you talking about backbiting, I don't understand, it is an open issue and there have been complaints directed from many people to the authorities responsible. You might have your reason for appreciating what is happening, but others have their reasons for not appreciating, so please don't get emotional and try to respect other's views. It is the Greatness of Allah that he has made somany different type of mentalities.

 

No one here is complaining about any King or Ameer or anyone, and who is denying that there is no comfort for the pilgrims coming from different parts of the World, But it is not like they come here for free, People living close to Makkah might not realise this as they live so close that most of the people work through their sweat and blood and they pay all of their lives savings to visit the house of Allah at least once in their lifetime, Alhamdulillah, because it is one of the PILLARS OF Islam, not to do business, or enjoy high rise shopping and comfort. They do not come for Hajj through some charity paid by the King or a Prince. Every little thing they use and consume is paid through their pockets, except maybe the meal at Arafat.

 

Allah did not intend the call of Prophet Ibraheem Peace be upon him, to make Makkah into a commercial place, but a place of Worship where People from all over the World will say Labbaik to the call and come and fulfill the rites of Hajj. These Buildings and Hotels are nothing but a distraction. Instead they could have made simple Appartments and gave them at reasonable rent to the Hujjaj no matter what their financial status is.

 

Hajj is supposed to be the place where you do not know the difference between A King and a pauper, can a poor person rent a room in these high rise luxury Hotels. Just hearing of 5 Star Hajj and 4 Star Hajj sounds Makrooh to me. No one has to agree with me, I might think different from others, but I love Allah too, and I love the Sunnah too, and I have a Right to the way I think, so do others.

 

 

Extravagance in Building:[using large font size is not allowed]

And here is a Hadith from Sahih Bukhari:

 

Volume 7, Book 70, Number 576:

Narrated Qais bin Abi Hazim:

 

We went to pay a visit to Khabbab (who was sick) and he had been branded (cauterized) at seven places in his body. He said, "Our companions who died (during the lifetime of the Prophet) left (this world) without having their rewards reduced through enjoying the pleasures of this life, but we have got (so much) wealth that we find no way to spend It except on the construction of buildings Had the Prophet not forbidden us to wish for death, I would have wished for it.' We visited him for the second time while he was building a wall. He said, A Muslim is rewarded (in the Hereafter) for whatever he spends except for something that he spends on building."

 

 

May Allah bless you all and may Allah forgive our sins, ameen.

Assalamu Alaikum, umAhmad.

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:sl:

 

Absolutely agree with aunty umAhmad.

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wa alaikom alsalam wa rahmatu Allah.

 

In my previous response I was acknowledging this struggle and know it, my proximity to makkah does not mean I don't understand the struggle. But precisely because I do I hold that opinion. Sister these shopping centers are full of non saudis, non gulf people. the one's who shop there are not the people staying in the rooms upstairs. and the majority of these shops are food, drink, and necessities.

 

To get these things elsewhere you would need to get a taxi to a 30 min location. That is not what one wants to be doing, going out of their way to shop. And shops have always been next to the haram, there is nothing wrong with that. that is the industry of the people in makkah as Allah subscribed it to them. Actually to give you a better picture, shopping was part of the mas'aa in the safaa and marwah right now. that close to the kabaa! if the shops were not in one place, tall, they would be in many places around the haram, that is how it was before. all around the haram in a circle, and imagine the haram was not as big, the circumference was barely a few yards from the ka'baa. Actually sitting leaning on the ka'ba walla you can see the shops. this was the way things have always been. now it is better because you are not so distracted. Before people used to do much more shopping than they do know, because there were more shops, now these shops had to go further because of expansion, or in to the tall building. when you walked out of the ka'baa you walked in to the market without any streets in between, obstacles, bridges, walkways, just right in to the market.

Edited by salwa

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Salam,

 

I dont think Mekkah should become extremely commercialised as it may be. I dont disagree with business or trade or hotels in the area, but just having the theme of extravagance flowing in such a place...to me, would be undesireble, jsut like anything else that offsets a good atmosphere. But in the whole scheme of things, i guess its nothing compared to other things happening in the world today...i.e. blood spillage

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peace salwa,

 

i accept the points you raise.

 

but i also look at it like this: were *i* to be the ruler/planner, how would *i* do it?

 

and this is how i would reply:

 

i would attempt to 'modernise' the facilities as well (as it seems necessary from what you say), but i would do everything possible to minimise profiteering and unholy behaviour. If there is a lack of accommodation, then i would attempt to make as many affordable, basic accommodation units available possible. If there is a shortage of consumer facilities, then i would build them - but i would make them to be cooperatively owned, by the people who work there, not for the benefit of the ultra-wealthy already. I would make those shopping plazas capitalist partnerships, and i would divide the profits from them 3 ways:

 

1. a third to the employees, to ensure they give the best service, and receive their reward for hard and honest work,

2. a third to improvements to the facilities, so the ever increasing numbers of hajjis can receive better and better facilites,

3. a third to muslim orphanages and charities world-wide, so even the poorest can one day achieve the Hajj.

 

i would also not make them skyscrapers, but would put them back and create low-impact public transport systems to the accommodation units, if the Islamic peoples worldwide would agree to that. (i suspect they would, given that or the bin-laden monstrosity).

 

points 1-3 seem to me to be a FAR better method of dealing with the logistic problems of the modern Hajj, than by allowing the ultra-wealthy to spoon off even more wealth into their disgustingly over-flowing coffers.

 

may i ask your opinion on this?

 

 

peace and love. :sl:

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guneo ?

 

I dont understand why you have your religion as 'other religion'. it is off topic but still. send me a pm if you wish. i write here as i want others to ask you too.

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peace salwa,

 

points 1-3 seem to me to be a FAR better method of dealing with the logistic problems of the modern Hajj, than by allowing the ultra-wealthy to spoon off even more wealth into their disgustingly over-flowing coffers.

 

may i ask your opinion on this?

peace and love. :sl:

 

:sl:

 

One of the best posts on this topic. Thank you for sharing your opinion gnuneo, I hasten to say I agree with much of what you say.

 

With peace.

Edited by emel

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peace student,

 

guneo ?

 

I dont understand why you have your religion as 'other religion'. it is off topic but still. send me a pm if you wish. i write here as i want others to ask you too.

 

LOL, you are the second person to ask me if i am actually muslim, the first was makkko in a number of PMs, however he said so in much less nice ways! :j:

 

i am "other religion", because i AM "other religion". It may come as a shock, but it is not just Muslims who believe in moral behaviour. :sl:

 

 

peace and love. :sl:

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There are two issues at hand; The Arabs, and the current Muslim state.

 

Inshaa Allah you can read my words with openness, and justness.

 

The Arabs

There is much criticism on what the arabs are today, the life they live, the indulgence they entertain. We wait for them to save us. To be better, because they are related to the prophet salla Allah 'alaihi wa sallam. They should be better because they live on the land of the Holy Masjids. They should be better because they can afford it, because they live in Muslim countries.

This indulgence brings them to build such buildings, waste such money, display such luxuries, in the account of spiritual recluse. They are separate from the general muslim body, they are higher, better, etc...

They don't need our support, we only need theirs. The muslims state is at such despair because of them..

 

I believe that if they are slacking, so am I. Not to excuse shortcomings, but to admite the dire state the whole muslim population arab/non arab has become.

 

The Muslims

They too are indulgent, whether they can afford it or not. They indulge in money, materials, gossip, lust, food, sleep, children, in the dunya. They buy what they can't afford, and eye what they don't have. They too are very much arab in the state of lust chasing reductionists. I guess then we are either or arabs, or all muslims too pre-occupied in the dunya. Those who have money are easier to pin down with the crime of gluttony, but those of more restricted income, we would have to search to see it. But it is there, whether it is a sign on their door or not.

 

We think the shopping centers are about luxury, no, they are about capitalism. they are about gluttony. They are about addiction. Behavior that is uncontrollable, but in the light of all the other indulgences, this is the lesser of other evils. This is where a benefit would be where all the other options are more of drawbacks.

 

 

The government cannot buy all the land around the haram. It is too expensive. What it buys, it turns in to public spaces. And those it allows to rise, are temporary. As for their spending, it is by far more than a the income of all the shopping centers of af makkah that goes in to spending for the haram. I think people who have not been to makkah can't really put things in to perspective.

 

There are many complaints about the muslim countries, but the least area that deserve such complaints is the way makkah and madinah are cared for. I have often said that Allah is all Wise, had he put it in to the hands of any other nation at present, they would probably take from it and not give it. Spending on the haram, is an honor, not many share this feeling or understand it. If they did you would see the abondent elm giving in haj coming from people or are non-saudis or non arabs. In fact, this haj i walked around looking observing, and I don't recall any other people making as much effort to accommodate the other as the saudis specifically, and the arabs generally. In fact the others seem more interested in recieving than giving. receiving good treatment, receiving good food, receiving good accommodation. Tell me what do they give.

 

I spend hours in the haram, in season or off season, I don't generally see non-saudi's give. don't tell me because they are away from home, if they feel they have a right to call for spiritual observation, then they have a right over the place. But with rights there are duties. I don't see people who are non-saudis acting out of duty. There is a very small number, and those are like a needle in the haystack. They are the women in black, working for the Masjids. Devoting their time for the service of muslims.

 

Even in ramadan, when we are sat in long continuous lines hundreds of thousands, you sit there and you look around, tell me how many foreigners pass food around, share. In fact it would not even be food they brought, it would be distributed there by Saudis, the saudi government, the saudi people. Yet the muslims act like its their right. Yes someone is taking charity, but there is no humility to Allah for the fortune He gives. Rather than gratitude we are greedy, angry, and resentful. I think when non Saudi start to act like the haram is theirs and so like they take they also give, much of the displeasure would disappear. And many of their requests will be fulfilled.

As for public transport, yes this is an obvious issue that is being studies. If it was that easy they would have done it. The pollution is a large issue that leaving cars out would solve. But to perceive them with the benefit of doubt, then they must know about the problem, are interested in solving it, but can't just yet. Perhaps there are other obstacles. work in progress. As are many things and every year of haj carries tremendous improvements from the year before. That work and progress takes time, money, and most importantly dedication.

 

If you attended this haj you would have not been involved in this discussion. of all the people who wrote here please tell me when is the last time you have been to makkah?

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