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Submission

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I finally watched the Dutch documentary Submission. It was very enlightening. I finally got a first hand view into a woman's life within Islam. :D

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Oh and also, I would have never watched the documentary if the director wasn't killed. It was as a result of his killing that made me and millions of other non Dutch people interested.

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Guest amani

matt

 

 

i am a muslim woman

 

please tell me

 

how am i to be treated?

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Qur’an 4:11 “Allah directs you in regard of your Children’s (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females…. These are settled portions ordained by Allah.�

 

Bukhari:V1B22N28 “The Prophet said: ‘I was shown the Hell Fire and the majority of its dwellers were women who are disbelievers or ungrateful.’ When asked what they were ungrateful for, the Prophet answered, ‘All the favors done for them by their husbands.’�

 

Ishaq:584 “Tell the men with you who have wives: never trust a woman.�

 

Qur’an 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them.�

 

>>>>>>

 

Well, like it says in your scriptures.

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Guest amani

:D

 

regarding inheritence

 

now

in Islam its like this

 

a woman in trouble....she has a father brothers maternal and paternal uncle nephews (if they are capable)

all these people called `mahram` which are people she is forbidden to marry as well as her husband to protect her

 

so a woman gets her inheritence...its all hers..she doesnt have to give to her husband or nobody

 

a man with double inheritence...he gives it to his wife.. (come on women :P )

if his sister or any women under his protection is in need..he helps herout with it

 

so if you look...a woman infact gets loads..but a man?

 

regarding the bukhari hadith you quoted... backbiting and slandering is strictly forbidden in Islam...ever seen a bunch of women together?

what do they like talking about best? gossip gossip gossip..ill admit it :D

 

regarding the ayah on women ..

 

you forgot to quote the ayah after that ...dont worry ill put it up for you..here..

 

15. And those of your women who commit illegal sexual intercourse, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them (i.e. women) to houses until death comes to them or Allâh ordains for them some (other) way.[1]

 

16. And the two persons (man and woman) among you who commit illegal sexual intercourse, hurt them both.[2] And if they repent (promise Allâh that they will never repeat, i.e. commit illegal sexual intercourse and other similar sins) and do righteous good deeds, leave them alone. Surely, Allâh is Ever All-Forgiving (the One Who forgives and accepts repentance), (and He is) Most Merciful.

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I would like to ask a question to this fellow. Do you want to gain knowledge or are you here to argue. We can explain your questions in detail but what is your purpose? For more unbiased knowledge go to this site. It is time to learn about the fastest growing religion and why priests/bishops/preachers are coming to Islam

 

 

"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.islamtomorrow(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/default.asp"]Ex Priest[/url]

 

"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.islamtomorrow(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/definition.asp"]Islam basics[/url]

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:D

 

I find it astounding when people want to 'learn' about Islam, they go to non-muslim 'experts' rather than speaking to an Islamic scholar. :D

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assalaamu alaykum,

 

mashallah sister, that is the way to answer these non-muslims, get the muslimahs to answer them.

 

to the non muslims on here...

if Islam is oppressive to women why do over twice as many women revert to Islam than men in the UK?

 

if Islam is so oppressive then why so many?

and i would also encourage you to go to the reverts stories sections to see for yourself how and why women come to Islam.

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well said sister Amani :D...

 

Matt i suggest next time you try and make a statement come up with something good rather than twisting the Qur'an and the hadith. We have many educated poeple here :D think next time...there were many like you and guess what, they reverted in this forum!! B)

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:D

 

some of you guys may have not seen Matt-E before, but its not his first time here on Gawaher. I remeber when he was around ages ago but got banned i think. all he does is post lies and so on about Islam. he isnt intersted in wanting to know about muslims. just another troll. Some people want to say ignorant and remain hateful about Islam and he's just one of them.

Edited by summer_girl

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Asalamu'alaikum Everyone,

 

Matt-E,

 

Let me say that is unwise and disingenuous to take Scripture “out of context�. Let us all remember this but let us also understand that government of the household as well. Clearly the household “must� be governed.

 

What we have here is guidance; nothing more, nothing less.

 

My wife is the keeper of our household, the raiser of our child and the one who handles all of our money. I trust my wife with my very life and my love for her has no bounds. She is my light and my joy and without her I am less than half of the man I am with her.

 

Barak’Allah to my dear Wife.

 

PS: Matt-E, she is also a devout Christian.

 

Wasalaam.

Edited by little-mahdi

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My wife is the keeper of our household, the raiser of our child and the one who handles all of our money. I trust my wife with my very life and my love for her has no bounds. She is my light and my joy and without her I am less than half of the man I am with her.

 

Barak’Allah to my dear Wife.

 

:D brother

 

thats very lovely what u said and true (mashallah u wife sounds like a great lady) but he dont care. Matt-E is like a brick wall and will proabably contune with postings like his.

 

may Allah guide him.

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:D

 

& peace

 

I personally cant see a muslim girl being oppresssed here in this forum ..can you??

 

YOu only have to post here few times to see how muslim girls are articulate, intelligent, calm, reasonable, inquisitive, assertive and in control are. Pls dont make the mistake of underestimating us.

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Dear All,

 

I'm not standing up for any one party here, or taking sides, but I would like to ask in what ways Matt E has taken the said verses out of context. They seem fairly clear to me. I would also like to ask why you think it is that if you wish to learn more about Islam you should necessarily go to a Muslim. If I want to get an objective opinion on a product then do I go to the person who made it for that opinion, or on occasion would I not be better going to someone who does not have a personal affinity to that product and can objectively criticize it as and when is necessary.

 

All the best.

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I'm not standing up for any one party here, or taking sides, but I would like to ask in what ways Matt E has taken the said verses out of context. They seem fairly clear to me. I would also like to ask why you think it is that if you wish to learn more about Islam you should necessarily go to a Muslim. If I want to get an objective opinion on a product then do I go to the person who made it for that opinion, or on occasion would I not be better going to someone who does not have a personal affinity to that product and can objectively criticize it as and when is necessary.

 

Asalamu'alaikum British Christian,

 

I hope I find you in good spirits this Advent Season as you prepare for the coming of The Christ Jesus.

 

Let me ask if I wished to know how to build a ship, would I do well to seek guidance from one who raises sheep or one who is a shipwright? To seek an expert oppinion, one should go to the experts.

 

With you concern about bias, let me say that it is everywhere, on both sides and one cannot escape it regardless of which direction one seek his answer. If you wish to know how a Muslim lives, I would suggest that you go and live with a Muslim. If that is not possible, then I would suggest you ask a Muslim whom you think is trust worthy. If you don't trust Muslims as trust worthy then it doesn't matter the answer to your question because you are not objective towards them in the first place.

 

Wasalaam

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Dear Little-Mahdi,

 

What a pleasure it is to converse with you again after so long; too long in fact! I thank you also, for your thoughts for me at Christmas time.

 

I of course see where you are coming from regarding the shipwright and the shepherd, but I think that such a comparison cannot be used here, since it assumes that non-muslim scholars and historians researching the life of Mohammed, the origins of the Quran and so on, know nothing about the subject. I of course agree that regarding Muslim lifestyle today, one would be far better to go to a Muslim, but I was referring to Z-247's point that,

 

"I find it astounding when people want to 'learn' about Islam, they go to non-muslim 'experts' rather than speaking to an Islamic scholar."

 

This has clear implcations on an historical front too (please both Z-247 and your good self forgive me if I am mistaken).

 

Also, I certainly do not see Muslims as inhernently untrustworthy - of course I don't! However, I do think that concerning matters Islamic, they will be more biased - quite understandably - than a relatively un-prejudiced non-Muslim who knows what he's on about.

 

I do hope you see where I'm coming from.

 

All the best.

Edited by British Christian

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Dear Little-Mahdi,

 

What a pleasure it is to converse with you again after so long; too long in fact! I thank you also, for your thoughts for me at Christmas time.

 

Asalamu'alaikum British Christian,

 

You are most welcome, friend.

 

I of course see where you are coming from regarding the shipwright and the shepherd, but I think that such a comparison cannot be used here, since it assumes that non-muslim scholars and historians researching the life of Mohammed, the origins of the Quran and so on, know nothing about the subject. I of course agree that regarding Muslim lifestyle today, one would be far better to go to a Muslim, but I was referring to Z-247's point that,

 

"I find it astounding when people want to 'learn' about Islam, they go to non-muslim 'experts' rather than speaking to an Islamic scholar."

 

This has clear implcations on an historical front too (please both Z-247 and your good self forgive me if I am mistaken).

 

Let me say that this is a matter of depth and not bias. Surely the government of the family in the the time of the Prophet (pbuh) was something that did not enjoy the kind of protections and rights one finds in a modern civilized society of today. Truly even today with all of the prevasive protection agencies and rights-groups of the modern society the insurance of protection is still very difficult. In the Middle-East of the time of our Prophet (pbuh) the very survival of the family might have been determined by their adherance to the word of the father, who was ultimately to insurer of his families protection and the giver of all rights afforded them through his good graces toward them. We find within al-Qur'an this very picture of the family and the means of it's protection. We also find within al-Qur'an the very means of discipline toward those who would upset the very means of it's protection. Now I don't mean to suggest that such is the only means of survival of the family, for surely we find ourselves today living in a society which does afford more respect for family protection and human rights, but let us not forget how life is without these laws enforced and how many in the world still do not have them as completely as one finds in a modern society. We should also not forget that without the participation of the family (mother, father, extended family and children) we struggle to afford the barest essentials of a moral life for our children. One should not take these Scriptures out of context and recognize the context that they are in to come to greater understanding about how they should be interpretated and how they are applied in a Muslim's life.

 

Also, I certainly do not see Muslims as inhernently untrustworthy - of course I don't! However, I do think that concerning matters Islamic, they will be more biased - quite understandably - than a relatively un-prejudiced non-Muslim who knows what he's on about.

 

Again I would suggest that you must be cautious about the "depth" of the understanding of these laws. With the incorrect interpretation you misrepresent our law, our practice and our faith.

 

Waslaam,

Edited by little-mahdi

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Also, I certainly do not see Muslims as inhernently untrustworthy - of course I don't! However, I do think that concerning matters Islamic, they will be more biased - quite understandably - than a relatively un-prejudiced non-Muslim who knows what he's on about.

 

Can someone explain to me how the Truth can be biased?

 

BC, in order to grasp why Islam gets slandered all the time and ergo why you cannot trust the words of Orientalists; we should go back to 675 CE. John of Damascus first began the tradition of ridiculing Islam and the Prophet(P). He claimed in his book De Haeresbius, that the Qur'ân was not revealed but created by the Prophet(P), and that he was helped by a Christian monk, Bahira, to use the Old and New Testament to create a new scripture. He also claimed that the Prophet(P) created verses of the Qur'ân to fulfill his own wants, and these were usually to do with lust and sexual deviancy. Others followed John of Damascus in spreading ideas that portrayed Islam as an inferior religion, headed by Maracei, Hottinger, Nicholas de Cuse, Prideaux and others.

 

They called it the Satanic religion, distorted the Qu'ranic verses and even fabricated some. They called it the religion of the devil and attributed many malicous names to the Prophet (P).

 

Let me cite a few examples:

 

H.A. Lammens, a Jesuit and Church pastor, wrote that Muhammad(P) "ate a lot, followed his (sexual) desires and died because of stomach disease".

 

 

 

Prideaux wrote the following: "Islam is the religion for the followers of the devil. The Moslems are an ignorant race and the Koran from the beginning to the end is filled with the stories of the impossible".

 

Roger Du Pasquier conces my point by stating:

One is forced also to concede that Oriental studies in the West have not always been inspired by the purest spirit of scholarly impartiality, and it is hard to deny that some Islamicists and Arabists have worked with the clear intention of belittling Islam and its adherents.

 

In addition Dr.Maurice Bucaille (reverted Muslim) writes:

When one mentions Islam to the materialist atheist, he smiles with a complacency that is only equal to his ignorance of the subject. In common with the majority of Western intellectuals, of whatever religious persuasion, he has an impressive collection of false notions about Islam.

 

In An Authoritative Exposition - Part 1, by Abdur-Rahîm Green, it's stated:

The history of Orientalism is hardly one of unbiased examination of the sources of Islam especially when under the influence of the bigotry of Christianity. From the fanatical distortions of John of Damascus to the apologetic of later writers against Islam, that told their audiences that the Muslims worshipped three idols! Peter the Venerable (1084-1156) "translated" the Qur'an which was used throughout the Middle Ages and included nine additional chapters. Sale's infamously distorted translation followed that trend, and his, along with the likes of Rodwell, Muir and a multitude of others attacked the character and personality of Muhammmed. Often they employed invented stories, or narration's which the Muslims themselves considered fabricated or weak, or else they distorted the facts by claiming Muslims held a position which they did not, or using the habits practised out of ignorance among the Muslims as the accurate portrayal of Islam. As Norman Daniel tell us in his work Islam and the West: "The use of false evidence to attack Islam was all but universal . . . " (p. 267).

 

One thing really suprises me, if Islam is a "inferior" devilish religion with many complicated doctrines and degratory practises then why would so many people, from Western Orientalists to Christian missionaries, have to tell so many untruths about it?

 

If Islam is indeed from the Devil, you do not need the Devil's ways to defeat it - explaining the truth would be enough.

 

As for Math-E's, your copy&paste excerpts from the "Prophet of Doom" site is self-explanatory.

 

Let me add that if Islam really "degraded" women, then could you please explain to me in very lucid way why for every male convert to Islam, 4 females convert to Islam in the US?

 

Peace

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Peace.

 

It is dreadfully aggrievating that the 'Experts on Islam' that one sees on Western news and commentary television are rarely, if ever, actually Muslims. Or even people who have lived in Muslim-majority countries for very significant lengths of time.

 

As for Submission -- I have not seen this film. However, judging from what I have heard about it, it is not about 'A woman's life in Islam.' It is about a woman's life in an abusive Muslim family, and how that family's interpretation of Islam perpetuated and encouraged abuse. This is different. I hope this film did not present itself as a definative depiction of Muslim women's lives. I thought it was an attempt to call attention to a problem that exists in Muslim and needs to be seen and corrected.

 

The women on this forum present quite a different picture. They deserve to be heard, even though they are not film-makers.

 

If you are a Muslim woman and can telephone us in Colorado to talk about women's issues in Islam on the web-cast radio show my husband and I are doing, please PM me.

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Greetings All,

 

I thought it was an attempt to call attention to a problem that exists in Muslim and needs to be seen and corrected.

 

Not to put words in your mouth, but do you mean "a problem that exists in Muslim culture" ?

 

I suggest that word because, since I started studying Islam, I began to realize the differences between the teachings of pure Islam...and the distortions that certain cultures have perpetrated in the name of the religion.

 

Unfortunately, I find that it is these distortions that are used and magnified in the mass media here in the USA to help the public form their opinions about Islam :D

 

The religion and the culture of the people who subscribe to the religion are 2 completely different things.

 

Peace,

AS

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Peace.

 

Thanks, Allah's Slave. Yes, that was a typo. "A problem that exists in Muslim culture" was what I meant to write. Probably I should have included another modifier "some Muslim cultures."

 

Edited to add: Yes, these distortions are used to create a negative view of Muslim cultures among non-Muslims. Really, I am troubled by the fact that Muslims are so willing to respond with violence and anger to something like Submission but I have never heard of a single Muslim organization that is trying to correct these cultural distortions. A large and vocal women's movement within Islam, supported by Islamic leaders would do a great deal to improve the situation, both for Muslim women and for non-Muslims who find Islam alarming because of these distortions they associate with it.

Edited by Kale

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:D

 

Kale,

 

There are numerous lectures, websites and testimonies about what 'real' Islam means, especially with regards to women. You have to understand the unfair balance when it comes to the media portraying this 'distorted' side. Most people in the West will prefer to listen to and believe the people they have grew up with, and that means western media and authors/journalists.

 

On TV, I have noticed a lot of programmes that depict muslims as the bad guys (even tonight I watched part of a series that had Iraqi terrorists holding hostages in the UK and threatened to explode a chemical bomb in the Prime Ministers presence!!). Now we all know that this is fiction but it all adds to the indoctrination and negativity that people are generally feeling towards muslims. When a real event occurs, these little bits of information are in the back of the mind and seeing muslims as the bad guys is much easier to comprehend because it is a lie that has been repeated over and over again. Even if someone was to speak to a muslim, they would be very cautious and take the muslims views with a pinch of salt because they have been subconsiously 'programmed' to do so.

 

Of course, in the west, where anti-muslim sentiments are not uncommon nowadays, the muslims would be fighting a losing battle because they have almost no media representation, except the odd interview or documentary which is immediately forgotten amidst bigger picture that is being painted for them.

Edited by Z-247

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Peace, Z-247!

 

You are absolutely correct. Which is, in part, why I encourage Muslims to enter the public sphere as regards to these questions. Lectures, testimonies and websites are a step, but until Muslims begin to vocally criticise other Muslims who mis-use the teachings of Islam to justify abuse and oppression of women, those testimonies look like apologies and denials.

 

If I were to repeatedly tell you how peace-loving and fair-minded Americans are, I would not be lying. But my statements would not stand up if I was not also denouncing the violence and injustice that America has created and actively trying to stop it.

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:D

 

This is a problem for both muslims and non-muslims, and that is criticizing the wrong actions of 'their' people, especially in public. I put a lot of it down to ingorance aswell. One of the most common misjudgements (which also annoys me personally) is that if you are not with us, you must be against us 'philosophy'. E.g. if you were against the war in Iraq, you must be pro-terrorism or vice versa. People assume what your opinion is going to be, even if you try tell them any different. It's a mad world were living in at the moment. :D

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Peace.

 

Don't I know it, brother.

 

It takes courage to speak out against injustice. But you can't just speak out against the injustices committed by 'them' and ignore the problems with 'us.' Regardless of how much trouble people who are part of your 'us' might give you. If you do, you're not speaking for justice, you're engaging in partisanism, and you're not helping your 'us' be any better.

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