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wiseguy

Jesus Is Neither God Nor The Son Of God

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Frankly, I am surprised that a Muslim would have such a low opinion of the second most revered prophet in Islam.

 

First off all, who said that Jesus(pbuh) is the second most honored Prophet in Islam? Although Jesus(pbuh) is in the groupf of the five most honoured Messengers(pbut), he is not the second most honored; Abraham(pbuh), the Friend of God, is.

 

Second of all, brother ###### doesn't have a low opinion of Jesus(pbuh), he has a low opinion of the concept of Jesus as God, which is in directly contradiction not only with Islam, but also with Judaism.

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In Islam there is no concept of God having children, be it figuratively or literally.

 

Very True... I didnt mean to say that "He really has got" but in the sense to explain that we are under him, like we are under the father in the family....

 

For .... me and other christians .... if what I have said confuses you all, please take note of what I have said in this post...

 

Salam

Vishah

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Please take a time to read this (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?s=&showtopic=41496&view=findpost&p=440141"]link[/url] though it is not relevant to the topic...

 

.... Salams all my loving brothers an sisters

Bye for now.. hope to meet in the future..( Insha Allah)

 

Vishah

Edited by vishah

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Peace ######,

 

Not afraid. Just pressed for time, and don't want to waste it refuting bad scholarship.

 

You 'me' have just violated your own terms by insulting me!!! It seems to me that you don't respect your own term!!!

 

Quick note. Your theory about Jesus' panic does not bear up under the facts. Neither verse you quoted actually mentions fear. That is your assumption, not supported by the text. Jesus was intent on working out God's will in Jerusalem at Passover. His grand procession into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday left him exposed to the whole Jewish nation, he was not afraid. He cleansed the temple of the money changers under the noses of his enemies. Look at his bearing when he was being arrested. This is a man under intense pressure, but not panic.

 

The Biblical verses tell us that Jesus was afraid of the Jews who wanted to crucify him to death so he avoided them:

 

1) John 7:1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

 

2) John 11:53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

John 11:54 Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples.

 

If Jesus did not fear the Jews, he should walk among the Jews !!! On the contrary, he avoided the Jews! You Christians claim that Jesus is God. If Jesus is God, Jesus should not be afraid of the Jews for the God of the Old Testament had killed 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21) and He ordered the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3). How could the brave and cruel God of the OT avoid the ordinary Jews? How could the the Powerful God of the OT be crucified by the Jews to death? Oh you mean your God was dead!! We Muslims worship Allah (God) and nobody can crucify Allah (God) to death! Therefore Jesus is not God.

 

Frankly, I am surprised that a Muslim would have such a low opinion of the second most revered prophet in Islam.

I have to run, but will respond in detail either later tonight or over the weekend.

 

You have insulted Muslims by making the allegation above which means that you have violated your own terms!! You are wrong for making the allegation above. The fact is we Muslims love and respect Jesus, Abraham, Moses, Muhammad (peace and bless upon them) etc. We Muslims believe that Jesus is a great messenger of God but we will not worship him for he is just a servant of God. We Muslims worship Allah(God) not His servants.

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First off all, who said that Jesus(pbuh) is the second most honored Prophet in Islam? Although Jesus(pbuh) is in the groupf of the five most honoured Messengers(pbut), he is not the second most honored; Abraham(pbuh), the Friend of God, is.

 

Second of all, brother ###### doesn't have a low opinion of Jesus(pbuh), he has a low opinion of the concept of Jesus as God, which is in directly contradiction not only with Islam, but also with Judaism.

 

 

Dear brother Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz and Vishah ....May Allah bless and reward your families and you for your good deeds and defending Allah and His prophets and messengers.....Ameen.

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:sl:

 

I would like to share with you some videos brother 'me'. I found them very interesting! Please watch :sl:

 

 

 

Here are some other videos by this brother you can check them out if you wish:

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/profile_videos?user=Converted2Islam&p=r"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/profile_videos?user...d2Islam&p=r[/url]

 

 

Mehmet

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As a response to the scriptures you quoted, Christians believe that Jesus voluntarily submitted himself to the will of the Father. Our scriptures also say, "Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Phil 2:3-11)

 

We find here that Jesus was not co-equal with the Father, for Jesus said: “...the Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28). Christians forget this and they say that Jesus is equal to the Father thus the Christians contradict their own Gospels. We Muslims know that Jesus is not God for Jesus is not God's co-equal according to the Gospels and Quran.

 

God says that none is like God according to the Bible and Quran:

 

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.

 

Quran : AL-IKHLAS (SINCERITY)

 

112:1 Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;

 

112:2 Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

 

112:3 He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

 

112:4 And there is none like unto Him.

 

The Biblical and Quranic verses have confirmed that there is none like unto God so Jesus is not God for Jesus is a man and God is not a man. Christians are wrong for worshiping Jesus who is a man as their ' God '!!! We Muslims worship Allah (God) and we know that none is like Allah (God)!!!

 

According to the Bible, the so-called ' Jesus ' did not want to be crucified to death by questioning God : Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? .....The fact is Jesus did not volunteer himself to be crucified to death for all the sins of human beings. Jesus even avoided the Jews. 'Jesus' was caught by the Jews and crucified to death which means Jesus did not surrender himself to the Jews so he did not volunteered to be crucified to death !!! How could the so-called Most Powerful God be crucified to death by ordinary Jews? That means the so-called 'God' is weak and powerless so he is not God for the real God is the All Mighty and All Powerful !!! And the real God is Allah the All Mighty and All Powerful and nobody can crucify Allah to death !!!!

Edited by wiseguy

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Peace all,

 

I will try to combine some answers, since vishah and ###### are essentially arguing along similar lines. Of course, our views will dirverge, because Muslims are interpreting the biblical scriptures through the lens of the Quran and I am not. At that point we will have to agree to disagree. Another issue that gets in the way of understanding each other is the different methodologies we bring to the scriptures. For example, in support of the idea that Jesus willingly lay his life down as God's plan, I have quoted at least nine scriptures saying exactly that. ###### and vishah have offered other scriptures that might contradict that idea, though none do directly. It appears to me that Muslims see any possible contradiction as a form of corruption. (please correct me if this is wrong!) The Christian method of understanding the scriptures is that plainly understood scriptures inform the obscure ones, and if you have ten scriptures that say one thing and one that appears to contradict the ten, then you look at the one in light of the ten.

 

Now ###### has put forth the idea that Jesus was in a panic, and therefore unwilling to be crucified. I submit that you will find no scripture about Jesus leading up to the crucifixion that attributes fear to him. So why was he avoiding the Jews? People had tried to kill him before, in Nazareth.

 

Luke 4:28-30

28 When they heard these things, all in the synagogue were filled with wrath. 29 And they rose up and drove him out of the town and brought him to the brow of the hill on which their town was built, so that they could throw him down the cliff. 30 But passing through their midst, he went away.

 

I think a more reasonable answer from the scriptures is to ensure God's plan was fulfilled. If the Jews *had* caught him and killed him, they would have stoned him to death.

Jesus knew that he was to die in Jerusalem, at Passover, by crucifixion.

 

Matthew 20: 17-19

17 And as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside, and on the way he said to them, 18 See, we are going up to Jerusalem. And the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn him to death 19 and deliver him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified, and he will be raised on the third day.

 

It is also clear from the scriptures that Jesus had a habit of dropping out of sight, and then reappearing. The scribes and pharisees wanted to arrest him, but knew they could not because Jesus was popular with the people.

 

Matthew 25:1-5

1 When Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said to his disciples, 2 You know that after two days the Passover is coming, and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified. 3 Then the chief priests and the elders of the people gathered in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, 4 and plotted together in order to arrest Jesus by stealth and kill him. 5 But they said, Not during the feast, lest there be an uproar among the people.

 

So they had to find Jesus alone, which is what they paid Judas for.

 

Matthew 26:14-16

14 Then one of the twelve, whose name was Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests 15 and said, What will you give me if I deliver him over to you? And they paid him thirty pieces of silver. 16 And from that moment he sought an opportunity to betray him.

 

Jesus was not afraid. He was orchestrating events so that God's will would be fulfilled. He had things he needed to accomplish, like cleansing the temple, the last supper, the last teachings of his diciples, and he accomplished every one of them. He entered Jerusalem on Palm Sunday and was in the temple daily, in plain sight of his enemies until they arrested him Thursday night. No, Jesus was not afraid, and certainly not panicked.

 

Vishah, we may get into semantics abut wanting and willing. I refer you back to Jesus' words in John 10:17-18

 

17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.

 

And again

Matthew 26:53-54

53 Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?

 

Jesus clearly stated he was laying down his life, and that all he had to do was say the word and the Father would rescue him. No, he did not WANT to be crucified. But he was WILLING to be crucified for the sake of the Father. I do not WANT to pay taxes, but I pay them WILLINGLY.

 

I am familiar with Psalm 22. Why did Jesus cry out what he did? Part of it was to fulfill scripture. Psalm 22 was written by King David 500 years before Jesus, and was among other things, a prophetic vision of the crucifixion.

 

What was Jesus saying? Vishah, have you ever had to wait for the answer to an important prayer? Have you ever been in a bad spot and needed the Lord to move on your behalf? In those dark valleys time just crawls. I have had nights that felt like months because my anguish was so severe. When I read Psalm 22:1, I do not see a theological dissertation on God and prayer, I see anguish, deep anguish. I see someone who is in a bad place, desperate for God and has not seen God act. It feels like God is far off. Yet in the following verses I also see someone who has fixed his hope on the Holy one of israel, who will not be swayed by the anguish to fall away.

 

I can agree with you on this statement

According to Islam God listen to our prayers and is our helpers in all the situations. To Him alone, we put our trust, and to Him alone we ask for help.

 

But sometimes the answer and the help does not come when we want it to. It comes in God's perfect timing. And what we do between the prayer and the answer is a test of our faith. Jesus was in anguish on the cross. The Father's answer was forthcoming, but not immediate. Please note how Psalm 22 ends:

30 Posterity shall serve him; it shall be told of the Lord to the coming generation; 31 they shall come and proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn, that he has done it.

 

We see Mark 10 a little differently, but I don't think it's worth continuing on that point.

 

Regarding Simon's confession: This is where we get into the heart of the matter. I will need to prepare a good response to you. I thank you again for the thoughtful response.

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Peace ######,

You 'me' have just violated your own terms by insulting me!!! It seems to me that you don't respect your own term!!!

You misunderstood me. Let me walk you through the steps:

1. I asked that we not cherry-pick scripture because it's bad scholarship.

2. You respond with the assumption that I am afraid that you will use the Bible to refute me.

3. I respond that I am not afraid, my concern is bad scholarship. It wastes time. I have not accused you of anything, nor have I insulted you in any way.

 

The Biblical verses tell us that Jesus was afraid of the Jews who wanted to crucify him to death so he avoided them:

 

1) John 7:1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

 

2) John 11:53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

John 11:54 Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples.

 

Please show me where fear is mentioned in these verses. You are assuming.

 

If Jesus did not fear the Jews, he should walk among the Jews !!! On the contrary, he avoided the Jews!

 

Jesus had stuff he wanted to do, like instruct the disciples. Why complicate the task at hand by making trouble for oneself?

 

You Christians claim that Jesus is God. If Jesus is God, Jesus should not be afraid of the Jews for the God of the Old Testament had killed 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21) and He ordered the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3). How could the brave and cruel God of the OT avoid the ordinary Jews? How could the the Powerful God of the OT be crucified by the Jews to death? Oh you mean your God was dead!! We Muslims worship Allah (God) and nobody can crucify Allah (God) to death! Therefore Jesus is not God.

 

Again, you are now building arguments on an unsubstantiated assumption. Jesus had no fear. Please demonstrate from the scriptures that he was afraid. All you have demonstrated was that he avoided the Jews for a while. On that we agree.

 

A side question: Are you angry? You written tone comes off as extremely hostile. You have not once greeted me with an appropriate salutation, and I have wished you peace each time. You have taken offense when none was offered. I have never once insulted anything about Islam in the 3 years I have been visiting this forum, and I never will, because that would be bad manners, and a violation of the terms I agreed to.

 

You have insulted Muslims by making the allegation above which means that you have violated your own terms!! You are wrong for making the allegation above. The fact is we Muslims love and respect Jesus, Abraham, Moses, Muhammad (peace and bless upon them) etc. We Muslims believe that Jesus is a great messenger of God but we will not worship him for he is just a servant of God. We Muslims worship Allah(God) not His servants.

 

In response to you and in answer to Vishah's question regarding Jesus: it is my understanding that Muslims hold Jesus to be an important prophet, and that he was the messiah to the Jews. He was created in Mary's womb by God, that he brought his own book of the law, that the Jews rejected him, that he was rescued from the cross, waits in heaven, and will return to establish justice on the earth and defeat the anti-christ. Muslims believe Jesus was only human, but as a prophet, did not sin. I think I got the idea that he was the second most revered prophet by misunderstanding something another Muslim once said to me. My apologies on that point.

 

######, I remain confused by your attribution of panic to Jesus. It seems to be inconsistent with the Islamic view of a prophet. That's what prompted my response about a "low opinion". Your comment seems to not only go against my faith but yours as well. Please set me straight. It was not a comment on your devotion, but on your line of argument. Again, I have insulted neither you nor Muslims in general.

 

And let me be clear while we are on this point. One of the things I respect most about Muslims is the reverence they have for the great men of faith. The sad truth is that a nominal Muslim will generally show more reverence for Jesus than a nominal Christian. ANYONE who loves Jesus is a friend of mine, even if we disagree about who Jesus is.

 

Righteous, it's a busy weekend! My niece is turning 2! I will respond to your questions and watch the videos when I can.

 

Until then, thank you all for sharing with me and God bless you all.

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Peace all,

 

Now ###### has put forth the idea that Jesus was in a panic, and therefore unwilling to be crucified. I submit that you will find no scripture about Jesus leading up to the crucifixion that attributes fear to him. So why was he avoiding the Jews? People had tried to kill him before, in Nazareth..........Again, you are now building arguments on an unsubstantiated assumption. Jesus had no fear. Please demonstrate from the scriptures that he was afraid. All you have demonstrated was that he avoided the Jews for a while. On that we agree.

 

Matthew 12:14-16, John 7:1, 8:59, 10:39, 11:53-54, & Mark 1:45 show that Jesus consistently feared death. Jesus went out of his way to hide, run, and attempt escape from the Roman and Jewish authorities. Jesus did not want to die for all the sins of human beings because he did NOT want to be crucified to death and he feared the Jews and Romans!!!! You "me" are wrong for saying that Jesus did not fear the Jews ( and Romans ) nor the crucifixion !!! Therefore the crucifixion of the so-called "Jesus" was not voluntary!!

 

I think a more reasonable answer from the scriptures is to ensure God's plan was fulfilled. If the Jews *had* caught him and killed him, they would have stoned him to death.

Jesus knew that he was to die in Jerusalem, at Passover, by crucifixion.

 

If Jesus knew that he was going to be crucified by the Jews , why should he avoid the Jews? If Jesus knew that he was going to be crucified to death, why was Jesus afraid that Jews would have stoned him to death? According to your Gospels, the so-called "Jesus' was not stoned to death but crucified to death so your assumption above is wrong.

Edited by wiseguy

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MY COMMENT: QUOTE

You Christians claim that Jesus is God. If Jesus is God, Jesus should not be afraid of the Jews for the God of the Old Testament had killed 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21) and He ordered the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3). How could the brave and cruel God of the OT avoid the ordinary Jews? How could the the Powerful God of the OT be crucified by the Jews to death? Oh you mean your God was dead!! We Muslims worship Allah (God) and nobody can crucify Allah (God) to death! Therefore Jesus is not God.

 

The response of "me" : Again, you are now building arguments on an unsubstantiated assumption.

 

If you Christians claim that Jesus is God, then Jesus is the God of the OT too ! So it is not wrong for me to use the Biblical verses to substantiate my arguments. How could the Most Powerful God of the OT be crucified to death by the ordinary Jews and Romans? Since we know that Allah (God) is the All Mighty and All Powerful, it is impossible for the Jews and Romans to crucify Him to death. And the Bible claims that Jesus was crucified to death so Jesus is not God for Jesus was too weak and powerless to resist the Jews and Romans!!!

Edited by wiseguy

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Jesus was afraid according to at least one of the Gospels:

 

And he took with him Peter and James and John, and grief and great trouble came on him

And he said to them, My soul is very sad, even to death: be here a little time, and keep watch. (Mark 14:33)

 

Check out this (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_rosetta.reltech(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/TC/vol05/Ehrman2000a.html"]link[/url], it is relevant to the subjects of Jesus being fearful and textual corruption.

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Quran 4:171

 

O People of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth;Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

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The Holy Quran 4:157

 

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

 

The Holy Quran 4:158

 

Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

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Peace Righteous!

 

I have attempted to answer your question through a PM. That way this thread will not get impossibly complicated. [he hoped] I will be watching the videos soon.

 

God bless!

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Concept of God in Islam

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_sultan(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/articles/god.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_sultan(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/articles/god.html[/url]

 

It is a known fact that every language has one or more terms that are used in reference to God and sometimes to lesser deities. This is not the case with Allah. Allah is the personal name of the One true God. Nothing else can be called Allah. The term has no plural or gender. This shows its uniqueness when compared with the word "god," which can be made plural, as in "gods," or made feminine, as in "goddess." It is interesting to notice that Allah is the personal name of God in Aramaic, the language of Jesus and a sister language of Arabic.

 

The One true God is a reflection of the unique concept that Islam associates with God. To a Muslim, Allah is the Almighty Creator and Sustainer of the universe, Who is similar to nothing, and nothing is comparable to Him.

 

The Prophet Muhammad was asked by his contemporaries about Allah; the answer came directly from God Himself in the form of a short chapter of the Qur'an, which is considered to be the essence of the unity or the motto of monotheism. This is chapter 112, which reads:“ In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate. Say (O Muhammad), He is God, the One God, the Everlasting Refuge, who has not begotten, nor has been begotten, and equal to Him is not anyone”.

 

Some non-Muslims allege that God in Islam is a stern and cruel God who demands to be obeyed fully and is not loving and kind. Nothing could be farther from the truth than this allegation. It is enough to know that, with the exception of one, each of the 114 chapters of the Qur'an begins with the verse " In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate". In one of the sayings of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), we are told that “ God is more loving and kind than a mother to her dear child”.

 

On the other hand, God is also Just. Hence, evildoers and sinners must have their share of punishment, and the virtuous must have God's bounties and favors. Actually, God's attribute of Mercy has full manifestation in His attribute of Justice. People suffering throughout their lives for His sake should not receive similar treatment from their Lord as people who oppress and exploit others their whole lives. Expecting similar treatment for them would amount to negating the very belief in the accountability of man in the Hereafter and thereby negate all the incentives for a moral and virtuous life in this world. The following Qur'anic verses are very clear and straightforward in this respect.

 

Verily, for the Righteous are gardens of Delight, in the Presence of their Lord. Shall We then treat the people of Faith like the people of Sin? What is the matter with you? How judge you?

 

Islam rejects characterizing God in any human form or depicting Him as favoring certain individuals or nations on the basis of wealth, power or race. He created the human-beings as equals. They may distinguish themselves and get His favor through virtue and piety only.

 

The concepts that God rested on the seventh day of creation, that God wrestled with one of His soldiers, that God is an envious plotter against mankind, and that God is incarnate in any human being are considered blasphemy from the Islamic point of view.

 

The unique usage of Allah as a personal name of God is a reflection of Islam's emphasis on the purity of the belief in God that is the essence of the message of all God's messengers. Because of this, Islam considers associating any deity or personality with God as a deadly sin that God will never forgive, despite the fact that He may forgive all other sins.

 

The Creator must be of a different nature from the things created because if He is of the same nature as they are, He will be temporal and will therefore need a maker. It follows that nothing is like Him. If the maker is not temporal, then he must be eternal. But if he is eternal, he cannot be caused, and if nothing caused Him to come into existence, nothing outside Him causes Him to continue to exist, which means that he must be self-sufficient. And if He does not depend on anything for the continuance of His own existence, then this existence can have no end. The Creator is therefore eternal and everlasting: "He is the First and the Last".

 

He is Self-sufficient or Self-subsistent, or, to use a Qur'anic term, Al-Qayyum The Creator does not create only in the sense of bringing things into being, He. also preserves them and takes them out of existence and is the ultimate cause of whatever happens to them.

 

“ God is the Creator of everything. He is the guardian over everything. Unto Him belong the keys of the heavens and the earth” (39:62-63).

 

“ No creature is there crawling on the earth, but its provision rests on God. He knows its lodging place and its repository” (11:16).

 

 

A believer loves, and is grateful to God for the bounties He bestowed upon him, but being aware of the fact that his good deeds, whether mental or physical, are far from being commensurate with Divine favors, he is always anxious lest God should punish him, here or in the Hereafter. He, therefore, fears Him, surrenders himself to Him and serves Him with great humility. One cannot be in such a mental state without being almost all the time mindful of God. Remembering God is thus the life force of faith, without which it fades and withers away.

 

The Qur'an tries to promote this feeling of gratitude by repeating the attributes of God very frequently. We find most of these attributes mentioned together in the following verses of the Qur'an:“ He is God; there is no god but He. He is the Knower of the unseen and the visible; He is the All-Merciful, the All-Compassionate. He is God; there is no god but He. He is the King, the All-Holy, the All-Peace, the Guardian of the Faith, the All-Preserver, the All-Mighty, the All-Compeller, the All-Sublime. Glory be to God, above that they associate! He is God, the Creator, the Maker, the Shaper. To Him belong the Names Most Beautiful. All that is in the heavens and the earth magnifies Him; He is the Almighty, the All-Wise” (59:22-24).

 

“ There is no god but He, the Living, the Everlasting. Slumber seizes Him not, nor sleep. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. Who is there that shall intercede with Him save by His leave? He knows what lies before them, and what is after them, and they comprehend not anything of His knowledge save such as He wills. His throne comprises the heavens and earth. The preserving of them oppresses Him not; He is the All-High, the All-Glorious” (2:255).

 

People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the truth.

 

“ The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not "Three". Refrain; better it is for you. God is only one God. Glory be to Him -- (He is) above having a son” (4:171).

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:sl:

 

"Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah. that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah.s Will)."

 

Quran (3:64)

 

:sl:

Edited by Mahid

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Concept of God in Islam

 

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God's Attributes

 

If the Creator is Eternal and Everlasting, then His attributes must also be eternal and everlasting. He should not lose any of His attributes nor acquire new ones. If this is so, then his attributes are absolute. Can there be more than one Creator with such absolute attributes? Can there be, for example, two absolutely powerful Creators? A moment's thought shows that this is not feasible.

 

The Qur'an summarizes this argument in the following verses:“ God has not taken to Himself any son, nor is there any god with Him: for then each god would have taken of that which he created and some of them would have risen up over others” (Quran 23:91).

 

“ And why, were there gods in earth and heaven other than God, they (heaven and earth) would surely go to ruin” (Quran 21:22).

 

 

The Oneness of God

 

The Qur'an reminds us of the falsity of all alleged gods. To the worshipers of man-made objects it asks:“ Do you worship what you have carved yourself” (Quran 37:95). “ Or have you taken unto yourself others beside Him to be your protectors, even such as have no power either for good or for harm to themselves” (Quran 13:16).

 

To the worshipers of heavenly bodies it cites the story of Abraham:“ When night outspread over him, he saw a star and said: This is my Lord. But when it set, he said: I love not the setters. When he saw the moon rising, he said: This is my Lord. But when it set, he said: If my Lord does not guide me, I shall surely be of the people gone astray. When he saw the sun rising, he said: This is my Lord; this is greater. But when it set, he said: O my people, surely I quit that which you associate, I have turned my face to Him who originated the heavens and the earth; a man of pure faith, I am not one of the idolators” (Quran 6:76-79).

Edited by wiseguy

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THE "GOD" THAT NEVER WAS

 

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Christians claim falsely that Jesus is God because:

 

(i)"HE SHARED THE NATURE OF GOD",

 

and (ii) because "IN EVERY WAY HE IS LIKE GOD".

 

Numerous quotations from the Bible are given below to prove that Jesus neither SHARED THE NATURE OF GOD, nor is he IN EVERY WAY LIKE GOD. He can, therefore, NEVER be GOD. We have given the quotations from the Bible without comment, because the Bible speaks for itself! TO SAY THAT JESUS IS GOD OR SON OF GOD IS NOT ONLY A MOCKERY OF GODHOOD, BUT BLASPHEMY OF THE LOWEST ORDER AND AND INSULT TO THE INTELLIGENCE OF MEN:

 

1) THE BIRTH OF "GOD"

 

a)"God" was created from the seed of David: "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the SEED of David according to the flesh." (Romans, 1:3)

 

b ) "God" Sucked The Paps of a Woman: "And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked." (Luke, 11:27)

 

c) The Sex of "God": "And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called Jesus." (Luke, 2:21)

 

d) The Occupation of "God": "Jesus was a carpenter by trade." (Mark, 6:3), "and the son of a carpenter." (Matthew, 13:55)

 

e) The Transport of "God": "Behold, thy king cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ######." (Matthew, 21:5) "And Jesus, when he had found a young ######, sat thereon." (John, 12:14)

 

f) The Poverty of "God": "And Jesus saith unto him, the foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." (Matthew, 8:20)

 

g) The Meagre Possessions of "God": "Shoes of Jesus" (Luke, 3:16), "Garments and coat of Jesus" (John, 19:23)

 

h) The Transport of "God": "Behold, thy king cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ######." (Matthew, 21:5) "And Jesus, when he had found a young ######, sat thereon." (John, 12:14)

 

i) "God" Was a Loyal Subject: Jesus was a good citizen, he was loyal to Caesar. He said: "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." (Matthew, 22:21) He paid his tax regularly. (Matthew, 17:24-27)

 

2) THE DEVELOPMENT OF "GOD"

 

a) The Powerless "God" (Jesus) said: "I can of mine own self do nothing." (John, 5:30)

 

b ) "God" Was Ignorant of the Time. Jesus said: "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Mark, 13:32)

 

c) "God" Was Unlettered: "Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught. And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?" (John, 7:14-15)

 

d) "God" Learnt Through Experience: "Learned he obedience by the things which he sufered." (Hebrews, 5:8)

 

 

3) THE RACIAL "GOD"

According to "God", The Gentiles Are Dogs: "It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs." (matthew, 15:26)

 

4) A "GOD" UNLIKE THE GOD

 

a) A Hungry "God": "And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungered." (Matthew 4:2), "Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered." (Matthew, 21:18), "and on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry." (Mark, 11:12)

 

b ) A Thirsty "God": "(He) saith, I thirst." (John, 19:28)

 

c) A Weak "God": "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him." (Luke, 22:43)

 

5) The "GOD" ON THE RUN

 

a) "God" feared the Jews: "After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him." (John, 7:1)

 

b ) "God" Walked in Fear of the Jews: "Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death. Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews." (John, 11:53-54)

 

c) "God" Has Shown a Clean Pair of Heels: "Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand." (John, 10:39)

 

d) "God" Fled in Disguise: "Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by." (John, 8:59)

 

6) THE CAPTURE OF "GOD"

 

a) A Friend Betrayed the Secret Hiding Place of "God": "And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus off-times resorted thither with his disciples. Judas then, having received a band of man and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons." (John, 18:2-3)

 

b ) "God" Was Arrested, Bound and Led Away: "Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took Jesus, and bound him, and led him away." (John, 18:12-13)

 

c) "God" Was Humiliated: "And the men that held Jesus mocked him, and smote him. And when they had blindfolded him, they struck him on the face." (Luke, 22:63-64). "Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands." (Matthew, 26:67)

 

d) "God" Was Defenseless: "One of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand", he said: "Why smitest thou me?" (John, 18:22-23)

 

e) "God" Was Condemned to Death: "And they all condemned him to be guilty of death." (Mark, 14:64). "They answered and said, he is guilty of death."(Matthew, 26:66)

 

f) The Dumb and Docile "God": "He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth." (Acts, 8:32)

 

 

Conclusion: According to the quotations of the Bible given above, we find that Jesus did neither SHARE THE NATURE OF GOD nor is he IN EVERY WAY LIKE GOD. Jesus is, therefore, definitely NOT God.

Edited by wiseguy

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Peace ######,

 

Perhaps this is a fool's errand after all. You are understandably overlaying the teachings of the Quran on the Bible. It is your right to do so, since the Quran is your foundation of truth. As a Christian I am bound by the actual text of scripture. I am to neither add to nor subtract from it. I am not allowed to overlay my assumptions on it, but to open my heart and let God teach me through it. The difference boils down to this: You are speaking the Quran to my scriptures, while I am allowing them to speak to me.

 

As a result, I tend to get picky about what is there and not there. You have correctly noted that Jesus was mindful of the Jews desire to kill him and altered his travel plans accordingly. We agree on that. You attribute this to fear, and I cannot, for the word does not appear in the text. I am left to look at what the scripture DOES say as to what Jesus was thinking at the time.

 

I thank you for providing some verses. I have grouped the first four together, since they are all similar.

 

Matthew 12:14-21

4 But the Pharisees went out and conspired against him, how to destroy him. 15 Jesus, aware of this, withdrew from there. And many followed him, and he healed them all 16 and ordered them not to make him known. 17 This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: 18 Behold, my servant whom I have chosen,my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles. 19 He will not quarrel or cry aloud, nor will anyone hear his voice in the streets; 20 a bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not quench, until he brings justice to victory; 21 and in his name the Gentiles will hope.

 

John 7:1-7

1 After this Jesus went about in Galilee. He would not go about in Judea, because the Jews were seeking to kill him.

 

But if you keep reading you find that:

John 7:10-15

10 But after his brothers had gone up to the feast, then he also went up, not publicly but in private. 11 The Jews were looking for him at the feast, and saying, Where is he? 12 And there was much muttering about him among the people. While some said, He is a good man, others said, No, he is leading the people astray. 13 Yet for fear of the Jews no one spoke openly of him. 14 About the middle of the feast Jesus went up into the temple and began teaching. 15 The Jews therefore marveled, saying, How is it that this man has learning, when he has never studied?

John 8:59

So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

 

John 10:39

Again they sought to arrest him, but he escaped from their hands.

 

John 11:53-57

53 So from that day on they made plans to put him to death. 54 Jesus therefore no longer walked openly among the Jews, but went from there to the region near the wilderness, to a town called Ephraim, and there he stayed with the disciples.

 

Why would Jesus avoid death at one point and embrace it at another? The text of scripture offers us an answer: it wasn't time yet:

 

John 8:20

These words he spoke in the treasury, as he taught in the temple; but no one arrested him, because his hour had not yet come.

 

John 12:20-26

20 Now there were some Greeks among those who went up to worship at the Feast. 21 They came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, with a request. "Sir," they said, "we would like to see Jesus." 22 Philip went to tell Andrew; Andrew and Philip in turn told Jesus. 23 Jesus replied, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24 I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.

 

Matthew 17-25

17 Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, Where will you have us prepare for you to eat the Passover? 18 He said, Go into the city to a certain man and say to him, The Teacher says, My time is at hand. I will keep the Passover at your house with my disciples.

 

John 13:1

Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart out of this world to the Father, having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end.

 

Jesus was not simply God's kamikazi. Jesus' ministry was more than simply dying. He healed people, taught them by word and example. He lay the foundations for the church, when all was ready, THEN it was time to lay his life down. Moreover, Jesus knew Judas was going to betray him, and could have fled. He did not.

 

Matthew 26:21-25

21 And while they were eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me." 22 They were very sad and began to say to him one after the other, "Surely not I, Lord?" 23 Jesus replied, "The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. 24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born." 25 Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, "Surely not I, Rabbi?" Jesus answered, "Yes, it is you."

 

John 13:27-30

27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. "What you are about to do, do quickly," Jesus told him, 28 but no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him. 29 Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the Feast, or to give something to the poor. 30 As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night.

 

Once Jesus knew the time had come, he went to Jerusalem. He entered Jerusalem in a parade held in his honor. He cleansed the temple. He taught in the temple. He celebrated one last Passover with the disciples, he waited for Judas to return. He had the means to escape, but instead he walked the hard path the Father had given him. Christians understand that love is not a feeling, it is a choice. Jesus loved the Father, and choose obedience, even unto death.

 

I separated this scripture because it is a different case.

 

Mark 1:40-45

40 And a leper came to him, imploring him, and kneeling said to him, If you will, you can make me clean. 41 Moved with pity, he stretched out his hand and touched him and said to him, I will; be clean. 42 And immediately the leprosy left him, and he was made clean. 43 And Jesus sternly charged him and sent him away at once, 44 and said to him, See that you say nothing to anyone, but go, show yourself to the priest and offer for your cleansing what Moses commanded, for a proof to them. 45 But he went out and began to talk freely about it, and to spread the news, so that Jesus could no longer openly enter a town, but was out in desolate places, and people were coming to him from every quarter.

 

See what precedes the scripture you quote:

Mark 1:32-35

32 That evening, at sundown, they brought to him all who were sick or possessed with demons. 33 And the whole city was gathered together about the door. 34 And he healed many who were sick with various diseases, and cast out many demons; and he would not permit the demons to speak, because they knew him. 35 And in the morning, a great while before day, he rose and went out to a lonely place, and there he prayed.

 

Matthew 14:23

And after he had dismissed the crowds, he went up on the mountain by himself to pray. When evening came, he was there alone,

 

Mark 6:46

And after he had taken leave of them, he departed into the mountain to pray.

 

Luke 6:12

And it came to pass in these days, that he went out into the mountain to pray; and he continued all night in prayer to God.

 

Luke 9:28

And it came to pass about eight days after these sayings, that he took with him Peter and John and James, and went up into the mountain to pray.

In this case, Jesus wasn't avoiding Jews, he was avoiding the mob that appeared every time he presented himself, so he could pray.

 

So to sum up this part of our discussion thus far:

 

###### has presented us with a Jesus who is fleeing from the very Jews God sent him to reach. He attributes fear to be the reason Jesus does this, and concludes that because Jesus is afraid, he cannot be God. Because Jesus didn't want to die, his sacrifice cannot be considered voluntary.

 

The actual words of the scriptures present us with a Jesus who is quite different. We meet a Jesus who devotes himself to prayer, makes it a priority to get alone with the Father before ministering to the crowds. We see a Jesus who picks and chooses his confrontations with his enemies. We see a Jesus who is devoted to the Father, who is aware of his impending death and resurrection. And when the Father gives the word, he goes to Jerusalem, he presents himself and is arrested, tortured and killed. Jesus clearly believes that it is in his power to avoid this, "but how then will the scriptures be fulfilled?" He chooses his destiny. It was a hard choice. No, he did not want to die, nor did he relish the idea of suffering. But he chose the cross.

 

Hopefully we can leave this part of our discussion and move on to the divinity of Jesus.

 

And to all people reading this thread, I beg for your patience. Scripture must be understood in context, and so to understand one verso of scripture it is usually necessary to look up several others to round out the picture. It's slow work, and because I am thinking this through and writing this stuff myself, it's even slower.

 

God bless you all.

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Jesus was afraid according to at least one of the Gospels:

 

And he took with him Peter and James and John, and grief and great trouble came on him

And he said to them, My soul is very sad, even to death: be here a little time, and keep watch. (Mark 14:33)

 

Check out this (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_rosetta.reltech(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/TC/vol05/Ehrman2000a.html"]link[/url], it is relevant to the subjects of Jesus being fearful and textual corruption.

Peace, Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz

 

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I need to re-read the link you provided before commenting on it.

 

Regarding Mark 14:33, I looked up several new testament Greek sites, and they all agree the word there is

adhmonein, meaning 'to be troubled, great distress or anguish, depressed'

 

If the the writer meant fear, he would have used fobou

 

Mt 28:4

The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.

 

or e?kfobov

 

Mark 9:6

For he did not know what to answer; for they became terrified.

 

or fobe?omai

 

Mark 4:41

They became very much afraid and said to one another, "Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey Him?"

 

Jesus was distressed by the path that lay ahead of him, it was an awful fate to embrace. Christians acknowledge the struggle. The idea that Jesus was in fear for his life is simply not supported by the text.

 

God bless!

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me said "Hopefully we can leave this part of our discussion and move on to the divinity of Jesus. "

 

This part of our discussion is not finished yet so we are going to discuss it further and I am ready to discuss the so-called ' divinity of Jesus' soon. I am very busy today so we'll discuss them soon.

 

From your and our statements above I can conclude that Jesus fear the Jews and he avoided them as best he could. And Jesus and God are two separate beings so Jesus is not God!

 

The so-called Jesus never surrendered himself to the Jews. They even hired traitors to help them to detain the so-called Jesus. The Jews searched for him and caught him and brought him to the Romans and asked the Romans to crucify the so-called Jesus to death. Therefore the death of the so-called Jesus was not voluntary. It is a forced death!!

Edited by wiseguy

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Peace all,

 

Well, I am at a loss. ###### appears to be intent on seeing what he wants to see, regardless of what the words of the gospel actually mean.

 

Jesus saying, "I lay down my life, no one takes it from me" seems plain enough for me, and I would hope an uninterested observer would agree.

 

Which brings me to a thought, do we have any people here who don't care about this issue? Could you do me a favor and review this thread? I think my points speak for themselves, but maybe not. Any input on presentation would be appreciated.

 

God bless!

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Hi,

 

Peace all,

 

Jesus saying, "I lay down my life, no one takes it from me" seems plain enough for me, and I would hope an uninterested observer would agree.

 

God bless!

 

From your earlier quote "17. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father"

 

Would you elaborate on the last part of the sentence. "This charge I have received from my Father".

 

Second:

You quote "For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life ...."

So imagine purely imagine. What would it be like if The quote was " For this reason the Father does not loves me, because I did not lay down my life ...."

Would He have had authority to lay it down and take it up again and would that charge would have come from the father ?

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Hi,

From your earlier quote "17. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father"

 

Would you elaborate on the last part of the sentence. "This charge I have received from my Father".

 

Second:

You quote "For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life ...."

So imagine purely imagine. What would it be like if The quote was " For this reason the Father does not loves me, because I did not lay down my life ...."

Would He have had authority to lay it down and take it up again and would that charge would have come from the father ?

Peace Student,

 

It could also be put, "I have received this command from my Father." Maybe you can remember to the beginning of this thread, where I quoted Phillipians 2:5-8, which goes:

5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

 

To model obedience for us perfectly, Jesus submitted himself to the Father. Elsewhere in the gospel, Jesus stated that he and the Father are one. This could mean several things, but at the least it meant they were on the same page. Because of that oneness of mind, I believe that Jesus would have gone to the cross regardless, the scriptures said it was going to happen; but for the sake of his example, he submitted to the Father, as we must all submit to the Father. Christians believe that Jesus' authority to lay down his life and pick it up again is a proof of his divinity. That authority did not come from the Father, but command to lay it down did.

 

I do not have an answer for your second question. Jesus would have to stop being Jesus and God would have to stop being God for it to make sense. God loves. He loves unconditionally. His mercy is extended to all people at all times. He will render judgement on the last day, but his nature is that of pure holy love. I believe Jesus would still have had the authority, being the Son, but it would mean that he and the Father wouldn't be one. Sorry, but that is as good as I can do at the moment.

 

Thank you and God bless.

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