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wiseguy

Jesus Is Neither God Nor The Son Of God

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Peace, Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz

 

And also upon you

 

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I need to re-read the link you provided before commenting on it.

 

The ideas are not original, I just read that link and found it to deal with both the topics of Jesus being fearful and textual corruption, that's why I posted it.

 

 

Jesus was distressed by the path that lay ahead of him, it was an awful fate to embrace. Christians acknowledge the struggle. The idea that Jesus was in fear for his life is simply not supported by the text.

 

You know, this sounds extremely weird if we consider Jesus to be God. Plus, the idea of God being distressed sounds extremely alien to a Muslim. You also mentioned that Jesus wanted to do his Father's will. This also sounds extremely weird considering that both are supposed to be God.

 

PS: You say that brother ###### is looking at the Bible through the lenses of the Qur'an. Well, you could always look at it as if he was looking at it through the eyes of Judaism, since the concept of God in Judaism is the same as in Islam.

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Hi 'me'....nice to see you here and we'll shall continue discussing the present issue and we'll discuss the so-called ' divinity ' of Jesus after I have concluded our discussion on whether Jesus feared the Jews who wanted to kill him.

Do you have anything to say before I conclude our discussion whether Jesus fear the Jews and the crucifixion? I will be pleased to read your final statement on whether Jesus feared the Jews and death. After that I will make a conclusion about the issue based on my and my brothers' statements and yours. If you refuse to respond within 3 hours then I will assume that you have nothing to say about the issue!! After all you are here when I make this statement.

 

Then we will discuss the so-called ' divinity of Jesus '.

Edited by wiseguy

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Hi 'me'....nice to see you here and we'll shall continue discussing the present issue and we'll discuss the so-called ' divinity ' of Jesus after I have concluded our discussion on whether Jesus feared the Jews who wanted to kill him.

Do you have anything to say before I conclude our discussion whether Jesus fear the Jews and the crucifixion? I will be pleased to read your final statement on whether Jesus feared the Jews and death. After that I will make a conclusion about the issue based on my and my brothers' statements and yours. If you refuse to respond within 3 hours then I will assume that you have nothing to say about the issue!! After all you are here when I make this statement.

 

Then we will discuss the so-called ' divinity of Jesus '.

peace ######,

 

I have faithfully quoted the relevant passages of scripture. I can do no more, nor should I. May the God of Truth do with them what He will. It would be helpful to the discussion if you could directly respond to the scripture in John where Jesus says. "Nobody takes my life, I lay it down willingly." From your perspective, what could he have meant?

 

Oh, and my "presence" here is misleading. I was up in the middle of the night, checked on the thread, and left it up on the computer. My computer was here, but I was happily asleep.

 

God Bless!

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Hi 'me'...nice to see you again. I will respond to your statements in my conclusion. Then we will discuss the so-called ' divinity of Jesus.'

Edited by wiseguy

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Lets us define ‘ fear ‘ and ‘ avoid ‘:

 

Fear (verb) means

(1) be afraid or feel anxious or apprehensive about a possible or probable situation or event,

(2) be afraid or scared of; be frightened of;

(3) be uneasy or apprehensive about.

 

Avoid (verb) means:

1. To stay clear of; shun.

2. To keep from happening:

3. Law To annul or make void; invalidate.

 

Based on the definition of ‘fear’ and ‘avoid’ above and the Gospels below, I can prove that Jesus avoided the Jews because he feared the Jews who might kill him:

 

Matthew 12:14-16, John 7:1, 8:59, 10:39, 11:53-54, and Mark 1:45 show that Jesus consistently feared death. Jesus went out of his way to hide, run, and attempt escape from the Roman and Jewish authorities.

 

Jesus feared the Jews : "After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him." (John, 7:1)

 

Jesus walked in fear of the Jews: "Then from that day forth they took

counsel together for to put him to death. Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews." (John, 11:53-54)

 

Jesus has shown a clean pair of heels: "Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand." (John, 10:39)

 

"God" fled in disguise: "Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by." (John, 8:59)

 

Matthew 12:

14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;

16 And charged them that they should not make him known:

 

Mark 1:

42 And as soon as he had spoken, immediately the leprosy departed from him, and he was cleansed.

43 And he straitly charged him, and forthwith sent him away;

44 And saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

45 But he went out, and began to publish it much, and to blaze abroad the matter, insomuch that Jesus could no more openly enter into the city, but was without in desert places: and they came to him from every quarter.

 

Mark 14:

10 And Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve, went unto the chief priests, to betray him unto them.

11 And when they heard it, they were glad, and promised to give him money. And he sought how he might conveniently betray him.

 

Matthew 26:

1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said unto his disciples,

2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

3 Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,

4 And consulted that they might take Jesus by subtilty, and kill him.

 

According to the Gospel of Mark. Jesus was sad when he knew that he was going to be crucified to death for human sins:

Mark 14:

18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.

28 But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee.

33 And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy;

34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.

43 And immediately, while he yet spake, cometh Judas, one of the twelve, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and the scribes and the elders.

44 And he that betrayed him had given them a token, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he; take him, and lead him away safely.

45 And as soon as he was come, he goeth straightway to him, and saith, Master, master; and kissed him.

46 And they laid their hands on him, and took him.

 

Mark 15:

15 And so Pilate, willing to content the people, released Barabbas unto them, and delivered Jesus, when he had scourged him, to be crucified.

 

The verses of the Gospels above show that Jesus consistently feared death. ‘Jesus’ went out of his way to hide, run, and attempt escape from the Roman and Jewish authorities. If ‘ Jesus ‘ knew that he would be crucified to death by the Jews and Romans and he wanted to die for the sins of all human beings, I think that ‘Jesus’ would neither fear nor avoid the Jews. And ‘Jesus’ should surrender himself to the Jews and Romans instead of making the matter more complicated by fearing and avoiding the Jews and forcing the Jews to hire traitors to help them to apprehend Jesus. By avoiding the Jews, Jesus tried to avoid the crucifixion based on the definition of ‘ avoid ‘ and ‘fear’.

 

Avoid (verb) means:

1. To stay clear of; shun.

2. To keep from happening:

3. Law To annul or make void; invalidate.

 

Fear (verb) means

(1) be afraid or feel anxious or apprehensive about a possible or probable situation or event,

(2) be afraid or scared of; be frightened of;

(3) be uneasy or apprehensive about.

 

When Jesus avoided the Jews, it meant that Jesus wanted to stay clear of Jews to keep the crucifixion from happening or nullify the crucifixion. And Jesus feared the Jews because he was apprehensive about a possible crucifixion by the Jews and Romans.

 

Mark 15: 34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

 

Note: Mark 15:34 has proven that Jesus is not God for God and Jesus are two separate beings. And Jesus question God why God has forsaken him indicating that Jesus did not want to die on the Cross for all the sins of human beings.

 

Was the Person on the Cross Really Jesus?

 

The Bible says:

 

“For the LORD loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. They will be protected forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off;” (Psalms 37:28)

 

But yet when Jesus Christ (pbuh) was put on the cross according to the Bible. He cried out:

 

“About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mathew 27:46)

“And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34)

 

How can Jesus be forsaken when God does not forsake his faithful ones?? Now you the Christians have four options to choose from.

1. The person put on the cross was not really Jesus.

2. Jesus (pbuh) was not faithful to God.

3. Jesus (pbuh) lied that God forsook him.

4. Bible is lying when it says that God does not forsake his beloved ones.

You have four options to choose from. You cannot add a fifth option here. So decide for yourself.

 

I and my brothers have shown you the Biblical verses that show Jesus avoided the Jews because he feared the Jews and Romans. And Jesus avoided the Jews and Romans because he was afraid that the Jews and Romans might crucify him to death but you show us the verses of the Gospels that state that Jesus was willing to be crucified for all the sins of human beings. These Biblical contradictions or the corruptions of the Gospels prove that the Gospels are neither reliable nor trustworthy.

 

You allege that Jesus was willing to die on the cross for all the sins of human beings. However your allegation is refuted by the Biblical verses below:

 

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

Jesus is recorded to have said: No blood offering, of beast or bird, or man, can take away sin, for how can the conscience be purged from sin by the shedding of innocent blood? Nay, it will increase the condemnation. (Gospel of the Nazarenes) (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_altreligion.about(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/library/texts/bl_holytwelve36.htm"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_altreligion.about(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/library/texts...olytwelve36.htm[/url]

 

Based on Ezekiel 18:20 and the saying of Jesus above , I dare say that Jesus did not want to be crucified to death for all the sins of human beings because the Bible says that we are not responsible for the sins of other people and children are not punished for the sins of the parents. Everybody is responsible for his or her own sins.Therefore the Christian claim that Jesus was crucified to death for all the sins of human beings is slanderous, misleading and nonsensical. And the crucifixion of Jesus is a hoax!!!

 

The Holy Quran 4:157

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

 

The Holy Quran 4:158

Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

 

Concept Of Birth In Islam.

 

According to Islam every child is born sinless, and no sin is inherited. Islam does not recognize any original sin whatsoever, no man would have to be born with it. The infant is a pure innocent creature, which will only become sinful when it actually commits a sin itself, and one definitely cannot commit a sin before one is born. The Quran says in confirmation of this :

 

"No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another, And that man can have nothing but what he strives for. And (the fruit of) his striving will soon come insight, then he will be rewarded with a complete reward". (Al najm, 53:38-41)

 

These verses elaborate on the fact that the Just God (Allah) does not burden anybody else with the weight of the sinners wrongdoing, and neither will He blame anyone for a sin not committed by him.

 

Everybody is responsible for his own sin, and only he will be questioned for his sin. Neither does one inherit a sin from his ancestors, nor does he pass it onto his descendants.

Each and everyone’s success relies on his own efforts and will be saved by his own faith. Every human is given the capacity to endeavor and strive and win the reward for doing so.

 

The doors of repentance are also open to everyone so they can rid themselves of any sin committed and free themselves from its burden, hus dispensing with any need to visit a "confession box" or throw the burden on anyone else, he only has to turn back to his Lord (Allah) the Forgiver, the Most Just.

Edited by wiseguy

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Nice to see you 'me' again.....I have made the conclusion above so now we can discuss the so-called ' divinity of Jesus'.

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My friend 'me'

 

Here is my simple statement: Jesus is not God.

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Peace ######,

 

Thank you for calling me "friend." As I am preparing my thoughts, could you do me a favor? Please explain what Muslims believe about the Quran and it's relationship to God. I have heard it alluded that the Quran is eternal and not created. That would make sense, since the word of God (that is, the expression of Himself) would be implicit in His being, and because eternity has no before or after, it would be a continuous word.

 

So in a nutshell, what do Muslims believe about the nature of the Quran, and what is the relationship between God and the Quran? Is the Quran holy like God is holy? If it is helpful, feel free to start a new thread. I look forward to learning from you.

 

God bless!

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Peace Student,

 

It could also be put, "I have received this command from my Father." Maybe you can remember to the beginning of this thread, where I quoted Phillipians 2:5-8, which goes:

5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

 

This verse from Phillipians 2:5-8. I dont know the background about it. But I think is an interpretation of events or interpretation of how he sees it by the one who wrote/spoke it. And so i feel it should not be a part of the bible as "The Gods word" because these were words of the one who tried to explain the sentence " I have received this command from my Father". Correct me if i am wrong.

 

To model obedience for us perfectly, Jesus submitted himself to the Father. Elsewhere in the gospel, Jesus stated that he and the Father are one. This could mean several things, but at the least it meant they were on the same page.

Same page is a good analogy. Same person/entity is not. Ex. Condi Rice visiting you to give you a law etc. The message she gives you is in accordance with Bush. What she says is what Bush says. What she means is what Bush means. You cant obey Bush unless you obey Condi Rice. You cant 'come' to Bush unless you come to Condi Rice. You would be obliged to thank her for bringing the message. However It would be wrong of you to say Condi Rice is the President of USA.

 

I do not have an answer for your second question. Jesus would have to stop being Jesus and God would have to stop being God for it to make sense. .

I dont agree completely. For the sake of argument and not by any means blasphemy, Jesus would have to stop being Jesus agreed, but God would not have to stop being God. Agreed everything would have to turn upside down etc for it to have occured. However i did say "Imagine".

 

God loves. He loves unconditionally. .

A baptist once told me that i have to be baptised. Another told me i have to believe in Jesus as my saviour. Another tells me i have to accept Jesus in my life etc etc. After which i will be saved. I mean, come on. A gentile and a christian or a Jew are not equal if i have understood correctly from christianity. So theres a condition of Gods love. From the Christian point of view. I believe God loves conditionally. I believe in him he loves me, I disbelieve in him he has promised punishment. I obey him he has promised blissful eternity. I disobey him he has promised punishment but has also given me hope by telling us about his mercy. .

 

 

Sorry, but that is as good as I can do at the moment.

If you "Imagine" perhaps you can get better. Again i beg you to imagine, imagine if according to your scripture, Jesus would have fallen to the temptation of the devil in the desert, Imagine PURELY imagine what would have happened.

 

I hope this is not a long post. I personally dislike lengthy ones.

Edited by Student

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Peace ######,

 

Thank you for calling me "friend." As I am preparing my thoughts, could you do me a favor? Please explain what Muslims believe about the Quran and it's relationship to God...... I look forward to learning from you.

 

God bless!

 

My dear friend 'me'.......You are welcome. I think you can start a new thread to discuss your suggestion above. If you are really interested to know more about Islam, I think you better learn from Islamic scholars. You can discuss Islam with them. And there are ex-Christian missionaries who have converted to Islam and you can learn more from them.

 

Former Christian Priests and Missionaries who have Embraced Islam: Testimonies of Christian leaders who have converted (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_thetruereligion(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/modules/xfsection/index.php?category=1"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_thetruereligion(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/modules/xfsecti....php?category=1[/url]

 

"And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud. When they listen to that which hath been revealed unto the messenger, thou seest their eyes overflow with tears because of their recognition of the Truth. They say: Our Lord, we believe. Inscribe us as among the witnesses" [Qur’an 5:82-83]

 

I am just an ordinary Muslim man.

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Peace ######,

 

Thank you for calling me "friend." As I am preparing my thoughts, could you do me a favor? Please explain what Muslims believe about the Quran and it's relationship to God...... I look forward to learning from you.

 

God bless!

 

My dear friend 'me'.......You are welcome.

 

The divine nature of the Holy Quran:

 

Qur'an 10:35 Say: "Of your 'partners' is there any that can give any guidance towards truth?" Say: "It is Allah Who gives guidance towards truth, is then He Who gives guidance to truth more worthy to be followed, or he who finds not guidance (himself) unless he is guided? what then is the matter with you? How judge ye?"

 

Qur'an 10:36 But most of them follow nothing but fancy: truly fancy can be of no avail against truth. Verily Allah is well aware of all that they do.

 

Qur'an 10:37 This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah; on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the worlds.

 

Qur'an 10:38 Or do they say, "He forged it"? say: "Bring then a Sura like unto it, and call (to your aid) anyone you can besides Allah, if it be ye speak the truth!"

 

Qur'an 10:39

Nay, they charge with falsehood that whose knowledge they cannot compass, even before the elucidation thereof hath reached them: thus did those before them make charges of falsehood: but see what was the end of those who did wrong!

 

The Holy Qur'an is the Word of God:

 

Qur'an 69:43

(This is) a Message sent down from the Lord of the Worlds.

 

Qur'an 69.048

But verily this is a Message for the Allah-fearing.

 

Qur'an 69:49

And We certainly know that there are amongst you those that reject (it).

 

The Holy Qur'an is the guidance of God to all human beings:

 

Qur'an 2:185

Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (Between right and wrong). So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting, but if any one is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (Should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you; He does not want to put to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful.

 

God promise to guard the Holy Quran from corruption:

 

Muslims believe that God revealed books to His messengers as proof for mankind and as guidance for them. Among these books is the Quran, which God revealed to the Prophet Muhammad . God has guaranteed the Quran’s protection from any corruption or distortion. God has said: "Indeed, We have sent down the Quran, and surely We will guard it (from corruption)." (Quran, 15:9)

 

I think you can start a new thread to discuss your suggestion above.

 

I am just an ordinary Muslim man. If you are really interested to know more about Islam, please visit any Islamic centers to discuss Islam.

Edited by wiseguy

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"Me", yes, the Qur'an is uncreated just like the Torah, the Gospel and the rest of the Books from God.

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Salam all.

- Just visiting in the weekends - Hope to meet every weekend ( Fri - Sat-Insha Allah)

Firstly its very nice to see brother ###### and Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz on debate. May Allah maintain both of you in the right path.

 

Let me have a little discussion with my limited time with "me". Before that, hope you are fine..

 

I have a simple question to you.

 

What about the chrisitians who dont believe in trinity- whether Jesus is God or son of God?

 

Remember I have only 2 days - hope to see an answer .

May Allah show you the right path

 

Salam

Vishah

Edited by vishah

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Salam all.

- Just visiting in the weekends - Hope to meet every weekend ( Fri - Sat-Insha Allah)

Firstly its very nice to see brother ###### and Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz on debate. May Allah maintain both of you in the right path.

 

Let me have a little discussion with my limited time with "me". Before that, hope you are fine..

 

I have a simple question to you.

 

What about the chrisitians who dont believe in trinity- whether Jesus is God or son of God?

 

Remember I have only 2 days - hope to see an answer .

May Allah show you the right path

 

Salam

Vishah

 

Peace all,

 

I am really busy just now, so it will be a few days, possibly a week before I respoond in full. No disrespect or disinterest intended.

 

Vishah,

Depends which group we are talking about. There are some that are more or less in line with standard Christian teaching, and some that are borderline cults. Salvation is not dependent upon a firm grasp of trinitarian theology. The essence of true Christianity is not that different from Islam in the way a person ought ot live. Both put weight on what a person does, but esentially we both recognize that God is merciful and just, and sees into the heart, and ultimately see that all people depend on God's mercy.

 

The big difference (as it looks to me) is that Islam insists that people stand on their own before God, while Christians see that as a sure way to go to hell. We believe our own efforts will never be sufficient to match God's holiness. Both old and new testaments make heavy use of the idea of sacrifice, or substitutionary death. I don't think Islam has an equivalent. Now many Christians make the mistake in believing that the cross is a "get out of hell free" card, and since their sins are forgiven, their actions don't matter. Nothing could be further from the truth!

 

Salvation in Christianity is an exchange. We believe that Jesus was accepted as a perfect sin offering to satisfy the wrath of God against sin and unrighteousness. We believe Jesus is also the model of what a Christian life should look like. So the exchange is this, we give up our lives and unrighteousness--die figuratively on the cross--and Jesus imparts to us his life and his righteousness. It is no longer "me" who lives, but Christ in me. My priorities are now God's priorities, expressed through Jesus. Unfortunately, I have to unlearn many habits and concepts while learning new Godly ones. I am slowly transformed into a likeness of Jesus, not perfectly, but life becomes the transformation of a person that is more and more surrendered to God.

 

What does that mature Christian look like? He is growing in love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

 

We believe that as we stand before God on the last day, Jesus will claim us as his own, and the proof will be that we will bear a likeness to him in our spirits. A person who says the words but does not act on them is fooling himself. Faith without works is dead. And then God Himself will complete our transformation, so that we are fit to spend eternity in His presence.

 

So in answer to your question, regardless of what a person believes about the trinity, if they look to Jesus as the source of their righteousness, believe in his resurrection, and work out their salvation in thought, word AND deed, they will be saved.

 

God bless you all!

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Peace all,

 

And also upon you

 

The big difference (as it looks to me) is that Islam insists that people stand on their own before God, while Christians see that as a sure way to go to hell. We believe our own efforts will never be sufficient to match God's holiness. Both old and new testaments make heavy use of the idea of sacrifice, or substitutionary death. I don't think Islam has an equivalent. Now many Christians make the mistake in believing that the cross is a "get out of hell free" card, and since their sins are forgiven, their actions don't matter. Nothing could be further from the truth!

 

In Islam faith gets you to Heaven. God will purify those who believe, as He he has promised. In Islam the sacrifice is belief, obedience and repentance just like it is the in the Old Testament:

 

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. (1 Samuel 15:22)

 

Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips. (Hosea 14:2)

 

For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. (Psalm 51:16)

 

By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil. (Provers 16:6)

 

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. (2 Chronicles 7:13)

 

There is no need for anybody to die when God forgives your sins, and on top of that, if you repent, God turns your sins into good deeds! Truely, He is the Merciful.

 

God bless you all!

 

Likewise.

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Peace Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz,

 

To obey is better than sacrifice.

 

On this we agree completely! w00t!

 

Great post!

 

These are wonder scriptures, and one of the lessons from them is to not trust in dry, dead ceremony to save us. God requires a living faith. Let me ask you, in order to buy myself some time (or distract me utterly) do Muslims believe that Abraham and the other early prophets offered sacrifices? If so, what purpose did it serve?

 

[must...get...back...to work]

 

God bless you all.

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Peace Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz,

 

And also upon you

 

Yes, sacrifices were offered since the time of Adam(pbuh). Abraham(pbuh) presented his firstborn, Ismael(pbuh), as a sacrifice. The sacrifices served various purposes like in the case of Abraham(pbuh) it was a test of obedience; in the case of two sons of Adam(pbuh), Cain and Abel, it served as a means to know whom God had favoured; today it serves as a means of charity to the poor, and it also serves as a means of repentance and of showing gratitude towards God.

Edited by Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz

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Basic Beliefs: Christian versus Muslim

 

The path to salvation

 

1) What Christians Believe:

 

If you have faith in the atonement of Jesus for the sin of Adam which you have inherited then you shall be saved. You only need faith. No work is necessary.

 

2) What Muslims Believe:

 

If you have faith in God, believe in His messengers, and obey His commands then He shall multiply every single good deed that you do many, many times and erase your evil deeds, until on the Day of Judgment His mercy shall cause your good deeds to far outweigh your evil deeds and grant you passage into an ecstasy and Paradise so great that we can not even imagine it, to abide there eternally. In the Hereafter there is only reward and no work.

 

The explanation that the Quran gives about the necessity of life after death is what the moral consciousness of man demands. Actually, if there is no life after death, the very belief in God becomes meaningless or even if one believes in God, it would be n unjust and indifferent God, having once created man and now not being concerned with his fate.

 

Surely, God is just. He will punish the tyrants, whose crimes are beyond count - having tortured and killed hundreds or thousands of innocent people, created great corruption in society, enslaved numerous persons to serve their whims, etc., because man has a very short life span in this world and because numerous individuals are affected by one’s actions, adequate punishments and rewards are not possible in this life. The Quran very emphatically states that the Day of Judgment must come and that God will decide the fate of each soul according to his or her record of deeds:

 

But those who disbelieve say, “The Hour (i.e. the Day of Judgment) will not come to us.” Say, “Yes, by my Lord, it will surely come to you. [God is] the Knower of the unseen.” Not absent from Him is an atom’s weight within the heavens or within the earth or [what is] smaller than that or greater, except that it is in a clear register - That He may reward those who believe and do righteous deeds. Those will have forgiveness and noble provision. But those who strive against Our verses [seeking] to cause failure (i.e. to undermine their credibility) - for them will be a painful punishment of foul nature. (Quran, 34:3-5)

 

The Day of Resurrection will be the Day when God’s attributes of Justice and Mercy will be in full manifestation. God will shower His mercy on those who suffered for His sake in the worldly life, believing that an eternal bliss was awaiting them. But those who abused the bounties of God, caring nothing for the life to come, will be in the most miserable state. Drawing a comparison between them, the Quran says:

 

Then is he whom We have promised a good promise which he will meet [i.e. obtain] like he for whom We provided enjoyment of worldly life [but] then he is, on the Day of Resurrection, among those presented [for punishment in Hell]? (Quran, 28:61)

 

The Quran also states that this worldly life is a preparation for the eternal life after death. But those who deny it become slaves of their passions and desires, making fun of virtuous and God-conscious persons.

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There are so many Christians ,Christian websites , media etc claiming falsely that Jesus is God. And the Christians even worship a man (Jesus) as their 'God' thus they reject Allah the One True God who was worshiped by Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad (peace and bless upon them) etc (see Acts 3:13).

 

If we read the Bible, we will find Biblical verses that state Jesus as a servant of God:

For example, according to Acts 3:26 Peter's second sermon and Acts 3:13 , Jesus is a servant of God according to NASB, GWT, ASV, BBE, DBY, WEY etc.

 

Why do you Christians worship a servant of God? Why don't you worship Allah (God) who had created Jesus as one of His great servants? We Muslims worship Allah and we do not worship His servants!

 

Quran 19:30

He (Jesus) said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;

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