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peace all,

 

would the board Christians accept that this quote from the Bible:

 

John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the father except through me."

 

is ultimately the core of the Christian religion?

 

that this verse along with the higher morality given in the Sermon on the Mount are the core elements of what defines the Christian religion?

 

 

or what would you add to it?

 

please don't be afraid to respond, i am not looking for an argument, but a discussion.

 

 

peace and love. :sl:

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PropellerAds

That is what Christianity should be all about.

 

No one can get into the Kingdom of God, except through Jesus.

 

Jesus' sermon on the mount in Matthew 5 is the penultimate way a Christian should live.

 

Galatians 5:22-23 says that the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, kindness, and self-control.

 

A Christian should exhibit all of these behaviors as well, but this follows from the Sermon on the Mount.

 

Only through Jesus, can we exhibit all of these behaviors, however. We cannot do it on our own.

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I would add a belief in the Resurrection as fundamental to Christian belief, and the belief in Jesus as fully man-fully God as well as everything mentioned above.

Deus Vobiscum

Peter

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peace all, i asked the above question for a reason, and now i will demonstrate that reason.

 

the Christian religion as it was originally set-up is a 'mystery religion', what this means is that its teachings were not open for all, but were concealed within layers of meaning, the inner meanings only slowly being peeled away as one is initiated further. This is distinct from open religions such as Buddhism, where the teachings are available for everyone.

 

this you can argue against, but wait till you have read the whole post please, as i will give evidence for this.

 

the aim for me in making this thread is not to destroy, or even weaken your faith, christians who read this, although you will feel sorely tested during its reading. It will in fact strengthen your faith, if you follow it through to the end, and you will come out the other side with a much stronger grasp of your religion, although it will probably not be quite the same religion as when you started reading.

 

sound portentous - or even pretentious?

 

wait and see.

 

John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the father except through me."

 

First of all, i will give some knowledge of the Qabbalah. The 'christ centre' or TPRTh (Tiphereth), located in the solar plexus, the balanced centre of an awakened man, has to be gone through to reach the crown, KTR (Kether), the link to the Godhood. This is pure Qaballistic teaching, and either jesus was a Qabbalist (if so likely learned at qumran, the essenes), or else these phrases were put in there later on by Qaballist educated disciples/editors.

 

i will quote some of dion fortune's fantastic book 'the mystical Qaballah', unfortunately to fully grasp the structure (and thus logic) the whole tree needs to be studied. But you might get an idea of why i'm referring to it.

 

i will try to explain the terms and ideas, but please remember i am no experienced Qabbalist, i have simply grasped the ideas, and will present them to you directly. Remember, the Tree of Life (Qabbalah) is only a model of reality, it is a structure that Qaballists use to organise, and thus explain, reality. It is not that 'This Is', it is 'This can be modelled as'.

 

first, a couple of diagrams (tiphereth is no. 6, the centre)

 

######you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgeocities(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/Paris/Cafe/1200/pic/tree.gif[/img]

 

######you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgeocities(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/nisetar/treegodforms.gif[/img]

 

 

from (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetamazon.co.uk/Mystical-Qabalah-Dion-Fortune/dp/1578631505/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/202-2542428-5045446?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187294664&sr=8-1"]dion fortune's Mystical Qabbalah[/url]:

 

 

MAGICAL IMAGE: A majestic king. A child. A sacrificed god. [see paragraph 66]

 

 

8. In Tiphareth we find the archetypal ideals brought to a focus and transmuted into

archetypal ideas. It is, in fact, the Place of Incarnation. For this reason it is called the

Child. And because incarnation of the god-ideal also implies the sacrificial

disincarnation, to Tiphareth are assigned the Mysteries of the Crucifixion, and all the

Sacrificed Gods are placed here when the Tree is applied to the pantheons. God the

Father is assigned to Kether; but God the Son is assigned to Tiphareth for the reasons

given above.

 

 

10. In Tiphareth God is made manifest in form and dwells among us; i.e. comes within

range of human consciousness. Tiphareth, the Son, "shows us" Kether, the Father.

11. In order that form may be stabilised, the component forces out of which it is built

must be brought into equllibrium. Therefore do we find the idea of the Mediator, or

Redeemer, inherent in this Sephirah. When the Godhead in its very Self manifests in

form, that form must be perfectly equilibrated. One might with equal truth reverse the

proposition and say that when the forces building a form are perfectly equilibrated, the

Godhead its very Self is manifesting in that form according to its type. God is made

manifest arnong us when the conditions permit of manifestation.

 

 

 

12. Having come through into manifestation on the planes of form in the Child aspect of

Tiphareth, the incarnated god grows to manhood and becomes the Redeemer. In other

words, having obtained incarnation by means of matter in a virgin state, i.e. Mary, Marah,

the Sea, the Great Mother, Binah, a Supernal, as distinguished from the Inferior Mother,

Malkuth, the developing God-manifestation, is for ever striving to bring the Kingdom of

the six central Sephiroth into a state of equilibrium.

 

 

16. It is this Sphere on the Tree that is called the Christ-centre, and it is here that the

Christian religion has its focussing-point. The pantheistic faiths, such as the Greek and

Egyptian, centre in Yes od; and the metaphysical faiths, such as the Buddhist and

Confucian, aim at Kether. But as all religions worthy of the name have both an esoteric,

or mystical, and an exoteric, or pantheistic, aspect, Christianity, although it is essentially

a Tiphareth faith, has its mystical aspect centring in Kether, and its magical aspect, as seen in popular continental Catholicism, centring in

Yesod. Its evangelical aspect aims at a concentration on Tiphareth as Child and

Sacrificed God, and ignores the aspect of the King in the centre of his Kingdom,

surrounded by the five Holy Sephiroth of manifestation.

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20. The different additional titles and symbolism assigned to the various Sephiroth, and

especially the God-names thereof, give us a very important key for the unlocking of the

mysteries of the Bible, which is essentially a Qabalistic book. According to the manner in

which Deity is referred to, we know to what Sphere on the Tree the particular mode of

manifestation should be assigned. All references to the Son always refer to Tiphareth; all

references to the Father refer to Kether; all references to the Holy Ghost refer to Yesod;

and very deep mysteries are concealed here, for the Holy Ghost is the aspect of the

Godhead that is worshipped in the occult lodges; the worship of pantheistic nature-forces

and elemental operations take place under the presidency of God the Father; and the

regenerative ethical aspect of religion, which is the exoteric aspect for this epoch, is

under the presidency of God the Son in Fiphareth.

 

 

33. Those who are familiar with Qabalistic terminology know that the first of the greater

initiations is said to consist of the power to enjoy the knowledge and conversation of our

Holy Guardian Angel; this Holy Guardian Angel, be it remembered, is really our own

higher self. It is the prime characteristic of this higher mode of mentation that it consists

neither in voices nor visions, but is pure consciousness; it is an intensification of

awareness, and from this quickening of the mind comes a peculiar power of insight and

penetration which is of the nature of hyper-developed intuition. The higher consciousness

is never psychic, but always intuitive, containing no sensory imagery. It is this absence of

sensory imagery which tells the experienced initiate that he is on the level of the higher

consciousness.

 

 

 

65. The three Magical Images of Tiphareth are curious, for at first sight they are so utterly

unrelated that each one appears to cancel out the others. But in the light of what we now

know concerning Tiphareth, their significance and relationship appears clearly, speaking

through the language of symbolism, especially when studied in the light of the life of

Jesus Christ the Son.

 

 

 

66. Tiphareth, being the first coagulation of the Supernals, is aptly represented as the

new-born Child in the manger at Bethlehem; as the Sacrificed God he becomes the

Mediator between God and man; and when He has risen from the dead fie is as a king

come to his kingdom. Tiphareth is the child of Kether and the king of Malkuth, and in His own sphere lie is sacrificed.

 

 

 

80. The Mysteries of the Crucifixion are both macrocosmic and microcosmic. In their

macrocosmic aspect we find them in the myths of the Great Redeemers of mankind, who

are always born of God and a Virgin mother, thus again emphasising the dual nature of

Tiphareth, wherein form and force meet together. But let us not forget their microcosmic aspect, as an experience of mystical consciousness. It is by means of an understanding of

the Mysteries of the Crucifixion, which concern the magical power of sacrifice, that we

are able to transcend the limitations of brain consciousness, limited to sensation and

habituated to form, and enter into the wider consciousness of the higher psychism. We

thus become able to transcend form and thereby release the latent force, changing it from

static to kinetic and rendering it available for the Great Work, which is regeneration.

 

 

81. The characteristic virtue of the Sphere of Tiphareth is Devotion to this Great Work.

Devotion is a very important factor in the Way of Initiation that leads to the higher

consciousness, and we must therefore examine it carefully and analyse it into the factors

of which it consists. Devotion might be defined as love for something higher than

ourselves; something that evokes our idealism; which, while we despair of becoming

equal to it, yet makes us aspire to become like it; "Beholding as in a glass the glory of the

Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory." When a stronger emotional

content is infused into devotion and it becomes adoration, it carries us across the great

gulf fixed between the tangible and the intangible, and enables us to apprehend things

that eye hath not seen, nor ear heard. It is this Devotion, rising to Adoration, in the Great

Work, which initiates us into the Mysteries of the Crucifixion.

 

 

82. The Vice assigned to Tiphareth is Pride, and in this attribution we have some very

true psychology. Pride has its roots in egoism, and as long as we are self-centred we

Cannot be made one with all things. In the true selflessness of the Path the soul overflows

its boundaries and enters into all things through limitless sympathy and perfect love; but

in pride the soul tries to extend its boundaries till it possesses all things, and it is a very

different matter to possess a thing to being made one with it, wherein it equally possesses

us in Perfect reciprocity. It is this one-sided arrangement which is the vice of the adept. He must give as well as receive, and he must give himself

unreservedly if he would participate in mystical union, which is the fruit of the sacrifice

of crucifixion. "Let him who would be the greatest among you be the servant of all," said

Our Lord.

 

the full chapter is (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetutopia-politics(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/forums/index.php?showtopic=29842&hl=kabbalah"]here[/url].

 

-----------------------

 

if you have made it this far, and i already respect you for doing that, then here is the next step on the voyage:

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetwilsonsalmanac(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/jesus_similar.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetwilsonsalmanac(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/jesus_similar.html[/url]

 

 

reeling? There is more yet to come, but i will await some replies before continuing, please - even if you reject everything i have given here, then do not reply out of anger, but ask the honest questions or comments in your heart.

 

i hope you have enjoyed this slightly deeper exploration of the christian religion than is normally available.

 

 

peace, and love. :sl:

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Salaams peeps,

 

Interesting. So which of these religions were prevelant in the Roman empire during or shortly after the time of Jesus?

 

Peace

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salaam,

 

i don't understand your question Josh, can you be more specific?

 

 

peace amd love. :sl:

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Salaams peeps,

 

Sorry, let me try again.

 

The links and sources you gave show that the concepts in Christianity are not unique, and that strikingly similar ideas existed in other religions before the time of Jesus. The implication being that Christianity has many of its roots in Pagan religions. So my question was which of the religions/deities were prevelant amongst the Romans during the time of Jesus. Meaning, which one had the most influence on the Christian doctrine.

 

Hope that made sense..... :sl:

 

Peace

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salaam josh, now i understand.

 

there are two elements to your question, one is a question about which of the various religions had influences upon the devlopment of christianity, i am afraid i don't have enough solid information on this to answer, and feel confident in my answer. I used to be in contact with someone who could help you on this, unfortunately we lost touch, sorry. I think its a HUGE area though, and would take a serious in-depth study.

 

the second element is that you assume that i meant that Christianity had 'taken' the ideas about the 'self-sacrifice' from other religions - this was not my aim at all, in fact. Again, it is a very complicated area, and as i am still learning its far more complicated than i had previously assumed, from experiences in the last few years. My main aim however is to show that these elements (self-sacrifice), are jungian archetypes, and have been valid across many cultures and many times, not that they were just lifted from one religion into another.

 

the qaballah in this respect is magnificent - it allows virtually all religions and beleif systems to be mapped out on the same glyph, the Tree of Life, and is absolutely essential reading to understand the beleif structures themselves.

 

as i said at the beginning, my aim was not to destroy the faith of any chriastians that read it, more to give greater depth and understanding to them.

 

whilst upon the surface it might appear to strike at the heart of christian beliefs, in fact it does not.

 

i hope that answered your questions at least a little bit,

 

 

peace and love. :sl:

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Salaams peeps,

 

That's okay. I was familiar with some of these ideas before but was curious as to which of these religions contributed most to the development of the Christian doctrine.

 

the second element is that you assume that i meant that Christianity had 'taken' the ideas about the 'self-sacrifice' from other religions - this was not my aim at all, in fact.

 

Perhaps. But whether these ideas were 'taken' or if they were slowly integrated into the religion is besides the point; if concepts in Christianity were not Divinely revealed then they are false. Christians would agree with me (I think). Even though your intentions were not to show that certain ideas originated in other religions, the evidence you've presented suggests otherwise.

 

My main aim however is to show that these elements (self-sacrifice), are jungian archetypes, and have been valid across many cultures and many times, not that they were just lifted from one religion into another.

 

I agree that this is true of Pagan religions. But for Christian doctrine to be true, it cannot follow Jung's archetype theory. What makes any religion "correct" is that it is unique and has Divine origin. The atonement is something that Christians hold sacred and believe it was the climax of Prophethood - amazing and unique. If details such as self-sacrifice, virgin birth, rebirth and celebrations on Dec 25th are archetypes then it takes some of the shine off Christianity. Perhaps not enough to invalidate Christianity, but certainly enough to question the origins of the doctrine.

 

the qaballah in this respect is magnificent - it allows virtually all religions and beleif systems to be mapped out on the same glyph, the Tree of Life, and is absolutely essential reading to understand the beleif structures themselves.

 

I don't want to hijack this thread but how would you apply the Tree of Life to Islam?

 

Peace

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peace,

 

i was hoping to get some feedback from christians on this as well!!

 

 

Perhaps. But whether these ideas were 'taken' or if they were slowly integrated into the religion is besides the point; if concepts in Christianity were not Divinely revealed then they are false. Christians would agree with me (I think). Even though your intentions were not to show that certain ideas originated in other religions, the evidence you've presented suggests otherwise.

 

i understand why you say so, but personally i disagree.

 

since Pythagoras, mathematicians have perceived the 'eternal' nature of mathematics to be the 'language of God', which would to some extent make Pythagoras to be the Prophet of such, as he revealed these truths. But Pythagoras did not create all from nothing, in the simplest sense he used symbols already extant, created by others, he used mathematical structures that had already been *discovered* by others (ie revealed).

 

for mathematicians, this does not in any way invalidate Pythagoras's prophethood, as they believe that Maths existed *before* human's 'discovered/revealed' it, they are not the sole property of one person, one group or one cult, they are the property of all the universe to appreciate.

 

therefore it does not matter that other groups and individuals had been previously discovered, what mattered what was the internal consistency of the revelations, the equations. THIS is the proof of the 'religion', and this is the only true test of any 'eternal' system, else it is just a matter of beleif, of frankly a mere cult.

 

were Islam just a collection of vaguely connected laws and sayings, would the Qoran be as admirable?

 

the problem with christianity is precisely this: that the original teachings of Jesus were lost when rome hunted down and slaughtered the disciples, and all that was left was just vaguely connected sayings and oral history. BUT - the message (exemplified by the sermon on the mount) of Jesus did survive, and it is upon this that christianity has always rested, much as the Buddhist religion has always rested upon the moral message and teachings of Guatama.

 

i feel you are answering from the perspective of a muslim, in your criticism here.

 

 

I agree that this is true of Pagan religions. But for Christian doctrine to be true, it cannot follow Jung's archetype theory. What makes any religion "correct" is that it is unique and has Divine origin. The atonement is something that Christians hold sacred and believe it was the climax of Prophethood - amazing and unique. If details such as self-sacrifice, virgin birth, rebirth and celebrations on Dec 25th are archetypes then it takes some of the shine off Christianity. Perhaps not enough to invalidate Christianity, but certainly enough to question the origins of the doctrine.

 

the doctrine as taught by the large churches has *always* been flawed, as it was designed to be a patriarchal power structure. But THAT is not the core of the message of Jesus anyway, he would have been appalled and disgusted by what was enacted in his name, as the inner teachings of christianity were always that the individual could make the same journey to morality and enlightenment as Jesus himself did, or at least to a point. I very much doubt he ever put himself upon a pedestal and claimed sole Godhood, that was for the benefit of the later priesthood who spotted a chance to ensure their own continued power-base, living it easy while the people struggled and slaved to pay money to the Church.

 

"The meek shall inherit the Earth".

 

NOT the priests, or the rulers, but the normal person who wishes to devote themselves to following the path of morality and enlightenment.

 

Is there actually any true spirituality that disagrees with this premise? Is there any culture in any time that has not had a moral reformer who teaches precisely this, that to achieve personal enlightenment all that is required is the individual gives up the desire to rule other others, gives up the desires for great material wealth, devotes themselves to good works, reestablishes the Ego in its proper place *below* the Self?

 

no, the fact that so many other cultures have also experienced this understanding, not only in no way removes the Revelatory element of this insight, but actually by showing its Eternal and Universal aspect, strengthens it.

 

of course, yes the wider understanding of this will indeed harm the established churches (except such churches as the Quakers, who have managed to keep/create a community based very much on the original essence of Jesus's teachings), but as the established churches are in virtually all respects the exact antithesis of real christianity, that is all to the good as far as i am concerned, as it is only from such false churches being harmed that the real message can come through.

 

I don't want to hijack this thread but how would you apply the Tree of Life to Islam?

 

i am aware that there are some scholars who have indeed applied the ToL to Islam, however i have not read them, nor am i experienced enough in either Islam nor indeed the ToL itself, to even begin such a task myself.

 

i am not copping out, and if someone else can actually find such a work, i would be interested to read it.

 

and again, i would like to hear some christian comments upon this?

 

 

peace and love. :sl:

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Salaam,

 

All too much of a high level for me, I'm afraid. Will read again when feeling a little less fragile :sl:

 

Peace and Love,

 

DARLA

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no problems darla, whenever you feel up to it! : :sl:

 

 

peace and love. :sl:

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Peace from our Lord,

 

The links and sources you gave show that the concepts in Christianity are not unique, and that strikingly similar ideas existed in other religions before the time of Jesus.

The Qabbala is no pagan religion, but a Jewish religious movement.

Most of the Qabbala teaching was devoped in the middle ages, so any similarities between Qabbalah and Christian doctrines are either borrowed from Christianity into Qabbalistic speculatiions, or are parallel developments from a common source (Old Testament).

 

As to the the theory that e.g. the concept that Jesus was born by a virgin is pagan: this "pagan concept" is shared by Islam, so we have at least one "pagan concept" in the Qor'an. And given the loose method employed at that site to find parallels, it would not very difficiult to find "pagan concepts" in Islam that are not part of Christian teaching.

 

I would prefer to leave out this kind of pagan propaganda altogether.

 

The implication being that Christianity has many of its roots in Pagan religions.

Yes, this is the implication some pagans want us to draw. Other pagans may point out that the "stone-veneration" at the hajj is basically "pagan", or whatever else they want to call parallels.

 

Meaning, which one had the most influence on the Christian doctrine.

No important question, the "influence" is so small that it cannot be measured. Despite some superficial parallels, the roots of Christian teaching is Jewish.

 

Maybe some later theology was pagan-influenced. The reformation (Luther, Calvin, etc.) has wiped out much pagan influence out of Christian churches (even out of the Catholic church, in the long run).

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the problem with christianity is precisely this: that the original teachings of Jesus were lost when rome hunted down and slaughtered the disciples, and all that was left was just vaguely connected sayings and oral history.

Definitely wrong. The first persecution of Chritians by Romans was restricted to the city of Rome and lasted only a few years, then Nero was overthrown and the Christians enjoyed freedom as before the Fire of Rome. The next time Christians were persecuted by Romans the whole New Testament had already been written.

 

You can find the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels, not just in the sermon on the mount, but everywhere. The Gospel of John was written by an eye-witness.

 

the doctrine as taught by the large churches has *always* been flawed,

What are "large churches"? The answer to that question is different for different countries.

 

I'm not prepared to defend the doctrine of any church, but if you attack the words of our Lord, things are different.

 

as the inner teachings of christianity were always that the individual could make the same journey to morality and enlightenment as Jesus himself did, or at least to a point.

Thats not what Jesus said.

He offered forgiveness for those who knew they wewre sinners, and He provided the means for that:

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

. 45 ÃóÃóÊøóì ÇÈúäõ ÇáÅöäúÓóÇäö ÞóÃú ÌóÇÃó áÇó áöíõÎúÃóãó¡ Èóáú áöíóÎúÃöãó æóíóÈúÃöáó äóÃúÓóåõ ÃöÃúíóÉð Úóäú ßóËöíÑöíäó».

 

I very much doubt he ever put himself upon a pedestal and claimed sole Godhood, that was for the benefit of the later priesthood who spotted a chance to ensure their own continued power-base,

The New Testament (NT) is approx. 100 years older than the priesthood you complaint about. And they did not dare to change things in the NT which contradicted their teaching, as can be seeen by comparing the old manuscripts with later ones.

 

Is there actually any true spirituality that disagrees with this premise? Is there any culture in any time that has not had a moral reformer who teaches precisely this, that to achieve personal enlightenment all that is required is the individual gives up the desire to rule other others, gives up the desires for great material wealth, devotes themselves to good works, reestablishes the Ego in its proper place *below* the Self?

There are cultures who do not look for "personal enlightment". The core of the Gospel ist personal salvation by Christ (not by priests). Many cultures with a shamanistic religion center neither on enlightment nor on salvation, but on power obtained by rituals. In the tropical forests of South America, we know of no "moral reformer" who corrected this, neither in tribes with a shamanist caste, nor in tribes where everybody performs such rituals.

 

of course, yes the wider understanding of this will indeed harm the established churches (except such churches as the Quakers, who have managed to keep/create a community based very much on the original essence of Jesus's teachings)

managed to keep? Quakers started as a movement that accepted the Bible as true, if there are now friends that do not accept the Bible, this is a later development and by no means original.

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gnuneo,

 

If you're trying to say that Christianity pulled its teachings from other religions, that would be where you're wrong.

 

Christianity is the natural extension to Old Testament Judaism. Jesus is the fulfillment of the law as listed in the Old Testament. All that Jesus taught and said could be found in the Old Testament. All the rituals and sacrifices pointed to Jesus.

 

When Jesus said to Love God and love your neighbor, he was summarizing the 10 commandments.

When He said that He was the only way, he was referencing the fact that in the Old Testament, the only way for purification of sins was through the spotless lamb offered on the day of atonement. Jesus was that final spotless lamb offered as the only way to God the Father.

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gnuneo,

 

If you're trying to say that Christianity pulled its teachings from other religions, that would be where you're wrong.

 

Christianity is the natural extension to Old Testament Judaism. Jesus is the fulfillment of the law as listed in the Old Testament. All that Jesus taught and said could be found in the Old Testament. All the rituals and sacrifices pointed to Jesus.

 

When Jesus said to Love God and love your neighbor, he was summarizing the 10 commandments.

When He said that He was the only way, he was referencing the fact that in the Old Testament, the only way for purification of sins was through the spotless lamb offered on the day of atonement. Jesus was that final spotless lamb offered as the only way to God the Father.

Why do/did most of the Jews reject Jesus, Christians and the Christian Bible?

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Peace from our Lord,

Why do/did most of the Jews reject Jesus, Christians and the Christian Bible?

Looking to the NT, we can see the following reason:

1.Corinthians 1,22: »Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling-block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God«

22

ÅöÃú Åöäøó ÇáúíóåõæÃó íóØúáõÈõæäó ÂíóÇÊò¡ æóÇáúíõæäóÇäöíøöíäó íóÈúÃóËõæäó Úóäö ÇáúÃößúãóÉö. 23 æóáßöäøóäóÇ äóÃúäõ äõÈóÔøöÑõ ÈöÇáúãóÓöíÃö ãóÕúáõæÈÇð¡ ãöãøóÇ íõÔóßøöáõ ÚóÇÆöÞÇð ÚöäúÃó ÇáúíóåõæÃö æóÌóåóÇáóÉð ÚöäúÃó ÇáÃõãóãöº 24 æóÃóãøóÇ ÚöäúÃó ÇáúãóÃúÚõæøöíäó¡ ÓóæóÇÃñ ãöäó ÇáúíóåõæÃö Ãóæö ÇáúíõæäóÇäöíøöíäó¡ ÃóÅöäøó ÇáúãóÓöíÃó åõæó ÞõÃúÑó Éõ Çááåö æóÃößúãóÉõ Çááåö.

Helmut

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Peace from our Lord,

Yes, this is the implication some pagans want us to draw. Other pagans may point out that the "stone-veneration" at the hajj is basically "pagan", or whatever else they want to call parallels.

To clear a misunderstanding: I wrote this to show the weakness of the pagan arguments that had been brought forth against my faith, and the short-sightedness of the attempt to use these pagan arguments.

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peace,

 

The Qabbala is no pagan religion, but a Jewish religious movement.

 

actually, the Qabalah, especially the Tree of Life glyph which is its core, is a meditation/scientific/philosophical/spiritual system that is far larger and more encompassing than the Jewish religion, and indeed the various gnostic movements that have spawned from it have largely been rejected by jewish orthodoxy.

 

and the Tree of Life utilises astrology, tarot, as well as being in ultimate conformity with Taoist/buddhist theology.

 

jewish? Only because that is the branch that best managed to survive the various 'witch-hunts' by religious authorities throughout the ages.

 

Most of the Qabbala teaching was devoped in the middle ages, so any similarities between Qabbalah and Christian doctrines are either borrowed from Christianity into Qabbalistic speculatiions, or are parallel developments from a common source (Old Testament).

 

indeed, much of modern Qabalistic thought was developed in the middle ages and into modern times. Much of western general philosophical thought was also developed then, and also in modern times. I'm sure therefore plato, aristotle, heraklitus, and pythagorus would be happy to learn that "philosphy" is now purely from the middle ages and later. [sighs]

 

As to the the theory that e.g. the concept that Jesus was born by a virgin is pagan: this "pagan concept" is shared by Islam, so we have at least one "pagan concept" in the Qor'an. And given the loose method employed at that site to find parallels, it would not very difficiult to find "pagan concepts" in Islam that are not part of Christian teaching.

 

try not to let your parochial feelings get in the way of your studies. The simple fact is that in many systems, there is born a God of virgin birth, who is sacrificed, and rises again after 3 days. As i was at pains to point out, this *doesn't* mean that the story of Jesus's life is entirely mythic, not even that this part of his 'myth' is fictional.

I would prefer to leave out this kind of pagan propaganda altogether.

 

i would prefer you spent a little more time thinking before attacking what has not even been said.

 

again: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetwilsonsalmanac(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/jesus_similar.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetwilsonsalmanac(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/jesus_similar.html[/url]

 

peace and love. :sl:

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Peace from our Lord,

actually, the Qabalah, especially the Tree of Life glyph which is its core, is a meditation/scientific/philosophical/spiritual system that is far larger and more encompassing than the Jewish religion, and indeed the various gnostic movements that have spawned from it have largely been rejected by jewish orthodoxy.

What you call "Qabbalah" is commonly called "Gnosticism". Qabbalah (as I have seeen this word) is used for a Jewish movement, that has many gnostic traits and is not very orthodox.

 

The Gnostic idea is older than Christianity. About 100 years ago, some researchers, seeing the similarities between Gnosticism and Christianity, speculated that some ideas in Christianity were borrowed from Gnosticism. But further research has meanwhile shown is was the other way round: the parralels to Christianity appeared only after the Christian faith spread around. In my mother tongue German, some historians therefore differentiate between pre-Christian "Gnostizismus" and later "Gnostik", whether there is a similar pair of English terms I don't know.

 

So your parallels between your "Qabbalah" (i.e. Gnosticism) and Christianity are simply explained by borrowings from the Christians.

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peace,

actually, the Qabalah, especially the Tree of Life glyph which is its core, is a meditation/scientific/philosophical/spiritual system that is far larger and more encompassing than the Jewish religion, and indeed the various gnostic movements that have spawned from it have largely been rejected by jewish orthodoxy.

 

and the Tree of Life utilises astrology, tarot, as well as being in ultimate conformity with Taoist/buddhist theology.

 

Whats interesting is that king Ashoka of India sent Buddhist missionaires to Egypt and Palestine in 256 BCE. Theravada monasteries flourished there 200 years prior to Christ. (if he existed) Christian Lindtner MA Indian philology PHD Buddhist studies argues quite successfully that the entire NT is a pirated version of Buddhist scriptures.

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Whats interesting is that king Ashoka of India sent Buddhist missionaires to Egypt and Palestine in 256 BCE.

This sounds like a legend, do you have any evidence that this is more than a reaction to colonialism?

 

There was some Eastern (Buddhist or Hinduist) influence to the West, even before 256 BC. You can see it in Plato ...

 

Theravada monasteries flourished there 200 years prior to Christ.

Most of 256 to 56 BC the Maccabees ruled over Palestine and either forced pagans to convert to Judaism or drove them out. Surely, no "Theravada monasteries" could survive long in that time. As to Palestine, we can definitely rule out this possibility. As to Egypt, I'm no expert, but I strongly doubt that.

 

(if he existed) Christian Lindtner MA Indian philology PHD

Your Freudian slip is right: we have reasons to doubt whether this Lindner ever existed :sl: It seems he doesn't know much about Palestine history, he either ignores the facts or distorts them. Maybe he took the so-called Essenes of Qumran as "Buddhist monks". But their predisposition for Biblical text, their strong apocalyptic beliefs, in a word their whole "theology" is not Buddhist, but Jewish.

 

As to Christ, He is attested in history, the first document that mentioned His death on the cross and the resurrection was composed less than 20 years after that. The first detailed description of His ministry on earth less about 30 years after, or less than 40 years (to be on the safe side). Well, the first biography of Muhammad was composed about 120 years after his death, and no-one (apart from some obnoxious German scholars) doubt his existence... If we compare to the Buddha .. well, did he really exist? :sl:

 

Buddhist studies argues quite successfully that the entire NT is a pirated version of Buddhist scriptures.

OK lets look into the NT:

  1. There is only one God, the God of Abraham, Isaak and Jacob
  2. Apart from miracles, dead people don't return, "every man dies only once and will then be judged by God" (in the day of resurrection)
  3. There is only one person by whom we can be rescued from the just wrath of God, Jesus Christ, who will return to judge those who rejected the offer to be saved by Him
  4. To do good things, or to train yourself by meditation, fasting etc. is no way of deliverance. You have to believe in the grace of God.

Looks like a pirated version of Buddhism, eh?

 

Even in trifling things we can see differences: in Matthew 6:7 we can read that prayer wheeels are nonsense (the verse does not mention prayer wheels, for they were unknown in Palestine, but the inference is drawn easily).

 

The only parallels are in a field where most religions converge more or less - ethics. Not in the core of the faith.

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