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Frank

If I Was A Malaevolent/mischievious God

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That's my point. No 'proof' is available to distinguish between a world ruled by a benign monotheist god and a world under the sway of a mischievious god from poytheist system who wanted to fool humans into adopting a monotheist religion. You can even imagine an Olympian scene from a Greek comedy in which the gods debate just what sort of silly things they could get humans to believe in and to die for - such as not eating cows.

 

And what are you preaching, that Greek gods or godesses exist? Really, now.

 

Which still begs the question; why would it take a malevolent and mischievious thing to ban all of those things that you, as a person, believe should not be banned but that Islam forbids. Seems like you're letting your personal beliefs affect your little scenario; as you've demonstrated repeatedly in other topics, it would be nothing more than a "nasty trick" for such things to be forbidden.

 

Salam.

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Yasnov, you old silly, I don't believe that polytheism and a world ruled by a mischievous god is the true state of affairs.

So, you are not sure with what you believe, but you try to debate me over things that I am 100% convinced, Frank?

 

I have no way of knowing whether it is or not. I also think that YOU have no way of knowing, and yet you claim to. I'm curious about that.

I engage my hearts and conscience, so I know because I feel and sense it. It works the same way like animal instinct ... But in Islam we call it Fitrah. The ability to feel God is there whether you like it or not. It's how you use it.

 

(Another aside - Yasnov I don't know where you got the idea that you have to believe in something to debate it. Evidence is evidence.)

What?

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

Edited by Yasnov

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How he would debate and convince us of his polytheism theory if he himself cannot feel even one of the many gods himself.

 

Look up 'hypothesis'. No-one has actually attempted an answer to the question 'How would you know if a god was fooling you?'

 

I engage my hearts and conscience, so I know because I feel and sense it. It works the same way like animal instinct ... But in Islam we call it Fitrah. The ability to feel God is there whether you like it or not. It's how you use it.

 

Fair enough but I'm sure that (for example and my apologies if I'm wrong) Darla would say the same sort of thing and Hindus would say the same sort of thing and so would the Warrudgeri people of south-eastern Australia. It's this multiplicity of religions with is my strongest (personal) argument against any of them being true (in the detailed sense of a peronal god/s and 'thou shalt not eat prawns' and 'play that piano and go to hell' etc). All believers of all religions can examine their hearts and consciences and discover that their beliefs are correct. This tends to suggest that human psychology is predisposed to believing in gods, not that a particular set of gods actually exists.

 

BTW, 'heart' is a metaphor. What do you actually mean when you speak of 'heart'?

Edited by Frank

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And what are you preaching, that Greek gods or godesses exist? Really, now.

 

I regard the existence of the Greek gods as exactly as likely as the existence of the Hindu gods or the Christian god. The point I made in the thread about the moon splitting stands here - once you accept that supernatural beings exist there are no more rules. Once you accept that gods can exist, it's exactly as likely that a bunch of gods are lolling around on Mt Olympus as it is that a lone god consigns humans to hell.

 

Just because the monotheisit god is more likely to yell "Shut up and clean your room!" (whereas the Greek gods are more likely to yell "Woo-hoo!" and the Hindu gods "Let's dance!") doesn't mean that it is more likely to exist. (No, Yasnov, I do not mean this literally. It's called "play".)

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(No, Yasnov, I do not mean this literally. It's called "play".)

 

You should have come to the realization by now that no Muslim will play this game. There is only one God, the creator of this universe. Wasting our time imagining ridiculous what-ifs is just that; ridiculous.

 

1. Say: "He is Allah, One.''

2. Allah As-Samad.''

3. He begets not, nor was He begotten.

4. And there is none comparable to Him." [surah Al-Ikhlas]

 

By the way, Frank, are you asking these questions with the intention of discovering if Islam is the true path, or with the intention of trying to convince us that it isn't?

 

Salam.

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By the way, Frank, are you asking these questions with the intention of discovering if Islam is the true path, or with the intention of trying to convince us that it isn't?

 

Neither. I'm responding to the challenge in the sub-title of this forum: "Let's see what you got against Islam". What I got, as Eion summed-up so well, is "not only do you believe in a God for whom there is no objective evidence, but that you also believe in a God who could be telling you anything for His own amusement." This of course applies equally to all religions and all gods.

 

Actually, though, my position had softened a bit tonight, as I've just seen the programme for a big Muslim Music Festival to be held here next weekend. It includes an excellent sitar player (I love ragas) and some Indonesian body-percussionists and dancers, plus lots of other things. If that's the sort of Islam which Australia hosts, then I'm less concerned about the fanatics.

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Neither.

 

Objectively, Muslims give Da'wah in order to help people see the truth, so thank you for making it clear that this wouldn't accomplish much.

 

Also, we don't believe in "a God who could be telling us anything for His own amusement". This implies that we follow "a God" even though WE think He might be false.

 

If that's the sort of Islam which Australia hosts, then I'm less concerned about the fanatics.

 

Please don't refer to true Muslims as fanatics. I'm sure music is really important to you, but it isn't to others. And though you might believe our lives are empty because we don't have sex with people we are not married to, or drink alcohol, or listen to music, we are quite satisfied.

 

You couldn't possibly begin to understand what Muslims feel, unless you've felt it. I hope you will at least take the time to learn and understand, and realize that this world's materialism never creates contentment in a person, that would last a lifetime.

 

Edit: A lot.

 

Salam.

Edited by Layna

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Also, we don't believe in "a God who could be telling us anything for His own amusement". This implies that we follow "a God" even though WE think He might be false.

 

Do you actually misunderstand? I'll rephrase. You have no way of knowing if the god in which you believe is 'really' good or just a mischevious god (perhaps one of many) pretending to be good (and alone). I think that's indisputable - and the lack of dispute about it (as opposed to statements of faith) tends to confirm me in my view.

 

 

Please don't refer to true Muslims as fanatics.

 

I didn't refer to 'true' Muslims as fanatics - I referred to some Mulsims as fanatics. There are fanatical Christians, fanatical Hindus, fanatical communists, fanatical nihilists ... and fanatical Muslims.

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Do you actually misunderstand?

 

So much for toning it down.

 

Your phrasing left a lot to be desired, your exact words:" you also believe in a God who could be telling you anything for His own amusement."

 

I disagree with the way you put your sentence. We don't believe in a God "who could be telling us anything for His own amusement." We believe in God, the creator of this universe, the One and Only. Understand?

 

I'll rephrase. You have no way of knowing if the god in which you believe is 'really' good or just a mischevious god (perhaps one of many) pretending to be good (and alone)

 

And YOU are wrong in your assumtion that faith is not enough to worship our creator.

 

I think that's indisputable - and the lack of dispute about it (as opposed to statements of faith) tends to confirm me in my view.

 

That's rich. YOUR view? After all that hot air you were saying about people basing their beliefs on faith? Your view is not based on fact; you have no fact that what we follow is wrong. It is based on your own beliefs. And as I've said, scold yourself before you try to nitpick at others' beliefs.

 

If it's indisputable, then one must wonder why you were under the misconception, even for a second, that it wasn't.

 

Salam.

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So much for toning it down.

 

I didn't say anything about toning down, I said 'rephrase'.

 

Your phrasing left a lot to be desired, your exact words:" you also believe in a God who could be telling you anything for His own amusement."

 

Yep. You have no way of knowing whether or not the god you believe in is telling the truth, so he she/it COULD be telling you anything for his/her/its own amusement. I know that you don't believe this, but that belief is based on nothing at all. As is the case with any religious belief. It's practically the definition of a religious belief that it does not depend on facts.

 

And YOU are wrong in your assumtion that faith is not enough to worship our creator.

 

I know you think that, but you can't prove it, any more than a Hindu can prove that Krishna danced with the cow-maids.

 

That's rich. YOUR view? After all that hot air you were saying about people basing their beliefs on faith? Your view is not based on fact; you have no fact that what we follow is wrong. It is based on your own beliefs. And as I've said, scold yourself before you try to nitpick at others' beliefs.

 

Layna, I know that that you are not willing to engage in debate about the existence and attributes of gods, and that's fine. But why stay in a thread that is devoted to debate about that? You are not actually offering anything to the discussion. I'm not proposing facts, I'm proposing debate. You don't want to debate the proposition that it's impossible to tell if a god ... (etc - it has been stated many times in the thread). Fine, but why stay in the thread?

 

If it's indisputable, then one must wonder why you were under the misconception, even for a second, that it wasn't.

 

I don't think I was under that misconception (what gave you that impression?) but even if I was it's possible for argument to convince me of a different position. I repeat, no-one has offered any argument against the proposition that a god who wanted to fool humans could do so and it would be impossible for humans to know it. Therefore (and this follows logically, it is not a 'belief') if the premise is correct (and no-one has offered any arguments that it isn't) it is the case that humans who worship gods are worshipping beings who COULD be playing a trick on them.

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I didn't say anything about toning down, I said 'rephrase'.

 

Uh, that comment was not directed at you.

 

Yep. You have no way of knowing whether or not the god you believe in is telling the truth, so he she/it COULD be telling you anything for his/her/its own amusement. I know that you don't believe this, but that belief is based on nothing at all. As is the case with any religious belief. It's practically the definition of a religious belief that it does not depend on facts.

 

You haven't heard a word. We do know that God is one and that He is the creator of the universe.

 

I know you think that, but you can't prove it, any more than a Hindu can prove that Krishna danced with the cow-maids.

 

I don't recall ever stating that it was my duty to prove it to anyone. But if they would like to learn, I'll be more than happy to share.

Layna, I know that that you are not willing to engage in debate about the existence and attributes of gods, and that's fine.

 

Do you even know why no Muslim wishes to get into such a discussion? And why it disgusts us?

But why stay in a thread that is devoted to debate about that?

 

Why keep replying to me if you believe I'm not debating?

 

You are not actually offering anything to the discussion.

 

And neither are you willing to learn.

I'm not proposing facts, I'm proposing debate.

 

You are proposing insults.

Fine, but why stay in the thread?

 

Why continue to reply?

 

I don't think I was under that misconception (what gave you that impression?) but even if I was it's possible for argument to convince me of a different position.

 

You can't debate what is indisputable.

 

I repeat, no-one has offered any argument against the proposition that a god who wanted to fool humans could do so and it would be impossible for humans to know it

 

Do you even want to know why?

 

Salam.

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I repeat, no-one has offered any argument against the proposition that a god who wanted to fool humans could do so and it would be impossible for humans to know it

 

Given the characteristics of the God i know. I think he can do as he pleases. wether he wish to fool someone or not to fool someone.

 

 

BUT BEFORE THAT

 

Given the characteristics of the GOD i know. I think he will never fool someone just to enjoy the plight of his poor creation. Of course he is fooling you to believe there is no God. And its your intellect that should try and determine if you are being fooled or not. You being fooled is not of any enjoyment to the God i know. Rather its a disappointment. Because he created you to be better than being a fool. Yet you insist in being fooled by the non existence of God.

 

When he wishes to fool he allows the devil to have a upper hand on you and when he wishes to guide he strengthens your intellect because you were created to be better than devil. And the devil is supposed to bow down to you.

 

Rather you choose to bow down to the devil. So in one way or the other he is fooling you. But again he has given you the intellect to understand that too. I wish you do understand that.

Edited by Student

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Thanks, student.

 

You are proposing a god who fools me but who allows me the possiblity that I can see through the fooling. (I'd be interested to hear what you think are the intellectual arguments, but that's another topic, really).

 

However I'm proposing the hypothetical situation of a god who fools people and doesn't want to allow the possibility that they can see through the fooling. If there was such a god it could be indistinguishable from Siva, Yahweh, the Rainbow Serpent, Allah, Woden, Zeus or any other god. Humans would have no way of knowing whether the god was fooling or not.

 

 

EDIT - and of course, I'm proposing that "the characteristics of the GOD" you know could easily be counterfeited by a mischievous/malaevolent god. You have no way of knowing.

Edited by Frank

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Given the characteristics of the God i know. I think he can do as he pleases. wether he wish to fool someone or not to fool someone.

 

I think the word here is "testing".

 

Salam.

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Let me pose a similar scenario here, in the hopes that you might actually understand.

 

When you were growing up, did you love your mother? Was she affectionate toward you? Did she teach you your values and help you grow into a better person?

 

If yes, how do you know she wasn't fooling you? Perhaps your mother was mischievous and malevolent, she only sought to play a nasty trick on you. When she told you "don't cross the street without looking both ways" or "don't talk to strangers", perhaps she didn't do it because there is any goodness in her heart. Perhaps she simply laughed at how gullible you were.

 

Given that there is the probability that your mother is hiding such a secret from you, and is potentially mischievous or malevolent with the intention of fooling you, how can you possibly still love her? How can you believe in her? In her words, which could very well be lies? After all, there ARE bad mothers out there. Perhaps your mother is one of them, and you have been living one big lie.

 

This is assuming you are the average person who has a good relationship with his mother. If not, you can substitute father/brother/friend/spouse/etc for mother.

 

Salam.

Edited by Layna

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Look up 'hypothesis'. No-one has actually attempted an answer to the question 'How would you know if a god was fooling you?'

This is the problem. I have gone through hypothesis stage, and have reached my conclusion with 100% certainty about my belief. On the other hand, you are still at your hypothesis stage, you don't know how sure you are with that, but still you try to drag me back to the phase of hypothesis.

 

Fair enough but I'm sure that (for example and my apologies if I'm wrong) Darla would say the same sort of thing and Hindus would say the same sort of thing and so would the Warrudgeri people of south-eastern Australia. It's this multiplicity of religions with is my strongest (personal) argument against any of them being true (in the detailed sense of a peronal god/s and 'thou shalt not eat prawns' and 'play that piano and go to hell' etc). All believers of all religions can examine their hearts and consciences and discover that their beliefs are correct. This tends to suggest that human psychology is predisposed to believing in gods, not that a particular set of gods actually exists.

It doesn't matter if all believers of any other religions feel that their beliefs are correct too. Because it's all about time until they find the ultimate truth. So, you always find people convert from their old religion to Islam, right?

 

BTW, 'heart' is a metaphor. What do you actually mean when you speak of 'heart'?

Spiritual chemistry, what else?

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

Edited by Yasnov

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Layna - I don't accept the analogy. Do you think that pagans (for example) love the wrong mother? How could this happen? Or are you saying that belief in ANY god is a valid belief? That's more like what I'm saying - that all gods are equally likely to exist.

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Spiritual chemistry, what else?

 

That's another metaphor. What do you mean by it?

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Yasnov, if, as you say, you have previously considered my hypothesis (that humans could not determine whether or not a god was telling the truth if the god chose to fool them) and have rejected it, perhaps you'll tell us the arguments you used to disprove it.

 

So, you always find people convert from their old religion to Islam, right?

 

Not sure what you mean here - if you're saying that Islam is the only religion that people convert to, it's patently false.

Edited by Frank

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Double post

Edited by Yasnov

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That's another metaphor. What do you mean by it?

Magnetic power. It's a connection, a bond or feeling a man has about his God, which can be conscious or unconscious.

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

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You keep using metaphors which don't get any closer to the substance. However, I'll go on what I can figure.

 

Did the Vikings feel this magnetismm when they slaughtered people in the expectation of going to a giant orgy after death? Does the Pope? Do Hindus? I think they did/do - and it's because of the way the human mind has evolved.

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Not sure what you mean here - if you're saying that Islam is the only religion that people convert to, it's patently false.

It's not really what I meant. My point is it doesn't matter if all believers of any other religions feel that their beliefs are correct too. Because we have this in Islam, "for you your religion, for me my religion".

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

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Did the Vikings feel this magnetismm when they slaughtered people in the expectation of going to a giant orgy after death? Does the Pope? Do Hindus? I think they did/do - and it's because of the way the human mind has evolved.

Good questions. The answer is mostly likely yes, they might feel the magnetism.

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

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Yasnov, if, as you say, you have previously considered my hypothesis (that humans could not determine whether or not a god was telling the truth if the god chose to fool them) and have rejected it, perhaps you'll tell us the arguments you used to disprove it.

I already told you my argument : )

As the concept of God must have something to do with conscience and heart, you need to engage them so that you can have spiritual chemistry about God.

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

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