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Frank

If I Was A Malaevolent/mischievious God

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Good questions. The answer is mostly likely yes, they might feel the magnetism.

 

And yet most of them will go to hell. So they felt the wrong magnetism?

 

Anyway, this is getting off topic. Tomorrow I'll start a thread for this sidetrack. Meanwhile you might explain how you came to decide that a god could not fool you it he/she/it wanted to try.

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And yet most of them will go to hell.

How do you know that?

 

So they felt the wrong magnetism?

It's probably the negative magnetism that they felt.

 

Meanwhile you might explain how you came to decide that a god could not fool you it he/she/it wanted to try.

I answered it in my post above

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

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Layna - I don't accept the analogy. Do you think that pagans (for example) love the wrong mother? How could this happen? Or are you saying that belief in ANY god is a valid belief? That's more like what I'm saying - that all gods are equally likely to exist.

 

You have no valid reason for not accepting it. This isn't about pagans loving the wrong mother. This is about YOU loving the wrong mother. So answer me, how do you know that who you thought was your mother, your entire life, isn't simply a big nasty trick on you? What reason do you have to believe that she is neither malevolent nor mischievous? Because you "believe" she isn't?

 

Think it over.

 

Salam.

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You are proposing a god who fools me but who allows me the possiblity that I can see through the fooling. (I'd be interested to hear what you think are the intellectual arguments, but that's another topic, really).

 

Of course God can do anything he wishes. For his Servants/creation he wishes good.

 

 

However I'm proposing the hypothetical situation of a god who fools people and doesn't want to allow the possibility that they can see through the fooling
.

 

I'm proposing that "the characteristics of the GOD" you know could easily be counterfeited by a mischievous/malaevolent god. You have no way of knowing
.

1. I dont understand the term mischievious God. I mean you ever heard of a (hypothetical) mischievious teacher who wishes to teach wrong stuff and then fail the student in the exam.

2. Or the mischievious Judge who carries out the wrong verdict to have fun.

3. I dont understand why i have no way of knowing.

DO you mean if god wishes to hide it from me then i can never know ? If so then yes i agree. Then what ? is gonna follow i wait to know. for example the knowledge of the unseen is with God and he wishes to hide and and i have no way of knowing it.

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Of course God can do anything he wishes.

 

Including fooling humans.

 

1. I dont understand the term mischievious God. I mean you ever heard of a (hypothetical) mischievious teacher who wishes to teach wrong stuff and then fail the student in the exam.

 

Then you don't know much about human religions. Mischevious gods abound. The curiosity is that monotheism does not have mischieviousness, not that most religions have mischievious gods.

 

3. I dont understand why i have no way of knowing.

DO you mean if god wishes to hide it from me then i can never know ? If so then yes i agree. Then what ? is gonna follow i wait to know. for example the knowledge of the unseen is with God and he wishes to hide and and i have no way of knowing it.

 

Yes, I mean that if a god wanted to fool you, the god could. If a mischievious/malaevolent god decided to tell people to create a new religion there would be no way that the people could know if the god was fooling them or telling the truth about it. "Wait to know" doesn't really work if the god is operating on a timescale of millions of years. (I take Darla's point about the short attention span of mischievious gods, but we're talking about beings which have infinitely long lives, so "short" could mean a billion years.)

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Layna, I'm reasonably convinced that I had a mother (look up 'solipsism' for an alternative view - I'm not talking about solipsism) and I have observed many mothers and I know about the similarities and differences between them. I know about human psychology and behaviour. I know that there are 'good' and 'bad' mothers, and that young children couldn't tell the difference. (You aren't going to try to tell me that an adult's relationship with his/her mother is analolgous with a human's relatinship with a god, I hope.)

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Layna, I'm reasonably convinced that I had a mother (look up 'solipsism' for an alternative view - I'm not talking about solipsism) and I have observed many mothers and I know about the similarities and differences between them. I know about human psychology and behaviour. I know that there are 'good' and 'bad' mothers, and that young children couldn't tell the difference. (You aren't going to try to tell me that an adult's relationship with his/her mother is analolgous with a human's relatinship with a god, I hope.)

 

That's a rather weak reason, Frank. You are assuming that, because you have "observed" many mothers, you are quite sure that yours is neither malevolent nor mischievous.

 

You are going by your own intuition, your own beliefs. You have no concrete proof of what your mother REALLY thinks. You could ask her, she might respond in a way you find appropriate, but perhaps she does so with the intention of fooling you.

 

At the end of the day, you really are taking as much of a risk as you accuse us of. You have probably spent your entire life loving, obeying, and believing in malevolent/mischievous mother.

 

I've said from the beginning that even YOU base your life on beliefs, and not concrete proofs. "I think" is not fact. You think your mother is neither malevolent nor mischievous. You have no proof that she isn't.

 

Salam.

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That's a rather weak reason, Frank. You are assuming that, because you have "observed" many mothers, you are quite sure that yours is neither malevolent nor mischievous.

 

You are going by your own intuition, your own beliefs. You have no concrete proof of what your mother REALLY thinks. You could ask her, she might respond in a way you find appropriate, but perhaps she does so with the intention of fooling you.

 

At the end of the day, you really are taking as much of a risk as you accuse us of. You have probably spent your entire life loving, obeying, and believing in malevolent/mischievous mother.

 

I've said from the beginning that even YOU base your life on beliefs, and not concrete proofs. "I think" is not fact. You think your mother is neither malevolent nor mischievous. You have no proof that she isn't.

 

Cool.

 

I am out of here. I think you are doing a good job. I dont thing i can contribute any benifit.

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That's a rather weak reason, Frank. You are assuming that, because you have "observed" many mothers, you are quite sure that yours is neither malevolent nor mischievous.

 

 

Whoa! Who said I don't think my mother is malaevolent or mischeivous? I said I'm pretty sure I have a mother, using the everyday proofs that allow me to be pretty sure I have feet and so on (granted I could be being fooled but that's verging on solipsism, and I'm not talking about solipsism). There's no equivalent proof for a god existing. Even if one allows that a god might exist there's no posibility that a human could understand a god's reasoning (whereas I have a pretty good idea of my mother's reasoning) and there's no possibility that a human could fool a god (depending on the god, of course) whereas I have fooled my mother many times. My mother didn't, but many mothers fool their children about the existence of Santa Claus, Zeus, the Tooth Fairy, human reporduction and so on. Fooling children is something mothers do well. Moreover, if the analogy is correct there are lots of people who think their own mothers are wonderful but that all other mothers are evil shams. Actually, wouldn't it be shirk for you to believe in the existence of other mothers?

 

I don't think the analogy stands.

 

A better analogy (for religions with heaven and hell) would be children brought up in a place with no mothers and one man claiming that he knew where the mothers were and that they gave him detailed instructions about how the mothers would boil the children in vats of lava if they didn't believe that the attributes of the mothers were exactly as he said. Various other men claimed different attributes and different horrible punishments. Lots of the men made a good living selling books and DVDs about this.

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Including fooling humans.

The difference between Muslim's God and other people's gods is that in Islam, God is Just. Anything he does, is Just.

 

Yes, I mean that if a god wanted to fool you, the god could. If a mischievious/malaevolent god decided to tell people to create a new religion there would be no way that the people could know if the god was fooling them or telling the truth about it.

You are right. The god you are talking about has asked humans to worship statues, sun, animals, fire and etc.

 

A better analogy (for religions with heaven and hell) would be children brought up in a place with no mothers and one man claiming that he knew where the mothers were and that they gave him detailed instructions about how the mothers would boil the children in vats of lava if they didn't believe that the attributes of the mothers were exactly as he said. Various other men claimed different attributes and different horrible punishments. Lots of the men made a good living selling books and DVDs about this.

I don't understand your analogy

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

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Yasnov I can see that you might not accept my analogy (and I'd love to argure it with you) but I don't see how you could not understand it.

 

The only reason you think Islam's god is just is that the god has told you so, and you believe what you have been told. You have no way of knowing whether it is a solo god telling you the truth or one of many gods telling you a lie. That's what this thread is about. You don't seem to be able to understand that.

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Frank, your logics might be another mischievous/malevolent god which tries to fool you.

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

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A better analogy (for religions with heaven and hell) would be children brought up in a place with no mothers and one man claiming that he knew where the mothers were and that they gave him detailed instructions about how the mothers would boil the children in vats of lava if they didn't believe that the attributes of the mothers were exactly as he said. Various other men claimed different attributes and different horrible punishments. Lots of the men made a good living selling books and DVDs about this.

Who is him?

 

You have no way of knowing whether it is a solo god telling you the truth or one of many gods telling you a lie.

My God does not lie. Sorry. He is Just. It is His Characteric.

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

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Student, I'm disappointed in you.

 

 

So you believe in me ,hey ? thats cool too.

And you believe when i say i wont contribute. and you become disappointed.

 

I wonder if you and another user here could get into an argument to determine if what i said was true/ false/fooling/guiding etc.

 

Dude is this worth the time and effort you put in. I mean come on. Could you guys read all your posts from begining till end ? do you think others can ?......i donno but that user layna never wanted to get in to this argument, and she even warned others. but now she is a full member of this argument. ( i aint critizing her)

 

i know its fun to argue and stuff but......man i am out, ouch !!! dont believe this cuz PERHAPS i am fooling you (again).

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Who is him?

 

A better analogy (for religions with heaven and hell) would be children brought up in a place with no mothers and one man claiming that he knew where the mothers were and that they gave him detailed instructions about how the mothers would boil the children in vats of lava if they didn't believe that the attributes of the mothers were exactly as he said. Various other men claimed different attributes and different horrible punishments. Lots of the men made a good living selling books and DVDs about this.

 

 

My God does not lie. Sorry. He is Just. It is His Characteric.

 

It sounds like you are telling your god what he can do. Anyway, the only reason you think it is a characteristic of your god that he does not lie is that the god told you. You have no way of knowing whether or not this was a lie.

 

Are "my logics" the result of fooling? Of course they could be. But please do look up 'solipsism' (and the correct usage of the word 'logic'). I am not making the solipsist argument here.

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Student I'm sorry that your reading skills are too poor to be able to read all my posts, but hopefully your studies will help them improve.

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A better analogy (for religions with heaven and hell) would be children brought up in a place with no mothers and one man claiming that he knew where the mothers were and that they gave him detailed instructions about how the mothers would boil the children in vats of lava if they didn't believe that the attributes of the mothers were exactly as he said. Various other men claimed different attributes and different horrible punishments. Lots of the men made a good living selling books and DVDs about this.

It means the relationship between the children and mothers is not built upon love and familiarity.

 

Anyway, the only reason you think it is a characteristic of your god that he does not lie is that the god told you. You have no way of knowing whether or not this was a lie.

If you are emotionally close to someone, you would know when your loved one is lying and when they don't. And I am spiritually close to my God ....

 

I have observed many mothers and I know about the similarities and differences between them. I know about human psychology and behaviour. I know that there are 'good' and 'bad' mothers, and that young children couldn't tell the difference. (You aren't going to try to tell me that an adult's relationship with his/her mother is analolgous with a human's relatinship with a god, I hope.)

I have observed many gods and compare it with God, and I know about some "similarities" and differences between them. So, I know there are great God and there are bad gods, and I can tell the difference.

 

Are "my logics" the result of fooling?

Why does your logics say that lying is a bad thing, while honesty is a good thing? Or why the murder of innocent is wrong?

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

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If you are emotionally close to someone, you would know when your loved one is lying and when they don't. And I am spiritually close to my God ....

 

That's why Layna's analogy falls down. You can be close to another human being and know (perhaps - humans do fool other humans, constantly) when they are telling the truth. But the relationship between a human and a god is not like that. You could not possibly know that a god was fooling you if the god wanted to fool you.

 

Don't you think it's insulting to the god to say that a mere human could know something the god did not want known?

 

Why does your logics say that lying is a bad thing, while honesty is a good thing? Or why the murder of innocent is wrong?

 

Yasnov, the word "logics" does not mean what you think it does. Please look it up. Until now I have been able to guess what you mean by "logics" but in this case it's more difficult.

 

You think the murder of the guilty is OK? I don't. And I don't agree that lying is always a bad thing. But you are trying to see how I could have an ethical system without believing that ethical systems can only come from supernatural beings/s.

 

I don't see the connection at all. All humans (except psychopaths, probably) have ethical systems and they believe in all sorts of gods or no god/s at all. There isn't a necessary connection. It's like the old(ish) saying, "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle".

 

What is interesting is that most human ethical systems are broadly similar. I think this suggests that ethics are an inherent part of human psychology and that ethics give humans an evolutionary advantage.

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You could not possibly know that a god was fooling you if the god wanted to fool you.

What matter is my feeling. And I am content with what I feel about my God. So far, I've never felt that he is fooling me. Otherwise I would have left Islam like you left Christianity, right? : )

 

Don't you think it's insulting to the god to say that a mere human could know something the god did not want known?

It's impossible for us to know everyone's intention, plan and scenario, including God's scenario. If God has another hidden scenario, then it is beyond my control. But of course this is also "what ifs", so, what if it isn't so? So, thus far, I've done what I am supposed to do. And if you need to know, I am quite content so far with my decision.

 

You think the murder of the guilty is OK?

Hehe .. I wrote the murder of innocent, not the murder of the guilty. Why does your logics say that the murder of innocent is wrong?

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

Edited by Yasnov

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What matter is my feeling. And I am content with what I feel about my God. So far, I've never felt that he is fooling me. Otherwise I would have left Islam like you left Christianity, right? : )

 

No, I was never a Christian or a member of any other religion.

 

I know that you are convinced that your view is correct. Fair enough, and if it comes down to mere faith there's no more to be said about it. However if you choose to make arguments you can't just say "Oh well, I just have faith" to get out of losing the argument.

 

Hehe .. I wrote the murder of innocent, not the murder of the guilty.

 

Yassie, your English comprehension isn't all that good. You said (or implied, really) that the murder of the innocent is wrong. That implies that you think the murder of the guilty is OK (otherwise you would have just said "Murder is wrong").

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Would you believe me if I said I KNEW this would be your response? Actually, it wouldn't matter either way, but it sure did put a smile on my face to see you react in the typical atheist way.

 

Let's reread the title of the topic.

 

"IF I was a Malevolent/Mischievous God".

 

What does this mean? It means that you want to take us into a hypothetical situation in which you are:

 

1) A "god"

2) Malevolent and mischievous.

 

The title does not say "Does God exists?" My hypothetical situation does not say "Does your mother exist?" The two situations are perfectly parallel; if you are able to "pretend" that you are a "god", or even that God DOES exist in order to ask us the question "How do you know that I/He is not malevolent or mischievous", then why are you suddenly switching your stance to "this is assuming that God really DOES exist, which we can't take for granted!" when I ask why you assume that your mother is not mischievous or malevolent?

 

You are the most illogical person that I've ever met. Please do not hide under the guise of logic or fact. You use neither.

 

That's why Layna's analogy falls down. You can be close to another human being and know (perhaps - humans do fool other humans, constantly) when they are telling the truth. But the relationship between a human and a god is not like that. You could not possibly know that a god was fooling you if the god wanted to fool you.

 

Frank, give me fact. I want fact that will prove to me that your mother is neither malevolent nor mischievous. I don't want your "opinion" or your "belief". I want hard, concrete proof.

 

How disappointing. I thought you would do better than this. Being close to a human being does not make you a mind reader. You have nothing to base your conclusion on, except your own "I think"s.

 

YOU could never know that your mother is fooling you if she wanted to fool you. After all, she could do a very good job of it; she could tell you that she loves you and that she wants what's best for you, but at the end of the day, you have NO proof that she really means it.

 

"Oh, but I'm good at reading people". "Oh, but I'm close to her". Hogwash. These are not facts; these are opinions. These are YOUR opinions.

 

If you believe that you are "close" to your mother, who are you to reject a Muslim for saying that they are close to their creator? Who are you to say that your mother is good because you KNOW her, and reject a Muslim for saying the same about God?

 

Now either show me solid proof that your mother is not malevolent or mischievous, or I will call you a hypocrite.

 

Salam.

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Dude is this worth the time and effort you put in. I mean come on. Could you guys read all your posts from begining till end ? do you think others can ?......i donno but that user layna never wanted to get in to this argument, and she even warned others. but now she is a full member of this argument. ( i aint critizing her)

 

Not really. Read back my posts.

 

I have never, not even once, explained why God is neither malevolent nor mischievous. I have never, not even once, pretended that Frank here is a god, which is what he wanted us to do. It is bordering Shirk to get into such discussions, especially if the person you are discussing it with is ignorant and knows no boundaries.

 

So techinically, I never really did get into the discussion that I warned against. Neat, huh? :sl:

 

I do, however, find immense satisfaction in turning the tables on hypocrites.

 

Salam.

Edited by Layna

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Layna, read my posts. I am NOT arguing that my mother couldn't fool me. She definitely IS mischievious (I won't say malaevolent); when I was a young child I'm sure she DID fool me. Many mothers fool their children, most not for malicious reasons, agreed, but nonetheless a young child could not know.

 

However the relationships between humans are not analogous to the relationships between humans and a god, unless you are thinking of a feeble, flawed, fallible (that is, human) god. I don't accept the analogy.

 

For you to know (other than through blind faith) that a god was not fooling you, you would have to be able to defeat the will of the god. Is this possible? I doubt it.

 

EDIT - Mods, please don't ban Layna for her insults. They don't bother me at all.

Edited by Frank

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I know that you are convinced that your view is correct. Fair enough, and if it comes down to mere faith there's no more to be said about it.

When you said your mother is mischievous, what do you base it on? And if you think your mother is not mischievous, what do you base it on?

 

You think the murder of the guilty is OK? I don't. And I don't agree that lying is always a bad thing.

Murder of the guilty sometime is not okay. And lying is sometimes a good thing for some people. But generally, lying and murder are considered bad things according our established ethical system. Do you agree with this or not?

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

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