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Oh, Christ worshipers! A Poem...ÞÕí�É ÇÈä ÇáÞíã Úä ÇáäÕÑÇäíÉ

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:sl:

Like I usually do I was just going through youtube when I came across this...Ibn Al-Qayyim is amazing he has another video on the narration on when the believers will meet Allah SWT

May Allah SWT make us among those righteous Mu'mins.

 

Those who arent Muslims please do not take this post as an insult.

 

Edited by dot

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Guest amani

:sl:

 

:sl: this video leaves many question to christians id love some of our members to address

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:sl:

Here is the translation of that poem, in Englsh:

 

O Christ-worshippers! We want an answer to our question [from your wise ones],

If the Lord was murdered by some people’s act, what kind of god is this?

We wonder! Was He pleased by what they did to Him?

If yes, blessed be they, they achieved His pleasure,

But if He was discontented, this means their power had subjugated Him!

 

Was the whole entity left without a Sustainer, so who answered the prayers?

Were the heavens vacated, when He laid under the ground somewhere?

Were all the worlds left without a God, to manage while His hands were nailed?

Why did not the angels help Him, when they heard him while he wailed?

 

How could the rods stand to bear the True Lord when He was fastened,

How could the irons reached Him and [had] His body pinned?

How could His enemies’ hands reach Him and slap His rear,

And was Christ revived by himself, or was the Reviver another god?

 

What a sight it was, a grave that enclosed a god,

Stranger still is the belly that confined Him!

He stayed there for nine months in utter darkness, fed by blood!

Then he got out of the womb as a small baby,

Weak and gasping to be breast-fed!

He ate and drank, and did what that naturally resulted, [1]

Is this [what you call] a god?

High Exalted be Allah above the lies of Christians,

All of them will be held accountable for their libels!

 

O Cross-worshippers! For what reason is this exalted

and blame [is cast upon those] who reject it?

Is it not logical to break and burn it, along with the one who innovated it? [2]

Since the Lord was crucified on it, and his hands were fastened to it?

That is really a cursed cross to carry,

So discard it, do not kiss it! [3]

 

The Lord was abused on it, and you adore it?

So [it is clear that] you are one of His enemies!

If you extol it because it carried the Lord of the Worlds,

Why don’t you prostrate yourself and worship graves,

Since the grave contained your god in it? [4]

 

So Christ-worshipper, open your eyes,

This is what the matter is all about.

 

======================

[1] Urination and defecation

[2] (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetapostleofdoom(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/"]Paul of Tarsus[/url], founder of Trinitarian faith

[3] i.e., don't glorify it

[4] i.e., since someone who is a Christian abhors the idea of worshipping a grave, how is it possible for them to worship the cross?

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:sl:

Here is the translation of that poem, in Englsh:...

 

Well meaning, poem, terrible understanding of Christianity :sl:

 

{Moderator note}

This post violated forum rule #39. Action taken. View (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?act=boardrules"]details[/url].

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Well meaning, poem, terrible understanding of Christianity :sl:

 

Peace LDNCatholic

 

Care to explain to us how then, how are we to understand how someone divine (whether God or Son of God, as Christians both claim), could be desecrated and humiliated to such an extent?

 

Don't you view God as sacred, as something that can never be defiled, let alone touched by Man?

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:sl: / Peace

 

On a separate note, I find the video chilling and surreal. Since young, I always felt uneasy about Christian images of Jesus, or any other depictions of the Prophets for that matter.

 

Good poem though...

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Peace LDNCatholic

 

Care to explain to us how then, how are we to understand how someone divine (whether God or Son of God, as Christians both claim), could be desecrated and humiliated to such an extent?

 

Don't you view God as sacred, as something that can never be defiled, let alone touched by Man?

 

 

Before I start, my apologies for the violation of the rules in regard to the quote size. I believe this is the second time, I shall have to be more careful in the future.

 

God is of course sacred, Lord of all Creation.

 

Our belief is that Jesus at that time was fully human, fully Divine (it is complex and to explain it would no doubt be a waste of my time as it would be dismissed as more ''trinity propaganda''. His human body, which was created for the purpose of holding His Divine Presence, was indeed defiled in that it was made dirty. Jesus, Son of God, God Incarnate, was not defiled, merely the body which He chose for the purpose.

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Peace

 

How can something divine be bound by human flesh?

 

As you mentioned, God is the Lord of all Creation. I think and I believe from this statement, God doesn't intertwine or be a part of His creation.

 

Could you explain how and why God would do as such, when all the power and will of things belongs to Him? Whatever purposes and reasons that Christians believe God put his spirit in the body of Jesus, God could have simply done this from His throne in heaven.

 

Why would God's spirit, trapped in a human's body, allow it to be crucified? What was the purpose in crucification? From the words of the poem, how can we believe in a god, that was not able to protect even Himself?

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Peace

 

How can something divine be bound by human flesh?

 

As you mentioned, God is the Lord of all Creation. I think and I believe from this statement, God doesn't intertwine or be a part of His creation.

 

Could you explain how and why God would do as such, when all the power and will of things belongs to Him? Whatever purposes and reasons that Christians believe God put his spirit in the body of Jesus, God could have simply done this from His throne in heaven.

 

Why would God's spirit, trapped in a human's body, allow it to be crucified? What was the purpose in crucification? From the words of the poem, how can we believe in a god, that was not able to protect even Himself?

 

Trapped? Bound? You seem to think we believe Jesus was forced into the Incarnation. He was not, He chose to.

 

You have raised some interesting challenges. As I am new to debate if you will permit me a short time to consult with my priest in order to best answer your queries that would be most appreciated.

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Trapped? Bound? You seem to think we believe Jesus was forced into the Incarnation. He was not, He chose to.

 

I would be interested to know which quotes from the Bible says this about the incarnation...

 

When I say bound or trapped, I mean to say, how could God allow a part of Him, to be within the confines of human flesh? I don't mean Jesus was forced into it, but I'm curious as why would God do such a thing, i.e. when He is All-Powerful, why would He restrict that power within a human body? I'm trying to understand God's perspective in this, in the Chrisitian faith.

 

And also for the Christians, what makes Jesus different from the previous Prophets? Why wasn't God's spirit put into the bodies of the other Prophets mentioned in the Bible?

 

You have raised some interesting challenges. As I am new to debate if you will permit me a short time to consult with my priest in order to best answer your queries that would be most appreciated.

 

Sure no problem, we are all students.

 

Good luck in finding the answers... :sl:

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I would be interested to know which quotes from the Bible says this about the incarnation...

 

When I say bound or trapped, I mean to say, how could God allow a part of Him, to be within the confines of human flesh? I don't mean Jesus was forced into it, but I'm curious as why would God do such a thing, i.e. when He is All-Powerful, why would He restrict that power within a human body? I'm trying to understand God's perspective in this, in the Chrisitian faith.

 

You said it, God is All powerful. He did not restrict Himself in His power. He placed Himself willingly into a mortal vessel. However We also have two thirds of the Omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient Triune Deity who were not in a mortal vessel.

 

 

And also for the Christians, what makes Jesus different from the previous Prophets? Why wasn't God's spirit put into the bodies of the other Prophets mentioned in the Bible?

 

For us, he is different because He is no mere prophet, but God made flesh, the Annointed one, the Messiah.

 

I know these answers will be unsatisfactory, but these are off the top of my head rather than researched.

 

Deus Vobiscum and Ramadan Mubarak

 

Peter

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Peace Peter,

The trinity myth caused the largest number of Christians reverting to Islam. I can judge from the Muslim reverts in our forum. Check out our 'why did they revert' section, to see that many stories started from finding the trinity thing an awkward idea. Even if you asked your priest, he would most probably give you a vague and complicated explanation, never clear and simple answer. The reason for that is clear: its a fake.

God is easy to identify. There is a creator, and his creations. That's all there is in the universe. Prophets are servants of God Almighty, just like we are. Jesus PBUH is a prophet that we Muslims believe in and love so much. But, make no mistake about it: God is One, the One and Only, the Eternal, Absolute, He begetteth not, nor is He begotten, And there is none like unto Him.

 

May Allah guide us all.

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Peace Peter,

The trinity myth caused the largest number of Christians reverting to Islam. I can judge from the Muslim reverts in our forum. Check out our 'why did they revert' section, to see that many stories started from finding the trinity thing an awkward idea. Even if you asked your priest, he would most probably give you a vague and complicated explanation, never clear and simple answer. The reason for that is clear: its a fake.

God is easy to identify. There is a creator, and his creations. That's all there is in the universe. Prophets are servants of God Almighty, just like we are. Jesus PBUH is a prophet that we Muslims believe in and love so much. But, make no mistake about it: God is One, the One and Only, the Eternal, Absolute, He begetteth not, nor is He begotten, And there is none like unto Him.

 

May Allah guide us all.

 

Thank you for that dot. I can explain the Trinity quite simply, to me it is not vague at all however I will not explain it here unless prompted to, as I am not here to preach, merely to learn about Islam and to help refute certain misconceptions of Christianity. I accept your view on Christianity however for obvious reasons I do not accept it, just as you would not accept my view on the origins of Islam (nor would I expect you to).

 

God Bless and Ramadan Mubarak

 

Peter

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My my this forum has made me a little busier then I usually am but nothing fills my heart with joy more then to serve the lord and spread his faith. I will answer your questions with what little insight my lord has blessed me with.

 

Here is the translation of that poem, in Englsh:

 

O Christ-worshippers! We want an answer to our question [from your wise ones],

If the Lord was murdered by some people’s act, what kind of god is this?

We wonder! Was He pleased by what they did to Him?

If yes, blessed be they, they achieved His pleasure,

But if He was discontented, this means their power had subjugated Him!

 

First of all in order to understand the incarnation of our beloved lord we must first know something about the divine Trinity. the doctrine of the Trinity is implied in the very first chapter of Genesis. In verse 26 we read, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Notice the lord said ''let us make man in our image'' to whom was the lord referring to in that verse?

Here is the answer In Hebrews 1:1-2 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds." So we see that it was the Son to whom God was speaking in Genesis 1:26.

Now regarding the Holy Spirit the lord said in Psalm 104:30, "Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created," showing that the Holy Spirit was also a partner in the creation. Further more the lord said in chapter Matthew verse 3:16-17, "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: and lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

This passage shows us the three persons of the Trinity in their separate personalities; the Father is in Heaven, the Son is on the earth, coming out of the water; and the Spirit of God, usually called the Holy Spirit, comes down from Heaven to earth in the form of a dove.

As for what was the purpose of the Incarnation? The primary purpose was that the Son of God might justly offer Himself as our substitute and pay the penalty for our sins so that we might be free from the penalty of eternal hellfire. Secondary to that he by sharing our experiences was being a merciful and understanding advocate.

 

Was the whole entity left without a Sustainer, so who answered the prayers?

The Son of God was normally "spirit." "Spirit" isn't bound to one place as a body of flesh is. He had the entire universe for His workshop. When the Son of God took on human nature, He did not give up his divine nature as Jesus retained His divine powers and attributes, but He did not use them for His own benefit however.

Were the heavens vacated, when He laid under the ground somewhere?

Were all the worlds left without a God, to manage while His hands were nailed?

No as the lord father and Holy Spirit were in heaven and they were managing the universe with their divine well as they have always.

 

Why did not the angels help Him, when they heard him while he wailed?

How could the rods stand to bear the True Lord when He was fastened,

How could the irons reached Him and [had] His body pinned?

How could His enemies’ hands reach Him and slap His rear,

Jesus knew about his crucifixion before it happened, as he gathered to him his apostils the night before his crucifixion in the Last Supper and told them what would become of him. Its said in details what our lord did in the last supper ''While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body." Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." (Matthew 26:26-28 NIV).

And at the day of the crucifixion the Jesus said to his father "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." Luke 23:34

And was Christ revived by himself, or was the Reviver another god?

What a sight it was, a grave that enclosed a god,

The resurrection of Jesus Christ was the beginning of Christianity. Jesus was crucified, stabbed with a roman spear, buried in tomb and A large stone was placed in front of the tomb to close off the burial chamber with a roman gaurd yet all of that couldn’t stop the lord from resurrecting his son. After Jesus rose from his death after he had saved man kind from eternal hellfire he appeared 12 times.

 

Stranger still is the belly that confined Him!

He stayed there for nine months in utter darkness, fed by blood!

Then he got out of the womb as a small baby,

Weak and gasping to be breast-fed!

He ate and drank, and did what that naturally resulted, [1]

Is this [what you call] a god?

The Angel Gabriel was sent from God to Nazareth to a young woman named Mary, as Gabriel entered Mary's room he spoke ''Greeting to you, Mary. O favored one! - the Lord be with you!"

Then he said to Mary ''Do not be afraid Mary; God loves you dearly. You are going to be the mother of a son, and you will call him Jesus. He will be great and will be known as the Son of the most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his forefather David, and he will be king over the people of Jacob for ever. His reign shall never end."

Mary confused and afraid told the angel "How can this be?" I am not married!" But the angel said to her "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, the power of the most high will overshadow you. Your child will therefore be called holy, the Son of God."

Mary then replied "I belong to the Lord, body and soul let it happen to me as you say."

If god wanted his son to be born this way then so be it the lords will be done! For gods will knows no bonders!

 

 

O Cross-worshippers! For what reason is this exalted

and blame [is cast upon those] who reject it?

Is it not logical to break and burn it, along with the one who innovated it? [2]

Since the Lord was crucified on it, and his hands were fastened to it?

That is really a cursed cross to carry,

So discard it, do not kiss it! [3]

 

The Lord was abused on it, and you adore it?

So [it is clear that] you are one of His enemies!

If you extol it because it carried the Lord of the Worlds,

Why don’t you prostrate yourself and worship graves,

Since the grave contained your god in it? [4]

In Christendom the cross reminds Christians of God's act of love and atonement in Christ's sacrifice. The cross also reminds Christians of Jesus' victory over sin and death, since through His death and resurrection He conquered death itself. And from what I see today people need reminders such as the holy cross to remember what's the true reason behind this short life! As all people die regardless of their status.

 

 

Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own

understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He

shall direct your paths.

- Proverbs 3:5,6

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Dear sister WJ,

 

That doesn't make sense. Why would Jesus subject himself to all this humiliation and torture, just as a sacrifice to save you from hellfire, when he, being god or son of god, can simply forgive all Christians and save them from eternal hell, with just a word from him??

 

But then again, why be saved from hellfire in the first place? isn't that a license to freely sin, knowing that your sins were paid for in advance??

 

And what's religion for then, if what you do in life makes no difference!?

Isn't that the reason why Christians in the west have gone to unspeakable sins, same sex marriage in some churches, abortion, prostitution, drugs, lost respect for family ties, nudity, gambling, drinking, cheating and all the ugly faces of modern day societies of the west? with celebrities dancing semi-naked, while hanging a cross around their neck!

 

Do you really see any sense in that logic?

God is The Merciful, but that doesn't make him unjust. Its like being a judge, who decides to free someone who killed your loved ones! out of mercy!!! or because someone else paid in advance for that killer!!!

You should, must, and will be accountable for whatever you do in this life sister, everyone of us will.

 

For you and all Christian brothers and sister who will read this: because we Muslims love you, we beg you to repent and save yourself from this blasphemy. What will really save you is to acknowledge that Jesus is the son of Mary, and beloved prophet of God Almighty. He was never crucified, and he didn't die yet, he was raised to His Lord, Lord of the worlds, God Almighty, The ONLY Lord of the heavens and the earth. I beg you, do continue to love Jesus, for we all do, but never fall into the blasphemy of the fabricated trinity. Time is ticking, and no soul ever knows when or where its time comes, so repent and acknowledge your Lord and Ours, God Almighty, before its too late.

 

May Allah guide you and all of us, amen.

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You said it, God is All powerful. He did not restrict Himself in His power. He placed Himself willingly into a mortal vessel. However We also have two thirds of the Omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient Triune Deity who were not in a mortal vessel.

For us, he is different because He is no mere prophet, but God made flesh, the Annointed one, the Messiah.

 

I know these answers will be unsatisfactory, but these are off the top of my head rather than researched.

 

Deus Vobiscum and Ramadan Mubarak

 

Peter

 

It's good to hear from Peter you and know that you defend the lord, I will pray for you!

 

Dear sister WJ,

 

That doesn't make sense. Why would Jesus subject himself to all this humiliation and torture, just as a sacrifice to save you from hellfire, when he, being god or son of god, can simply forgive all Christians and save them from eternal hell, with just a word from him??

 

But then again, why be saved from hellfire in the first place? isn't that a license to freely sin, knowing that your sins were paid for in advance??

 

And what's religion for then, if what you do in life makes no difference!?

Isn't that the reason why Christians in the west have gone to unspeakable sins, same sex marriage in some churches, abortion, prostitution, drugs, lost respect for family ties, nudity, gambling, drinking, cheating and all the ugly faces of modern day societies of the west? with celebrities dancing semi-naked, while hanging a cross around their neck!

 

Do you really see any sense in that logic?

God is The Merciful, but that doesn't make him unjust. Its like being a judge, who decides to free someone who killed your loved ones! out of mercy!!! or because someone else paid in advance for that killer!!!

You should, must, and will be accountable for whatever you do in this life sister, everyone of us will.

 

For you and all Christian brothers and sister who will read this: because we Muslims love you, we beg you to repent and save yourself from this blasphemy. What will really save you is to acknowledge that Jesus is the son of Mary, and beloved prophet of God Almighty. He was never crucified, and he didn't die yet, he was raised to His Lord, Lord of the worlds, God Almighty, The ONLY Lord of the heavens and the earth. I beg you, do continue to love Jesus, for we all do, but never fall into the blasphemy of the fabricated trinity. Time is ticking, and no soul ever knows when or where its time comes, so repent and acknowledge your Lord and Ours, God Almighty, before its too late.

 

May Allah guide you and all of us, amen.

 

The lord has endured both humiliation and pain willingly for it was the only way he could stand between those who meant him hard and the lord's wrath! He endured humiliation to teach us that we must show the same to his father the lord! Pride can be a road to hellfire and the wrath of the lord. Jesus suffered pain and death to show us the importance of praising the lord regardless of what ever circumstances we live in. for the lord will always attempt to purify his true believers and subject them to hardships only then can the faithful to the lord be rewarded.

 

The topic regarding homosexuality is a touchy one as you might offend a homosexual by just speaking of his godless action. However I would say that homosexuality is wide spread all over the world but the reason it has been approved by certain governments was the cause of their extremely liberal societies. If people live their lives away from the words of god with out respecting his laws then you would see many immoral social problems and the lord would spread chaos among them for not abiding his laws.

We must not forget about God’s destruction of Sodom when two angles came upon Lot and the shameless sinful sodomites wanted to have their way with the guests not respecting any kind of human morality or divine law. Even though Lot has offered them his daughters hoping that they would denounce their evil habits and praise the lord. but alas they didn’t heed the word of the lord so he destroyed every man women and child in that god forsaken place.

The lord said regarding this in Genesis 18:20 "The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave.''

"Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it.

The Catholic Church teaches: "Basing itself on sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved"

As for the other social immoral issues in the western world that cant be blamed on the holy mother catholic church, as those people are not Catholics or don’t respect the lords words. But that again not only western societies have such acts but all the societies of the world must deal with matters of this sort. The fact that they are wide spread in the west is the result of the liberal life styles people enjoy or suffer there.

 

Dot your respect for god is only matched by your love for him truly the lord must be pleased with you. I don’t pretend to judge the lord or explain his actions for I am merely his servant. In the end what really matters is doing the right thing, helping the weak, giving to the poor who are less fortunate, treating others fairly and loving each other how we are supposed to under god. Isn’t that what religion is about? To improve our lives and strive for a better society that respects the lord and his commandments. God wants the best for mankind if only they knew.

 

''I delight to do thy will, O Lord, for I know Thy will for me is supreme good in my present and in my future.''

- Psalms 40:8

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WJ,

Its apparent that you failed to address the points I've raised, probably because you have no answers for them. But twisting what I say then build your reply on that is not a nice method. I don't think you can keep doing that for long in this forum, now that your tactics are easy to recognize.

You ask me to put faith in God's wisdom?!.

That's a given and no believer wouldn't. But I didn't question God's wisdom in the first place. I questioned your fabricated bible. Its not God's wisdom, its the wisdom of those who installed those lies in the original bible. Its clear like the sun that what you all say regarding Jesus being god, son of god, a god who goes to the toilet, gets beaten and dies as humiliating death and buried in a grave, can only be sick man-made fabrications and a giant lies. The heavens, mountains, seas and earth shake when you say such blasphemous lies on the ONE and only God Almighty, who created you and everything in the universe.

 

You say that all over the world people sin..

That's true, even Muslims sin. But that's wasn't my point. Its the fact that your fabricated bible says that jeusu sacrificied so that no one goes to hellfire. Muslims, when they sin, they repent and ask for forgiveness, fearing God and hellfire. Christians don't have to, based on the sacrifice myth. You make your people think that their sins are pre-paid for!!!

 

You mentioned God’s destruction of Sodom when two angles came upon Lot

That's true, but that's God's own work. The angels didn't order a group of men to slaughter that nation. God created us, and He takes life away from us, whenever He destined us to. Only God has the right to replace entire nations with better one. That's a fact. But that wasn't my point at all. I'm accusing your fabricated bible of ordering you to mass murder other nations with your own hands. This clearly proves that parts of your bible can never be the true words of God Almighty. God, in his only reserved holy book, the Quran, never ordered such horrible things. Not a single verse orders Muslims to slay nations by our own hands, or slaughter women and children. For doing so would be training us to be ruthless child killers. Its known that child killers can never lead a normal life again. The psychological scars are un-erasable. So how can you think that these are God's words and orders???

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That doesn't make sense. Why would Jesus subject himself to all this humiliation and torture, just as a sacrifice to save you from hellfire, when he, being god or son of god, can simply forgive all Christians and save them from eternal hell, with just a word from him??

 

Jesus died to release us from the slavery of sin

 

"Romans 6:20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

 

This is why it works

 

"Romans 6:2 ...We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. 8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God."

 

Sin is a choice to disobey the will of God. Therefore, if you sin you are saying you will not fellowship or be apart of the glory God has for you. Since you have made this choice the only place for you is hell because that is a complete removal from the will of God. So the first time you sin is your very first death. Even though you walk this earth your soul is dead. So God choose to be the lamb. Just like the lambs used in sacrifice the Jews did to be forgiven of their sins. Since Jesus was the perfect sacrifice blameless and free from disease like the lambs given to the God He was a perfect sacrifice to be made for all human kind. God knew in his great wisdom that no human other than Jesus could be blameless. He also chooses not to put that much of a burden on any other human other than Himself.

 

Think about the action of being humanities sacrifice. The action of dieing for those that you love proves you love them. He didn't just merely speak a word so that now no one understands the true meaning of this sacrifice. He came down lived the life of a human to show us how to live. He died to show us how to die, and rose to show us that He has victory over life and death. We as humans needed to see that. Just saying “believe me†and not give reason behind that belief is something God wouldn't do. He knows the human heart and knew that we need a breathing living loving companionate sacrifice to turn us away from the devil.

 

Also if he just says the word that you are forgiven why would we really need to change our ways? I wouldn’t show the full weight of sin and how harmful it is.

 

Another thing is God is a true leader. He will not make us do something he was not willing to do himself. He came down lived a good life spread his word and died for all of us so that we may understand what it means to be a resident of the kingdom of heaven. He expects us to lay down our life for Him like He did for us. He expects us to humble ourselves like He did.

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guerrillasaint,

 

Welcome to this God willing fruitful discussion. We both, Muslims and Christians, are united in our mission: to seek the truth and strive to be true believers of our Creator. So allow me to help you in that graceful root to please non other than our God Almighty.

 

According to your explanation God "came down lived the life of a human to show us how to live. He died to show us how to die". But let me ask you: Why didn't it ever occur to god to give us humans such example before? There are countless divine messages that god sent us before Christianity, from the time of prophet Adam. God's way was always the same from the day life started on earth: choose a person to be his messenger, and deliver His divine message to his people. He never even used angels to deliver the message directly to the people (let alone Himself!). God continued to do so till the seal of the prophets, Muhammad PBUH. What make you think that prophet Jesus was an exception? No human on earth ever saw God Almighty, not even prophets, and when prophet Moses, who was the only prophet that spoke to God, asked God to see him, God told him to look at the mountain to see what happens when its subjected to only a fraction of His light. And the moutain was instantly reduced to rubbles. How can you think that God, that unimaginable power beyond all imaginations, can be reduced to a person who goes to the toilet? Aren't you ashamed to even imagine such a horrible blasphemy?

 

And you said

Jesus died to release us from the slavery of sin
so how come sins are all around us in Christian societies? No one is enslaved to sin. Every one of us was born with a free choice to sin or do good. No one is sin-free. Only angels are sin-free. Its you that you need to fight the devil and your inner self to avoid committing sins. But to think that someone can pay for your own sin is a very strange idea that blows up the basis of religion from it roots.

 

God is The Merciful, and He is also The Just. Everyone of us will be accountable for his/her own doings. That's only fair. To say otherwise, is simply beyond reason. And since we can recognize god by reason itself, then those weird sayings must make you suspect that those are really the words of God. Reason leaves no doubt that this is the word of bible falsifiers. They are not God's words. They are pure fake. They do not represent the wisdom of our Creator, they simply represent the evil wisdom of the bible falsifiers. And you have fallen entrapped to that wisdom my friend.

 

And to think that god needs to impersonate human characters to teach us this and that is really absurd, for He has all the creations of the universe, in the heavens and earth and all that in between, angles and humans, as His slaves and servants. He can use any of those creations for whatever purpose according to His divine wisdom. Its really disgusting to think of those persons who falsified your original divine bible and reduced your Creator to that low level, only to make you believe in the sacrifice myth, and Jesus being god or son of god.

 

You need to repent my friend from ever believing in those blasphemies.

May God Almighty guide you all Christians, to show you the way to live according to His wisdom, not the wisdom of the bible falsifiers.

 

May God Almighty guide us all.

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Peace

 

How can something divine be bound by human flesh?

Are you saying that something is impossible through God?

 

Does he have limitations?

 

these questions are rhetorical, I believe you see my point.

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Peace seacow...

 

^^^I dont see your point.

 

Its not that there are no limitations. What I was trying to say was, there are absolutely no reasons that God, whom both Muslims and Christians believe is in a very high position, would subject Himself to being part of creation, which is a comparatively lowly position.

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Are you saying that something is impossible through God?

 

Does he have limitations?

Of course. Its impossible for Allah to be unjust. Its impossible for him to turn into a liar. Its impossible for him to break His promises. Likewise, its definitely impossible for him to take any form that we realize or be able to see what so ever. Last time I checked, mountains were reduced to rubble when subjected to just a glimpse of God's light.

 

There are hundreds of things and forms Allah is impossible to be. Even a small Muslim child knows that, and can explain that to you fluently. Those who use the question you mentioned, which I read a lot, remind me of those 3-card street players, who always cheat, either to make you win so that they pull your leg into betting more money, or to make you loose when you make your largest bet.

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WJ,

Its apparent that you failed to address the points I've raised, probably because you have no answers for them. But twisting what I say then build your reply on that is not a nice method. I don't think you can keep doing that for long in this forum, now that your tactics are easy to recognize.

You ask me to put faith in God's wisdom?!.

That's a given and no believer wouldn't. But I didn't question God's wisdom in the first place. I questioned your fabricated bible. Its not God's wisdom, its the wisdom of those who installed those lies in the original bible. Its clear like the sun that what you all say regarding Jesus being god, son of god, a god who goes to the toilet, gets beaten and dies as humiliating death and buried in a grave, can only be sick man-made fabrications and a giant lies. The heavens, mountains, seas and earth shake when you say such blasphemous lies on the ONE and only God Almighty, who created you and everything in the universe.

 

If god wanted to create his son in such a way then who are you or I or any one else to say other wise?

If the lord father wanted his son to be immune to our mortal weakness and desires then he could have done so. But he didn’t and you know why? Because Jesus endured them! He suffered hunger to spread the word of his father, he resisted the seduction of all the women around him, and he suffered greatly when he died for our sins. Its part of the lord's mercy upon us that Jesus was as he was. We Christians appreciate not one of the sacrifices Jesus made for us but all of them, and the most being his crucifixion for our sins.

 

You say that all over the world people sin..

That's true, even Muslims sin. But that's wasn't my point. Its the fact that your fabricated bible says that jeusu sacrificied so that no one goes to hellfire. Muslims, when they sin, they repent and ask for forgiveness, fearing God and hellfire. Christians don't have to, based on the sacrifice myth. You make your people think that their sins are pre-paid for!!!

Christianity teaches that no matter how hard a person tries it's ordained

by God that all shall fall because of Adam's sin. No matter how honorable a

person tries to act, they are cursed from birth to sin and fall.

 

Baptism is necessary for salvation. And the sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation for those who have fallen after Baptism, just as Baptism is necessary for salvation for those who have not yet been reborn. ''But these are not the only sacraments of importance for salvation.

 

The Catholic Church teaches that salvation to eternal life is God's will for all people

Man cannot in the strict sense, merit anything from God. It is God who justifies, that is, who frees from sin by a free gift of holiness. Man can accept the gift God gives. Man can also refuse the gift, in this sense, "by works a man is justified, and not by faith alone, "and eternal life is, at one and the same time, grace and the reward given by God for good works and merits. Faiths, and subsequently works, are a result of God's grace - thus, it is only because of grace that the believer can be said to "merit" salvation.

 

When Jesus sacrificed him self for our sins, he did so that his father Jehovah would go into the Hells and subdue them, giving humans eternal life and redeeming peoples freedom to believe in him and follow his path of salvation he had given them.

That does not mean at all that you can just go about from sin to another, in order to be saved you need 4 things;

-The first is to believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins, and that a person is only saved through the divine graces of the lord.

-Second you must confess your sin, which is very important because by confessing you admit your sin and see them on your self, you acknowledge them, knowing you're guilty of them.

-Third one must seek repentance, by leaving the sin after confessing it with a humble heart that seeks forgiveness.

-forth is to pray to the lord to help you over come this sin and never fall in it again.

 

("He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.");

 

 

 

When are you peopling going to stop insulting us? After all we are like your guests and are our hosts. You keep on calling our faith false, our holy book fabricated our beliefs lies. Just know one thing if you don’t believe in them that does not mean they are false and blasphemous.

''Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.''

(Matthew 5:9)

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