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I don't believe "only the man died".

What are you saying? Even the God died? You seem to say yes... see the quotation below. So, if God died at that very movement, who was ruling the earth and the whole universe? HUH?.. according to christianity GOD DIED?

 

Christ paid for the sin. You cannot divide Christ into "man" and "God", he is both, as you can read in the Bible.

Christ paid in order that God can forgive us without being injust.

 

Excuse me. What are you trying to say? For your kind information "Man" and "God" are not synonymous words. Its like saying that the bicycle and the motorcycle is the same thing, infect its not! A bicycle cannot be a motorcycle at the same time. How can you equalize a human to a God. A human can will never become a God, neither God will become a human. God is free from all and there is nothing like unto him.

 

Assume that someone is being raped, and both are christians. Now at the very first place, why does the christ have to sacrifice his life for someone else sin. Also, if he had scarified, for the person who raped, then God is unjust to the person who is being raped!! God cannot forgive for a sin and put him into the punishment, and thats silly.

 

Thats why I say, the whole concept of crucifixion is so complex, and confusing.

 

Romans 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished 26 —he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

25

الَّذِي قَدَّمَهُ اللهُ كَفَّارَةً، عَنْ طَرِيقِ الإِيمَانِ، وَذَلِكَ بِدَمِهِ.

26 لِيَظْهَرَ بِرُّ اللهِ إِذْ تَغَاضَى، بِإِمْهَالِهِ الإِلَهِيِّ، عَنِ الْخَطَايَا الَّتِي حَدَثَتْ فِي الْمَاضِي، وَيَظْهَرَ أَيْضاً بِرُّهُ فِي الزَّمَنِ الْحَاضِرِ: فَيَتَبَيَّنَ أَنَّهُ بَارٌّ وَأَنَّهُ يُبَرِّرُ مَنْ لَهُ الإِيمَانُ بِيَسُوعَ.

 

Surathul Baqara Chapter 2 verse 199

199. Then pass on at a quick pace from the place whence it is usual for the multitude so to do, and ask for Allah.s forgiveness. For Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

 

Surathu Nisa Chapter 4 verse 157-158

157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

 

158. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

 

Vishah

Edited by vishah

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PropellerAds

Let's go back to that place and time. Around 30 A.D. in the modern calendar. The city--Jerusalem. The place where the Roman Empire carried out capital punishment--A hill nicknamed "The Skull." What would the non-Christian Roman soldiers tell us about it if they were alive today? I'm talking about the soldiers who gambled for Isa's clothes, yes those armed dudes who had to keep guard of the punishment "ceremony." They had no religious interest, they were most likely just doing the duty that their commanding officer had assigned to them. And there were other people standing around that hill on that day. Surely they must know if Isa actually did indeed die there or if it was made to appear to be so.

In the U.S., specifically in the state of Texas where I live, capital punishment is carried out by a lethal injection at the prison. There is a time set for it to be carried out, and there are prison officials, a doctor who clinically pronounces when death has occured, possibly even some people from the prisoner's family who are present, and outside the prison, there are reporters from the media. So far as I can remember, there has never been any kind of "appearance" of death in these cases. You wouldn't be able to get away with it. Back in the time of Isa's crucifixion I think things were a lot less "humane" than they are today. I just don't see history on the side of the above Qur'anic verses, and respectfully disagree. It's a dangerous path to walk down when we shun history and eyewitness testimony and choose dogma.

 

In the Qur'anic verse you are citing above, where you quoted it as saying, 'That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah'... Who are the "they" it is talking about?

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Just a simple question, TexasCCI. Is anything impossible for God to do, including make those who wished to kill Jesus think that they did indeed kill him?

 

Salam.

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First of all you seem to be extremely confused regarding the deities of the holy Catholic Church, we Christians believe in the divine trinity the god, his holy son and the Holy Spirit. So if I say my lord I am either referring to god the father or his son Jesus whom I love and embrace!

 

The slanderous allegation above is made by a typical Christian who slander and insult God (Allah) of the Torah, the Bible and the Holy Quran and His messenger Jesus by saying falsely that God is One in Three Persons God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

 

Let us see how the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Holy Quran refute the Trinity:

 

Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. (Deuteronomy 4:35)

 

The prophet Moses (peace and bless be upon him) said "Hear, O israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" (Deuteronomy 6:4)

 

And said, O LORD God of israel, there is no God like thee in the heaven, nor in the earth; which keepest covenant, and shewest mercy unto thy servants, that walk before thee with all their (2 Chronicles 6:14)

 

Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears. (2 Samuel 7:22)

 

And Jesus (peace and bless be upon him) answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: (Mark 12:29). When Jesus says "The Lord our God" , it means that Jesus is NOT God but servant of God. Christians defy God by worshiping Jesus as their Lord (God)!

 

And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: (Mark 12:32)

 

The prophet Muhammad (peace and bless be upon him) said "And your God is One God: There is no God but He, ..." (The Qur'an 2:163)

 

The Satanic Trinity:

 

300 corrupt and immoral bishops had gathered at Nicea in 325 and invented the doctrine of the Trinity.The God of the Christians was now seen as having three essences, or natures, in the form of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The matter was far from settled, however, despite high hopes for such on the part of Constantine. Arius and the new bishop of Alexandria, a man named Athanasius, began arguing over the matter even as the Nicene Creed was being signed; "Arianism" became a catch-word from that time onward for anyone who did not hold to the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

It wasn't until 451, at the Council of Chalcedon that, with the approval of the Pope, the Nicene/Constantinople Creed was set as authoritative. Debate on the matter was no longer tolerated; to speak out against the Trinity was now considered blasphemy, and such earned stiff sentences that ranged from mutilation to death. Christians now turned on Christians, maiming and slaughtering thousands because of a difference of opinion.

 

Brutal punishments and even death did not stop the controversy over the doctrine of the Trinity, however, and the said controversy continues even today.

 

The majority of Christians, when asked to explain this fundamental doctrine of their faith, can offer nothing more than "I believe it because I was told to do so." It is explained away as "mystery" - yet the Bible says in I Corinthians 14:33 that "... God is not the author of confusion..."

 

The Unitarian denomination of Christianity has kept alive the teachings of Arius in saying that God is one; they do not believe in the Trinity. As a result, mainstream Christians abhor them, and the National Council of Churches has refused their admittance. In Unitarianism, the hope is kept alive that Christians will someday return to the preachings of Jesus: "...Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve." (Luke 4:8)

 

While Christianity may have a problem defining the essence of God, such is not the case in Islam.

 

"They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity, for there is no god except One God." (Qur'an 5:73) It is worth noting that the Arabic language Bible uses the name "Allah" as the name of God.

 

Suzanne Haneef, in her book WHAT EVERYONE SHOULD KNOW ABOUT Islam AND MUSLIMS (Library of Islam, 1985), puts the matter quite succinctly when she says, "But God is not like a pie or an apple which can be divided into three thirds which form one whole; if God is three persons or possesses three parts, He is assuredly not the Single, Unique, Indivisible Being which God is and which Christianity professes to believe in." (pp. 183-184)

 

Looking at it from another angle, the Trinity designates God as being three separate entities - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. If God is the Father and also the Son, He would then be the Father of Himself because He is His own Son. This is not exactly logical.

 

Christianity claims to be a monotheistic religion. Monotheism, however, has as its fundamental belief that God is One; the Christian doctrine of the Trinity - God being Three-in-One - is seen by Islam as a form of polytheism. Christians don't revere just One God, they revere three.

 

This is a charge not taken lightly by Christians, however. They, in turn, accuse the Muslims of not even knowing what the Trinity is, pointing out that the Qur'an sets it up as Allah the Father, Jesus the Son, and Mary his mother. While veneration of Mary has been a figment of the Catholic Church since 431 when she was given the title "Mother of God" by the Council of Ephesus, a closer examination of the verse in the Qur'an (5:116) most often cited by Christians in support of their accusation, shows that the designation of Mary by the Qur'an as a "member" of the Trinity, is simply not true.

 

While the Qur'an does condemn both trinitarianism (the Qur'an 4:17) and the worship of Jesus and his mother Mary (the Qur'an 5:116), nowhere does it identify the actual three components of the Christian Trinity. The position of the Qur'an is that WHO or WHAT comprises this doctrine is not important; what is important is that the very notion of a Trinity is an affront against the concept of One God.

 

In conclusion, we see that the doctrine of the Trinity is a concept conceived entirely by man; there is no sanction whatsoever from God to be found regarding the matter simply because the whole idea of a Trinity of divine beings has no place in monotheism. In the Qur'an, God's Final Revelations to mankind, we find His stand quite clearly stated in a number of eloquent passages:

 

"...your God is One God: whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as partner." (Qur'an 18:110)

"...take not, with God, another object of worship, lest you should be thrown into Hell, blameworthy and rejected." (Qur'an 17:39)

 

...Because, as God tells us over and over again in a Message that is echoed throughout All His Revealed Scriptures:

 

"...I am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore, serve Me (and no other)..." (Qur'an 21:92)

 

Allah (God) sent Moses and Jesus (peace and bless be upon them) to the israelites to tell the israelites and the prophet Muhammad (peace and bless be upon him) to all mankind to tell them that 'GOD IS ONE AND ONLY'. They never say that God is One in Three.

 

Conclusion:

 

1) The Holy Quran chapter 112, reads:“ In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate. Say (O Muhammad), He is God, the One God, the Everlasting Refuge, who has not begotten, nor has been begotten, and equal to Him is not anyone”.

 

2) Christianity is a corrupt and immoral religion for inventing the Trinity that defies God and His messengers Moses, Jesus and Muhammad so God sends the prophet Muhammad to all mankind to guide them back to the true path of God.

 

3) Christians should revert to Islam. Many Christians and Christian missionaries have reverted to Islam all over the world.

Edited by wiseguy

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I got some problems with shockwave (?), I could not see it. But I can answer your questions.

I don't believe "only the man died".

 

Christ paid for the sin. You cannot divide Christ into "man" and "God", he is both, as you can read in the Bible.

Christ paid in order that God can forgive us without being injust.

 

Romans 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished 26 —he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

25

الَّذِي قَدَّمَهُ اللهُ كَفَّارَةً، عَنْ طَرِيقِ الإِيمَانِ، وَذَلِكَ بِدَمِهِ.

26 لِيَظْهَرَ بِرُّ اللهِ إِذْ تَغَاضَى، بِإِمْهَالِهِ الإِلَهِيِّ، عَنِ الْخَطَايَا الَّتِي حَدَثَتْ فِي الْمَاضِي، وَيَظْهَرَ أَيْضاً بِرُّهُ فِي الزَّمَنِ الْحَاضِرِ: فَيَتَبَيَّنَ أَنَّهُ بَارٌّ وَأَنَّهُ يُبَرِّرُ مَنْ لَهُ الإِيمَانُ بِيَسُوعَ.

 

Matthew 12:14-16, John 7:1, 8:59, 10:39, 11:53-54, and Mark 1:45 show that Jesus consistently feared death. Jesus went out of his way to hide, run, and attempt escape from the Roman and Jewish authorities.

 

Jesus feared the Jews : "After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him." (John, 7:1)

 

Jesus walked in fear of the Jews: "Then from that day forth they took

counsel together for to put him to death. Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews." (John, 11:53-54)

 

Jesus has shown a clean pair of heels: "Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand." (John, 10:39)

 

"God" fled in disguise: "Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by." (John, 8:59)

 

Matthew 12:

14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;

16 And charged them that they should not make him known:

 

Mark 1:

42 And as soon as he had spoken, immediately the leprosy departed from him, and he was cleansed.

43 And he straitly charged him, and forthwith sent him away;

44 And saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

45 But he went out, and began to publish it much, and to blaze abroad the matter, insomuch that Jesus could no more openly enter into the city, but was without in desert places: and they came to him from every quarter.

 

Mark 14:

10 And Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve, went unto the chief priests, to betray him unto them.

11 And when they heard it, they were glad, and promised to give him money. And he sought how he might conveniently betray him.

 

Matthew 26:

1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said unto his disciples,

2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

3 Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,

4 And consulted that they might take Jesus by subtilty, and kill him.

 

According to the Gospel of Mark. Jesus was sad when he knew that he was going to be crucified to death for human sins:

Mark 14:

18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.

28 But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee.

33 And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy;

34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.

43 And immediately, while he yet spake, cometh Judas, one of the twelve, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and the scribes and the elders.

44 And he that betrayed him had given them a token, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he; take him, and lead him away safely.

45 And as soon as he was come, he goeth straightway to him, and saith, Master, master; and kissed him.

46 And they laid their hands on him, and took him.

 

Mark 15:

15 And so Pilate, willing to content the people, released Barabbas unto them, and delivered Jesus, when he had scourged him, to be crucified.

 

The verses of the Gospels above show that Jesus consistently feared death. ‘Jesus’ went out of his way to hide, run, and attempt escape from the Roman and Jewish authorities. If ‘ Jesus ‘ knew that he would be crucified to death by the Jews and Romans and he wanted to die for the sins of all human beings, I think that ‘Jesus’ would neither fear nor avoid the Jews. And ‘Jesus’ should surrender himself to the Jews and Romans instead of making the matter more complicated by fearing and avoiding the Jews and forcing the Jews to hire traitors to help them to apprehend Jesus. By avoiding the Jews, Jesus tried to avoid the crucifixion based on the definition of ‘ avoid ‘ and ‘fear’.

 

When Jesus avoided the Jews, it meant that Jesus wanted to stay clear of Jews to keep the crucifixion from happening or nullify the crucifixion. And Jesus feared the Jews because he was apprehensive about a possible crucifixion by the Jews and Romans.

 

Mark 15: 34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

 

Note: Mark 15:34 has proven that Jesus is not God for God and Jesus are two separate beings. And Jesus question God why God has forsaken him indicating that Jesus did not want to die on the Cross for all the sins of human beings.

 

Was the Person on the Cross Really Jesus?

 

The Bible says:

 

“For the LORD loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. They will be protected forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off;” (Psalms 37:28)

 

But yet when Jesus Christ (pbuh) was put on the cross according to the Bible. He cried out:

 

“About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mathew 27:46)

“And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34)

 

How can Jesus be forsaken when God does not forsake his faithful ones?? Now you the Christians have four options to choose from.

1. The person put on the cross was not really Jesus.

2. Jesus (pbuh) was not faithful to God.

3. Jesus (pbuh) lied that God forsook him.

4. Bible is lying when it says that God does not forsake his beloved ones.

You have four options to choose from. You cannot add a fifth option here. So decide for yourself.

 

I have shown you the Biblical verses that show Jesus avoided the Jews because he feared the Jews and Romans. And Jesus avoided the Jews and Romans because he was afraid that the Jews and Romans might crucify him to death but you show us the verses of the Gospels that state that Jesus was willing to be crucified for all the sins of human beings. These Biblical contradictions or the corruptions of the Gospels prove that the Gospels are neither reliable nor trustworthy.

 

You Christians allege that Jesus was willing to die on the cross for all the sins of human beings. However your allegation is refuted by the Biblical verses below:

 

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

Jesus is recorded to have said: No blood offering, of beast or bird, or man, can take away sin, for how can the conscience be purged from sin by the shedding of innocent blood? Nay, it will increase the condemnation. (Gospel of the Nazarenes) (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_altreligion.about(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/library/texts...olytwelve36.htm"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_altreligion.about(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/library/texts...olytwelve36.htm[/url]

 

Based on Ezekiel 18:20 and the saying of Jesus above , I dare say that Jesus did not want to be crucified to death for all the sins of human beings because the Bible says that we are not responsible for the sins of other people and children are not punished for the sins of the parents. Everybody is responsible for his or her own sins.

 

Islam states that all human beings are born sinless:

 

According to Islam every child is born sinless, and no sin is inherited. Islam does not recognize any original sin whatsoever, no man would have to be born with it. The infant is a pure innocent creature, which will only become sinful when it actually commits a sin itself, and one definitely cannot commit a sin before one is born. The Quran says in confirmation of this :

 

"No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another, And that man can have nothing but what he strives for. And (the fruit of) his striving will soon come insight, then he will be rewarded with a complete reward". (The Holy Quran, Al najm, 53:38-41)

 

These verses elaborate on the fact that the Just God (Allah) does not burden anybody else with the weight of the sinners wrongdoing, and neither will He blame anyone for a sin not committed by him.

 

Everybody is responsible for his own sin, and only he will be questioned for his sin. Neither does one inherit a sin from his ancestors, nor does he pass it onto his descendants.

Each and everyone’s success relies on his own efforts and will be saved by his own faith. Every human is given the capacity to endeavor and strive and win the reward for doing so.

 

The doors of repentance are also open to everyone so they can rid themselves of any sin committed and free themselves from its burden, hus dispensing with any need to visit a "confession box" or throw the burden on anyone else, he only has to turn back to his Lord (Allah) the Forgiver, the Most Just.

Edited by wiseguy

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I don't believe "only the man died".

Christ paid for the sin. You cannot divide Christ into "man" and "God", he is both, as you can read in the Bible.

Christ paid in order that God can forgive us without being injust.

The whole concept of Christianity falls apart with this single verse from Ezekiel Chapter 18 verse 20

" The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father and neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him"

 

----

 

If anyone wishes to talk more about the concept of crucifixion, he is welcome to open a new thread for it or start in an existing one. So lets stay on topic

Edited by vishah

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Peace from our Lord,

Matthew tells us that Joseph, Mary, and the baby Jesus left for Egypt soon after Jesus' birth:

Not soon after the birth, but after the visit of the magoi. Which can be every time up to two years, according to Matthew.

 

Luke 2:39 And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.

"all things according to the law of the Lord" may include things not said, as the fulfillment of an OT prophecy...

Luke sometimes omizts incidents, e.g. he does not tell us anything about Paul going to "Arabiean" Nabatea.

 

For example, Is Jesus peaceful?

Yes.

Jesus is NOT peaceful according to:

No, now You are twisting. The verse describes not whether Jesus is peaceful, but whether the consequences of His vcoming are peaceful. The verse You quoted stands in the chapter where Jesus instructs the disciples He is about to send out to all israel, and he prepares them for being persecuted:

 

Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. 30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. 32 Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven. 34 Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law- 36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'

28

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32 ßõáøõ ãóäú íóÚúÊóÑöÃõ Èöí ÃóãóÇãó ÇáäøóÇÓö¡ ÃóÚúÊóÑöÃõ ÃóäóÇ ÃóíúÖÇð Èöåö ÃóãóÇãó ÃóÈöí ÇáøóÃöí Ãöí ÇáÓøóãóÇæóÇÊö. 33 æóßõáøõ ãóäú íõäúßöÑõäöí ÃóãóÇãó ÇáäøóÇÓö¡ ÃõäúßöÑõåõ ÃóäóÇ ÃóíúÖÇð ÃóãóÇãó ÃóÈöí ÇáøóÃöí Ãöí ÇáÓøóãóÇæóÇÊö.

34 áÇó ÊóÙõäøõæÇ Ãóäøöí ÌöÆúÊõ áÃõÑúÓöíó ÓóáÇãÇð Úóáóì ÇáÃóÑúÖö. ãóÇ ÌöÆúÊõ áÃõÑúÓöíó ÓóáÇóãÇð¡ Èóáú ÓóíúÃÇð. 35 ÃóÅöäøöí ÌöÆúÊõ áÃóÌúÚóáó ÇáÅöäúÓóÇäó Úóáóì ÎöáÇóÃò ãóÚó ÃóÈöíåö¡ æóÇáúÈöäúÊó ãóÚó ÃõãøöåóÇ¡ æóÇáúßóäøóÉó ãóÚó ÃóãóÇÊöåóÇ. 36 æóåóßóÃóÇ íóÕöíÑõ ÃóÚúÃóÇÃó ÇáÅöäúÓóÇäö Ãóåúáõ ÈóíúÊöåö.

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No it doesnt necessarily mean many Muhammeds. It is the plural of respect. Like the King saying "We decreed",

This plural of respect is not present in ancient Hebrew.

 

Moreover, even in the Quran, the plural form is used for God.

Trinity in the Qor'an? Interesting ...

 

The word there for God is "Elohim", which is plural, but they have translated it as God.

Right. But this no plural of respect. It is something else.

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Peace from our God,

The whole concept of Christianity falls apart with this single verse from Ezekiel Chapter 18 verse 20

" The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Hebrew has no special word for "person". Sometimes words like "name" or "soul" are used instead. So this verse states that a sinning person should die.

 

The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father and neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him"

Rejection of the thought that a son has to die for the sins of his fathers does not speak against anything said in he New Testament.

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Not soon after the birth, but after the visit of the magoi. Which can be every time up to two years, according to Matthew.

 

It seems to me that you are so desperate by making the allegation above. I have read the Gospel of Matthew and I find that you are to twist the Gospel.

 

Matthew:

2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, "In the days of Herod the king"

2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him......(The wise men used the Present Perfect Tense)

2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

 

The verses above show that Joseph, Mary, and the baby Jesus left for Egypt soon after Jesus' birth.

 

Herod the Great appears in The Gospel according to Matthew (ch. 2), which describes an event known as the Massacre of the Innocents.

 

Shortly after the birth of Jesus, Magi from the East visited Herod to inquire the whereabouts of "the one having been born king of the Jews", because they had seen his star in the east and therefore wanted to pay him homage. Herod, who was himself King of Judea, was alarmed at the prospect of the new-born king usurping his rule.

 

In the story, Herod was advised by the assembled chief priests and scribes of the people that the Prophet had written that the "Anointed One" (Greek: ho christos) was to be born in Bethlehem of Judea. Herod therefore sent the Magi to Bethlehem, instructing them to search for the child, and that, when they found him, to "report to me, so that I too may go and worship him". However, after they found Jesus, the Magi were warned in a dream not to report back to Herod. Similarly, Joseph was warned in a dream that Herod intended to kill Jesus, so he and his family fled to Egypt. When Herod realized he had been outwitted by the Magi, he gave orders to kill all boys of the age of two years and under in Bethlehem and its vicinity. Joseph and his family stayed in Egypt until Herod's death, then moved to Nazareth in Galilee in order to avoid living under Herod's son Archelaus.

 

The historical accuracy of this event has been questioned, since no other document from the period makes any reference to such a massacre.Such a massacre would certainly have been noted by contemporary historians. Yet not even Josephus, who documented Herod's life in detail, mentioned this event. So if you claim that "Not soon after the birth, but after the visit of the magoi. Which can be every time up to two years, according to Matthew" based on Matthew 2:16, you are wrong for the massacre did not happen!!!

 

"all things according to the law of the Lord" may include things not said, as the fulfillment of an OT prophecy...

Luke sometimes omizts incidents, e.g. he does not tell us anything about Paul going to "Arabiean" Nabatea.

If some incidents had happened, Luke would most likely wrote about them. Which one was important to Luke: Jesus or Paul? On the contrary , Luke contradict Matthew by saying " And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.Luke 2:39)

 

No, now You are twisting.

I am not twisting but you. I quote the verses the Gospels and I do not change them but you are accusing me of 'twisting the Gospels'. The fact is the Gospels contradict among themselves because they contain errors, contradictions etc. In other word the Gospels are corrupt !!! You are condoning the corruption of the Gospels by accusing me of twisting the Gospels.

 

The verses of the Gospel below clearly state that Jesus is not peaceful!

 

Matthew 10: 34 Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law- 36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.

 

The verses of the Gospel state the Jesus is not peaceful.

Edited by wiseguy

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Peace from our God,

 

Hebrew has no special word for "person". Sometimes words like "name" or "soul" are used instead. So this verse states that a sinning person should die.

Rejection of the thought that a son has to die for the sins of his fathers does not speak against anything said in he New Testament.

 

Then why do you Christians claim that all human beings inherit Adam and Eve's sins? Why do you claim that Jesus was crucified to death to cleanse your sins that you have inherited from Adam and Eve? Ezekiel Chapter 18 verse 20 has refuted your false claim !!!!

 

I agree with Vishah that ' The whole concept of Christianity falls apart with this single verse from Ezekiel Chapter 18 verse 20

" The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father and neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him" '

Edited by wiseguy

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Peace from our Lord,

Excuse me. What are you trying to say? For your kind information "Man" and "God" are not synonymous words.

For your kind information: "wave" and "particle" are not synonymous words. Until the rise of quantum physics, it was thopught that these concepts are mutually exclusive. Yet physicist have learned that a wave can be a particle.

 

How can you equalize a human to a God.

It's not me who does it, it was God who did when He decided to come to rescue us.

 

A human can will never become a God, neither God will become a human.

You believe this is impossible for God? I believe God is greater.

 

Back to your question:

What are you saying? Even the God died? You seem to say yes... see the quotation below. So, if God died at that very movement, who was ruling the earth and the whole universe? HUH?.. according to christianity GOD DIED?

You must not think that when God became man He abandoned heaven. It was more like being at two places at the same times (please don't say this is impossible for God :sl: ). God in heaven did never die, but Jesus died.

 

Assume that someone is being raped, and both are christians. Now at the very first place, why does the christ have to sacrifice his life for someone else sin.

There was no other way. To pay for the sin of another, you must be sinless.

 

Also, if he had scarified, for the person who raped, then God is unjust to the person who is being raped!!

No.

Retaliation does not really help.

 

God cannot forgive for a sin and put him into the punishment, and thats silly.

######you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/style_images/1/folder_post_icons/icon14.gif[/img]Please explain that sentence, I don't understand. Who is (not?) punished?

 

 

Surathu Nisa Chapter 4 verse 157-158

157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Well, it is well known that it were not the Jews who killed Jesus.

John 10:17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life- only to take it up again. 18 No-one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.

17

Åöäøó ÇáÂÈó íõÃöÈøõäöí áÃóäøöí ÃóÈúÃöáõ ÃóíóÇÊöí áößóíú ÃóÓúÊóÑöÃøóåóÇ. 18 áÇó ÃóÃóÃó íóäúÊóÒöÚõ ÃóíóÇÊöí ãöäøöí¡ Èóáú ÃóäóÇ ÃóÈúÃöáõåóÇ ÈöÇÎúÊöíóÇÑöí. Ãóáöíó ÇáÓøõáúØóÉõ Ãóäú ÃóÈúÃöáóåóÇ æóáöíó ÇáÓøõáúØóÉõ Ãóäú ÃóÓúÊóÑöÃøóåóÇ. åóÃöåö ÇáúæóÕöíøóÉõ ÊóáóÞøóíúÊõåóÇ ãöäú ÃóÈöí».

 

158. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

This happened after His resurrection.

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Peace from our God,

Let us see how the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Holy Quran refute the Trinity:

Now, the cofession that there is only one God and no one beside Him is one part of the trinity doctrin. It is no refutation to quote verses that states this part of the trinity doctrin.

 

The Satanic Trinity:

Well that way of speaking can be called slandering.

 

300 corrupt and immoral bishops

Any prove of that?

 

had gathered at Nicea in 325 and invented the doctrine of the Trinity.

What about those parts of ther trinity doctrin that were formulated more that 100 years before that council? Jesus is divine, this you can find in the Bible. That he is "cosubstantial" with the father was no invention at Nicea, but formulated earlier. And so on.

 

The God of the Christians was now seen as having three essences, or natures, in the form of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The matter was far from settled, however, despite high hopes for such on the part of Constantine. Arius and the new bishop of Alexandria, a man named Athanasius, began arguing over the matter even as the Nicene Creed was being signed; "Arianism" became a catch-word from that time onward for anyone who did not hold to the doctrine of the Trinity.

No. "Arianism" was a designation for a specific doctrine. Not everybody who rejects thr trinity is an Arianist.

 

It wasn't until 451, at the Council of Chalcedon that, with the approval of the Pope, the Nicene/Constantinople Creed was set as authoritative. Debate on the matter was no longer tolerated; to speak out against the Trinity was now considered blasphemy, and such earned stiff sentences that ranged from mutilation to death. Christians now turned on Christians, maiming and slaughtering thousands because of a difference of opinion.

As far as I know know, it were the Arians who started it - in this case. The turning against one another started earlier, and was not the result of trinity debates, but of the association of church with state. Christians were appealed by the prospect of directing a society, and forgot the warning of our Lord:

 

John 18:36 Jesus said, My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place

ÃóÌóÇÈó íóÓõæÚõ: «áóíúÓóÊú ãóãúáóßóÊöí ãöäú åóÃóÇ ÇáúÚóÇáóãö. æóáóæú ßóÇäóÊú ãóãúáóßóÊöí ãöäú åóÃóÇ ÇáúÚóÇáóãö¡ áóßóÇäó ÃõÑøóÇÓöí íõÌóÇåöÃõæäó áößóíú áÇó ÃõÓóáøóãó Åöáóì ÇáúíóåõæÃö. ÃóãøóÇ ÇáÂäó ÃóãóãúáóßóÊöí áóíúÓóÊú ãöäú åõäóÇ».

 

It is explained away as "mystery" - yet the Bible says in I Corinthians 14:33 that "... God is not the author of confusion..."

Yet, and therefore only one person should speak at a time in church, if you look into the context of this verse. So if we leave out your confusing word game, this verse is off-topic.

 

While Christianity may have a problem defining the essence of God, such is not the case in Islam.

They got another problem instead. From the whole Bible, OT and NT, we have the information that God is a loving God. Christians and Jews believe that this love was already there as a love within God (the shekhina theology within Judaism has a similar role as the trinity in that respect). But with a monolithic God, it was ever selfish self-love, or something changed with God during creation (because he did not love before, but loved after creation) - or God is not love (which seems to be the position of many Muslims, e.g. al Qaida followers).

 

1) The Holy Quran chapter 112, reads:“ In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate. Say (O Muhammad), He is God, the One God, the Everlasting Refuge, who has not begotten, nor has been begotten, and equal to Him is not anyoneâ€.

Thats simply contrary to my experience: everybody who believes in Christ is begotten by God:

John 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

ÃóãøóÇ ÇáøóÃöíäó ÞóÈöáõæåõ¡ Ãóíö ÇáøóÃöíäó ÂãóäõæÇ ÈöÇÓúãöåö¡ ÃóÞóÃú ãóäóÃóåõãõ ÇáúÃóÞøó Ãöí Ãóäú íóÕöíÑõæÇ ÃóæúáÇóÃó Çááåö¡

 

3) Christians should revert to Islam. Many Christians and Christian missionaries have reverted to Islam all over the world.[/b]

It is an open question whether there were more Christians that converted to Islam or Muslims who came to believe Jesus as their savior. But anyway, I don't think that such a comparison tells where the truth is.

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Peace from our Lord,

 

Matthew 12:14-16, John 7:1, 8:59, 10:39, 11:53-54, and Mark 1:45 show that Jesus consistently feared death. Jesus went out of his way to hide, run, and attempt escape from the Roman and Jewish authorities.

I doubt that "consistently" is the right word.

You pick out the verses that fit your point of view, but this is only one part of the truth.

 

Look at this verse:

Luke 13:31 At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you. 32 He replied, Go tell that fox, 'I will drive out demons and heal people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.' 33 In any case, I must keep going today and tomorrow and the next day- for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!

Ãöí Êöáúßó ÇáÓøóÇÚóÉö äóÃúÓöåóÇ¡ ÊóÞóÃøóãó Åöáóíúåö ÈóÚúÖõ ÇáúÃóÑøöíÓöíøöíäó¡ ÞóÇÆöáöíäó áóåõ: «ÇäúÌõ ÈöäóÃúÓößó! ÇåúÑõÈú ãöäú åõäóÇ¡ ÃóÅöäøó åöíÑõæÃõÓó ÚóÇÒöãñ Úóáóì ÞóÊúáößó». 32 ÃóÞóÇáó áóåõãú: «ÇÃúåóÈõæÇ¡ ÞõæáõæÇ áöåóÃóÇ ÇáËøóÚúáóÈö: åóÇ ÃóäóÇ ÃóØúÑõÃõ ÇáÔøóíóÇØöíäó æóÃóÔúÃöí ÇáúãóÑúÖóì Çáúíóæúãó æóÛóÃÇð. æóÃöí Çáúíóæúãö ÇáËøóÇáöËö íóÊöãøõ Èöí ßõáøõ ÔóíúÃò. 33 æóáßöäú áÇóÈõÃøó Ãóäú Ãõßóãøöáó ãóÓöíÑóÊöí Çáúíóæúãó æóÛóÃÇð æóãóÇ ÈóÚúÃóåõãóÇ¡ áÃóäøóåõ áÇó íõãúßöäõ Ãóäú íóåúáößó äóÈöíøñ ÅöáÇøó Ãöí ÃõæÑõÔóáöíãó

Jesus avoided to be put to death before time. The plan of God included that Jesus workeed miracles, and preached to the people.

And if You look where he travelled then: well, through the territory of that Herod...

 

And ‘Jesus’ should surrender himself to the Jews and Romans instead of making the matter more complicated by fearing and avoiding the Jews and forcing the Jews to hire traitors to help them to apprehend Jesus. By avoiding the Jews, Jesus tried to avoid the crucifixion based on the definition of ‘ avoid ‘ and ‘fear’.

When the time came, he did this:

John 18:4 Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, Who is it you want? 5 Jesus of Nazareth, they replied. I am he, Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) 6 When Jesus said, I am he, they drew back and fell to the ground. 7 Again he asked them, Who is it you want? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. 8 I told you that I am he, Jesus answered. If you are looking for me, then let these men go

4

æóßóÇäó íóÓõæÚõ íóÚúÑöÃõ ßõáøó ãóÇ ÓóíóÃúÃõËõ áóåõ¡ ÃóÊóÞóÃøóãó äóÃúæóåõãú æóÞóÇáó: «ãóäú ÊõÑöíÃõæäó¿» 5 ÃóÃóÌóÇÈõæåõ: «íóÓõæÚó ÇáäøóÇÕöÑöíøó». ÃóÞóÇáó áóåõãú: «ÃóäóÇ åõæó». æóßóÇäó íóåõæÃóÇ ÇáøóÃöí ÎóÇäóåõ æóÇÞöÃÇð ãóÚóåõãú. 6 ÃóáóãøóÇ ÞóÇáó áóåõãú: «ÃóäóÇ åõæó»¡ ÊóÑóÇÌóÚõæÇ æóÓóÞóØõæÇ Úóáóì ÇáÃóÑúÖö! 7 ÃóÚóÇÃó íóÓõæÚõ íóÓúÃóáõåõãú: «ãóäú ÊõÑöíÃõæäó¿» ÃóÌóÇÈõæåõ: «íóÓõæÚó ÇáäøóÇÕöÑöíøó». 8 ÃóÞóÇáó: «ÞõáúÊõ áóßõãú: ÃóäóÇ åõæó¡ ÃóÅöäú ßõäúÊõãú ÊõÑöíÃõæäóäöí ÃóäóÇ¡ ÃóÃóÚõæÇ åÄõáÇóÃö íóÃúåóÈõæäó».

 

Note: Mark 15:34 has proven that Jesus is not God for God and Jesus are two separate beings. And Jesus question God why God has forsaken him indicating that Jesus did not want to die on the Cross for all the sins of human beings.

Do You know that this is an quotation out of the OT, of a Psalm who prophecied the sufferings of the messiah? Things are somewhat more complicated as you want to show them.

 

“For the LORD loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. They will be protected forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off;†(Psalms 37:28)

 

Well, the answer can be found in the book of Acts, chapter 2, verse 25 to 33. It is too long to be quoted here (lest the mods become nervous about my quoting the Bible :sl: ), but You can read there how Peter shows that the promise of God to protect the Holy one was fulfilled by raising Christ from the dead.

 

How can Jesus be forsaken when God does not forsake his faithful ones?? Now you the Christians have four options to choose from.

No, you forgot there are more option than this:

[_] The evidence you brought forth is incomplete and therefore misleading

[_] Since Jesus was man also, we see human traits in Him

[_] Jesus was abandoned because He took the sins of the whole world.

....

 

So decide for yourself.

I wonder what will happen if I used this method to give you unacceptable "options" as "the only choise". Probably I would be kicked out of IF ...

 

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

This refutes the ideas that I have to die for my father's sins. No less, no more.

 

Jesus is recorded to have said: No blood offering, of beast or bird, or man, can take away sin, for how can the conscience be purged from sin by the shedding of innocent blood? Nay, it will increase the condemnation. (Gospel of the Nazarenes) (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_altreligion.about(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/library/texts...olytwelve36.htm"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_altreligion.about(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/library/texts...olytwelve36.htm[/url]

Well, this is no biblical book, is is written more than 100 years after the canonical Gospels. I wonder why you use an altered Giospel for your argumentation what Jesus did or not.

 

Based on Ezekiel 18:20 and the saying of Jesus above , I dare say that Jesus did not want to be crucified to death for all the sins of human beings

Well, lets look what Jesus said about that matter:

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many

ÃóÃóÊøóì ÇÈúäõ ÇáÅöäúÓóÇäö ÞóÃú ÌóÇÃó áÇó áöíõÎúÃóãó¡ Èóáú áöíóÎúÃöãó æóíóÈúÃöáó äóÃúÓóåõ ÃöÃúíóÉð Úóäú ßóËöíÑöíäó

 

According to Islam every child is born sinless, and no sin is inherited. Islam does not recognize any original sin whatsoever,

It seems this is directed against the catholic notion of "inborn sin", I don't believe that concept is true.

Edited by looking by

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It seems to me that you are so desperate by making the allegation above. I have read the Gospel of Matthew and I find that you are to twist the Gospel.

Well, the "allegation" is that the time Jesus and His parents left for Egypt could be up to 2 years #can be found in the Gospel of Matthew:

Matthe 2:16 When Herod realised that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi.

æóÚöäúÃóãóÇ ÃóÃúÑóßó åöíÑõæÃõÓõ Ãóäøó ÇáúãóÌõæÓó ÓóÎöÑõæÇ ãöäúåõ¡ ÇÓúÊóæúáóì Úóáóíúåö ÇáúÛóÖóÈõ ÇáÔøóÃöíÃõ¡ ÃóÃóÑúÓóáó æóÞóÊóáó ÌóãöíÚó ÇáÕøöÈúíóÇäö Ãöí ÈóíúÊö áóÃúãò æóÌõæóÇÑöåóÇ¡ ãöäö ÇÈúäö ÓóäóÊóíúäö ÃóãóÇ Ãõæäó¡ ÈöÃóÓóÈö Òóãóäö ÙõåõæÑö ÇáäøóÌúãö ßóãóÇ ÊóÃóÞøóÞóåõ ãöäó ÇáúãóÌõæÓö

However you got the idea that it must have been "soon after", the verse quorted above says it up to 2 years after the birth.

 

The historical accuracy of this event has been questioned, since no other document from the period makes any reference to such a massacre.Such a massacre would certainly have been noted by contemporary historians.

There is only one historian that mentions more than the mere existence of Herod the Great. And this historians notices many atrocities done by him. A rather minor killing of several dozens children might very well be overlooked.

 

So if you claim that "Not soon after the birth, but after the visit of the magoi. Which can be every time up to two years, according to Matthew" based on Matthew 2:16, you are wrong for the massacre did not happen!!!

Well, according to Matthew it did happen, so according to Matthew it was up to 2 years later :sl: If you doubt Matthew, I doubt that Josephus is complete in his account. He is rather concentrated on the intrigues and strifes within the Herod family, than about what he did to other inhabitants of Jerusalem, and even less (if any) he was interested in what was done to peasants in Bethlehem.

 

If some incidents had happened, Luke would most likely wrote about them.

I doubt. Luke is the one who rather tries to avoid speaking about bad things doe by Romans. Herod was a Roman citizen ...

 

The verses of the Gospel below clearly state that Jesus is not peaceful!

Lets look into the context:

 

Matthew 10:16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

10:21 Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell

 

Noe your quote:

Matthew 10: 34 Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law- 36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.

 

10:39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

 

These are not the words of one who wants His followers to stir up troubles, but of one who warn them because of the troubles His message will bring to those who preach it. Read the whole chapter, and You will see it.

 

The verses of the Gospel state the Jesus is not peaceful.

John 16:2 They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. 3 They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me.

2

ÓóÊõØúÑóÃõæäó ÎóÇÑöÌó ÇáúãóÌóÇãöÚö¡ Èóáú ÓóíóÃúÊöí æóÞúÊñ íóÙõäøõ Ãöíåö ãóäú íóÞúÊõáõßõãú Ãóäøóåõ íõÄóÃøöí ÎöÃúãóÉð áöáåö. 3 æóåõãú íóÃúÚóáõæäó åóÃóÇ Èößõãú áÃóäøóåõãú áóãú íóÚúÑöÃõæÇ ÃóÈöí¡ æóáÇó ÚóÑóÃõæä

It seems you call "not peaceful" the prediction that the enemies of Jesus will not be peaceful.

 

Corrected some typing errors[using large font size is not allowed]

Edited by looking by

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Peace from our Lord,

Then why do you Christians claim that all human beings inherit Adam and Eve's sins?

This is no claim of "the Christians", it is a catholic doctrine. I am no Catholic, I don't share this view.

 

Ezekiel Chapter 18 verse 20 has refuted your false claim !!!!

If You mean the claim that the sin of Adam has been inherited, this is not my claim. I can't see any point of my faith that can be refuted by this verse.

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Salaams peeps,

 

This plural of respect is not present in ancient Hebrew........Right. But this no plural of respect. It is something else.

 

Elohim has plural morphological form in Hebrew, but it is used with singular verbs and adjectives in the Hebrew text when the particular meaning of the God of israel (a singular deity) is traditionally understood. Thus the very first words of the Bible are breshit bara elohim, where bara ברא is a verb inflected as third person singular masculine perfect. If Elohim were an ordinary plural word, then the plural verb form bar'u בראו would have been used in this sentence instead. Such plural grammatical forms are in fact found in cases where Elohim has semantically plural reference (not referring to the God of israel).

 

The etymology of the word Elohim is unknown. There are many theories, however. The most likely derivation comes from the word Elohim ('lhm) found in the Ugarit archives, meaning the family or pantheon associated with the Canaanite father God El.

 

Joel Hoffman derives the word from the common Canaanite word elim, with the mater lectionis heh inserted to distinguish the israelite God from other gods. He argues that elohim thus patterns with Abram/Abraham and Sarai/Sarah.[1] (See also Yahweh.)

Karel van der Toorn repeats the common claim that elohim is the plural of eloah, but D. Pardee notes the lack of any clear etymology for eloah.[2]

Some trace its origin in el or ul which may mean ("to be strong") or possibly ("to be in front"), from which also are derived ayil ("ram", the one in front of the flock) and elah (the prominent "terebinth"); Elohim would then be an expanded plural form of El. (However, Semitic etymologies are generally based on triconsonantal roots, which this proposal completely ignores.)

Others relate the word (and Eloah, "a god") to alah ("to terrify") or alih ("to be perplexed, afraid; to seek refuge because of fear"). Eloah and Elohim, therefore, would be "He who is the object of fear or reverence," or "He with whom one who is afraid takes refuge".

The form of the word Elohim, with the ending -im, is plural and masculine, but the construction is usually singular, i.e. it governs a singular verb or adjective when referring to the Hebrew god, but reverts to its normal plural when used of heathen divinities (Psalms 96:5; 97:7). There are many theories as to why the word is plural:

 

In one view, predominant among monotheists, the word is plural in order to augment its meaning and form an abstraction meaning "Divine majesty".

Among orthodox Trinitarian Christian writers it is sometimes used as evidence for the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. This is regarded as fanciful by some secular linguists and some biblical scholars.

 

Wikipedia.

 

Peace

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Now, the cofession that there is only one God and no one beside Him is one part of the trinity doctrin. It is no refutation to quote verses that states this part of the trinity doctrin.

The verses of the Bible and the Holy Quran that I have presented to support my argument have nothing to do with the Trinity doctrine. In fact they state that God is One and Only so they reject God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. The Trinity was invented by Christian priests long after Jesus was gone so Jesus had nothing to with the Trinity. The Trinity is just a fairy tale.

 

The Bible and the Holy Quran state that God is One and Only but you the Trinitarian Christians claim that God is One in Three. Is 1 = 1+1+1? No! 1 is not equal to 3 ! Therefore the confession that there is only one God and no one beside Him is not one part of the trinity doctrine.

 

Well that way of speaking can be called slandering.

The Trinity denies the Oneness of God so it is not a slander to call it the Satanic Trinity.

 

Any prove of that?

 

The 300 bishops at Nicea were corrupt and immoral for inventing the Trinity that defies the Oneness of God. The Matthew, Mark, and Luke, authors of the first three Gospels, believed that Jesus was not God (see Mark 10:18 and Matthew 19:17). The bishops voted to make the full deity of Christ the accepted position for the church. The Council of Nicea voted to make the Trinity the official doctrine of the church. How could a group of men vote to make the full deity of a powerless man (Jesus)? Were the bishops God? If you agree with the corrupt and immoral bishops, you and Christian priests could vote to make the full deity of GW Bush, Hiler, Mussolini, Stalin etc so that you could worship the criminals as your fake gods and accepted by your church. The question is "Who are you to vote to make the full deity of a man? You are not God but a bunch of powerless and weak persons! Why don't you vote to make the full deity of a goat? Hahahahahah :sl: hahahaha

 

What about those parts of ther trinity doctrin that were formulated more that 100 years before that council?

Oh you mean that the Trinity doctrine were formulated more that 100 years before that council. However, Jesus had nothing to do with the Trinity for Jesus was gone long before the Trinity was formulated.

 

Jesus is divine, this you can find in the Bible. That he is "cosubstantial" with the father was no invention at Nicea, but formulated earlier. And so on.

 

Matthew, Mark, and Luke, authors of the first three Gospels, believed that Jesus was not God (see Mark 10:18 and Matthew 19:17). To say that Jesus was God is to go against what these very authors of the Gospels. They also believed that he was lesser than God. In fact, John quotes Jesus as saying: “...the Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28). And Paul declares that the head of every woman is her husband, the head of every man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God (see 1 Corinthians 11:3). The Bible clearly teaches that there is only one true God, the one whom Jesus worshipped (see John 17: 3). Jesus never was God, and never will be. In the Bible, God declares: “Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.” (Isaiah 43:10).

 

We find here that Jesus was not co-equal with the Father, for Jesus said: “...the Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28).

 

People forget this and they say that Jesus is equal to the Father. Whom should we believe — Jesus or the people? Muslims and Christians agree that God is self-existent. This means that He does not derive his existence from anyone. Yet John tells us that Jesus’ existence is caused by the Father. Jesus said in this Gospel: “...I live because of the Father...” (John 6:57).

 

Furthermore, Jesus is reported to have said: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46). If one of them forsook the other, then they must be two separate entities so Jesus is not God.

 

Many people misunderstand the Bible; they feel that the belief in Jesus as God is so widespread that it must have come from the Bible. My statement above shows quite conclusively that the Bible does not teach that.The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is not God. In the Bible God is always someone else other than Jesus.

 

It is clear enough to everyone that the Quran denies the divinity of Jesus:

 

They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. (The Holy Quran 5:73)

 

Why turn they not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (The Holy Quran 5:74)

 

Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! (The Holy Quran 5:75)

 

Say: "Will ye worship, besides Allah, something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you? But Allah,- He it is that heareth and knoweth all things." (The Holy Quran 5:76)

 

Say: "O people of the Book (Christians and Jews)! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,- who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way. (The Holy Quran 5:77)

 

Curses were pronounced on those among the Children of israel who rejected Faith, by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary: because they disobeyed and persisted in excesses. (The Holy Quran 5:78)

 

Nor did they (usually) forbid one another the iniquities which they committed: evil indeed were the deeds which they did. (The Holy Quran 5:79)

 

Thou seest many of them turning in friendship to the Unbelievers. Evil indeed are (the works) which their souls have sent forward before them (with the result), that Allah's wrath is on them, and in torment will they abide. (The Holy Quran 5:80)

 

If only they had believed in Allah, in the Prophet, and in what hath been revealed to him, never would they have taken them for friends and protectors, but most of them are rebellious wrong-doers. (The Holy Quran 5:81)

 

NOTE: I will refute the rest of your posts soon for I am very busy now.

Edited by wiseguy

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No. "Arianism" was a designation for a specific doctrine. Not everybody who rejects thr trinity is an Arianist.

Nontrinitarians have mostly been groups that existed before the Nicene Creed was codified in 325 or are groups that developed after the Reformation, when many church doctrines came into question. In the early centuries of Christian history adoptionists, Arians, Ebionites, Gnostics, Marcionites, and others held nontrinitarian beliefs.

 

Groups such as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, The Church of the New Jerusalem and Jehovah's Witnesses, while accepting the Christian Scriptures, reject the Nicene Creed as false. They identify themselves emphatically as Christians. Some evangelical Christians, on the basis of their sola scriptura view, consider it as in no way authoritative, since it is not part of the Bible.

 

Yet, and therefore only one person should speak at a time in church, if you look into the context of this verse. So if we leave out your confusing word game, this verse is off-topic.

The Trinity has caused so much confusion among the Christians since 325 AD that proves that the Trinity is a false doctrine since God is not the author of confusion (I Corinthians 14:33). If you believe that the Trinity is true even though it has caused so much confusion, then your God is the author of confusion !

 

They got another problem instead. From the whole Bible, OT and NT, we have the information that God is a loving God.

 

Christians.....Your so-called 'loving God' allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 and Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9). How loving is your God?

 

God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21). God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the israelites can live there. He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3). He orders another attack and the killing of “all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and ######” (Joshua 6). In Judges 21, He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls who were taken to be forcibly raped and married. When they wanted more virgins, God told them to hide alongside the road and when they saw a girl they liked, kidnap her and forcibly rape her and make her your wife! Just about every other page in the Old Testament has God killing somebody! How loving is your God?

 

"And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain." (Deuteronomy 2:34)

 

You Christians claim that God is a loving God who sacrificed Jesus for your sins so your God is a loving God who had murdered Jesus for your sins. Therefore your God is a loving murderer. Do you worship a criminal as your God?

 

In Islam, Allah (God) is the All Merciful God and He will forgive you if you regret your sins and beg Him for His forgiveness sincerely and truly so Allah doesn't need a murder to forgive you. Therefore Allah is a Merciful and Loving God not a murderer.

 

Christians and Jews believe that this love was already there as a love within God (the shekhina theology within Judaism has a similar role as the trinity in that respect).

So you think that the Biblical verses above reflect a love within God. How loving is your God?

 

But with a monolithic God, it was ever selfish self-love, or something changed with God during creation (because he did not love before, but loved after creation) - or God is not love (which seems to be the position of many Muslims, e.g. al Qaida followers).

I have proven above that you are wrong.

 

It is enough to know that, with the exception of one, each of the 114 chapters of the Quran begins with the verse: "In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate." In one of the sayings of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) we are told that "God is more loving and kinder than a mother to her dear child."

 

'He (Allah) it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of darkness

into light. And He is full of mercy to the believers.' Qur'an 33:43

 

Thats simply contrary to my experience: everybody who believes in Christ is begotten by God:

John 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

 

The Old Testament claims that David is the only begotten son of God but the New Testament claims that Jesus is the only begotten son of God. The OT and the NT refute each other so God has no sons. Therefore Christianity is corrupt and immoral for claiming falsely that God has a son or sons.

 

Translations of the Qur'an, Chapter 112:

AL-IKHLAS (SINCERITY)

 

In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

 

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.

 

 

It is an open question whether there were more Christians that converted to Islam or Muslims who came to believe Jesus as their savior. But anyway, I don't think that such a comparison tells where the truth is.

 

The Bible and the Holy Quran tell us that God is the only Savior.

 

The Phenomenal Growth of Islam

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/frm-ch3-17.htm"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/frm-ch3-17.htm[/url]

 

At the end of this chapter, it may be appropriate to point out an important indication of the truth of Islam. It is well known that in the USA and the whole world, Islam is the fastest-growing religion. The following are some observations on this phenomenon:

 

“Islam is the fastest-growing religion in America, a guide and pillar of stability for many of our people...” (Hillary Rodham Clinton, Los Angeles Times).1

 

“Moslems are the world’s fastest-growing group...” (The Population Reference Bureau, USA Today).2

 

“....Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the country.” (Geraldine Baum; Newsday Religion Writer, Newsday).3

 

“Islam, the fastest-growing religion in the United States...” (Ari L. Goldman, New York Times).4

 

This phenomenon indicates that Islam is truly a religion from God. It is unreasonable to think that so many Americans and people from different countries have converted to Islam without careful consideration and deep contemplation before concluding that Islam is true. These converts have come from different countries, classes, races, and walks of life. They include scientists, professors, philosophers, journalists, politicians, actors, and athletes. To read the stories of people who have converted to Islam, please visit the links at (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/frm-ch3-17.htm"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/frm-ch3-17.htm[/url]

 

The points mentioned in this chapter constitute only some of the evidence supporting the belief that the Quran is the literal word of God, that Muhammad is truly a prophet sent by God, and that Islam is truly a religion from God.

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The writers of the Bible have corrupted the Bible into a lie (Jeremiah 8:8) and turned a loving God into a cruel being so the Bible is full of brutality and cruelty.

 

In Islam, Allah (God) is the All Merciful God and He will forgive you if you regret your sins and beg Him for His forgiveness sincerely and truly so Allah doesn't need a murder nor a crucifixion to forgive you. Therefore Allah is a Merciful and Loving God not a murderer.

 

A believer loves, and is grateful to God for the bounties He bestowed upon him, but being aware of the fact that his good deeds, whether mental or physical, are far from being commensurate with Divine favors, he is always anxious lest God should punish him, here or in the Hereafter. He, therefore, fears Him, surrenders himself to Him and serves Him with great humility. One cannot be in such a mental state without being almost all the time mindful of God. Remembering God is thus the life force of faith, without which it fades and withers away.

 

The Quran promote this feeling of gratitude by repeating the attributes of God very frequently. We find most of these attributes mentioned together in the following verses of the Quran:

 

"Allah is God; there is no God but Allah, Allah is the Knower of the unseen and the visible; Allah is the All-Merciful, the All-Compassionate. Allah is the King, the All-Holy, the All-Peace, the Guardian of Faith, the All-Preserver, the All-Mighty, the All-Compeller, the All-Sublime. Glory be to God, above that they associate! Allah is God the Creator, the Maker, the Shaper. To Allah belong the Names Most Beautiful. All that is in the heavens and the earth magnifies Allah; Allah is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise." (The Holy Quran 59:22-24)

 

"There is no God but Allah, the Living, the Everlasting. To Allah belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. Allah knows what lies before them and what is after them. His throne comprises the heavens and earth; the preserving of them oppresses Him not; Allah is the All-High, the All-Glorious." (The Holy Quran 2:255)

Edited by wiseguy

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For your kind information: "wave" and "particle" are not synonymous words. Until the rise of quantum physics, it was thopught that these concepts are mutually exclusive. Yet physicist have learned that a wave can be a particle.

 

God (Allah) says that God is not a man and none is like Him (God) so Man and God are different beings. If you claim that God is a man then you are contradicting the Bible and the Holy Quran.

 

It's not me who does it, it was God who did when He decided to come to rescue us.

God says that God is not a man so God will never become a man and a man is not God's co-equal. Even Jesus admits that God is greater than him (Jesus) so God is greater than a man. Therefore you are wrong when you equalize a man to God.

 

You believe this is impossible for God? I believe God is greater.

 

God says that none is like God and God is not a man so God will not become a man. Yes God is greater than a man so God will not become a man.

 

Back to your question:

 

You must not think that when God became man He abandoned heaven. It was more like being at two places at the same times (please don't say this is impossible for God :sl: ). God in heaven did never die, but Jesus died.

 

According to you and other Christians , God came to the world and became a man (Jesus) and then he was crucified to death to cleanse sins of man. And now you are saying " You must not think that when God became man He abandoned heaven. It was more like being at two places at the same times (please don't say this is impossible for God :sl: ). God in heaven did never die, but Jesus died." You are clearly contradicting yourself.

 

How can God become two beings at the same time when Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace and bless be upon them) say that God is One and Only? You are illogical ! You are telling us that there are two gods instead of One true God thus you contradict the basic teaching of Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace and bless be upon them).

 

There was no other way. To pay for the sin of another, you must be sinless.

 

You believe that a sin (the crucifixion aka the murder of a sinless man) would cleanse all the sins of man so you think that you have to murder a sinless man to cleanse your sins! In other word you believe a crime would cleanse all the crimes of man. You are illogical and brutal for believing that a murder would cleanse your own sins. A crime would breeds more crimes.

 

You are slandering and insulting God by claiming falsely that Jesus, who is sinless, sacrificed himself to cleanse all sins of human beings. You mean that God is cruel for He needs a murder to cleanse all the sins of human beings. Would you murder a victim of a rapist to cleanse the sins of the rapist? Christianity is illogical and insulting our mind.

 

Well, it is well known that it were not the Jews who killed Jesus.

John 10:17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life- only to take it up again. 18 No-one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.

 

The Holy Quran Chapter 4 verse 157-158:

 

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.

 

The Gospels contradict one another regarding the so-called 'crucifixion of Jesus' when they make contradictory verses regarding the so-called 'crucifixion of Jesus' that refute one another so they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not!

 

This happened after His resurrection.

 

Jesus was not crucified to death because Allah had save Jesus so there was no resurrection of Jesus. Jesus is alive.

 

Even the Bible rejects the crucifixion of Jesus by denying the alleged 'resurrection of Jesus'. There is to be no resurrection of the dead ( Job 7:9/ Eccl 9:5/ Is 26:14)

 

Christianity is a corrupt and immoral religion for insulting and slandering God (Allah) and His prophets and messengers. Even the Bible is corrupted by the writers of the Bible themselves (Jeremiah 8:8) !!!

Edited by wiseguy

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Peace from our Lord,

I doubt that "consistently" is the right word.

You pick out the verses that fit your point of view, but this is only one part of the truth.

 

Look at this verse:

Luke 13:31 At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you. 32 He replied, Go tell that fox, 'I will drive out demons and heal people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.' 33 In any case, I must keep going today and tomorrow and the next day- for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!

 

Matthew 12:14-16, John 7:1, 8:59, 10:39, 11:53-54, and Mark 1:45 show that Jesus consistently feared death. Jesus went out of his way to hide, run, and attempt escape from the Roman and Jewish authorities so Matthew 12:14-16, John 7:1, 8:59, 10:39, 11:53-54, and Mark 1:45 have refuted Luke 13:31.

 

Jesus avoided to be put to death before time. The plan of God included that Jesus workeed miracles, and preached to the people.And if You look where he travelled then: well, through the territory of that Herod...

 

If Jesus knew that he would be crucified to death by the Jews and Romans at a certain hour on certain day, Jesus should not fear nor avoid the Romans and Jews since he knew that he would not be crucified to death before the time come. The fact is Jesus did not want to be crucified to death so he avoided the Romans and Jews who wanted to crucify him. And Allah the All-Mighty had saved Jesus from the crucifixion.

 

If you know that Mafia would kidnap you on Dec 25, 2020 and murder you on Dec 26, 2020, why would you fear and avoid Mafia before the time comes?

 

When the time came, he did this:

John 18:4 Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, Who is it you want? 5 Jesus of Nazareth, they replied. I am he, Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) 6 When Jesus said, I am he, they drew back and fell to the ground. 7 Again he asked them, Who is it you want? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. 8 I told you that I am he, Jesus answered. If you are looking for me, then let these men goÇ

 

The verses of the Gospel above are illogical because:

 

1) Why must Jesus introduced himself to Judas and a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees twice? After all Judas knew Jesus. So the verses above are illogical.

 

2) The verses of the Gospel of John above contradict the verses of Mark, Matthew and Luke:

 

John 18:3-5 contradicts Mark, Matthew and Luke that state Judas identifies Jesus.

 

This contradiction proves that Jesus was neither arrested nor crucified to death for the Gospels refute each other.

 

Do You know that this is an quotation out of the OT, of a Psalm who prophecied the sufferings of the messiah? Things are somewhat more complicated as you want to show them.

Yes I know that Psalms 37:28 belongs to the OT. As a Christian, do you believe in the OT?

 

“For the LORD loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. They will be protected forever,but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off;” (Psalms 37:28). This verse states that 'the LORD loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. They will be protected forever' so it does not prophesy the sufferings of the messiah. Psalms 37:28 tells us that God will protects His messengers and prophets such as Jesus and Muhammad etc (peace and bless upon them).

 

Well, the answer can be found in the book of Acts, chapter 2, verse 25 to 33. It is too long to be quoted here (lest the mods become nervous about my quoting the Bible :sl: ), but You can read there how Peter shows that the promise of God to protect the Holy one was fulfilled by raising Christ from the dead.

The Gospels and the Acts refute each other so both the Gospels and the Acts are corrupt and not reliable. For example:

 

1) According to Acts 2:30, Peter claims that Jesus is the "fruit of his [David's] loins, according to the flesh." But this is denied in Matthew (1:18, 22:41-45) and Luke (1:34) where it is said that Joseph was not the father of Jesus.

 

2) According to Acts 2:32 , Jesus hath God raised up. However, John 2:19-21 refute Acts 2:32 by saying that Jesus raised himself from the dead. Therefore the Gospel and the Acts refute each so they are corrupt and unreliable.

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No, you forgot there are more option than this:

The evidence you brought forth is incomplete and therefore misleading

So you admit that your Bible is incomplete and therefore misleading.

 

Since Jesus was man also, we see human traits in Him

So Jesus is a man and he is neither God nor the son of God. The Bible calls Jesus the son of man!

 

Jesus was abandoned because He took the sins of the whole world.

 

According to Psalms 37:28, God will loves the just such as Jesus and Muhammad (peace and bless be upon them) and will not forsake his faithful ones such as Jesus and Muhammad. They will be protected forever so God will not abandon Jesus.

 

I wonder what will happen if I used this method to give you unacceptable "options" as "the only choise". Probably I would be kicked out of IF ...

 

It would be my pleasure to prove that Trinitarian Christians like you and Christianity are corrupt and immoral for slandering Allah (God) and His prophets and messengers.

 

This refutes the ideas that I have to die for my father's sins. No less, no more.

 

So we do not inherit the sins of Adam and we are not responsible for the sins of Adam. After all Allah the All-Merciful had forgiven Adam and cleansed his sins. Islam is right when Islam states that all human beings are born sinless for we are not responsible for the sins of other people.

 

Status of Human Beings in Islam

 

Prime Creation: Human being is the prime creation of God. He says, "We have indeed honored the children of Adam; spread them in the land and the sea, provided them with good things; and preferred them in esteem over many things that We have created." (Qur'an: chp. 17, verse 70)

 

Born Sinless:

Islam teaches that every human being is born sinless; no child carries the burden of his or her ancestors' sins. God says, "No carrier shall carry the burden of others." (Qur'an; chp. 35, verse 18). Each human being is born with a pure conscience which can absorb and accept the true message of God. It is only the social and familial influences which take a person away from God's message.

 

Accountability:

 

Islam also emphasizes on the issue of responsibility and accountability of human beings--each person is responsible for his or her own actions. Although Islam teaches that God has predetermined the span of our life and the time of our death, it does not mean that even our actions are predetermined by Him. We surely are free in our actions and are, therefore, accountable for them. God only provides guidance for us to know what is good and what is bad. He says, "We created man of a water-drop...Surely We guided him to the right way--now whether he (follows it and) be grateful or (goes astray and) be ungrateful is up to him." (Qur'an: chp. 76, verse 3).

 

Well, this is no biblical book, is is written more than 100 years after the canonical Gospels. I wonder why you use an altered Giospel for your argumentation what Jesus did or not.

 

Please read the highlighted word:

 

Jesus is recorded to have said: No blood offering, of beast or bird, or man, can take away sin, for how can the conscience be purged from sin by the shedding of innocent blood? Nay, it will increase the condemnation. (Gospel of the Nazarenes)

 

There were many Gospels etc that did not support the Trinity etc so they were banned by the Catholic church. Why was/is the Catholic church so afraid of the Gospels etc that it bans them?

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Peace from our Lord,

Elohim has plural morphological form in Hebrew, but it is used with singular verbs and adjectives in the Hebrew text when the particular meaning of the God of israel (a singular deity) is traditionally understood.

Right. It was not me who brought 'elowhiym into the discussion, and I agree with much of what you say.

 

Such plural grammatical forms are in fact found in cases where Elohim has semantically plural reference (not referring to the God of israel).

Sometimes even humans.

 

Karel van der Toorn repeats the common claim that elohim is the plural of eloah, but D. Pardee notes the lack of any clear etymology for eloah.[2]

Thats no valid argument, the word 'elo(a)h (the (a) is a weak a required by the following h) exists, you can find it from Deuteronomy 32:15 to Hanakuk 3:3 in the OT. According to my Bible program, 57 times.

 

As to the etymology: the difference between 'el and 'elo(a)h in Hebrew consonantal script is the same as the difference between jah and JHWH ...

 

Among orthodox Trinitarian Christian writers it is sometimes used as evidence for the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. This is regarded as fanciful by some secular linguists and some biblical scholars.

If one accepts trinity, this doctrine sheds some light on 'elowhiym, but arguing the other way round is no valid argument.

 

I didn't come up with 'elowhiym, it was visha, a muslim. All I said was that 'elowhiym is no plural of reverence, because that kind of plural does not exist in ancient Hebrew. When I looked for a king mentioined by a plural, all I found was an example in a part of the OT that was written in Aramaic (Ezra 4:15), in a letter of a Persian King.

 

And what you have written confirms my thesis.

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Peace from our Lord,

The verses of the Bible and the Holy Quran that I have presented to support my argument have nothing to do with the Trinity doctrine.

They have nothing to do with: We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.######you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/style_images/1/folder_post_icons/icon14.gif[/img] This ist the first sentence of the Nicean creed. And as far as I can see, this part of the trinity doctrine is confirmed by the verses you quoted. Or from a later ("final") formulation of the trinity doctrine: And yet there are not three eternal beings, but one who is eternal; as there are not three uncreated and unlimited beings, but one who is uncreated and unlimited.

 

In fact they state that God is One and Only so they reject God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

The trinity doctrine states that God is one. Stating that God is one is no rejecting of Fathter, Son and Spirit.

 

Is 1 = 1+1+1? No! 1 is not equal to 3 !

But 1*1*1 = 1. You use the wrong kind of arithmetric.

 

The 300 bishops at Nicea were corrupt and immoral for inventing the Trinity that defies the Oneness of God.

Well, stating that God is one is a very special way to deny the oneness of God...

 

And accordingh to your logic the trinity is wrong because it was invented by corrupt bishops, and the proof for that corruption is that they "invented" the trinity. Thats no logic, that is bubbling sentences without real meaning.

 

The Matthew, Mark, and Luke, authors of the first three Gospels, believed that Jesus was not God (see Mark 10:18 and Matthew 19:17).

Well, there are other ways to interpret this than the reductionism you use.

 

Yet both Matthew and Mark confess Jesus as Son of God (Mk 1:1) and the only way to know the Father (Mt 11:27), and Matthew even tells us how believers should be baptized:

Matthews 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in1 the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.'

18

ÃóÊóÞóÃøóãó íóÓõæÚõ æóßóáøóãóåõãú ÞóÇÆöáÇð: «ÃõÃöÚó Åöáíøó ßõáøõ ÓõáúØóÇäò Ãöí ÇáÓøóãóÇÃö æóÚóáóì ÇáÃóÑúÖö. 19 ÃóÇÃúåóÈõæÇ ÅöÃóäú¡ æóÊóáúãöÃõæÇ ÌóãöíÚó ÇáÃõãóãö¡ æóÚóãøöÃõæåõãú ÈöÇÓúãö ÇáÂÈö æóÇáÇöÈúäö æóÇáÑøõæÃö ÇáúÞõÃõÓöº 20 æóÚóáøöãõæåõãú Ãóäú íóÚúãóáõæÇ Èößõáøö ãóÇ ÃóæúÕóíúÊõßõãú Èöåö. æóåóÇ ÃóäóÇ ãóÚóßõãú ßõáøó ÇáÃóíøóÇãö Åöáóì ÇäúÊöåóÇÃö ÇáÒøóãóÇä

 

How could a group of men vote to make the full deity of a powerless man (Jesus)? Were the bishops God?

It were not the bishops who did it. They found it in the Bible, it was God Himself who declared it. See below.

 

If you agree with the corrupt and immoral bishops, you and Christian priests could vote to make the full deity of GW Bush, Hiler, Mussolini, Stalin etc

None of them is mentioned in the Bible as God. You laugh at something you don't understand, like all those who laugh at Islam because they always look at it from the outside. For example, from a Christian point of view it is easy to show that in the Qur'an Allah is described as being inferior to a writing pen. I could laugh at that, but I don't because I know this is not the way you look upon it.

 

Oh you mean that the Trinity doctrine were formulated more that 100 years before that council. However, Jesus had nothing to do with the Trinity for Jesus was gone long before the Trinity was formulated.

Well listen to what Jesus said to John:

Revelation 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: 'Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades

17

ÃóáóãøóÇ ÑóÃóíúÊõåõ ÇÑúÊóãóíúÊõ ÚöäúÃó ÞóÃóãóíúåö ßóÇáúãóíúÊö¡ ÃóáóãóÓóäöí ÈöíóÃöåö Çáúíõãúäóì æóÞóÇáó: «áÇó ÊóÎóÃú! ÃóäóÇ ÇáÃóæøóáõ æóÇáÂÎöÑõ¡ 18 ÃóäóÇ ÇáúÃóíøõ. ßõäúÊõ ãóíúÊÇð¡ æóáóßöäú åóÇ ÃóäóÇ Ãóíøñ Åöáóì ÃóÈóÃö ÇáÂÈöÃöíäó. æóáöí ãóÃóÇÊöíÃõ ÇáúãóæúÊö æóÇáúåóÇæöíóÉö

There is no-one before Jesus, and there will be no-one after Him, He is eternal. This is but one verse, I could cite more to show you that Jesus laid the foundation to the trinity doctrin.

The trinity doctrine is an attempt to clarify what is written in the Bible about Father, Son, and Spirit. The attempt came after Jesus, but the foundations of it were laid by Jesus and the messengers He sent out to us.

 

In fact, John quotes Jesus as saying: “...the Father is greater than I.†(John 14:28). And Paul declares that the head of every woman is her husband, the head of every man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God (see 1 Corinthians 11:3).

A better verse to understand this would be 1.Corinthians 15:28. I accept and believe the subjection of the Son to the Father, see Philippians 2:6-11 for a fuller account of that. As far as I know (I understand the Bible better than those old creed overloaded with philosophical terms) the bishops that spoke of equality did not deny this subjection.

 

[[Too much quotes: posting split into two parts]]

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