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[[continuation:]]

 

The Bible clearly teaches that there is only one true God,

Yes, in many verses. One of them is:

1.John 5:20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life

æóÅöäøóäóÇ äóÚúáóãõ Ãóäøó ÇÈúäó Çááåö ÞóÃú ÌóÇÃó Åöáóì ÇáÃóÑúÖö æóÃóäóÇÑó ÃóÃúåóÇäóäóÇ áöäóÚúÑöÃó ÇáÅöáåó ÇáúÃóÞøó. æóäóÃúäõ ÇáÂäó äóÃúíóÇ Ãöíåö¡ áÃóäøóäóÇ Ãöí ÇÈúäöåö íóÓõæÚó ÇáúãóÓöíÃö. åóÃóÇ åõæó ÇáÅöáåõ ÇáúÃóÞøõ¡ æóÇáúÃóíóÇÉõ ÇáÃóÈóÃöíøóÉ

 

the one whom Jesus worshipped (see John 17: 3). Jesus never was God, and never will be. In the Bible, God declares: “Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.†(Isaiah 43:10).

It is Isaiah that states that the LORD does give His glory to no other, and it is in the chapter you quoted from whre we can find that the Son shared the glory of the Father:

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

ÃóãóÌøöÃúäöí Ãöí ÃóÖúÑóÊößó ÇáÂäó¡ ÃóíøõåóÇ ÇáÂÈõ¡ ÈöãóÇ ßóÇäó áöí ãöäú ãóÌúÃò ÚöäúÃóßó ÞóÈúáó Êóßúæöíäö ÇáúÚóÇáóãö

You can detect the same in John 12:37-41 (compare with Isaiah!), and there is some evidence in Ph 2:8-11 (the passage mentioned in the first part) pointing into the same direction: the God speaking to Isaiah was Jesus. Indeed, Jesus Himself said that it was He who sent all those Prophets to Jerusalem is about to send more (Mt 23:34-39).

 

Furthermore, Jesus is reported to have said: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?†(Matthew 27:46). If one of them forsook the other, then they must be two separate entities so Jesus is not God.

I already answered that ...

 

The core of the matter is: in the Bible you have statements that identify Jesus with God, and statements that speak of son and Father as different "entities". The debate how this can be lead to the trinity doctrin.

 

Quoting only selected verses from the Bible, it is easy to "prove" that Jesus is not divine, or that He is no man, but identical to the Father, ot that there are three Gods, and other errors rejected by the trinity doctrin. If you want me to elaborate on this, tell me, but I don't like to be accused of preaching my religion only because I corrected your misrepresentation of the trinity doctrin.

 

It is clear enough to everyone that the Quran denies the divinity of Jesus:

Well, we were warned in the Bible not to accepted an angel from heaven that brings a message contradicting the Gospel message, and if you tell me that the Qor'an contradicts the Bible, well, thats bad for the Qor'an...

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PropellerAds

looking by........I am very busy now. I will refute all of your allegations above soon. It is my pleasure to refute yours and prove that you are wrong.

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Peace from our Lord,

Nontrinitarians have mostly been groups that existed before the Nicene Creed was codified in 325 or are groups that developed after the Reformation, when many church doctrines came into question. In the early centuries of Christian history adoptionists, Arians, Ebionites, Gnostics, Marcionites, and others held nontrinitarian beliefs.

I know there are Christians rejecting the trinity doctrin (though Mormons have their own book added and AFAIK they have left monotheism, so they are not Christian)

 

My point is that there are many positions that deviate from trinitarian faith, e.g. the belief in three Gods. That this is a transgression of the limits of our religion (as defined by the trinity doctrin et.al.), you can even read in the Qur'an.

 

The Trinity has caused so much confusion among the Christians since 325 AD

Well, the confusion did not arise that late, and in my eyes the source is somewhat different:

Acts 20:29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number some will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

29

ÃóÅöäøöí ÃóÚúáóãõ Ãóäøóåõ ÈóÚúÃó ÑóÃöíáöí ÓóíóäúÃóÓøõ Èóíúäóßõãú ÃöÆóÇÈñ ÎóÇØöÃóÉñ¡ áÇó ÊõÔúÃöÞõ Úóáóì ÇáúÞóØöíÚö. 30 Èóáú Åöäøó ÞóæúãÇð ãöäúßõãú ÃóäúÊõãú ÓóíóÞõæãõæäó æóíõÚóáøöãõæäó ÊóÚóÇáöíãó ãõäúÃóÑöÃóÉð¡ áöíóÌõÑøõæÇ ÇáÊøóáÇóãöíÃó æóÑóÇÃóåõã

 

Christians.....Your so-called 'loving God' allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 and Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9). How loving is your God?

All examples are from the OT. Some of them are blatantly misinterpreted (e.g. Ps 137:9 does not speak of an act of God, but is the wish of oppressed people), but the general point ist that in the times of the OT, God prepared His people for the coming of the Messiah. As our messengers told:

Acts 14:15 'Friends, why are you doing this? We too are only human, like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made heaven and earth and sea and everything in them. 16 In the past, he let all nations go their own way. 17 Yet he has not left himself without testimony: he has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy.' [[emphasis added]]

15

æóåõãóÇ íóÕúÑõÎóÇäö: «áöãóÇÃóÇ ÊóÃúÚóáõæäó åòÃóÇ ÃóíøõåóÇ ÇáäøóÇÓõ¿ ãóÇ äóÃúäõ ÅöáÇøó ÈóÔóÑñ ÖõÚóÃóÇÃõ ãöËúáõßõãú¡ äõÈóÔøöÑõßõãú ÈöÃóäú ÊóÑúÌöÚõæÇ Úóäú Ã¥Ãöåö ÇáÃóÔúíóÇÃö ÇáúÈóÇØöáóÉö Åöáóì Çááåö ÇáúÃóíøö ÕóÇäöÚö ÇáÓøóãóÇÃö æóÇáÃóÑúÖö æóÇáúÈóÃúÑö¡ æóßõáøö ãóÇ ÃöíåóÇ¡ 16 æóÞóÃú ÊóÑóßó ÇáÃõãóãó Ãöí ÇáúÚõÕõæÑö ÇáúãóÇÖöíóÉö íóÓúáõßõæäó Ãöí ØõÑõÞöåöãú¡ 17 ãóÚó Ãóäøóåõ áóãú íóÊúÑõßúåõãú Ãõæäó ÔóÇåöÃò íóÃõáøõåõãú Úóáóíúåö. Ãóåõæó ãóÇÒóÇáó íõäúÚöãõ Úóáóíúßõãú ÈöÇáúÎóíúÑö¡ æóíóÑúÒõÞõßõãú ãöäó ÇáÓøóãóÇÃö ÃóãúØóÇÑÇð æóãóæóÇÓöãó ãõËúãöÑóÉð¡ æóíõÔúÈöÚõßõãú ØóÚóÇãÇð æóíóãúáóÃõ ÞõáõæÈóßõãú ÓõÑõæÑÇð

 

It is enough to know that, with the exception of one, each of the 114 chapters of the Quran begins with the verse: "In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate." In one of the sayings of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) we are told that "God is more loving and kinder than a mother to her dear child."

It is known from the oldest Qor'anic manuscripts that the basmala was a means to seperate the suras and no part of the original revelation. AFAIK, there is at least one sunna school that has said that all the time.

 

Well, as to the Sura that is not introduced by the basmala: it is easy to find verses in there that seem to contradict your claim of God being loving. I have read postings of people that pick out ayats like those to "prove" that Allah is cruel and hateful (not von IF, on other forums). If you want, you can find the in the Qor'an the same things you picked from the OT.

 

And to balance your qotations:

Psalm 103:1 Praise the Lord, my soul; all my inmost being, praise his holy name. 2 Praise the Lord, my soul, and forget not all his benefits— 3 who forgives all your sins and heals all your diseases, 4 who redeems your life from the pit and crowns you with love and compassion, 5 who satisfies your desires with good things so that your youth is renewed like the eagle's. 6 The Lord works righteousness and justice for all the oppressed. 7 He made known his ways to Moses, his deeds to the people of israel: 8 the Lord is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love.

1

ÈóÇÑößöí íóÇäóÃúÓöí ÇáÑøóÈøó¡ æóáúíóÃúãóÃú ßõáøõ ãóÇ Ãöí ÃóÇÎöáöí ÇÓúãóåõ ÇáúÞõÃøõæÓó. 2 ÈóÇÑößöí íóÇäóÃúÓöí ÇáÑøóÈøó¡ æóáÇó ÊóäúÓóíú ÌóãöíÚó ÎóíúÑóÇÊöåö. 3 Åöäøóåõ íóÛúÃöÑõ ÌóãöíÚó ÂËóÇãößö æóíõÈúÑöíÃõ ßõáøó ÃóãúÑóÇÖößö. 4 æóíóÃúÃöí ãöäó ÇáúãóæúÊö ÃóíóÇÊóßö æóíõÊóæøöÌõßö ÈöÇáÑøóÃúãóÉö æóÇáÑøóÃúÃóÉö. 5 æóíõÔúÈöÚõ ÈöÇáúÎóíúÑö ÚõãúÑóßö ÃóíóÊóÌóÃøóÃõ ßóÇáäøóÓúÑö ÔóÈóÇÈõßö. 6 ÇáÑøóÈøõ íóÃúßõãõ ÈöÇáÚóÃúáö æóíõäúÕöÃõ ÌóãöíÚó ÇáúãóÙúáõæãöíäó. 7 ÃóØúáóÚó ãõæÓóì Úóáóì ØõÑõÞöåö æóÈóäöí ÅöÓúÑóÇÆöíáó Úóáóì ÃóÃúÚóÇáöåö

 

My point was on another level: How can you be loving without an object of love? A monolithic God was not loving until He created at least one thing or person to be loved by Him...

 

The Phenomenal Growth of Islam

Well, we are warned in the Bible that false teachings and rebellion against God will prevail in the last days before our Lord comes back again - so what conclusions should we draw from that? :sl: BTW, an analysis shows that most iof the growth of Islams stems from the many children of the Muslim peoples, while much of the growth of Christianity comes from conversions ... but as I said, numbers prove nothing.

 

As to the USA: I'm German :sl: I leave this for other guys to answer.

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Peace from our Lord,

The writers of the Bible have corrupted the Bible into a lie (Jeremiah 8:8) and turned a loving God into a cruel being so the Bible is full of brutality and cruelty.

Jeremiah 8:8 speaks of the pen of the scribes, that functioned as lawyers and turned the just law of God into injustice. This is not on changing the book, but on adding traditions and interpretations that turn the content of the book upside down.

 

In Islam, Allah (God) is the All Merciful God

As I have shown, the same is true for the OT. There are many verses that show this. And if verses that speak of how God punishes people is a proof that a book is altered - well I get the impression that you will agree that Sura 9 is not from God (which explains why it is not introduced by the basmala?). :sl:

 

Your selective quoting may impress the uninformed, to the informed one it shows that you are not honest, which means that your case cannot be defended honestly by you. This is either a feature of your case, or of you. Try to find out which one is true.

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Peace from our God,

God (Allah) says that God is not a man and none is like Him (God) so Man and God are different beings. If you claim that God is a man then you are contradicting the Bible and the Holy Quran.

I said something different. But unless you are willing to learn what the trinity doctrin really says you will not understand that.

 

The first step is to understand that God is greater than our mind, that there is no easy formulae to describe God...

 

God says that God is not a man

In so far that God is no liar. And BTW, no trinitarian will claim that God the Father is a man ...

 

How can God become two beings at the same time when Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace and bless be upon them) say that God is One and Only? You are illogical !

How can an electron be a wave and a particle at the same time? This is "illogical". Yet it is true.

 

The Bible tells us that Jesus is God, that the world is created by Him? Who am I to contradict this?

 

You are telling us that there are two gods

No. One of the motives to formulate the trinity doctrines was to avoid saying that there are two Gods.

 

You believe that a sin (the crucifixion aka the murder of a sinless man) would cleanse all the sins of man so you think that you have to murder a sinless man to cleanse your sins!

This is basically the same thing that we read in the OT: to be cleansed from sin, blood has to been shed. In the OT it was the blood of animals, but this was only preliminary, for

Hebrews 10:4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Ãóãöäó ÇáúãõÓúÊóÃöíáö Ãóäú íõÒöíáó Ãóãõ ÇáËøöíÑóÇäö æóÇáÊøõíõæÓö ÎóØÇíóÇ ÇáäøóÇÓö

 

In other word you believe a crime would cleanse all the crimes of man. You are illogical and brutal for believing that a murder would cleanse your own sins.

Not murder, sacrifice.

 

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them,

John 10:17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18 No-one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.'

Åöäøó ÇáÂÈó íõÃöÈøõäöí áÃóäøöí ÃóÈúÃöáõ ÃóíóÇÊöí áößóíú ÃóÓúÊóÑöÃøóåóÇ

They thought they killed Jesus, but it only appeared to them, for He gave His life of His own account. You misunderstood this because you don't know about sacrifices. If you really knew that "they slew Him not", you would not speak of murder.

 

and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.

All Christians (and many non-Christians) agree that Jesus died, there is no doubt on this. As to Muslims, I have heard quite different opinions about what really happened. You have no surety, but only conjecture.

 

The Gospels contradict one another regarding the so-called 'crucifixion of Jesus' when they make contradictory verses regarding the so-called 'crucifixion of Jesus' that refute one another

You gave no examples of this, I know some apparent differences that can be explained if You know about the customs and language of that age. I don't know any real contradiction.

 

There is to be no resurrection of the dead ( Job 7:9/ Eccl 9:5/ Is 26:14)

Which means the Qor'an is wrong when it predicts a resurrection? What a kind of argument is this?

 

Job 7:9 does not deny resurrection, the passage (V.7-11) speaks about the short life and the dead leaving the world. Cf. Job 19:25-27.

Eccl 9:5 speaks of the ignorance of the dead.

Is 26,14 speaks of the "lords" (V.13) that ruled over israel, and contains the promise they will never return again.

 

You can find the resurrection in Dan 12, and of course in the NT. That it is hard to find in the OT has to with the changes that the saving death and resurrection of Jesus caused.

 

Matthew 22:29 Jesus replied, 'You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God

ÃóÑóÃøó Úóáóíúåöãú íóÓõæÚõ ÞóÇÆöáÇð: «ÃóäúÊõãú Ãöí ÖóáÇóáò áÃóäøóßõãú áÇó ÊóÃúåóãõæäó ÇáúßöÊóÇÈó æóáÇó ÞõÃúÑóÉó Ç

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Hi, long time no see.

 

The first step is to understand that God is greater than our mind, that there is no easy formulae to describe God...

But if God transform into humans, it must be easy to physically describe him.

 

How can an electron be a wave and a particle at the same time? This is "illogical". Yet it is true.

When did electrons be come waves? Actually, electrons are very simply understood...

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The problem is that of casual human understanding of Quantum Mechanics, not of the theory itself. Electron is not really either a wave or a particle. It's just that their behaviour can be described as one or the other under different circumstances. It is more accurate to say that it 'behaves' like a wave and particle

 

But 1*1*1 = 1. You use the wrong kind of arithmetric.

Interesting, so, you have the correct arithmetic to explain trinity ...then, looking by, please explain 1x1x1=1 in terms of mathematical equations

1. The Father(F) is God, the Son(S) is God, and the Holy Ghost(H) is God

2. But the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost is not the Father".

So, if F = G, S = G, and H = G, then it follows that F = S = H, while the second part of the statement suggests that F ¹ S ¹ H (meaning, "not equal").

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

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Peace from our Lord,

Matthew 12:14-16, John 7:1, 8:59, 10:39, 11:53-54, and Mark 1:45 show that Jesus consistently feared death.

Thats a logical fallacy: they can show this only if there are no verses that say otherwise. And all these verses show is only that Jesus avoided death, and I have already shown why:

Lk 13:33 In any case, I must press on today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem![[emphasis added]]

æóáßöäú áÇóÈõÃøó Ãóäú Ãõßóãøöáó ãóÓöíÑóÊöí Çáúíóæúãó æóÛóÃÇð æóãóÇ ÈóÚúÃóåõãóÇ¡ áÃóäøóåõ áÇó íõãúßöäõ Ãóäú íóåúáößó äóÈöíøñ ÅöáÇøó Ãöí ÃõæÑõÔóáöíãó

 

If Jesus knew that he would be crucified to death by the Jews and Romans at a certain hour on certain day, Jesus should not fear nor avoid the Romans and Jews since he knew that he would not be crucified to death before the time come.

Luke 4:12 Jesus answered, 'It is said: “Do not put the Lord your God to the test.â€

ÃóÑóÃøó Úóáóíúåö íóÓõæÚõ ÞóÇÆöáÇð: «ÞóÃú Þöíáó: áÇó ÊõÌóÑøöÈö ÇáÑøóÈøó Åöáåóßó

What you demand is just another way of "puting the Lord your God to the testâ€. Of course Jesus would not do this.

 

1) Why must Jesus introduced himself to Judas and a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees twice? After all Judas knew Jesus. So the verses above are illogical.

He was not "introduced" two times because they didn't recognize Him, but because they did not immediately arrest Him.

 

2) The verses of the Gospel of John above contradict the verses of Mark, Matthew and Luke:

If You prefer those, ok:

Mk 14:48 'Am I leading a rebellion,' said Jesus, 'that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? 49 Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled.'

48

æóßóáøóãóåõãú íóÓõæÚõ ÞóÇÆöáÇð: «ÃóßóãóÇ Úóáóì áöÕòø ÎóÑóÌúÊõãú ÈöÇáÓøõíõæÃö æóÇáúÚöÕöíøö áöÊóÞúÈöÖõæÇ Úóáóíøó¿ 49 ßõäúÊõ ßõáøó íóæúãò Èóíúäóßõãú ÃõÚóáøöãõ Ãöí Çáúåóíúßóáö¡ æóáóãú ÊóÞúÈöÖõæÇ Úóáóíøó. æóáóßöäøó åóÃóÇ íóÌúÑöí ÅöÊúãóÇãÇð áöáúßöÊóÇÈö»

Mt 26:50 Jesus replied, 'Friend, do what you came for.'4 Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51 With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear. 52 'Put your sword back in its place,' Jesus said to him, 'for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?'

50

ÃóÞóÇáó áóåõ íóÓõæÚõ: «íóÇÕóÇÃöÈöí¡ áöãóÇÃóÇ ÃóäúÊó åõäóÇ¿» ÃóÊóÞóÃøóãó ÇáúÌóãúÚõ æóÃóáúÞóæúÇ ÇáúÞóÈúÖó Úóáóì íóÓõæÚó. 51 æóÅöÃóÇ æóÇÃöÃñ ãöäó ÇáøóÃöíäó ßóÇäõæÇ ãóÚó íóÓõæÚó ÞóÃú ãóÃøó íóÃóåõ æóÇÓúÊóáøó ÓóíúÃóåõ¡ æóÖóÑóÈó ÚóÈúÃó ÑóÆöíÓö ÇáúßóåóäóÉö¡ ÃóÞóØóÚó ÃõÃõäóåõ. 52 ÃóÞóÇáó íóÓõæÚõ áóåõ: «ÑõÃøó ÓóíúÃóßó Åöáóì ÛöãúÃöåö! ÃóÅöäøó ÇáøóÃöíäó íóáúÌóÃõæäó Åöáóì ÇáÓøóíúÃö¡ ÈöÇáÓøóíúÃö íóåúáößõæäó! 53 Ãóãú ÊóÙõäøõ Ãóäøöí áÇó ÃóÞúÃöÑõ ÇáÂäó Ãóäú ÃóØúáõÈó Åöáóì ÃóÈöí ÃóíõÑúÓöáó áöí ÃóßúËóÑó ãöäö ÇËúäóíú ÚóÔóÑó ÌóíúÔÇð ãöäó ÇáúãóáÇóÆößóÉö

Luke 22:47 While he was still speaking a crowd came up, and the man who was called Judas, one of the Twelve, was leading them. He approached Jesus to kiss him, 48 but Jesus asked him, 'Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?' 49 When Jesus' followers saw what was going to happen, they said, 'Lord, should we strike with our swords?' 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear. 51 But Jesus answered, 'No more of this!' And he touched the man's ear and healed him. 52 Then Jesus said to the chief priests, the officers of the temple guard, and the elders, who had come for him, 'Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come with swords and clubs? 53 Every day I was with you in the temple courts, and you did not lay a hand on me. But this is your hour—when darkness reigns.'

47

æóÃöíãóÇ åõæó íóÊóßóáøóãõ¡ ÅöÃóÇ ÌóãúÚñ íóÊóÞóÃøóãõåõãõ ÇáúãóÃúÚõæøõ íóåõæÃóÇ¡ æóåõæó æóÇÃöÃñ ãöäó ÇáÇöËúäóíú ÚóÔóÑó. ÃóÊóÞóÃøóãó Åöáóì íóÓõæÚó áöíõÞóÈøöáóåõ. 48 ÃóÞóÇáó áóåõ íóÓõæÚõ: «íóÇíóåõæÃóÇ¡ ÃóÈöÞõÈúáóÉò ÊõÓóáøöãõ ÇÈúäó ÇáÅöäúÓóÇäö¿» 49 ÃóáóãøóÇ ÑóÃóì ÇáøóÃöíäó Ãóæúáóåõ ãóÇ íõæÔößõ Ãóäú íóÃúÃõËó¡ ÞóÇáõæÇ: «íóÇÑóÈøõ¡ ÃóäóÖúÑöÈõ ÈöÇáÓøóíúÃö¿» 50 æóÖóÑóÈó ÃóÃóÃõåõãú ÚóÈúÃó ÑóÆöíÓö ÇáúßóåóäóÉö ÃóÞóØóÚó ÃõÃõäóåõ Çáúíõãúäóì. 51 ÃóÃóÌóÇÈó íóÓõæÚõ ÞóÇÆöáÇð: «ÞöÃõæÇ ÚöäúÃó åóÃóÇ ÇáúÃóÃøö!» æóáóãóÓó ÃõÃõäóåõ ÃóÔóÃóÇåõ. 52 æóÞóÇáó íóÓõæÚõ áöÑõÄóÓóÇÃö ÇáúßóåóäóÉö æóÞõæøóÇÃö ÃóÑóÓö Çáúåóíúßóáö æóÇáÔøõíõæÎö¡ ÇáøóÃöíäó ÃóÞúÈóáõæÇ Úóáóíúåö: «ÃóßóãóÇ Úóáóì áöÕòø ÎóÑóÌúÊõãú ÈöÇáÓøõíõæÃö æóÇáúÚöÕöíøö¿ 53 ÚöäúÃóãóÇ ßõäúÊõ ãóÚóßõãú ßõáøó íóæúãò Ãöí Çáúåóíúßóáö¡ áóãú ÊóãõÃøõæÇ ÃóíúÃöíóßõãú Úóáóíøó. æóáßöäøó åóÃöåö ÇáÓøóÇÚóÉó áóßõãú¡ æóÇáÓøõáúØóÉõ ÇáÂäó áöáÙøóáÇóãö!»

Well, dispite all differences all four Evangelists agree that Jesus did nor fear death at this moment.

 

John 18:3-5 contradicts Mark, Matthew and Luke that state Judas identifies Jesus.

Yes this is a difference. John emphasizes what Jesus did, the other describe what Judas did.

 

This contradiction proves that Jesus was neither arrested nor crucified to death for the Gospels refute each other.

You will never find witnesses that agree on all details, unless they are false witnesses that have been instructed by someone telling them what to say. If witnesses disagree on some points, but agree on other points, they confirm each other in those points they agree.

 

Yes I know that Psalms 37:28 belongs to the OT. As a Christian, do you believe in the OT?

Yes I do. But i know what is written in the OT:

isaiah 53:3 He was despised and rejected by others, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and we held him in low esteem. 4 Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away. Yet who of his generation protested? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was punished. 9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth

3

ãõÃúÊóÞóÑñ æóãóäúÈõæÃñ ãöäó ÇáäøóÇÓö¡ ÑóÌõáõ ÂáÇóãò æóãõÎúÊóÈöÑõ ÇáúÃõÒúäö¡ ãóÎúÃõæáñ ßóãóäú ÃóÌóÈó ÇáäøóÇÓõ Úóäúåõ æõÌõæåóåõãú Ãóáóãú äóÃúÈóåú áóåõ. 4 áóßöäøóåõ Ãóãóáó ÃóÃúÒóÇäóäóÇ æóÊóÃóãøóáó ÃóæúÌóÇÚóäóÇ¡ æóäóÃúäõ ÃóÓöÈúäóÇ Ãóäøó ÇáÑøóÈøó ÞóÃú ÚóÇÞóÈóåõ æóÃóÃóáøóåõ¡ 5 ÅöáÇøó Ãóäøóåõ ßóÇäó ãóÌúÑõæÃÇð ãöäú ÃóÌúáö ÂËóÇãöäóÇ æóãóÓúÃõæÞÇð ãöäú ÃóÌúáö ãóÚóÇÕöíäóÇ¡ Ãóáøó Èöåö ÊóÃúÃöíÈõ ÓóáÇóãöäóÇ¡ æóÈöÌöÑóÇÃöåö ÈóÑöÆúäóÇ. 6 ßõáøõäóÇ ßóÛóäóãò ÔóÑóÃúäóÇ ãöáúäóÇ ßõáøõ æóÇÃöÃò Åöáóì ÓóÈöíáöåö¡ ÃóÃóËúÞóáó ÇáÑøóÈøõ ßóÇåöáóåõ ÈöÅöËúãö ÌóãöíÚöäóÇ. 7 Ùõáöãó æóÃõÃöáøó¡ æóáóßöäøóåõ áóãú íóÃúÊóÃú ÃóÇåõ¡ Èóáú ßóÔóÇÉò ÓöíÞó Åöáóì ÇáÃøóÈúÃö¡ æóßóäóÚúÌóÉò ÕóÇãöÊóÉò ÃóãóÇãó ÌóÇÒøöíåóÇ áóãú íóÃúÊóÃú ÃóÇåõ. 8 ÈöÇáÖøöíÞö æóÇáúÞóÖóÇÃö ÞõÈöÖó Úóáóíúåö¡ æóÃöí Ìöíáöåö ãóäú ßóÇäó íóÙõäøõ Ãóäøóåõ ÇÓúÊõÄúÕöáó ãöäú ÃóÑúÖö ÇáÃóÃúíóÇÃö¡ æóÖõÑöÈó ãöäú ÃóÌúáö ÅöËúãö ÔóÚúÈöí¿ 9 ÌóÚóáõæÇ ÞóÈúÑóåõ ãóÚó ÇáÃóÔúÑóÇÑö¡ æóãóÚó ËóÑöíòø ÚöäúÃó ãóæúÊöåö. ãóÚó Ãóäøóåõ áóãú íóÑúÊóßöÈú ÌóæúÑÇð¡ æóáóãú íóßõäú Ãöí Ãóãöåö ÛöÔøñ

The suffering of the Messiah are foretold in the OT, and this was part of the teaching of Jesus. AFAIK, no Jew ever claimed Psalm 37 was a prophecy to the Messiah. Things are different with Is 53 or Ps 22 ...

 

1) According to Acts 2:30, Peter claims that Jesus is the "fruit of his [David's] loins, according to the flesh." But this is denied in Matthew (1:18, 22:41-45) and Luke (1:34) where it is said that Joseph was not the father of Jesus.

I can't see a denial. Can you please show me the verse that says Mariam was no descendent of David?

BTW, there is a traditional explanation of Luke 3 that says that Eli was the father-in-law of Joseph, i.e. the father of Mariam.

 

2) According to Acts 2:32 , Jesus hath God raised up. However, John 2:19-21 refute Acts 2:32 by saying that Jesus raised himself from the dead. Therefore the Gospel and the Acts refute each so they are corrupt and unreliable.

No trinitarian will regard this as a contradiction. Indeed, this observation was one of those that confirmed the trinatarian belief of Jesus being human and divine. You are not the first one who detected this!

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Peace from our Lord,

So you admit that your Bible is incomplete and therefore misleading.

No, You gave a "closed" list of "options" and I said this list was incomplete. Why your unability to see all possibilities has to do with the "incompleteness" of the Bible, I don't know. If you knew the Bible you would have recognized the Biblical verses my "update" of your list is based upon...

 

So Jesus is a man and he is neither God nor the son of God. The Bible calls Jesus the son of man!

You don't know what is said in Daniel 7 about the son of man :sl: The "son of man" is the person who comes into heaven to the throne of God who give him His authority.

 

And you seem to misunderstand deliberately what I said. The Bible says that Jesus is human and divine, if you think this is a contradiction you don't understand the matter.

 

So we do not inherit the sins of Adam and we are not responsible for the sins of Adam.

Of course not.

 

Jesus is recorded to have said:

Well, I could tell what Mohammad is reported to have done ... I know a story that is not recorded in any hadith! :j: Should I go on in your way and ask why the Muslims reject this story######you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/style_images/1/folder_post_icons/icon14.gif[/img] :sl:

 

There were many Gospels etc that did not support the Trinity etc so they were banned by the Catholic church.

I am not Catholic, I don't care what the Catholic church banned or not. There was one Gospel: the message of Jesus who died and rose from the dead to save us. This message was preached by the Apostles, and it is contained in the four books called "The Gospel", the first part of the NT.

 

The books you mentioned were written later, this is the primary reason they were not accepted. It is just the difference between original and later fabrication.

 

Why was/is the Catholic church so afraid of the Gospels etc that it bans them?

Afraid? Muhammad banned Musailima. The verses of Musailima are alomost completely lost. Was Mohammad afraid of them when he banned them? Just think of the right answer to this and you have the answer to your question.

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It is my pleasure to refute yours and prove that you are wrong.

Well, You have to improve yourself to really refute what I say. Of course, you may continue in your way to misrepresent the Bible and so find easy "refutation".

 

My time is limited too, so it may take some time until I come too look into IF again. ...

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Hi, long time no see.

But if God transform into humans, it must be easy to physically describe him.

in principle, it is possibole to give a physical description of Jesus as He walked on earth. In practice, we have no such description.

 

But incarnation is no transformation, what I said applied to Father, Son and Spirit. Physical description of the Son does not suffice dto describe God.

 

When did electrons be come waves? Actually, electrons are very simply understood...

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetparticleadventure(contact admin if its a beneficial link)"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetparticleadventure(contact admin if its a beneficial link)[/url]

This site does not mention quantum physics (or did I overlook anything?), better look into (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Wave%E2%80%93particle_duality"]Wikipedia[/url] to see the think I was speaking about.

 

The problem is that of casual human understanding of Quantum Mechanics, not of the theory itself. Electron is not really either a wave or a particle. It's just that their behaviour can be described as one or the other under different circumstances. It is more accurate to say that it 'behaves' like a wave and particle

Well, you are right :sl:

 

Interesting, so, you have the correct arithmetic to explain trinity

At least a better one than ######, but I fear you got me: this arithmetric is not adequate enough.

 

So, if F = G, S = G, and H = G, then it follows that F = S = H, while the second part of the statement suggests that F ¹ S ¹ H (meaning, "not equal").

It is more accurate to say that God reveals Himself like F=S=G and F != S != G. (The sign you used to denote "not equal" is a raised 1 on my system, so I use another notation for that). This sort of "complementarity" (in the Bible you never see both "formulas" at the same time, unlike in trinitarian creeds) is in a broad sense comparable to the complementarities find in quantum mechanics.

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