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Paul And The Invention Of Christianity

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tHE RITUAL OF ANIMAL SACRIFICE WAS PRACTICED BY ABRAHAM first,

....actually the first animal sacrifice was by God in the Garden of Eden to clothe Adam and Eve. Then Abel carried on that practice as a "sin offering" - also Noah. So Abraham was not the first.

 

Moses was only following the ritual of the religion of Abraham and guess what??? Islam keeps the same ritual and we sacrifice as well just as Moses Jesus Abraham ect ect.. we follow the religion of Abraham

So you kill lambs, goats and bulls to voer your sins? That's news to me!

 

You see (not to be rude or anything but..) this proves how confused and misguided alot of Christians really are. If you without fear rush to try and save Paul by saying no no he didnot break any laws he followed them and how he gave you guys more insight into Jesus's teaching tell me why then majority of you Christian women do not follow this. All of a sudden Paul is too legalistic majority of you lot dont follow any of these laws so why should i believe that you would follow Jesus?

Well yes Pauls' instructions concerning men and women and what they should wear does cause some controversy among christians. I personally believe it is right to do all that he directs (wear head covering for prayer and keep silent in church etc) but also I respect the fact that Paul was trying to help the early church come together in peace, and that in our modern culture these directives are not necessary for salvation. so if i do not wear my head covering when I pray for some reason, then I won't lose my salvation.

 

If you look at it literally then Jesus was a bartender!!

No - there is no bartender on earth who can turn water into wine! lol......

 

scripture is read on 2 levels 1 is the kndergarden picture language level and the other is the deep meaning, tell me what is the purpose of Jesus turning water into to wine??? How can you apply that in your life?? You see, to those who have faith and are well grounded we can see that the true miracle is not to be taken literally. If God has chosen a man to rise up in knowledge and to bring new understanding of scripture to a people that is lost in its meanings then that is the biggest miracle to witness.

Good points, but the miracle of the water into wine was actually a "sign" (this is the Greek word which John uses in his gospel to describe this miracle) - and it was a "sign" to the Jews that Jesus was God's Annointed One. There are eight "signs" in John's gospel which were given to the Jews - and they were all unheeded by most of them except a few of His disciples.

 

Nasty, sinful,evil, wicked people misconstrude the message into meaning its ok to drink alchohol as long as you dont get drunk. WHAT???? This is the meaning you get from this this is the miracle you rejoice about, no you bring nothing but dishonour to the name of Jesus. Please tell me who benifits more from water being turned into wine literally,pious men or raging alchoholics.

Calm down TSA!!!! lol I admire your zeal, but.....it is not sinful to have a glass of wine: Jesus drank wine and in the Old Testament it is not prohibited. There is no Law of Moses which says "Thou shalt not drink alcohol". It is individual conscience.

 

This is what Islam protects it protects that nasty thinking on Jesus and promotes higher thinking into the life of Jesus. LOL Jesus the bartender.. man look at how you speak of Jesus

I have not spoken of Jesus that way - "bartender" is your word. No, I was recounting the gospel record of the event.

 

Cont. below.....

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part two.....

no no if If you take thing litarally then dont stop here continue taking thigs literally, he said eat his flesh and drink his blood. Why do you now switch up why do you now look at that as a symbolic statement??

I am not a Catholic - Catholics believe they are literally eating Christ's flesh and drinking His blood, but it is clear in communion that the bread is bread and the wine is wine: they are sybols of Christ's body and blood, they are not literally His flesh and blood. Christ told us to do it "in remembrance" of Him; therefore it is not literal, but "in remembrance". Jesus said "as often as you do this you declare my death until I come". So communion declares Christ's death till He comes again in power and great glory.

 

And if you can look at that as a symbolic statement then you should do the same for all of Jesus's signs dont pick and choose which ones your going to follow as symbolic, as for me everything Jesus said is a sign a symbolic message that has deep deep meaning.

Yes there is adeeper symbolic meaning to the water into wine, but primarily it was a sign to the Jews concerning His Messiahship.

 

even more confusing if Jesus said WHY HAS THO FORSAKEN ME!! If he knew that his mission was to die for your sins then his dying words words would not be WHY HAS THO FORSAKEN ME even to say IT IS FINISHED is denoting defeat. He should have said "THIS IS IT THIS IS FOR YOU GUYS, IM ABOUT TO DIE FOR YOUR SINS, IM READY, I DO NOT FEAR DEATH, MY MISSION IS NOW BEING FULLFILLE!" Instead hes frightened and has no idea whats going on so much so that he thinks that God has left him that God has abbandoned him and left him to die so he cries out GOD WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME!

So are you saying the man that died was an imposter, right?

 

we see christ and Muhammad together in Islam not one better than the other and Jesus said there is none great(superior) but the father who is in heaven, so you should cease from doing that

It was just that no mortal man on earth has ever lived for 2000 years or more - for God to keep Jesus alive and for Him not to see death at all then that is exceptional.

 

Secondly we believe that Jesus died

that's news to me - I thought all Muslims believed Christ did not die?

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No mortal man has ever ascended into heaven to be kept alive for two thousand years - all I am saying is if that is true, then Jesus must be very special not to see death and for God/Allah to keep Him alive all these years.

 

Again, I really don't agree with this Christian way of thinking. However, the fact that Jesus(pbuh) has ascended to Heaven doesn't make him the greastest Prophet - a special person, yes - and that's even according to the Bible. Check out Deu 34:10. The greatest Prophet for the children of israel was Moses(pbuh) in Islamic thought and also according to the Bible. Again, you are just projecting your world view onto Islamic thought. In Islamic thought, the fact that Jesus(pbuh) has been alive for a long time has caused no dilemmas or confusion in the same it has caused you.

 

The Christians in Muhammad(pbuh)'s also had these same type of arguements as you have. Their arguement for Jesus(pbuh) being the Son of God and a unique Prophet was that he was born of Mary without a human father.

 

Well I'm afraid it is true. It was foretold in the Bible that this would be so. There is true Christianity and a counterfeit Christianity.

 

Well, what is this true Christianity you are trying to portray? What is its name? As a side note, how do you believe the Scripture was preserved? I mean, after all, as far as I know, it is the Trinatarians who preserved the New Testament.

 

Another question, how do you reconcile passages such as from John which clearly reflect Trinitarism. Passages such as the Word was God, the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us?

 

You can't burn a spirit.

 

This is illogical. By this logic, a spirit cannot wail and gnash their teeth.

Edited by Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz

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ASA dear Younes please read....

no confusion on my part maybe on your part bro, that verse that you qouted from the Quran 3:50-51 is prophet Jesus making lawful things that the Jews themselves had made unlawful, The pure Torah never made things unlawful for them but they themselves had twisted Gods words and made things unlawful, not God.

 

I am afraid you are the one confused. You say the pure Torah never made things unlawful for them is plainly absurd. It certainly made things unlawful to them; take for example pig's meat. Check out verse 6:146, it speaks of additonal things which were unlawful to the Jews due to their rebellion. It is quite clear from the veres 3:50-51 that Jesus(pbuh) came to make somethings lawful for the children of israel that were previously unlawful to them.

 

And Jesus came to confirm what was in the Torah and to correct the mistakes of the previous misinterpretations and reading of the laws given to Moses.

 

Well, no doubt about that. But he didn't just come to correct the misinterpretations, he also came to abolish some laws.

 

And the Quran does the same, the Quran confirms what was in the scriptures of old Torah ,Ingeel(gospel) and its a continuation of scripture given new meanings into the thinking on God. If you understand the Quran and what Allah is saying then you will see no difference in the laws that was given to Moses and the ones that were given to Muhammad.

 

Well, first of all we cannot say which are the laws of Moses with absolute certainty. But if you think that the laws of Moses are those which are in the Bible of today, then there are plenty of laws which are not apart of Islam.

 

Take for example these laws which are in the present day Bible:

 

To put tzitzit on the corners of clothing (Num. 15:38) (CCA10). See Tzitzit and Tallit.

To bind tefillin on the head (Deut. 6:8) (CCA9). See Tefillin.

To bind tefillin on the arm (Deut. 6:8) (CCA8). See Tefillin.

To affix the mezuzah to the doorposts and gates of your house (Deut. 6:9) (CCA12). See Mezuzah.

 

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You've seen Muslims with tzitzit on the corners of their clothing or tefillin on their heads lately? Also take a look at the laws concerning Sabbatical and Jubilee years, none of them are apart of Islam since we don't have those years. We also don't keep the Sabbath. Now, you might say we have the day of congregation but that still is not the Sabbath since we are allowed to work on the day of Jumu'ah. I see plenty of differences between the Law of Moses and the Law of Muhammad.

 

Allahs laws never change His sunnah never changes, but we change, so Allah brings the human being through different levels of intellectual knowledge of knowing more about him.

 

This is plainly false. God's Laws do change. Take a look at verse 3:93. It says that all food was lawful to the Children of israel before the Torah was given which means that the laws changed. And take a look at an example during the Prophet(pbuh)'s time. At first, the Muslims prayed towards the ruins of the Temple in Jerusalem but then it got changed to the Kabah. And take a look at the laws regarding wine. At first it was allowed then it was forbidden to drink it before prayer, then it was absolutely unlawful.

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that's news to me - I thought all Muslims believed Christ did not die?

 

Yes, mainstream Islam and the majority of Muslims. I think I can scarcely err if I say, 99% believe he did not die. We believe that God caused him to sleep and raised his body.

Edited by Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz

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No mortal man has ever ascended into heaven to be kept alive for two thousand years - all I am saying is if that is true, then Jesus must be very special not to see death and for God/Allah to keep Him alive all these years.

 

Peace,

You have to remember; each and every prophet was sent down for their own individual purpose.

God considered Abraham a friend, allowed Moses to attempt to view him, and Mohammed as the seal of the prophethood.

 

They were ALL special.

 

For Jesus (Isa) Allah took him up to the heavens, and he will be sent down again when the anti-christ appears.

Allah has meantioned in the Quran that every soul shall taste death, and this is no different for Jesus.

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....actually the first animal sacrifice was by God in the Garden of Eden to clothe Adam and Eve. Then Abel carried on that practice as a "sin offering" - also Noah. So Abraham was not the first.

 

SO God made a sacrifice to Adam and Eve hmmm interesting, now youve placed Adam and Eve above and God is their servant.

 

 

So you kill lambs, goats and bulls to voer your sins? That's news to me!

 

who said any thing about sins we do it to stick to the ritual of Abraham which you do not follow.

 

Well yes Pauls' instructions concerning men and women and what they should wear does cause some controversy among christians. I personally believe it is right to do all that he directs (wear head covering for prayer and keep silent in church etc) but also I respect the fact that Paul was trying to help the early church come together in peace, and that in our modern culture these directives are not necessary for salvation. so if i do not wear my head covering when I pray for some reason, then I won't lose my salvation.

 

You see you guys are a very rebelious people, you say that you respect what Paul was trying to do but.... you dont need to practice covering your hair, funny because ive always seen Mary dipicted with her head covered. Paul didnt follow all of Jesus's teaching then why should you follow Pauls, i understand your disobedence Paul disobeyed and now you disobey Paul, and now you figure that because your in modern times that the laws nolonger apply, strange bunch you follow. Jesus was never ever like this.

 

Good points, but the miracle of the water into wine was actually a "sign" (this is the Greek word which John uses in his gospel to describe this miracle) - and it was a "sign" to the Jews that Jesus was God's Annointed One. There are eight "signs" in John's gospel which were given to the Jews - and they were all unheeded by most of them except a few of His disciples.

 

thats right a sign, and from what you say the sign is Now we can drink alchohol, i see youve avoided my questions on Jesus making something that attributes to abuse and molestation and murder but yet he he came to die for those sins at the same time he makes something which will lead people to sin.

 

 

Calm down TSA!!!! lol I admire your zeal, but.....it is not sinful to have a glass of wine: Jesus drank wine and in the Old Testament it is not prohibited. There is no Law of Moses which says "Thou shalt not drink alcohol". It is individual conscience.

 

 

the wine you speak of is fermented grapes the wine Jesus speaks of is Juice not strong drink which is what wine is it is stronger than juice and Jesus never drank alchohol look at this..

 

Luke 1:15

For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Great in the sight of the Lord and SHALL DRINK NEITHER WINE NOR STRONG DRINK.. still think Jesus drank alchohol?? do you drink wine or strong drinks?? you wont be calle great!!

 

read on..

ROmans 14 21It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

 

well well alchohol sure makes people stumbleth, and its smell is offensive to us who dont drink and its a known fact that alchohol makes you weak

and you say Jesus made this huh??lol

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

part two.....

 

I am not a Catholic - Catholics believe they are literally eating Christ's flesh and drinking His blood, but it is clear in communion that the bread is bread and the wine is wine: they are sybols of Christ's body and blood, they are not literally His flesh and blood. Christ told us to do it "in remembrance" of Him; therefore it is not literal, but "in remembrance". Jesus said "as often as you do this you declare my death until I come". So communion declares Christ's death till He comes again in power and great glory.

 

well then they are practicing cannibal rituals plain and simple because they missunderstood him.

 

 

Yes there is adeeper symbolic meaning to the water into wine, but primarily it was a sign to the Jews concerning His Messiahship.

 

and its the deeper symbolic symbol that you should study not the literal kindergarden meaning

 

 

So are you saying the man that died was an imposter, right?

 

You use your rational mind set and use different analogies, thats llike me saying that my father knows that i want 1000 dollars for my birthday and hes going to give it to me but when my birthday comes he says what your not even my son! lol! If Jesus as you say, knew he was to die for your sins then his dying words say differently they show that he had no idea that this is what was supposed to happen. In fact he turned coward and lost faith in his so called mission and cried out GOD WHY HAS THO FORSAKEN ME, and his so called pious disciples what did they do did they stand by his side did they witness the crucifiction ?? no they did not

 

Mark 14:50

And they all forsook him, and fled

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dear Heart for Muslims,

 

1. The Orthodox Jews make a distinction between Jewish and Noahide Laws. Jewish Laws are required for the Jews/children of israel to follow, but according to Judaism, gentiles are not even allowed to participate.

 

Noahide Laws are the Laws that mankind has to follow.

 

According to the Orthodox Jews, Jews have to follow Jewish and Noahide Laws, but the non-Jews just need to follow the Noahide Law Code.

 

 

2. We should make a distinction between secular laws and Divine Laws (Sharee'ah).

 

3. The Offering Laws of the Torah were laws for the Jews only. Check the bible. You will find that the foreigners were not obligated to follow the laws and certain celebrations. The Sabbath is part of the Jewish Laws and the foreigners were not obligated to observe Sabbat.

 

4. God Almighty decides who to give life and whom and when someone dies. Long or short life is not a sign that a person is preferred.

 

Remember, that Lucifer before he became Satan was a righteous jinnkind who followed the commandments of God Almighty. At one point of his life, he was so righteous that God Almighty elevated him to a very high status among the angels. He was a jinn who lived among the angels. This means that is we follow the commandments then God may elevate us to a status that is higher than the angels or equal. However, in this position he developed arrogance in his heart which led him to the low status that he is now. He became Satan because of arrogance. Because of arrogance he disliked the Creation of Adam. Because of arrogance he tempted Adam and Eve to commit their sin which cause all of us to be driven out of Paradise. Because of arrogance he deceives many human beings.

 

he will be the last who will die in this world. Does this favour mean that Satan is special? No!

 

Although, God gives him a lot of favour it does not help him in the afterlife, because this does not save him from the punishment in hellfire.

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I am afraid you are the one confused. You say the pure Torah never made things unlawful for them is plainly absurd. It certainly made things unlawful to them; take for example pig's meat. Check out verse 6:146, it speaks of additonal things which were unlawful to the Jews due to their rebellion. It is quite clear from the veres 3:50-51 that Jesus(pbuh) came to make somethings lawful for the children of israel that were previously unlawful to them.

 

 

brother read and stop trying to be argumentive your point is a valid one but its directed at a conversation thats not happening between me and you. Listen (i thought that what i said was self explanatory) ok, the Quran says concerning the Jews how they changed the laws with their own hands, how they themselves made things lawful for them unlawful.

Its clear that the laws given to Moses made things like killing and fornication ect ect.. unlawful but come on.. you know thats not what im talking about . Allah says that he never made the things which they thenselves made unlawful, unlawful. Thats why Jesus came to correct that thinking and to show hope in the next one to come after him.

 

 

Well, no doubt about that. But he didn't just come to correct the misinterpretations, he also came to abolish some laws.

 

Yes he did come to abolish some laws but guess what, they were not Allahs laws they were the laws that the mis guided scholars of the torah were following and the mis reading of scripture, and the false laws that they themselves set up. But no prophet never at any time changed Gods laws or abolished Gods laws, they came to abolish the falseness that men set up and to bring the true message of God and put it back in its right context.

 

Well, first of all we cannot say which are the laws of Moses with absolute certainty. But if you think that the laws of Moses are those which are in the Bible of today, then there are plenty of laws which are not apart of Islam.

 

 

Why would i a Muslim Believe that the laws given to moses are the same laws which are given in the Bible today, When the Bible has been messed with, rewritten, words changed ect.ect. Like i said before , the Quran CONFIRMS WHAT IS IN THE BIBLE AND ITS ALSO A CONTINUATION OF SCRIPTURE. But the Quran is unadultrated and has been in its pure form since its revealation.Now certain laws that were given to Moses for the Jews are laws that Allah reconpensed them for their rebellion if this is what your trying to say then i have misunderstood you and yes you are correct. But never did Muhammad(pbuh) abolish any of Allahs laws he only said and lived what was revealed to him.

 

 

You've seen Muslims with tzitzit on the corners of their clothing or tefillin on their heads lately? Also take a look at the laws concerning Sabbatical and Jubilee years, none of them are apart of Islam since we don't have those years. We also don't keep the Sabbath. Now, you might say we have the day of congregation but that still is not the Sabbath since we are allowed to work on the day of Jumu'ah. I see plenty of differences between the Law of Moses and the Law of Muhammad.This is plainly false. God's Laws do change. Take a look at verse 3:93. It says that all food was lawful to the Children of israel before the Torah was given which means that the laws changed. And take a look at an example during the Prophet(pbuh)'s time. At first, the Muslims prayed towards the ruins of the Temple in Jerusalem but then it got changed to the Kabah. And take a look at the laws regarding wine. At first it was allowed then it was forbidden to drink it before prayer, then it was absolutely unlawful.

 

All of this is unnessasary i will how ever point out to you again that there is no law of Moses or law of Muhammad the law is Allahs, which was given to our great prophets to bring to us.Scince youve missed the analogy about Muhammads night journey, ill remind you of a hadith that you already most likely know, when the Prophet Muhammad said that he sees all of the other prophets as a house of bricks and in the house there is one brick missing and he said i am that brick. So what is this saying ? its saying that Muhammad is equal and he complets the message and that the laws given to the prophets make one house. I will stop here.

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Yes, mainstream Islam and the majority of Muslims. I think I can scarcely err if I say, 99% believe he did not die. We believe that God caused him to sleep and raised his body.

 

 

99% uhh no! that is not the belief. So muslims believe that Allah took a physical body and raised him up to Himself??? No brother you are misreading the Quran, dont get angry think about it if your interpretation is correct then you are saying that Allah is up meaning you have just contained Allah, you have put Him in a place. Allah is not in no place if Allah is up the why when we make salaat our behinds or our anus's are facing up??? Big shirk in what you say. And as far as death Allah says that every soul shall taste death, and he also says to not think of those that died on His path as dead no the live, so we even believe that ALL OF THE PROPHETS ARE ALIVE AND WELL HOWEVER THEIR PHYSICAL BODIES ARE GONE BUT THEIR SOUL LIVES ON But if you believe that Allah took a physical body out of this earth(and we all know what happens once you reach space without a space suit or a space shuttle) then you are saying that Allah broke the Laws that he set up for the earth and our bodies. Where as Allah says that his laws never change

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99% uhh no! that is not the belief. So muslims believe that Allah took a physical body and raised him up to Himself??? No brother you are misreading the Quran, dont get angry think about it if your interpretation is correct then you are saying that Allah is up meaning you have just contained Allah, you have put Him in a place. Allah is not in no place if Allah is up the why when we make salaat our behinds or our anus's are facing up??? Big shirk in what you say. And as far as death Allah says that every soul shall taste death, and he also says to not think of those that died on His path as dead no the live, so we even believe that ALL OF THE PROPHETS ARE ALIVE AND WELL HOWEVER THEIR PHYSICAL BODIES ARE GONE BUT THEIR SOUL LIVES ON But if you believe that Allah took a physical body out of this earth(and we all know what happens once you reach space without a space suit or a space shuttle) then you are saying that Allah broke the Laws that he set up for the earth and our bodies. Where as Allah says that his laws never change

 

I am afraid it is the mainstream belief. The mainstream belief is that Jesus(pbuh) was caused by God to fall asleep and then he ascended to the heavens. And that he will return back to kill the deceiving Messiah, rule and die. And your arguement about space, space suits and space shuttles is absolute nonsense. Number one, Muhammad(pbuh) ascended to the heavens during his Night Journey which you have mentioned in this thread without a space suit or a shuttle. Number two, please look at all the miracles descibed in the Qur'an. Do you think wooden staffs turn into snakes naturally, or that a hand can become completly white just by putting it into your armpit, or that fire doesn't burn? By the way, I didn't say that God is contained somewhere. It seems to me that you are using here what you would call "kinder-garden logic" and projecting it on me.

Edited by Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz

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I will say one thing twoswordali regarding Laws. First, when I say the Law of Moses or Muhammad, I mean the Laws given to them by God. Now, I will tell you that according to Islamic belief Moses, Jesus and Muhammad(pbut) had different set of Laws given to them by God. And when I say Jesus(pbuh) and Muhammad(pbuh) came to abolish Laws of God, I mean that they did so by the command of God, meaning God Himself abrogated His own Laws. Take a look at the Sabbath, it was in the Law of Moses, however, it is not in the Law of Muhammad. And God does abrogate His Laws. This is certain, you only have to study the Qur'an to see that this is the case.

Edited by Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz

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I’m guessing you are a Jehovah’s Witness my dear,

No I'm not a JW.

 

A growing number of Christians are re-examining their beliefs concerning this important issue. Just google "Conditional Immortality" and you will see there are many (besides JWs).

 

Who told you Hell is not real?

The Scriptures.

 

Also God's character bears witness to the fact that there are no eternal torments in fire. It would be disproportionate of God to inflict eternal torment on mortal man whose life is but a vapour.

 

Some examples of Scriptures (just a few, there are many more):

 

"In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen 2:17)

 

"For dust thou are, and unto dust shalt thou return" (Gen 3:19)

 

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezek 18:20)

 

"For in death there is no remembrance of Thee" (Psalm 6:5)

 

"The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence" (Psalm 115:17

 

"For he knoweth our frame, He remembreth that we are dust" (Psalm 103:5)

 

"Now that the dead are raised, even Moses showed" Luke 20

 

"No man hath ascended up to heaven" (John 3:13)

 

"This is the Father's will....that I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" John 6

 

"Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness and ARE DEAD" John 6:44

 

"Our friend Lazarus sleepeth....howbeit Jesus spake of his death" John 11:11

 

"David is not asended into the heaven" Acts 2:34

 

"he preached unto them Jesus, and THE RESURRECTION" Acts 17:15

 

"For since by man came DEATH, by man came also the RESURRECTION of the dead" 1 Cor 15

 

"But I would not have you ignroant concerning THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP" 1 tHESS 4

 

"For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised...then they also which ARE FALLEN ASLEEP in Christ are perished" 1 Cor 15

 

 

.....there are many many more. You have to hold these Scriptures in tension with those that seem to suggestion immortality of the soul - particularly the Hellenistic beliefs of the Pharisees.

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dear Heart for Muslims,

 

1. The Orthodox Jews make a distinction between Jewish and Noahide Laws. Jewish Laws are required for the Jews/children of israel to follow, but according to Judaism, gentiles are not even allowed to participate.

 

Noahide Laws are the Laws that mankind has to follow.

 

According to the Orthodox Jews, Jews have to follow Jewish and Noahide Laws, but the non-Jews just need to follow the Noahide Law Code.

2. We should make a distinction between secular laws and Divine Laws (Sharee'ah).

 

3. The Offering Laws of the Torah were laws for the Jews only. Check the bible. You will find that the foreigners were not obligated to follow the laws and certain celebrations. The Sabbath is part of the Jewish Laws and the foreigners were not obligated to observe Sabbat.

Thank you dear Habaa - I couldn't agree more. Gentiles are not required to keep the Mosaic Law - though for those who love the Lord and seek to lead holy lives, some of the principles might overlap.

 

4. God Almighty decides who to give life and whom and when someone dies. Long or short life is not a sign that a person is preferred.

Yes I know - I am referring to what happens after death. the Bible clearly teaches, as you say, that it is God who decides who whall be resurrection to eternal life. Immortality is *conditional* - we do not posses "immortal souls".

 

Remember, that Lucifer before he became Satan was a righteous jinnkind who followed the commandments of God Almighty. At one point of his life, he was so righteous that God Almighty elevated him to a very high status among the angels. He was a jinn who lived among the angels. This means that is we follow the commandments then God may elevate us to a status that is higher than the angels or equal. However, in this position he developed arrogance in his heart which led him to the low status that he is now. He became Satan because of arrogance. Because of arrogance he disliked the Creation of Adam. Because of arrogance he tempted Adam and Eve to commit their sin which cause all of us to be driven out of Paradise. Because of arrogance he deceives many human beings.

 

he will be the last who will die in this world. Does this favour mean that Satan is special? No!

 

Although, God gives him a lot of favour it does not help him in the afterlife, because this does not save him from the punishment in hellfire.

I do not believe Satan is a fallen angel. Satan just means "adversary". There are many "satans" in Scripture - some are angels, but others are men, some are governments, and at one point God provoking David to number israel is referred to as a "satan".

 

Why do Muslims believe Satan is a fallen angel? Where do you get that from? I am very interested in this as a lot of Christians also believe it, but it is nowhere to be found in Scripture.

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I have some more replies to make but have to get the dinner! I will like to continue very interesting discussions with you all soon. Thank you all for your replies and input. Salaam.

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Why do Muslims believe Satan is a fallen angel? Where do you get that from? I am very interested in this as a lot of Christians also believe it, but it is nowhere to be found in Scripture.

 

Muslims don't believe him Satan to be a fallen Angel, either. We believe that he is a Jinn, as Habaa said. Jinn are a distinct species from humans and Angels. They have free will just like humans, as in that they can choose to obey or disobey God, and unlike Angels who cannot disobey God. This means they can be believers, disbelievers, good, bad etc. Jinn are the type of creatures that Jesus(pbuh) according to the New Testament excorcises out of possessed people. The bad Jinn among the Jinn are satans and there is one main Satan whose name is Iblis; humans can be satans as well as you pointed out but in common speech "satan" refers to an evil Jinn or the main one. It is the main one that has been granted a life that will last until the last Hour as I told you in the previous post.

Edited by Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz

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I am afraid it is the mainstream belief. The mainstream belief is that Jesus(pbuh) was caused by God to fall asleep and then he ascended to the heavens. And that he will return back to kill the deceiving Messiah, rule and die

 

oh yes he's also going to kill the swine, so Jesus is gonig to kill Allahs creatures for what?? what did the pig ever do wrong to deserve annialation at the hands of Jesus?? If you believe that Jesus return is going to be a physical one then tell me how is he going to succeed in killing off all of the swine?? Thats alot of pigs to be killing off. and then he's going to break the cross do you know how many crosses there are in the world for him to break?? literal meanings throw everthing off in some cases

 

 

And your arguement about space, space suits and space shuttles is absolute nonsense. Number one, Muhammad(pbuh) ascended to the heavens during his Night Journey which you have mentioned in this thread without a space suit or a shuttle. Number two, please look at all the miracles descibed in the Qur'an. Do you think wooden staffs turn into snakes naturally, or that a hand can become completly white just by putting it into your armpit, or that fire doesn't burn? By the way, I didn't say that God is contained somewhere. It seems to me that you are using here what you would call "kinder-garden logic" and projecting it on me.

 

so the prophets night journey was a physical one huh, so the prophet flew like superman huh?? No this is the kindergarden understanding so i suppose next your going to say that Muhammad shook hands with the physical prophets?? Adam was in his physical to body huh? so was Moses?? oh and also he Met Jesus so was Jesus in his physical form as well, and how come only Moses had more to say than Jesus how come Jesus did not relate to Muhammad to tell the believers to look out for his return??

And you are following the kindergarden logic if you believe that Jesus went ino outer space and that Allah is up, and if you take those miracles in the Quran as literal. If you believe that a wooden staff turning into a snake is the full meaning or that thats what the miracle is then yes you are fowling the kindergarden logic.

 

 

 

 

I will say one thing twoswordali regarding Laws. First, when I say the Law of Moses or Muhammad, I mean the Laws given to them by God.

 

Then they are Gods laws plain and simple, we follow and obey Muhammad because he follows Gods laws, so it is not the law of Moses or the law of Muhammad it is the law of Gods so you really should stop saying that

 

Now, I will tell you that according to Islamic belief Moses, Jesus and Muhammad(pbut) had different set of Laws given to them by God. And when I say Jesus(pbuh) and Muhammad(pbuh) came to abolish Laws of God, I mean that they did so by the command of God, meaning God Himself abrogated His own Laws. Take a look at the Sabbath, it was in the Law of Moses, however, it is not in the Law of Muhammad. And God does abrogate His Laws. This is certain, you only have to study the Qur'an to see that this is the case.

 

 

so now Allah abrogates His own laws??? What you are saying now is that what Allah sent forth before he made a mistake and had to correct Himself. Allah is greater than what you attribute to Him! So the all mighty the all powerful the most knowledgeable sent down laws and made a huge mistake so much so He had to abrogate His laws no no wait.. He had His prophets do it for him. You are so far off brother your very far off. People change the laws and Allah has mercy on them so he sends Muhammad as a mercy to all the worlds with a message that would not be messed with or destroyed. The laws that was given to the rebellious Jews was never abrogated it stayed that way for them however with the continuation of scripture Allah sends a book that confirms that of old and gives new insight into becoming a better human being. But Allah does not abrogate his laws neither does his prophets do it for Him. If you study the Quran and you believe that Allah abrogates or nullyfies His own laws then you go right ahead and keep believing that and may you be at peace with that.

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oh yes he's also going to kill the swine, so Jesus is gonig to kill Allahs creatures for what?? what did the pig ever do wrong to deserve annialation at the hands of Jesus?? If you believe that Jesus return is going to be a physical one then tell me how is he going to succeed in killing off all of the swine?? Thats alot of pigs to be killing off. and then he's going to break the cross do you know how many crosses there are in the world for him to break?? literal meanings throw everthing off in some cases

 

Like I said, it is the mainstream belief. Jesus(pbuh) will return, in body and soul, and he will abolish Jizyah, kill the pigs and break the Cross. How will succeed in killing off all the swine? Frankly, I don't know. And as for the Cross, it is more of a symbolic thing rather than all the crosses, though that is very possible that all the crosses will be broken.

 

so the prophets night journey was a physical one huh, so the prophet flew like superman huh?? No this is the kindergarden understanding so i suppose next your going to say that Muhammad shook hands with the physical prophets?? Adam was in his physical to body huh? so was Moses?? oh and also he Met Jesus so was Jesus in his physical form as well, and how come only Moses had more to say than Jesus how come Jesus did not relate to Muhammad to tell the believers to look out for his return??

 

The mainstream Islamic belief is that the Journey was in body, too. And no, he did not fly like Superman, he flew on Buraq, a special kind of creature - though he verily well could have flown like Superman if God had wanted him to.

 

And you are following the kindergarden logic if you believe that Jesus went ino outer space and that Allah is up, and if you take those miracles in the Quran as literal. If you believe that a wooden staff turning into a snake is the full meaning or that thats what the miracle is then yes you are fowling the kindergarden logic.

 

I didn't say Jesus(pbuh) is in outer space. Stop putting words into my mouth. He is where he is - God knows best where he is - and he will return. The miracles in the Qur'an are quite literal. If you deny that Moses(pbuh)'s staff literally turned into a snake, his hand became white, the sea was split for the children of israel to escape, fire turned cool for Abraham(pbuh), Jesus(pbuh) cured the blind (not religiously blind) and the leper, he created a bird out of clay, breathed into it and it turned into a real bird among many others, then you are disbeliever.

 

Then they are Gods laws plain and simple, we follow and obey Muhammad because he follows Gods laws, so it is not the law of Moses or the law of Muhammad it is the law of Gods so you really should stop saying that

 

People in the past, in the presence of the Prophet(pbuh), said Law of Moses. Furthermore, God in the Qur'an says Book of Moses although the Book of Moses is God's Book. There is nothing wrong with the expression.

 

 

so now Allah abrogates His own laws??? What you are saying now is that what Allah sent forth before he made a mistake and had to correct Himself. Allah is greater than what you attribute to Him! So the all mighty the all powerful the most knowledgeable sent down laws and made a huge mistake so much so He had to abrogate His laws no no wait.. He had His prophets do it for him. You are so far off brother your very far off. People change the laws and Allah has mercy on them so he sends Muhammad as a mercy to all the worlds with a message that would not be messed with or destroyed. The laws that was given to the rebellious Jews was never abrogated it stayed that way for them however with the continuation of scripture Allah sends a book that confirms that of old and gives new insight into becoming a better human being. But Allah does not abrogate his laws neither does his prophets do it for Him. If you study the Quran and you believe that Allah abrogates or nullyfies His own laws then you go right ahead and keep believing that and may you be at peace with that.

 

God abrogates His laws. Not because He made a mistake - stop putting words into my mouth.

 

It is pretty obvious God changes His own Laws.

 

This following Ayah (verse, Sign) was revealed about abrogation:

 

All food was lawful to the Children of israel, except what israel Made unlawful for itself, before the Law (of Moses) was revealed. Say: "Bring ye the Law and study it, if ye be men of truth." (3:93)

 

Now, I am going to explain this in very simple steps. 1) All food was lawful to the children of israel expect that which israel (Jacob) had forbidden to himself 2) After the Torah was revealed, more foods became unlawful to them. What does this mean? God changed the Law.

 

Furthermore, God commanded the Muslims at first to pray towards Jerusalem, then He commanded them to pray towards Mecca. What does this mean? It means God changed His Law.

 

The fools among the people will say: "What hath turned them from the Qibla to which they were used?" Say: To Allah belong both east and West: He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight. (2:142)

 

The reason why the Qibla (direction of prayer) was changed is this according to God:

 

We appointed the Qibla to which thou wast used, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (From the Faith). Indeed it was (A change) momentous, except to those guided by Allah. (2:143)

 

Furthermore, the people at Muhammad(pbuh)'s time asked what would happen to their prayers which were done facing Jerusalem, God answered in the following manner:

 

And never would Allah Make your faith of no effect. (2:143)

 

I will show you more proof regarding a matter which has been discussed in this topic - wine. At first, it wasn't forbidden. Its usage was discouraged at first, then it was forbidden to approach prayer in a drunken state, then it was completly forbidden.

 

Want more?

 

At first, the punishment for Zinah (which means unlawful sexual intercourse) for a woman was confiment into her house until death.

 

If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way. (4:15)

 

Notice, how it says that or God will ordain for them some way. Well, He ordained another way. The new and current punishment for Zinah is flogging or stoning, depending on whether the person is married and free, for both women and men.

 

On top of this, God says in the Qur'an that He abrogates certain things:

 

None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things? (2:106)

 

When you say that God doesn't abrogate His laws then you go against the Qur'an itself and the Sunnah.

 

PS: I pray tell, what does the turning of the staff into a snake really mean. What is the real miracle, according to you that is?

Edited by Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz

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Like I said, it is the mainstream belief. Jesus(pbuh) will return, in body and soul, and he will abolish Jizyah, kill the pigs and break the Cross. How will succeed in killing off all the swine? Frankly, I don't know. And as for the Cross, it is more of a symbolic thing rather than all the crosses,

 

 

And brother this is all im trying to convey to you, that it is the kindergarden way of learning this religion if we take these meanings to be literal. Allah says those who have a disease in their hearts stick to the alagorical meanings. If we take the picture language and take it as being REAL then we have a sickness in our hearts. The Christians do the same thing, just look at the conversation with this Christian sister, she really believes that Jesus made wine and drank it , ALCHOHOL!!????? Yes its very possible because Allah can do anything , however Allah says those who have a sickness in their hearts stick to the picture language meaning that they take the picture language as real and forget about the basic meaning of what Allah is relating to us.

 

The mainstream Islamic belief is that the Journey was in body, too. And no, he did not fly like Superman, he flew on Buraq, a special kind of creature - though he verily well could have flown like Superman if God had wanted him to.

 

Yes and this is a spritual journey not a physical one like i said the kindergarden or the alagorical way of looking at the story is going so far into the picture language that you miss the meaning of what is being conveyed in journey. All we walk away from the story of the journey is he went on some animal with an angel and he met the Prophets and Allah, and thats it. How can we appy this story to our lives, if the Prophet is an example for us then even in this journey we should be able to appy it in our lives and not just reffer to it as a journey without getting the message. Now if someone cannot get the message and all they wish to do is stick to the picture language then Allah says, not little ol me, Allah says that they have a disease in their hearts

 

 

I didn't say Jesus(pbuh) is in outer space. Stop putting words into my mouth. He is where he is - God knows best where he is - and he will return.

 

you said that God raised him up to the heavens when we look up thats the heavens however you did not say space im sorry did not mean to put words in your mouth

 

The miracles in the Qur'an are quite literal. If you deny that Moses(pbuh)'s staff literally turned into a snake, his hand became white, the sea was split for the children of israel to escape, fire turned cool for Abraham(pbuh), Jesus(pbuh) cured the blind (not religiously blind) and the leper, he created a bird out of clay, breathed into it and it turned into a real bird among many others, then you are disbeliever.

 

 

And I would agree with you fully if you deny that then yes you are a disbeliver, now Allah says that those who have a sickness in their hearts stick to the picture language instead of getting the plain basic message. To the kindergarden way of thinking, to heal the blind, means to literally heal someone who is blind and that is the picture language, and that is considered a big miracle to those of low level thinking in religion. Now to get a message out of what is said is the much deeper meaning, to have a man who is blessed with a wealth of knowledge and is able to take a man who cannot understand nothing when concerning the scripture.

 

And then for that man to be taught by the blessed on and then the man becomes elavated in his thinking and he then starts to grasp the concepts and understanding of God so much that he then becomes a teacher teaching others on God is a huge miracle, thats taken someone who was blind and making them see. Is this not what the Quran does and life example of our Prophet?? People who were once blind in religion or orphaned in knowledge on God find their sight and a home in the religion of Islam?? This is the Miracle that can help others and theres other meanings as well however if we just follow the picture language then Like Allah says we have a sickness in our hearts

 

 

People in the past, in the presence of the Prophet(pbuh), said Law of Moses. Furthermore, God in the Qur'an says Book of Moses although the Book of Moses is God's Book. There is nothing wrong with the expression.

God abrogates His laws. Not because He made a mistake - stop putting words into my mouth.

 

Plese show me where in the Quran where it says the book of Moses, as far as i understand (and i could be wrong) the laws is Allahs and he gave them to the Prophets to give to us, and whenever i read in the Quran its always the laws that Allah gave to them or the book that He gave to them. Plese show me where the Quran says book of Moses, because that would mean that Moses is the posseser of the laws. And even the Quran is not Muhammads laws it is Gods laws and all of the prophets dont speak without God

 

 

It is pretty obvious God changes His own Laws

 

 

 

On top of this, God says in the Qur'an that He abrogates certain things:

 

None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things? (2:106) When you say that God doesn't abrogate His laws then you go against the Qur'an itself and the Sunnah

 

 

Ok first dealing with the english translation, God is saying none of his revalations does He abrogate, so who abrogates them??? Now as far as the arabic brother ill leave you with that to study and if you still come to the same conclusion then AllhumduAllah. Heres a hint.. Allah is talking about a state of evolution in the thinking on him if He was to abrogate or nullify verses then they would not have made it in the Quran

 

.

 

PS: I pray tell, what does the turning of the staff into a snake really mean. What is the real miracle, according to you that is?

no problem bro if you really wish to discuss this then we can but if your only objective is to argue like an ignorant donkey then forget it but if you wish to dialoge on this let me know

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And brother this is all im trying to convey to you, that it is the kindergarden way of learning this religion if we take these meanings to be literal. Allah says those who have a disease in their hearts stick to the alagorical meanings. If we take the picture language and take it as being REAL then we have a sickness in our hearts. The Christians do the same thing, just look at the conversation with this Christian sister, she really believes that Jesus made wine and drank it , ALCHOHOL!!????? Yes its very possible because Allah can do anything , however Allah says those who have a sickness in their hearts stick to the picture language meaning that they take the picture language as real and forget about the basic meaning of what Allah is relating to us.

 

Well, I still believe that Jesus(pbuh) is going to kill the pigs literally. And I take those things very literally. And I also believe that Jesus(pbuh) will break the Cross literally, but not necessarily all the crosses.

 

Well, the Christian is right. If it says in the Bible that Jesus turned water into wine, then it is quite literal. When it says in the Bible Jesus(pbuh) multiplied bread and walked on waters, it is to be taken quite literally. There is no indication that it should not. Not that I believe nor do I deny that he did turn water into wine. Since It cannot be confirmed by Islamic knowledge, therefore, I don't really think about it.

 

Yes and this is a spritual journey not a physical one like i said the kindergarden or the alagorical way of looking at the story is going so far into the picture language that you miss the meaning of what is being conveyed in journey. All we walk away from the story of the journey is he went on some animal with an angel and he met the Prophets and Allah, and thats it. How can we appy this story to our lives, if the Prophet is an example for us then even in this journey we should be able to appy it in our lives and not just reffer to it as a journey without getting the message. Now if someone cannot get the message and all they wish to do is stick to the picture language then Allah says, not little ol me, Allah says that they have a disease in their hearts

 

According to mainstream Islam, it is a spiritual AND physical journey. Obviously there are lessons to be learned from it but it still happened both in body and soul.

 

 

And I would agree with you fully if you deny that then yes you are a disbeliver, now Allah says that those who have a sickness in their hearts stick to the picture language instead of getting the plain basic message. To the kindergarden way of thinking, to heal the blind, means to literally heal someone who is blind and that is the picture language, and that is considered a big miracle to those of low level thinking in religion. Now to get a message out of what is said is the much deeper meaning, to have a man who is blessed with a wealth of knowledge and is able to take a man who cannot understand nothing when concerning the scripture.

 

I don't know what you mean by fully denying but if you deny that Jesus(pbuh) literally healed a person's eyesight who was physically blind, then you are a disbeliever, or any of the other miraculous things done by other Prophets(pbut). According to mainstream Islam, Jesus(pbuh) quite literally healed a man who was physically blind and did many other miraculous things quite literally.

 

Plese show me where in the Quran where it says the book of Moses, as far as i understand (and i could be wrong) the laws is Allahs and he gave them to the Prophets to give to us, and whenever i read in the Quran its always the laws that Allah gave to them or the book that He gave to them. Plese show me where the Quran says book of Moses, because that would mean that Moses is the posseser of the laws. And even the Quran is not Muhammads laws it is Gods laws and all of the prophets dont speak without God

 

Well, here's a couple of instances where it is used.

 

Or is he not informed with what is in the Scriptures of Musa. (53:36)

 

in the former Scriptures, the Scriptures of Ibrahim and Musa (last verse of Surah 87)

 

 

Ok first dealing with the english translation, God is saying none of his revalations does He abrogate, so who abrogates them??? Now as far as the arabic brother ill leave you with that to study and if you still come to the same conclusion then AllhumduAllah. Heres a hint.. Allah is talking about a state of evolution in the thinking on him if He was to abrogate or nullify verses then they would not have made it in the Quran

 

Well, obviously you didn't read the translation carefully. It says, None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar. Do you understand what that means in English from a grammatical stand point? It does not deny the concept of abrogation, quite to the contrary, it affirms it.

 

By the way, you addressed none of my examples regarding abrogated commands.

 

And I will add that it is the mainstream belief that God does abrogate some of His laws.

 

no problem bro if you really wish to discuss this then we can but if your only objective is to argue like an ignorant donkey then forget it but if you wish to dialoge on this let me know

 

I don't argue with you whimsically, that's why I dislike expressions such as "like an ignorant donkey". The reason why I respond and deny some of the things you say is because you are wrong about some things and or you are not quite clear about some of the things you say. But do tell. Do you think that the the staff was literally turned into a snake, or is figurative, or is it both? If it is only figurative, then you are disbeliever. If it is both literal and figurative, I would like to hear your opinion since I have never heard a person - neither Jew, Christian or Muslim - say that there is something figurative behind the staff's transformation. I have heard about Muslims speaking of the Night Journey from a figurative perspecitve, though they don't deny that it was physical, but never about Moses(pbuh)' serpent.

 

PS: Twoswordali you should be more clear in your arguements, especially with Christians. For example, you and Heart for Muslims were speaking about the laws of Moses and you say that we keep them. You should've told her that we don't believe the current Bible to be authentic nor do we follow the Law given to Moses but the Law given to Muhammad(pbuh). So you have to define some concepts before you actually start talking. To her the Law of Moses means the book which is presently known as the Pentateuch but to a Muslim it means the orginal Law given to Moses(pbuh) which hasn't been authentically transmitted. Also you should explain to her that the Law of Moses is no longer valid, the current and final Law is the Law of Muhammad which is for the whole mankind.

Edited by Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz

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Well, what is this true Christianity you are trying to portray? What is its name?

It doesn't have a name particularly - Jesus said that the "wheat and tares" would grow together, so the true church and the false church are often mixed together like they were in the churches of the book of Revelation.

 

As a side note, how do you believe the Scripture was preserved? I mean, after all, as far as I know, it is the Trinatarians who preserved the New Testament.

Trinitarianism only came in with a man called Tertullian. you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Tertullian

 

The Trinity was a concept which was unknown to Paul and the early church (which was mainly Jewish) as they were monotheists. The word Trinity is nowhere to be found in the New Testament.

 

Tertullian was an anti-Semite and wrote a book against the Jews - he hated them. That is why he introduced the trinity doctrine because he knew it would divorce Christianity from it's Jewish roots. Constantine did the same and introduced a lot of pagan lies into Christianity.

 

Another question, how do you reconcile passages such as from John which clearly reflect Trinitarism. Passages such as the Word was God, the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us?

How is that verse trinitarian? It is only trinitarian if you read it with trinitarian glasses on. Take them off, and it is no longer trinitarian.

 

I do believe Jesus is God (particularly by virtue of His office) - but I reject the concept of the "Incarnation". Nowhere in Scripture do you find the word "incarnation" - that is actually a pagan idea.

 

You have to remember a lot of Christianity has got mixed up with pagan ideas and a lot of wrong beliefs got in.

 

This is illogical. By this logic, a spirit cannot wail and gnash their teeth.

Exactly - a spirit cannot wail and gnash their teeth. But mortal bodies can and in the resurrection of the damned which Jesus refers to, they will. Then they will die again in the Second Death spoken about in the book of Revelation.

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SO God made a sacrifice to Adam and Eve hmmm interesting, now youve placed Adam and Eve above and God is their servant.

I am only quoting the Bible:

Gen 3:21 ¶ Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

 

 

who said any thing about sins we do it to stick to the ritual of Abraham which you do not follow.

No I do not believe Muslims kill animals and offer the blood to the priests. There aren't any Jewish priests - you can't keep this part of the Law concerning animal sacrifice.

 

The reason for the animal sacrifice was because of sin: that is why the blood of the animal was shed.

 

You see you guys are a very rebelious people,

Yes some Christians are rebellious and rebellion is part of human nature.

 

you say that you respect what Paul was trying to do but.... you dont need to practice covering your hair, funny because ive always seen Mary dipicted with her head covered. Paul didnt follow all of Jesus's teaching then why should you follow Pauls, i understand your disobedence Paul disobeyed and now you disobey Paul, and now you figure that because your in modern times that the laws nolonger apply, strange bunch you follow. Jesus was never ever like this.

It is called the Royal Law of Love -which is freedom, yet called to live in holiness within that freedom.

 

the wine you speak of is fermented grapes the wine Jesus speaks of is Juice not strong drink which is what wine is it is stronger than juice and Jesus never drank alchohol look at this..

 

Luke 1:15

For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Great in the sight of the Lord and SHALL DRINK NEITHER WINE NOR STRONG DRINK.. still think Jesus drank alchohol?? do you drink wine or strong drinks?? you wont be calle great!!

 

read on..

ROmans 14 21It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

 

well well alchohol sure makes people stumbleth, and its smell is offensive to us who dont drink and its a known fact that alchohol makes you weak

and you say Jesus made this huh??lol

......Jesus said in Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

 

....and at the last super:

Luke 22:17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

 

the Old Testament does not forbid wine:

 

Ec 9:7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.

 

I think it is maybe you have a fearful prejudice against wine and see it as an unclean thing, but there is nothing in the bible to say it is unclean. It is gluttony and drinking in excess which is unclean.

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Before taking verses out of context, who gets to decide how to interpret the scripture?

Scripture. Because Scripture does not contradict itself.

 

The idea that man has an immortal soul which ether departs to heaven or goes down to the burning pits of hell is a Babylonian pagan myth, which then became an Egyptian myth and then a Greek hellenistic myth. there is a lot of paganism in Christianity, and it has to be discerned and rooted out.

 

The Hebrew word for "hell" in the Tenach is "Sheol" which simply means "grave".

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Heart for Muslims, can you tell me how were the Scriptures preserved? Do you know how the Old Testament was preserved? Do you know how the New Testament was preserved, more importantly the Gospels? Who preserved them? In what fashion were they preserved and transmitted? This is what I would like to know. As a matter of fact, this is my primary concern. There is no need to really talk of a document being Divine unless it can proven to have been authentically transmitted and preserved. That goes for any type of document which claims Divinity, be it the Qur'an or the Bible.

 

How is that verse trinitarian? It is only trinitarian if you read it with trinitarian glasses on. Take them off, and it is no longer trinitarian.

 

I do believe Jesus is God (particularly by virtue of His office) - but I reject the concept of the "Incarnation". Nowhere in Scripture do you find the word "incarnation" - that is actually a pagan idea.

 

You have to remember a lot of Christianity has got mixed up with pagan ideas and a lot of wrong beliefs got in.

 

Do you even have to ask how is that verse Trinitarian? Look, I am not a Trinitarian, I am very opposed to the belief of Trinity and Jesus being God but I can't really deny that it supports Trinity according to which Jesus is God along with the Father. Seriously, you might find me arguing against the Trinity but you wouldn't find me arguing against the fact that the concept of "God=Word, Word becomes flesh, Word dwells among people" is Trinitarian. You tell me that you don't believe in the Trinity, yet I still see you saying that Jesus is God. Are the Father and the Holy Spirit also God? If your answer is yes, then that's the very definition of Trinity. And as for Tertullian, he coined the term "Trinity" but as far as I know he didn't invent it, Trinity being to me the concept that the Father, Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit are somehow one, no matter how you choose to describe it - even Jesus being called God in my book means Trinitariasim which I equate with idolatry. He also coined other expressions as I read from the wiki article such as "Old Testament" and "New Testament" which are also in common use.

 

You reject the "Incarnation"? I am afraid that if God is the Word, Jesus is God, the Word is God, the Word becomes flesh and dwells among ment, it is the very concept of incarnation in a nutshell - in which I don't believe either - but I cannot deny that it means incarnation from a literary exegetical stand point. Look, there are a lot of words which are not in the Bible. Take as an example "monotheism", it is not in the Bible. But I do agree with you that incarnation is a pagan idea, and I also believe that calling Jesus God is idolatry. And I definately agree with you that Christianity definately got mixed up with a lot of Pagan ideas. That's why you need to be careful from whom you take your religion from; that's why, as I said previously, my main concern is who preserved and transmitted the Scripture. If it is Trinitarians, your case is pretty weak.

Edited by Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz

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