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Bin Qasim

Why a scientist believes in God?

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and yes we have our brains but inside brains we have cells or dnas which are not belittle. and you cant ignore this...everywhere is like His signature..

 

 

Okay, true. The DNA, the cells, our brain's neural capacity is quite amazing and it is an incredible thought to envision such a perfection of nature, whith such divine order. The problem is, the part which confuses me, is how you recognize that phenomenon and then assign such human characteristics to that same entity. You say we must obey god and his rules, if not he will punish us. This is the nature of human beings, of great rulers. In traditional times, if you disobeyed the ruler or king, you would face punishment. Except in this case, if you tell people they will face punishment for eternity, it's the best way to engrave fear within them. This is now out of the domain of how beautiful nature is and relating it to the single principle of the universe. You can't deny this. It just doesn't make any sense. The game of fear, is the game of humans, it is how they have survived by conquering other lands and nations, holding people in captivity. This is a game of mental captivity, of using fear as a weapon to control people. Just like the U.S. goverment now, as they have convinced americans that they must give up certain rights and liberties in order to prevent chaos or mass devestation from striking their homeland. Again, it's a tactic of using fear to contain the masses.

 

 

 

and i found this while surfing internet....

 

Naturally, God has no need to test people to see their attitudes, since it is our Lord who has created all events, times and places. God is not constrained by time and place. What for us are the past and future have been lived and come to an end in an instant in His sight. However, God allows us to experience these tests and causes so that people should witness their own attitudes and understand why they go to heaven or hell. Someone who knows that God is his friend-that He is infinitely just, compassionate and loving- will accept this creation of His.

 

He gives people the feeling that they are doing these actions themselves, of their own free will. Within that feeling, He announces by means of the Quran that we are responsible for everything He reveals. That responsibility is to obey all of our Lord's commands. We can learn beyond this only if God wills. If He wishes, God can reveal this secret and wisdom to us either in the world or in the hereafter. Or if He wishes, never at all. As stated in a verse, 'they cannot grasp any of His knowledge save what He wills'. (The Quran, 2: 255) Whatever happens, God is our Lord and Protector. It is therefore our duty to trust in Him, who gives us so many blessings, and to be pleased with everything He creates.

 

God charges us to abide by the Quran. What we have to do is to carefully abide by His commands and prohibitions.

 

There is considerable wisdom within this test. One of these is that we are tested and then sent to heaven or hell for all eternity as a result. Further wisdom could lie in the way people can witness what they do throughout their lives, and see why the morality by which they have lived should lead them to heaven or hell at the Day of Judgment. But God knows best. All we can do is to pray that He will reveal His knowledge to us

 

 

Now with the issue of heaven and hell, again it almost sounds sensible, but one little flaw can undermine the ideology. Lets take for example a boy who was raised with his parents, mother and father. Lets say the father is abusive towards the mother, but this is the only father the boy has, the only biological father. And let's assume the boy is pure in heart, and has suffered, so he should suffer no more. He is told, accordingly with the teachings of the Quran, and other religious texts, that the acts his father committed will send him down the pathway of eternal hell. But in a perfect heaven for this boy, in a paradise of eternity, everything should be perfect. He would want to be reunited with his father and mother, happily one day, in the afterlife. But how can it be, when his father should pay the consequences for his actions. That's not part of the boy's paradise, perfect picture, happy ending, etc. So it is impossible, for an all perfect paradise in the afterlife.

 

 

And my other question to you, which is very typical, why is it that you accept Islam and the Quran as the word of god. What proof has been presented to you which eliminates any doubt in your heart? How can you be so certain of something that's not even remotely within the level of practical thinking. Religion is not something you can test in a laboratory, you can never uncover the truth from it. So what makes you so certain?

 

Thanks.

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PropellerAds
The problem is, the part which confuses me, is how you recognize that phenomenon and then assign such human characteristics to that same entity.

 

 

Honestly, either you have been ignoring what I have been telling you, or you misconstrued my posts.

 

 

But in a perfect heaven for this boy, in a paradise of eternity, everything should be perfect. He would want to be reunited with his father and mother, happily one day, in the afterlife.

 

 

Firstly, if a Muslim sinner ends up in Hell, he will be released from the Fire eventually, if he dies a Believer. People will be of a different psychology in Paradise. The boy whose father is in Hell, will not grieve.

 

"...on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."(Baqara: 274).

 

 

why is it that you accept Islam and the Quran as the word of god. What proof has been presented to you which eliminates any doubt in your heart?

 

 

Islam is the only Religion that makes sense. The only Religion that explains our existence in a logical way. We have been given proof of Islam. If we weren't, we would not obligated to submit to our Lord. The greatest proof would be the Qur'an, and if you want to know how the Qur'an is a proof, then you will have to learn the Arabic language. It is unwise to reject that of which you have no comprehensive knowledge.

 

Islam, which means submission to (the will of) Allah, is the Way of every Prophet and Messenger that was sent before Muhammad(s.a.w). It is the followers of those Prophets that have changed their teachings. Everything, living or non-living is in a state of Islam. The Earth, Sun, Moon and the whole Universe is submitted to it's Creator.

 

The Prophet Muhammad(s.a.w) is another proof. I suggest you read the biography of the Messenger of Allah(s.a.w).

I have also shown you proof in the debate we've had, but you seem to be ignoring it, and your only argument was that neither of us have proved anything. You read English translations of the Book of Allah and you think you have found errors in it! Have you read the entire Qur'an? You claim you were once a Muslim, but you appear to have zero knowledge of Islam, Freethinker.

Edited by Yousuf

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Honestly, either you have been ignoring what I have been telling you, or you misconstrued my posts.

 

I have not been ignoring your posts. Nothing you have said has made any end conclusion on this argument.

 

 

 

Islam is the only Religion that makes sense. The only Religion that explains our existence in a logical way. We have been given proof of Islam. If we weren't, we would not obligated to submit to our Lord. The greatest proof would be the Qur'an, and if you want to know how the Qur'an is a proof, then you will have to learn the Arabic language. It is unswise to reject that of which you have no comprehensive knowledge.

 

Islam, which means submission to (the will of) Allah. Islam is the Way of every Prophet and Messenger that was sent before Muhammad(s.a.w), it is the followers of those Prophets that have changed their teachings. Everything, living or non-ving is in a state of Islam. The Earth, Sun, Moon and the whole Universe is submitted to it's Creator.

 

The Prophet Muhammad(s.a.w) is another proof. I suggest you read the biography of the Messenger of Allah(s.a.w).

I have also shown you proof in the debate we've had, but you seem to be ignoring it, and your only argument was that neither of us have proved anything. You read English translations of the Book of Allah and you think you have found errors in it! Have you read the entire Qur'an? You claim you were once a Muslim, but you appear to have zero knowledge of Islam, Freethinker

 

 

In the debates we've had, i haven't ignored anything. I've been responding, but obviously we've gotten nowhere. In the argument on science, you make it seem as if the Quran explicitly in detail has described the universe, the embryo, the way life works and functions, oblivious to the fact that alot of what the Quran discusses is nothing original, but in fact can be matched with many of the theories that existed at the time by the great philosophers and thinkers.

 

The challenge of the arabic verses you presented to me, were not so miraculously different from the english. My same argument applied to them. You act as if you have proven your word without a doubt. You try to cover up discrepancies between certain Quranic verses and science by claiming that i've misinterpreted the verse, even after you provided me the correct meaning from arabic to english.

 

I have no knowledge you say? Was i just babbling those verses? Was I just making up stories about history and muhammad? You can't even admit that Islam was founded upon political rivalry between the caliphs and ali. You say it's just a "difference in interpretation"..a difference in interpretation about the word of god? I think not! As a result of this difference of interpretation people read the Quran based upon the interpretation of their own school of thought. Muslims try to cover this up by saying we're all the same under Allah.

 

I used the verses straight from the Quran, the arabic translations you gave me did not contradict my argument at all. Your defense is I have "zero knowledge". That's pretty harsh considering everything i've presented to you. You feel discomforted with my challenge so you are categorizing my knowledge on Islam, the religion i've accepted most of my life, as being ignorant. If i have zero knowledge on Islam, then you have zero knowledge on science when relating it to the Quran. Again, any miraculous verse from the Quran you've thrown at me is not so divine at all, considering human beings at the time already contended such theories and ideas about our world and universe.

 

You say Islam is a good, peaceful, and logical religion. In comparison to the other religions, i agree with you. I was never militant about my beliefs at all, i wasn't trying to offend anyone. But as soon as i pose logical challenges against you and your religion, you tell me i have zero knowledge, i've been proven wrong, and my only defense is that nothing has been proven either way, because just as all dogmatists you believe there is an absolute answer right away for everything, that it is certain. You can't accept criticism because it is the antithesis of your ideology.

I'm not telling you to abandon your faith, we all have our own form of faith. All i suggested was that isn't it possible Islam is filled with some errors, when studying other philosphies, history, and ideas that existed prior to the birth of Islam, there is a possibility Islam isn't so divine afterall. How can i have no knowledge on my own religion i was brought up with? For years I listened to stories, verses, translations of the Quran, the life of muhammad, the sunni-shia issue, the caliphs, ahluyl bayte, the reason behind praying 5 times a day, heaven and hell, Allah's mercy and justice, etc. I don't want to babble on forever. I was even privileged to be raised with a very moderate and open minded view of Islam, but i'm not even attacking that.

 

Do you think i'm actually that happy with my beliefs? I have many muslim friends. I sit and wish that one day there was something so miraculous that could happen to me, to bring me back to my faith in the god i use to pray and worship to, because i was so certain about his existence, i could count on him. That's such a warm hearted feeling. So in final response, i haven't ignored any of your challenges(if you have any you would like to go into detail, even if we've already discussed it then go ahead), i have knowledge on Islam, and i never intended to offend you because i feel at some point you made that assumption.

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"muslims-unite/s_belief/aqleeyah/aqleeyah_3.htm"]Rational Proofs for the Existence of a Single Unlimited Creator of the Universe[/url]

 

"geocities/WestHollywood/Park/6443/Quran/AUTHQURAN.htm"]Material on the Authenticity of the Qur’an [/url]

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Freethinker,

 

Obviously you have perceived my post as offensive, I certainly never meant to offend you.

 

 

If you have not ignored my posts, then you have misconstrued them, even though I made it clear and repeated myself many times. I, as a Muslim, understand the Islamic Creed. The Qur'an does not teach us that Allah is a man or the He resembles man in any way. Anthropomorphism is considered blasphemy in Islam.

 

It is clear to me that you have never learned the Muslim Creed, you have read the Qur'an, but you have not been taught the correct interpretations of the Attributes of Allah. I can tell that you do have very little knowledge of Islam, and I'm sorry if you feel offended, but that is what you have shown.

 

 

Before I became a Muslim, I had doubts. I found it difficult to believe in a human-like deity residing in the Heavens above, with human-like attributes. I began to study Islam and eventually I learned that what we call "Allah" is not a physical entity that is within time and place.

 

"There is nothing like Him"(Al-Ikhlaas: 4)

 

His seeing, hearing, love or wrath are fathomless Attributes. They are in no way similar to man's. Allah communicates with human beings in a way then can understand. Failing to grasp the words of Allah is no reason to apostate.

 

you make it seem as if the Quran explicitly in detail has described the universe, the embryo

 

It has given a correct and miraculous description of the embryo. Did Galen know that the embryo appears as a thing which clings, or as a chewed substance? Or that that the bones come first and then are clothed in flesh? How then can you claim Muhammad(s.a.w) stole his idea? The difference, as you can notice, on embryology in the Qur'an and the theory of Galen is that the Qur'an is right!

 

It has to agree with Galen that the embryo passes through four stages because this is correct. Your claim here is that because the Qur'an mentions four stages, as Galen has, there is a possibility Muhammad(s.a.w) could have plagiarized it, even though the Qur'an correctly describes the stages, and Galen did not. The description is a miracle, and a refutation to your claim.

 

 

The challenge of the arabic verses you presented to me, were not so miraculously different from the english.

 

 

This we cannot discuss because you don't understand Arabic. :smile:

 

You try to cover up discrepancies between certain Quranic verses and science by claiming that i've misinterpreted the verse, even after you provided me the correct meaning from arabic to english.

 

 

You have misinterpreted the verses. Also, you've contradicted yourself when you said that any scientific discovery can be disproven, buy yet you claimed that if the Qur'an disagrees with science, it is wrong.

 

It is possible for the Qur'an to disagree with science on certain issues, but I would always trust the Omniscient Creator more than the scientist.

 

Was I just making up stories about history and muhammad?

 

You say you have knowledge of Islam and it's history, then can you provide me a a Hadith as historical evidence that Abu Bakr and Ali disagreed on the word of Allah?

 

The Answering Islam website is very misleading.

 

 

As a result of this difference of interpretation people read the Quran based upon the interpretation of their own school of thought. Muslims try to cover this up by saying we're all the same under Allah.

 

 

Again, you show how much knowledge of Islam you really have. I have no idea what you are saying. Tell me, what do you know about the Islamic Schools of Thought? How are these Schools of Thought in any way related to the issue of Abu Bakr and Ali's Caliphates?

 

 

Do you think i'm actually that happy with my beliefs? I have many muslim friends. I sit and wish that one day there was something so miraculous that could happen to me, to bring me back to my faith in the god i use to pray and worship to, because i was so certain about his existence, i could count on him.

 

 

Before I reverted, I felt the same way. I thought to myself that I could never accept the Qur'an. Allah then gave me knowledge, and He guided me. I am guessing you left Islam at a very young age, when you didn't know enough about it. It truly saddens me how some people reject Faith because they have no understanding of it.

 

"...Verily, the promise of Allah is true: let not then this present life deceive you, nor let the Chief Deceiver(Satan) deceive you about Allah."(31:33)

Edited by Yousuf

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Freethinker,

 

Obviously you have perceived my post as offensive, and I apologise because I sounded a bit too harsh. I certainly never meant to offend you.

 

 

If you have not ignored my posts, then you have misconstrued them, even though I made it clear and repeated myself many times. I, as a Muslim, understand the Islamic Creed. The Qur'an does not teach us that Allah is a man or the He resembles man in any way. Anthropomorphism is considered blasphemy in Islam.

 

It is clear to me that you have never learned the Muslim Creed, you have read the Qur'an, but you have not been taught the correct interpretations of the Attributes of Allah. I can tell that you do have very little knowledge of Islam, and I'm sorry if you feel offended, but that is what you have shown.

 

 

Before I became a Muslim, I had doubts. I found it difficult to believe in a human-like deity residing in the Heavens above, with human-like attributes. I began to study Islam and eventually I learned that what we call "Allah" is not a physical entity that is within time and place.

 

"There is nothing like Him"(Al-Ikhlaas: 4)

 

His seeing, hearing, love or wrath are fathomless Attributes. They are in no way similar to man's. Allah communicates with human beings in a way then can understand. Failing to grasp the words of Allah is no reason to apostate.

 

 

 

Dear Yousuf,

 

 

I through my childhood was brought up a muslim. I was lucky though, to have been taught a peaceful Islam one without the violence and false representation that we continuously witness today. My reason of apostasy didn't have to do with some misunderstanding of Islam, i was raised with very decent and rational values. My mother never forced my religion on me, and i still have open discussions and arguments with her day to day. I didn't turn away from Islam because i was militantly against it, hated it, or it's rules, or even it's peaceful message. Do you know what agnosticism is? It is about being unsure, not having an answer about the world. Why am I not an atheist, because I cannot accept the fact that our universe came from nothingess. I just cannot logically percieve of a higher order, or deity which watches over it's creations, and engages with them on a personal level of prayer, worship, etc. It's how i define the world around me. Just like buddhism is a very peaceful religion, but it doesn't make it true and divine. This is my view of Islam. My opposition towards god, is not towards Islam by any means.

 

 

I know Islam had a positive effect on society. Civilization was at the peak of technological advancements under the spread of Islam. The great thinkers and scientists such as ibn sina, al ghazali, abu nasr, etc. identified themselves as muslims. Ibn sina taught medicine at a very early age, and was a great philosopher, and political thinker as well.

 

It is noted in history, that the jews and muslims coexisted most peacefully under Islamic rule in which the jews and people of other faiths were allowed to practice their religion freely under the condition of not being traitors to their state and fellow companions. I know how muhammad replaced, or made an attempt to, the tribal aristocracy which was existing at the his present time, with a more just and democratic system of law and order. His message, abolished the old idea of worshipping idols and undermined the superior authority of the tribal leaders over the poor peasants and people who were struggling at the time. There were tribes such as the Banu Ghassan, of palestine and souther syria, who converted to Islam from their old faith of christianity. At the battle of Qadisiyyah, many christians beloning to the bedouin tribes came to the muslims in submission to Allah.

 

I know there is one story where someone went to the prophet and asked him if the mother or father is more important. After replying to the person 3 times saying the mother should be respected, the fourth time muhammad said the father should. I respect this, and muhammad for it, no argument here.

 

I respect the sense of equality Islam emphasizes, and that there is no distinction between a poor and a rich man, which is why all people are required to wear the same white clothing when going to haij.

 

 

When it comes to the issue of shias and sunnis, i cannot just simply assume we are all muslims. I strongly believed, ages ago, that this was wrong and just divided muslims and I still hold true to that belief to this very day. But to the point, where basic fundamental principles of Islam differ on many levels, when there are different interpretations of the Quran, from the shiite, and sunni point of view, which includes the five different sunni schools of thought, i do not know which to be true. The hadiths cannot be trusted because they were translated and re-written years after the death of muhammad.

 

 

The god Islam preaches i think is more believable on a philosophical level, in comparison to the other religions. It perpetuates the idea of an infinite entity, unknowing to man, you could almost even say agnsotic. This is the god, similar to the one envisioned by the great dutch philosopher spinoza, he believed in an infinite god, a god that existed in all the many dimensions of the universe, even dimensions still unknown to man.

 

This is all great, and i respect it. But again, as I told you, after witnessing the world today, after seeing such brutal and unhuman behavior, it's hard at the end of the day to submit myself to this loving and compassionate entity. When i see shiite Masjids being subjected to five bombings within a day or two, on the basis of ideological difference, it brings a sense of self doubt and pessimism within me which i wish didn't exist. I don't know how to explain such hate, and eternal justice is not enough of an answer for me.

 

You say the love god has for his creations is not the same love one human being has for another. But this love between humans is the only one my brain can comprehend. Am I expected to define something that is undefined? To explain to myself the unexplainable? By logic of argument, a god that loves is also one that hates. Hate has to exist, because it is the antithesis of love, it is it's opposite, a lack of hate produces love, and a lack of love produces hate. Both variables are dependent upon eachother, and they must both exist.

 

Muslims were once the great thinkers of civilization, the muslims developed the idea of algebra. But, unfortunately there has been a misinterpretation of their faith which has transgressed into violence today. I know how important it is for muslims to become intellects, and it is a request for them, because the first word the angel Gabriel told Muhammad was: "read".

 

I respect you and any muslim for their beliefs, and am always open to discuss mine with them. Thanks.

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"Alif Laam Raa. A book which we have revealed to you (Muhammad) so that you may lead the people from out of the darknesses into the light by their Lord's leave to the path of the All-Mighty, the Praiseworthy." [Qur'an 14:1]

 

You say the love god has for his creations is not the same love one human being has for another. But this love between humans is the only one my brain can comprehend.

 

if it was the same love has the human type of love then you'd say that God has human like qualities which you said doesnt seem to be God's quality .. what side are you on?

 

but anyway .. as far as i know .. Allah lovs us and it is bcoz of that lov that He will be just with us. in surah Maryam near the end i remember Allah said over and over again 'Rahman Rahman Rahman' in many different ayahs to show that HE is the MOST MERCIFUL (that was also coz of the christian saying that god needed to sacrifice and spill blood in order to forgive ""They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" "" but ...) and that HE can forgive whoever he wants. to explain to us His Mercy we'r given an example that Allah lovs us (equavelant or more) like 70 mothers. you know how much a mother can lov her child right? now imagine that love 70 times more thats how much Allah lovs us! (maybe that example was given to show someone like you who doesnt understand any other lov but human love)

 

this life is a test for us from Allah Subhanawata'aala .. we have the choice to make the right or wrong decision .. we have free will when it comes to making choices ... Allah All knowing, knows what choices we'll make and He know where we will end up 'However, God allows us to experience these tests and causes so that people should witness their own attitudes and understand why they go to heaven or hell.' .. Allah is the most Just .. He will NEVER be unfair with anyone .. (i dont get why it is that when people feel pain and sorrow they remember Allah saying why me why me.. o there couldnt be any god if there was we wouldnt be like this .. and when Allah takes care of thier worries and removes their sorrows and pain they go back to living thier normal life saying Allah? who?) but anyway ..

 

Do you think i'm actually that happy with my beliefs? I have many muslim friends. I sit and wish that one day there was something so miraculous that could happen to me, to bring me back to my faith in the god i use to pray and worship to, because i was so certain about his existence, i could count on him.

 

SubhanAllah! May Allah bring you back to the right path .. Allah alone knows whats going on in your mind even better then you ..

 

you say you want to come back to the right path then atleast listen with an open mind .. when you read what others have said here listen and use common sense .. instead of comparing it with your own reasoning or else you wont get anywhere .. read "you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=13205&dgn=4"]this[/url]

 

All success is from Allah.

(if i've said something wrong plz correct me)

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also i read you said your waiting for a miracle to happen .. i use to think the same thing and that kept me from seeing everything else .. i dono bout you but i was waiting for something BIG like i start to fly or something (not really but example of how big of a miracle i wanted to see) .. but you dont get it .. the miracles are all around us .. everywhere .. !! one thing i was like shocked on when i found out was about dajjal .. (correct me if im wrong i get mixed up with names) i read how he'd be able to travel SOOOOOOOOO FAST from one corner of the world to another in a few seconds or something .. and i read how he'd be seen everywhere at the same time .. and i was like how the heck is that possible then i realized we have transportation to take you from one corner of the world to the next in a matter of hours ! and their inventing new stuff by the minute .. and tv is what i can think off where you can be seen all across the world at one time! i mean like .. that and many others are like miracles for me .. What Allah said will happen .. will really happen .. and when i read all the rest of the Quran it all makes sense and fits together .. i serously suggest you read the Quran again and this time dont intrepret verses with your own thinking .. thats wrong .. get a tafseer of the Quran or talk to an alim (not online maybe somewhere in your community if you live in canada (ontario) i know someone really great you can talk to) ..

 

and whats the shia sunni thing you were talking about?

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also i read you said your waiting for a miracle to happen .. i use to think the same thing and that kept me from seeing everything else .. i dono bout you but i was waiting for something BIG like i start to fly or something (not really but example of how big of a miracle i wanted to see) .. but you dont get it .. the miracles are all around us .. everywhere .. !! one thing i was like shocked on when i found out was about dajjal .. (correct me if im wrong i get mixed up with names) i read how he'd be able to travel SOOOOOOOOO FAST from one corner of the world to another in a few seconds or something .. and i read how he'd be seen everywhere at the same time .. and i was like how the heck is that possible then i realized we have transportation to take you from one corner of the world to the next in a matter of hours ! and their inventing new stuff by the minute .. and tv is what i can think off where you can be seen all across the world at one time! i mean like .. that and many others are like miracles for me .. What Allah said will happen .. will really happen .. and when i read all the rest of the Quran it all makes sense and fits together .. i serously suggest you read the Quran again and this time dont intrepret verses with your own thinking .. thats wrong .. get a tafseer of the Quran or talk to an alim (not online maybe somewhere in your community if you live in canada (ontario) i know someone really great you can talk to) ..

 

and whats the shia sunni thing you were talking about?

 

 

 

This is very typical of muslims to justify their doctrine of belief. Tales such as jins, who are of a different race are believed to possess capabilities humans cannot. I have heard one story of a woman who was at home alone and sleeping at night when she woke up and went to the living room with all her furniture piled on top of eachother with a jin sitting on top. In all relgions, you hear such tales, I mean christians actually believe jesus was god, and had the same powers. These stories never end. Shias believe that imam mahdi, the last imam who is believed to return with jesus as a sign of the day of judgement, can travel at incredibly fast rates. People say he's outlived natural human age.

 

You see this is the basis for dogma, something that is told to us without proof and yet we're expected to uncritically accept it. Let me ask you this, why is it i always hear stories of these great believers who seem to always stumble, repetitively, on these miracles of god, such as jins? How can we logically accept, with the laws and equations of science we have today that someone can travel the world in an instant of a second. Only something with infinite mass and high energy can travel at the rate you just described, this is a mathematical certainty. The physical nature of human beings keeps us in bound with the laws of nature. Subatomic particles can travel at relatively fast speeds due to their size. But to travel at such a fast rate, you have to be infinitely dense, and small in size.

 

Where is the proof for these beliefs? Stating simply that the rhythmatic nature of the Quran cannot be replicated as the source of belief is faulty. Caedmon was an english poet who was illiterate and developed some of the most influential anglo-saxon poetry.

 

The shia sunni issue i am talking about is the mere fact that after the split of Islam in sunni and shia, people actually interpreted the Quran differently, but still accepted it as the word of god. How can that be? This was all based upon political agenda. I cannot associate the word of god with this. Hadiths were changed, there are even historical accounts of the rulers of the time changing the Quran itself. How do I know the Quran that sits in my room today is identical to the one muhammad had transcribed onto those leaves of paper? I respect moderate muslims from trying to discard that as they see it is the root of the split of Islam today and is the cause of so much fighting. But we cannot just simply ignore it. It has defined Islam today. This is why today, ashurah which is the holiest day for shias while they mourn the death of imam hussayn at karbala for trying to defend ali's name who also happens to be the fourth caliph of sunni Islam, there were endless bombings in baghdad to kill the shias because they are believed to be "kaffirs". I am not labeling Islam as this, but it is somehow, in a deep deep way, connected with the initial split of Islam. Denying this would be denying reality. There is no other way to explain such inhumane behavior by these people.

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my belief in dajjal and all comes from my belief in the Quran ... i believe what prophet Mohommad sallalaho alaihi wasallam said was true in everyway .. so its not hard for me to believe something like the coming of dajjal .. just coz you hear em in all religions doesnt make them believable or unbelievable .. look at the base of religion and see where that comes from and how people are told to follow thier religion .. why cant the Quran be proof? .. no one has ever been able to write another thing like it .. not one chapter .. how can i ignore that?

 

where's your proof to show that hadith were changed? how did people interpret the meaning of Quran on thier own differently? i mean where's your proof for that? i dont get where your getting that from ..

 

the deal with ashura is a really big topic which i can get you info on .. the shia mourning etc has nothing to do with it ..the significance of ashruah was put in place way before the death of Hussien .. none of the sahabah ever took this day as a day of mourning or celebration .. so what made the shia feel so special as to start this new idea? they even go as far as to mock the sahaba and call them hypocrites .. Allah chose those sahabah to be with prophet Mohommad sallalaho alaihi wasallam .. Prophet Mohommad sallalaho alaihi wasallam said himself “Those of you who live after my death will see many disputes. I urge you to adhere to my Sunnah and the sunnah of my rightly-guided successors (al-khulafa’ al-raashidoon) who come after me. Hold onto it as if biting it with your eyeteeth. Beware of newly-innovated matters, for every innovation is a going astray.� Neither the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) nor his rightly-guided successors (the khulafa’ al-raashidoon) did any of these things on the day of ‘Aashooraa’, they neither made it a day of mourning nor a day of celebration... i dont know if the shias are kaafirs or not .. i dont have any knowledge on that ..

 

the proof for me that Quran is the truth and that the prophet spoke the truth is that nothing is like this religion .. there hasnt been one person who was able to write something like the Quran and if you think thats false then i dare you to write it ! try as hard as you want and you wouldnt be able to .. coz this book is from Allah .. as guidance for mankind .. if the Quran had been changed then someone should be able to mimic its style etc ..

 

read "you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=23487&dgn=4"]this[/url]

 

(if ive said something wrong .. sorry .. plz correct it ..)

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*couldnt edit ...

 

*ther'r more reasons for me to believe in this book but i gota go right now and i dono if you'd wana hear my other reasons so ya ..

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my belief in dajjal and all comes from my belief in the Quran ... i believe what prophet Mohommad sallalaho alaihi wasallam said was true in everyway .. so its not hard for me to believe something like the coming of dajjal .. just coz you hear em in all religions doesnt make them believable or unbelievable .. look at the base of religion and see where that comes from and how people are told to follow thier religion .. why cant the Quran be proof? .. no one has ever been able to write another thing like it .. not one chapter .. how can i ignore that?

 

where's your proof to show that hadith were changed? how did people interpret the meaning of Quran on thier own differently? i mean where's your proof for that? i dont get where your getting that from ..

 

the deal with ashura is a really big topic which i can get you info on .. the shia mourning etc has nothing to do with it ..the significance of ashruah was put in place way before the death of Hussien .. none of the sahabah ever took this day as a day of mourning or celebration .. so what made the shia feel so special as to start this new idea? they even go as far as to mock the sahaba and call them hypocrites .. Allah chose those sahabah to be with prophet Mohommad sallalaho alaihi wasallam .. Prophet Mohommad sallalaho alaihi wasallam said himself “Those of you who live after my death will see many disputes. I urge you to adhere to my Sunnah and the sunnah of my rightly-guided successors (al-khulafa’ al-raashidoon) who come after me. Hold onto it as if biting it with your eyeteeth. Beware of newly-innovated matters, for every innovation is a going astray.� Neither the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) nor his rightly-guided successors (the khulafa’ al-raashidoon) did any of these things on the day of ‘Aashooraa’, they neither made it a day of mourning nor a day of celebration... i dont know if the shias are kaafirs or not .. i dont have any knowledge on that ..

 

the proof for me that Quran is the truth and that the prophet spoke the truth is that nothing is like this religion .. there hasnt been one person who was able to write something like the Quran and if you think thats false then i dare you to write it ! try as hard as you want and you wouldnt be able to .. coz this book is from Allah .. as guidance for mankind .. if the Quran had been changed then someone should be able to mimic its style etc ..

 

 

 

First of all, the most obvious proof is basic physics. You claim that it is possible for someone to travel from one location in this world to another in an infinitely small increment of time. If you've studied dynamics and newtonian physics, you will see how this is very impossible. The closest thing they've come across in science, in relation to that, is the "wormhole theory". It states that if there are wormholes, it might be possible to travel from one point in the universe to another in the split of a second. One of the conditions is that you have to be many times smaller than an atom. An atom! And you're saying it's possible for humans to do that? If we apply your claim to the equations we have, the equations will not work, they crumble to pieces.

 

As I mentioned before, there were certain testimonies by people such as Al-Kindi which were written around 835 CE which contradict your claims. Read it "atheists/Islam/mohammedanism.html"]here[/url]. You can't just delete this information from history.

 

To argue that the Quran is divine and the proof being that no one has been able to re-write something even relatively close to the Quran is like me saying shakespeare must have been a prophet of god for his beautiful literature. No one was able to even match what shakespeare wrote, that's why he's so famous, because shakespeare's work and poetry was so original and that's what made him so unique. But is he a prophet of god? What about Caedmon, he was illiterate just like muhammad?

 

 

The mourning of ashurah is just one traditional aspect of shia Islam. Moderate shias don't cry or beat themselves, they will just read du'ah as a symbol of mourning. The point is when certain individuals have the will power to strap bombs to themselves and go and kill 50 or so individuals for their ideological differences in a very holy shrine, you have to say to yourself what drives these people to committ such acts. They must have some sort of strong connection to something greater than mankind, some sort of higher power, something immaterialistic which justifies their cause. It is some sort of mental submission to insanity, and this is very sick minded. And especially when it happens again to the same group of people who have been victimized under tyrannical oppression for over 30 years, because of their yearn to express their own beliefs whether they are religioius or traditional ideas. This year's ashurah isn't just religious, it has a political symbol in it. For the first time, shias can have ashurah in the streets. But again, this all roots back to the days when Islam was split, and this cannot be discarded. Even when you talk to the most open minded muslims, you feel there is some sort of aggression towards the shias and vice versa with the sunnis. Because in people's hearts, they have a spiritual and mental connection to their divine doctrine of belief.

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I just cannot logically percieve of a higher order, or deity which watches over it's creations, and engages with them on a personal level of prayer, worship, etc.

 

 

Freethinker, "Allah" is not a physical entity, a deity that sits on a chair in the Seventh Heaven, watching down on us all. Allah is the formless, transcendent Necessary Existent. I understand that you believe in some form of Supreme Intelligence, but you have difficulty accepting the belief that this Supreme Intellience would answer prayers, or communicate with It's creation.

 

Why? Why is it so hard to believe that something infinitely Intelligent would be able to do this? The Qur'an says:

 

[12]He has made subject to you the Night and the Day; the Sun and the Moon; and the Stars are in subjection by His Command: verily in this are Signs for men who are wise.

 

[13] And the things on this Earth which He has multiplied in varying colours (and qualities): verily in this is a Sign for men who celebrate the praises of Allah (in gratitude).

 

[14] It is He Who has made the sea subject, that ye may eat thereof flesh that is fresh and tender, and that ye may extract therefrom ornaments to wear, and thou seest the ships therein that plough the waves, that ye may seek (thus) of the bounty of Allah and that ye may be grateful.(Surat An-Nahl)

 

If this Creator has subjected to us the Night and the Day, the Sun, Moon, and the whole Earth, for our benefit, then what is so difficult in believing that this Creator would actually respond to us when we ask from Him, or pray to Him? Or that He communicates with us, again, in a way that we can comprehend?

 

You say the love god has for his creations is not the same love one human being has for another. But this love between humans is the only one my brain can comprehend. Am I expected to define something that is undefined? To explain to myself the unexplainable?

 

 

We may not be able to define Allah's love, or understand exactly how He loves us, but this isn't a reason to reject it. You say that if Allah's love is like the love of human beings, then this would be illogical, buy yet you say if it is different and beyond our comprehension, it's still illogical to believe in it! This is typical of atheists.

 

 

 

Tales such as jins, who are of a different race are believed to possess capabilities humans cannot. I have heard one story of a woman who was at home alone and sleeping at night when she woke up and went to the living room with all her furniture piled on top of eachother with a jin sitting on top.

 

The Jinn, like Angels, are metaphysical beings. You deny their existence because you cannot see them. The Qur'an was not only revealed to mankind, but Jinn as well.

 

"O you assembly of Jinn and men! Came there not unto you Messengers from amongst you, setting forth unto you My Signs, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say: "We bear witness against ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived them. So against themselves will they bear witness that they rejected Faith."

 

If you've studied dynamics and newtonian physics, you will see how this is very impossible.

 

Anything is possible for the Al-Mighty Creator. Is it possible for the Universe to emerge out of nothing? Allah's creation of matter defied our laws of science, because,

 

"...Truly, Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise".(2:220).

 

 

Why do you bring Shiaism into this discussion? Shiaism is a sect, as you should know if you have been Muslim at one time, but I will not discuss this because sect discussion is disallowed in IF.

 

To argue that the Quran is divine and the proof being that no one has been able to re-write something even relatively close to the Quran is like me saying shakespeare must have been a prophet of god for his beautiful literature.

 

 

Freethinker, the Arab poets who tried to stand up to the challenge of the Qur'an undoubtedly excelled Shakespeare, if you have any knowledge of the history of Arab poetry. When they attempted to produce a single Surah like unto the Qur'an, they accused Prophet Muhammad(s.a.w) of witchcraft, because they could not do it. They would stuff their ears with cotton wool in fear that they will be converted upon hearing the supernatural Qur'an. Discussing the miracle of the Qur'an requires that we both fully understand Arabic, otherwise, it's pointless.

 

 

Could you also answer my questions in my last post? :smile:

Edited by Yousuf

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Freethinker, "Allah" is not a physical entity, a deity that sits on a chair in the Seventh Heaven, watching down on us all. Allah is the formless, transcendent Necessary Existent. I understand that you believe in some form of Supreme Intelligence, but you have difficulty accepting the belief that this Supreme Intellience would answer prayers, or communicate with It's creation.

 

Dear Yousuf,

 

I have delved so deep into this discussion, that I do not want to deviate from my own values and beliefs. Let me say this, again, if I can accept there is a god, who is even loving and compassionate, it would be the god of Islam for obvious reasons. I respect the idea of Allah having no physical links with humans. But again. Me praying to this supreme intelligence, is like me praying to the stars as if they are some sort of god that judges me on my actions as a human being.

 

 

We may not be able to define Allah's love, or understand exactly how He loves us, but this isn't a reason to reject it. You say that if Allah's love is like the love of human beings, then this would be illogical, buy yet you say if it is different and beyond our comprehension, it's still illogical to believe in it! This is typical of atheists.

 

 

This is what we have so far:

 

1). God that loves the way humans do.

2). Or love that is incomprehendable beyong our mental capacity.

 

Obviously the first claim has to be false since it contradicts the definition of god. What I am saying about the second definition is if it exists through god, it's illogical for humans to accept it, because we accept what we understand and define. I don't understand why god is telling us something we can never understand.

 

 

 

 

Freethinker, the Arab poets who tried to stand up to the challenge of the Qur'an undoubtedly excelled Shakespeare, if you have any knowledge of the history of Arab poetry. When they attempted to produce a single Surah like unto the Qur'an, they accused Prophet Muhammad(s.a.w) of witchcraft, because they could not do it. They would stuff their ears with cotton wool in fear that they will be converted upon hearing the supernatural Qur'an. Discussing the miracle of the Qur'an requires that we both fully understand Arabic, otherwise, it's pointless.

 

 

Could you also answer my questions in my last post?

 

 

People use to call the great thinkers of the old times witches for coming up with formulas and ideas about the universe, so this isn't the first time it's happened. My point is there were many remarkable people of those days, but they too were not prophets of god.

 

In regard to your previous post:

 

 

Tell me, what do you know about the Islamic Schools of Thought? How are these Schools of Thought in any way related to the issue of Abu Bakr and Ali's Caliphates?

 

 

In sunni Islam there are four major schools of thought: Hanbali, Hanafi, Maliki, and Shafei which adress on Islamic jurisprudence. Malik ibn Anas wrote, the Muwatta, which was a collection of traditions and laws. There were many lega arguments in this doctrine in regard to legality which was justified by the Quran. But if there were contradictions, the authorities of the city of medina would intervene. In Kufa, people relied on the opinion of jurists. Kufa was a more diversified society than medina, so it had equality of marriage, but in medina there wasn't such a law.

Many contradictions arose in the different schools of thought, people would either depend on the traditions of the prophet, or their own interpretations. Al-Shafi said that the Quran and the Sunna of muhammad were the only reliable sources of law.

 

So in different societies Islamic law was dependent upon the nature of the people and their ideas. My point is if there is the word of god, with his law, there ought to be one source. We assume it's the Quran, but obviously today this is not the case. Some people believe in mutahs(temporary marriage), some don't. But there should be a basic policy on this sort of matter. Take the idea of general relativity and quantum theory for example. Both theories in their own domains work. But when you merge them together, they contradict eachother on many levels. But if you are going to have a theory to describe the universe, it ought to be just one. The same is with religion, or Islam. There should be just one equation, one format, no different interpretations, or rituals. In the end, these different views exist accordingly with the agenda of the politics.

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Whether I'm talking about the different schools of thought in sunni Islam, or shiism's jafari or usuli school of thought it doesn't matter. Again for me it's a question of god, if I can accept the god that is being preached by Islam it could change my whole level of thinking and approach to this subject. I know you personally can't convince me of a loving and merciful god just as I cannot convince you of a nonloving and impersonal god. Obviously if I don't believe in the god you do, then also I can't accept the religion you accept. I cannot submit myself the way you have. The idea of religion is to seperate the mind from this external world of materialism, and to engage it in a more internal sphere of spirituality and higher order, something immaterialistic, an exit from this external world of suffering, a different answer. But I live in this world of materialism which is dominated by suffering, there are too many dead ends and I am left with this unjust world.

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:D

 

There should be just one equation, one format, no different interpretations, or rituals. In the end, these different views exist accordingly with the agenda of the politics.

 

This is Earth and we are not robots. One religion but we non-robots implement it according to our free will and desires.

 

The idea of religion is to seperate the mind from this external world of materialism, and to engage it in a more internal sphere of spirituality and higher order, something immaterialistic, an exit from this external world of suffering, a different answer. But I live in this world of materialism which is dominated by suffering, there are too many dead ends and I am left with this unjust world.

 

The idea of religion? What if the idea of religion is to be a way of life, how to live and deal with both physical reality and spirituality?

 

:D

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This is Earth and we are not robots. One religion but we non-robots implement it according to our free will and desires.

 

 

 

Yes, I agree we do have free wills. But Islam also claims that everything that happens is the will of god. You cannot believe in both ideologies. It makes more sense to accept that we have a free will, and everything is a result of this will. Is there a difference between saying god gave us the option to determine our own destiny through our will and saying that the will he gave us is in relation to his power and by that i mean everything we do is a result of god's power?

 

1). If we assume the first statement then we are saying that it is part of god's power in giving us the option to determine our destiny through our will. The first problem I see with this is that he is giving us the option to corrupt ourselves, why would he do that???? He is supposed to be loving right? Secondly, the moment god gives us that prower, it right away contradicts his definition of omnipotence. To say god has power, all power, and all knowing, this is assumed to apply to every particle and existing component of the universe for an infinite amount of time. If he is giving us some of that power, then he is abstaining from governing that small component of life, us the humans, through his power.

 

2). This statement is obviously unacceptable because if we assume god governs everything, than the way we govern ourselves is a result of his governance over us which undermines his whole existence.

 

 

The idea of religion? What if the idea of religion is to be a way of life, how to live and deal with both physical reality and spirituality?

 

 

Yes, I agree religon is a way of life. But the reality of the world exists on a physical level, not spiritual. Spirituality is good because it gives us peace, and is a sanctuary from this world of insanity. I would even call myself spiritual every now and then just to soothe my mind.

 

 

I am not fundamentally against religion. I believe if religion has a postive effect on humans, by making them peaceful, kind, and sincere in nature there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Like you said, it is a way of life. But, at the end of the day I see a reality which I try to seperate from my own world of abstractness and imagination. I participate in muslim activities with my family, I still celebrate eid, I go to muslim events, and talk to my friends. These are all peaceful rituals, I am not opposed to that. As I said before, I don't have a problem with Islam, I am not morally against it or any of it's teachings. I feel I am somewhat confused as a human being about who and what god is, and maybe one day I will find him and maybe I won't.

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peace fthinker,

 

about the authenticity of quran

 

all you said and are continuing to say about the quran is based on the atheistic site. And you give an example by al-Kindi who is christian. How can you rely on both. An atheist does not believe in God or quran. And a christian who was believing in a different book.

 

Today all over the world, there is one quran. And uthmans ra quran in istanbul, turkey in the museum. If it was different, y is it be still there.

What do you say about quran is nothing but insulting quran. This really offends me my friend.

And I am saying there is no evidence to prove your idea.

Edited by elif74

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Dear elif74,

 

Just as you said an atheist does not believe in god, a monotheist/muslim believes strongly in god and the Quran, so therefore will do anything and look for anything to prove it's authenticity. I've just pointed out certain historical accounts which should leave a question mark in our minds. My beliefs do not rely explicitly on how authentic the Quran is, but more so on the basis of logic. I just found the information I presented to be a bit interesting in the process.

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I respect the idea of Allah having no physical links with humans. But again. Me praying to this supreme intelligence, is like me praying to the stars as if they are some sort of god that judges me on my actions as a human being.

 

 

I understand what you are saying. Muslims believe that this "Supreme Intelligence" has the power to respond to supplications, just as it has the power to "subject to us the Sun, Moon and stars", for our benefit. If you believe this is a Supreme Intelligence, then how can you deny that it is able to answer people's prayers?

 

"Behold! In the creation of the Heavens and the Earth; in the alternation of the Night and the Day; in the sailing of the ships through the Ocean for the profit of mankind; in the rain which Allah sends down from the Skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an Earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the Earth; in the change of the winds and the clouds which they trail like their slaves between the Sky and the Earth, (here) indeed are Signs for a people that are wise."

 

In the creation of the Heavens and the Earth, it is obvious that this Higher Power actually cares for it's creation. Then I see nothing illogical with the belief that it would inspire certain men with Revelations, as a guide to life.

 

 

 

Obviously the first claim has to be false since it contradicts the definition of god. What I am saying about the second definition is if it exists through god, it's illogical for humans to accept it, because we accept what we understand and define. I don't understand why god is telling us something we can never understand.

 

 

So what you are telling me is that we should only accept that which we can define? Anything that is beyond our limits of comprehension should be rejected?

 

Allah does not require of us that we understand His Attributes, but that we believe in them, even though we are incapable of grasping their nature.

 

People use to call the great thinkers of the old times witches for coming up with formulas and ideas about the universe, so this isn't the first time it's happened. My point is there were many remarkable people of those days, but they too were not prophets of god.

 

 

The Hadiths state that the reason they accused Muhammad(s.a.w) of witchcraft is because of the miraculous nature of the Qur'an. When the Qur'an was first recited, the Quraysh, who were connosiuers of poetry and language, immediately recognised it to be of supernatural speech and eloquence, but were trying to make excuses to hide the fact. Ibn Ishaq recounts the incident of their consultation with Al-Walid B. Al-Mughira in his book Sirat Rasul Allah(s.a.w) as follows:

 

A number of the Quraysh came to al-Walid b. al-Mughira, who was a man of some standing and he addressed them in these words: 'The time of the fair has come round again and representatives of the Arabs will come to you and they will have heard about this fellow of yours, so agree upon one opinion without dispute so that none will give the lie to the other'. They replied, 'You give us your opinion about him.' He said, 'No, you speak and I will listen.' They said, 'He is a kahin.' He said, 'By Allah, he is not that, for he has not the unintelligent murmuring and rhymed speech of the kahin.' 'Then he is possessed,' they said. 'No, he is not that,' he said, 'we have seen possessed ones and here is no choking, spasmodic movements and whispering.' 'Then he is a poet,' they said. 'No, he is not a poet, for we know poetry in all its forms and metres.' 'Then he is a sorcerer.' 'No, we have seen sorcerors and their sorcery, and here is no spitting and no knots.'

 

"This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah; on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the Worlds."(Yunus:10)

 

 

In sunni Islam there are four major schools of thought: Hanbali, Hanafi, Maliki, and Shafei which adress on Islamic jurisprudence.

 

 

And what do these schools of thought have to with the caliphates of Ali and Abu Bakr(Allah be pleased with them)? Why do you say that Ali and Abu Bakr disagreed on the Word of Allah? Where is your evidence of this?

 

Al-Shafi said that the Quran and the Sunna of muhammad were the only reliable sources of law.

 

This is incorrect, all four schools state that only the Qur'an & Sunnah are reliable sources. You also say that the schools of thought contradict each other in certain issues. This is true, that is why in Islam, Muslims can follow any of the four Madhabs. They disagree in the minor issues, not in matters of Creed, unlike the Christian schools of thought. They are not sects.

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Okay, true.  The DNA, the cells, our brain's neural capacity is quite amazing and it is an incredible thought to envision such a perfection of nature, whith such divine order.  The problem is, the part which confuses me, is how you recognize that phenomenon and then assign such human characteristics to that same entity.  You say we must obey god and his rules, if not he will punish us.  This is the nature of human beings, of great rulers.  In traditional times, if you disobeyed the ruler or king, you would face punishment.  Except in this case, if you tell people they will face punishment for eternity, it's the best way to engrave fear within them.  This is now out of the domain of how beautiful nature is and relating it to the single principle of the universe.  You can't deny this.  It just doesn't make any sense.  The game of fear, is the game of humans, it is how they have survived by conquering other lands and nations, holding people in captivity.  This is a game of mental captivity, of using fear as a weapon to control people.  Just like the U.S. goverment now, as they have convinced americans that they must give up certain rights and liberties in order to prevent chaos or mass devestation from striking their homeland.  Again, it's a tactic of using fear to contain the masses.

Now with the issue of heaven and hell, again it almost sounds sensible, but one little flaw can undermine the ideology.  Lets take for example a boy who was raised with his parents, mother and father.  Lets say the father is abusive towards the mother, but this is the only father the boy has, the only biological father.  And let's assume the boy is pure in heart, and has suffered, so he should suffer no more.  He is told, accordingly with the teachings of the Quran, and other religious texts, that the acts his father committed will send him down the pathway of eternal hell.  But in a perfect heaven for this boy, in a paradise of eternity, everything should be perfect.  He would want to be reunited with his father and mother, happily one day, in the afterlife.  But how can it be, when his father should pay the consequences for his actions.  That's not part of the boy's paradise, perfect picture, happy ending, etc.  So it is impossible, for an all perfect paradise in the afterlife.

And my other question to you, which is very typical, why is it that you accept Islam and the Quran as the word of god.  What proof has been presented to you which eliminates any doubt in your heart? How can you be so certain of something that's not even remotely within the level of practical thinking.  Religion is not something you can test in a laboratory, you can never uncover the truth from it.  So what makes you so certain?

 

Thanks.

 

peace;

 

I say we must obey Allah, but this is your choice either you obey or not. Disobeyin king or ruler is not the same as disobeying Allah. You may do everything includes disobeyin in this world. But punishment will be afterlife. And second for a tyrant, he has his ambitions, his self-interests etc. we cant think he is fair to all people. But Allah is fair, if you do something for the sake of Allah, He gives its reward to you. No its not the best way to engrave fear w in them. Bec. While I fear Allah , I love Allah either. We cant separate each other. But you think just one side of it. The game of fear??? Conquering other lands ???? what is to do with fear of Allah???

For the example you give: if his dad actually bad person, his boy does not want to be with him even in this world. Y he wants this afterlife?

And second question that you’ve asked me: my family is muslim, but I was not interested in religion before. I did anything , I had girl friends ,you know, we had fun etc. but I was not happy in my life. And one day, I saw a dream. I was reading quran, after I woke up, I did start to read quran. Everytime I read the quran, I saw the answers of the questions that Ive in my mind… that affected me too much…and I am here :D following ayah is very important for me, people can laugh, but this does not make him/her happy...

13/28: Those who believe and whose hearts are set at rest by the remembrance of Allah; now surely by Allah's remembrance are the hearts set at rest.

 

yousuf ur a revert ! sounds good. Such things affect me so much….

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I have no knowledge you say? Was i just babbling those verses? Was I just making up stories about history and muhammad? You can't even admit that Islam was founded upon political rivalry between the caliphs and ali.  You say it's just a "difference in interpretation"..a difference in interpretation about the word of god? I think not! As a result of this difference of interpretation people read the Quran based upon the interpretation of their own school of thought.  Muslims try to cover this up by saying we're all the same under Allah.

I'm not telling you to abandon your faith, we all have our own form of faith.  All i suggested was that isn't it possible Islam is filled with some errors, when studying other philosphies, history, and ideas that existed prior to the birth of Islam, there is a possibility Islam isn't so divine afterall.  How can i have no knowledge on my own religion i was brought up with? For years I listened to stories, verses, translations of the Quran, the life of muhammad, the sunni-shia issue, the caliphs, ahluyl bayte, the reason behind praying 5 times a day, heaven and hell, Allah's mercy and justice, etc.  I don't want to babble on forever.  I was even privileged to be raised with a very moderate and open minded view of Islam, but i'm not even attacking that.

 

peace:

 

?t is interesting I don’t understand y r u claiming rivalry between ali and caliphs. Ali ra was caliph too. The four of them were muslim , how can we call about rivalry?

There was not rivalry , but If it was the case, it was nothing to do w Islam…

And Islam filled with some errors, no I don’t believe in this so…you are trying to find errors, but if i were you, i try to look at different side, to take something from Islam....

people can make some mistakes, this can be in any history. but this does not make the whole religion, or Allah's religion wrong...

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Do you know what agnosticism is? It is about being unsure, not having an answer about the world.  Why am I not an atheist, because I cannot accept the fact that our universe came from nothingess.  I just cannot logically percieve of a higher order, or deity which watches over it's creations, and engages with them on a personal level of prayer, worship, etc.  It's how i define the world around me.  Just like buddhism is a very peaceful religion, but it doesn't make it true and divine.  This is my view of Islam.  My opposition towards god, is not towards Islam by any means.

 

 

peace ,

 

About agnosticism, maybe bec. of waswasa. This seems like your ideas.

And your not atheist bec you see intelligent design all over the universe. ?f He creates all the things, y He does NOT watch over its creations? it is so logical!

Let me give you an example, think a toy maker, he made a train, he knows what the train will do, but he likes to watch it. Likes it. Wants to see what it will do. Nothing wrong with it.

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First of all, the most obvious proof is basic physics.  You claim that it is possible for someone to travel from one location in this world to another in an infinitely small increment of time.  If you've studied dynamics and newtonian physics, you will see how this is very impossible.  The closest thing they've come across in science, in relation to that, is the "wormhole theory".  It states that if there are wormholes, it might be possible to travel from one point in the universe to another in the split of a second.  One of the conditions is that you have to be many times smaller than an atom.  An atom! And you're saying it's possible for humans to do that? If we apply your claim to the equations we have, the equations will not work, they crumble to pieces.

 

As I mentioned before, there were certain testimonies by people such as Al-Kindi which were written around 835 CE which contradict your claims.  Read it                "atheists/Islam/mohammedanism.html"]here[/url].  You can't just delete this information from history.

 

To argue that the Quran is divine and the proof being that no one has been able to re-write something even relatively close to the Quran is like me saying shakespeare must have been a prophet of god for his beautiful literature.  No one was able to even match what shakespeare wrote, that's why he's so famous, because shakespeare's work and poetry was so original and that's what made him so unique.  But is he a prophet of god? What about Caedmon, he was illiterate just like muhammad?

 

?f we are matters, jinns can be anti-matters. This perspective does not contradict any view. But I guess this is off-topic.

About quran is identical w the prophet’s? Allah wants to spread His religion.this is Islam, and y does He let people to go and change the quran. This is His religion and He says "I protect it". It is the last religion though. Y do I doubt about it?

And people may fight. But Islam discourages fitnah. You know quran says "fitnah is worse than killing anybody". You know to kill anybody is forbidden by Islam. But Allah says fitnah (I cant translate the word into english maybe terror is true word) is the worst..

Wormhole theory, huh how did we came this?

About re-write something close to quran, quran is important that lies intelligence in it, not bec. of its beatiful literature…we cant say just it has good written skill that’s y nobody can write like that. this is limited explanation. for example, the psychology of human that it explains, the science in it and more and more. These are so important.

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:D

 

About re-write something close to quran, quran is important that lies intelligence in it, not bec. of its beatiful literature…we cant say just it has good written skill that’s y nobody can write like that. this is limited explanation. for example, the psychology of human that it explains, the science in it and more and more. These are so important.

(Nobody)

 

 

Brother, you are correct when you say the unmatched wisdom contained in the Book of Allah(subhanu wa ta aala) is what is truly miraculous, but at the same time the Qur'an is inimitable from the literary perspective. It is a combination of both that leaves no room for doubt that this is the Word of Allah.

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