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Nile_Salafy

Obama: The Zionist Wolf In Sheep’s Clothing.

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I can't be bothered going into arguments about the naming of ancient states, so I'll ask about Jerusalem - stolen by the Romans, stolen by the Muslims. If conquest does not confer political rights, Jerusalem indisputably belongs to the Jews.

 

Jews them selves say it its not their land

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=ffUTRjQSihk"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=ffUTRjQSihk[/url]

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Some Jews. When you say "Jews" it implies all Jews. I gather that you think that conquest does not confer political rights.

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I can't be bothered going into arguments about the naming of ancient states, so I'll ask about Jerusalem - stolen by the Romans, stolen by the Muslims. If conquest does not confer political rights, Jerusalem indisputably belongs to the Jews.

 

According to international law, Jerusalem and the rest of the occupied territories are unequivocally Palestianian land, and thus we could call it stolen land. However, if we go by the ancient law of conquest that is not so ancient, it is currently Jewish land. The problem with what the Jews did is that they expelled the native inhabitants of the land and ethnic cleansing instead of just taking over the administration like the Romans or the British or the Muslims did. That's why there's a lot of bad blood.

Edited by Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz

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Some Jews. When you say "Jews" it implies all Jews. I gather that you think that conquest does not confer political rights.

by all means ..Jews stayed in the land of Palestine the least amount of time .. since they followed what their belief stated which is that they wont stay in Palestine

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According to international law, Jerusalem and the rest of the occupied territories are unequivocally Palestianian land, and thus we could call it stolen land. However, if we go by the ancient law of conquest that is not so ancient, it is currently Jewish land. The problem with what the Jews did is that they expelled the native inhabitants of the land and ethnic cleansing instead of just taking over the administration like the Romans or the British or the Muslims did. That's why there's a lot of bad blood.

this is an angle I haven't consiered. Do you have proof/links etc? thanks.

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this is an angle I haven't consiered. Do you have proof/links etc? thanks.

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus[/url]

 

Also look for Norman Finkelstein's videos on youtube, or read a Shlomo Ben-Ami's, historian, ex-israeli foreign minister's book. It is a widely known fact that Jews expelled the majority of the Palestinians. The Jews used to have these founding myths that the Palestinians left because the Arab nations told them to clear the route for the conquest of israel and they could return after the conquest but in current scholarship it is acknowledged that an ethnic cleansing and expulsion took place. It's not really a controversial topic. The debate is over whether the ethnic cleansing and expulsion was premeditated - according to Ben-Ami it was premeditated.

 

Even before these founding myths of Arabs making radio calls to warn the Palestinians to clear the way, the israeli leadership knew what was up:

 

I don't understand your optimism. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with israel.

 

That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?

 

They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out.

 

As quoted in The Jewish Paradox : A personal memoir (1978) by Nahum Goldmann (translated by Steve Cox), p. 99.

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_thinkexist(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/quotes/david_ben-gurion/"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_thinkexist(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/quotes/david_ben-gurion/[/url]

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Thanks for all that Younes, I will look into it. I am currently still trying to wade through "Jerusalem in the Quran" at present (and am only on page 11, but I will read it all), but I am learning so much from these discussions. It is good to see things from different angles. We can all have our blinkers on through ignorance or prejeudice and I don't want that. I want to be factualy informed.

 

I don't understand your optimism. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with israel.

I'm not optimistic and I don't believe the Arabs will make peace. I think things will get worse until the Judgement - only then will things become clear. I believe there will only be peace when God is in control; which will be the Day of Judgement.

 

I believe there is a spiritual side to it which the world doesn't see, so I try to take into account that angle also.

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this is an angle I haven't consiered. Do you have proof/links etc? thanks.

 

Salam ..

 

you can also check (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetaqsa(contact admin if its a beneficial link).uk/"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetaqsa(contact admin if its a beneficial link).uk/[/url] :sl:

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Our God is not theirs.

Just picking up on this for a mo - I think that is probably the crux of it in some ways, but most of israel is a secular state. They are unbelievers. Many of them are ungodly and are not even remotely religious. In fact the religious jews say that the Land is God's and that they should not fight for it?

 

I agree with Younes to a certain extent: I don't believe in a "one God fits all" , and so I must admit I tend to see Allah and the Father God I worship as different "Gods" (though I accept Arab Christians refer to God as "Allah" - I do not have a problem with that). The more I read about Allah in the Quran, the more remote Allah seems and is not really recognisable to me. I think this is to do with the parrable that Jesus told about the prodigal son. I do not know what Muslims believe about Jesus's parables, but it is this one:

 

Lu 15:11 ¶ And he said, A certain man had two sons:

12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.

13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.

15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.

16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.

17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. 21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:

24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry."

 

It is this parable which shows the Father-heart of God. Sorry that's a bit off topic, but I was responding to Younes statement.

 

However, secondly I'd like to ask why do Muslims believe Allah allowed the land to be stolen and why did Allah allow the Palestinian Exodus in 1948? Do any of you have a view on this? (I am reading of this a little in "Jerusalem and the Quran" where he seems to suggest it is a strange phenomenon of man's making) - do Muslims believe that Allah is all powerful in the Kingdom's of men? ....or is Allah's sphere only in the spirit world?

 

The Hebrew Scriptures teach me that God rules in the kingdoms of men:

 

"This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men." (Daniel 4:17).

 

Do Muslims have a similar view, or is this one of the corrupted Hebrew texts?

 

(I am just asking questions - not trying to trick anyone, but am genuinely interested. I believe its important we share how we believe things so that we can all understand each other better. However if any of my post is offensive, please moderate it and accept my apologies, but I do not know how to express my questions any other way. Thank you).

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I think there has been a bit of a misunderstanding. The person who says "If I was an Arab leader..." and "Our God is not theirs" is not me! They are not my statements! They are the israeli leadership's in the first prime minister of israel, David Ben-Gurion. Also pay to attention to statements like "We come from israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out." I don't come from israel, nor were the Arabs in israel two thousand years ago, nor do I think Arabs will wipe me out, nor have I stolen any land. You need to re-read that text in its proper context. The reason why I posted the statements made by Ben-Gurion is to show that even the founders of israel knew there was injustice going on right from the start. israel was founded upon terrorism and stolen land. He said that if he was an Arab leader, as in opposed to a Jewish leader who he was, even he wouldn't make terms with israel - due to obvious reasons.

 

On a side note, to be totally honest with you, to me God is not portrayed in the same way in the Hebrew Bible as in the New Testament, and you'll find that the Jews agree with this. Were Moses(pbuh) or Jesus(pbuh) to read the New Testament, they'd find it foreign and blasphemous. As for the passage from the Bible, there is a similar statement of the Prophet(pbuh). Once he asked his companions about a near-by women, whether she'd let her baby thrown into Hell. They replied, of course not. He said that the care of God for His servants is greater than that; that's why God is Ar-Rahman, Ar-Raheem. God is full of kindness towards all His creatures, nor is He unjust . There is one saying of God given through the Prophet(pbuh where God says that if a servant comes to him walking, He will come to him running, and if he comes running, He comes in a manner which is faster than running. I think that you are again projecting your Christian views onto Islam. A lot of Christians believe that Allah is unloving and unforgiving - which is very far from the truth. God said that He would forgive a person if he sincerely repents even if his sins were as tall as mountains. Now, I am just paraphrasing but you get the picture. The Qur'an, the statements of the Prophet(pbuh) and those of scholars are replete with descriptions of God's love, mercy and kindness.

 

As for your question why did God allow the land of Palestine to be stolen, it is to test the Muslims, or to both punish them and test them. Everything is a test. As for the punishment aspect, that cannot be answered since there is no direct Divine proof and Prophethood ended along time ago. A misfortune is not necessarily a sign of Divine displeasure.

 

Muslims believe that God controls all affairs, not just the affairs of men, to the minutest detail. God creates, makes, maintains and rules everything. Nothing happens against His will. "To God belongs the dominion of the Heavens and the Earth", "To God belongs whatever is in the Heavens and the Earth and what is between them and what is beneath the soil", the Qur'an is full of such statements by God. Therefore, the passage from Daniel is in accordance with Islamic thought.

Edited by Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz

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I'm not optimistic and I don't believe the Arabs will make peace. I think things will get worse until the Judgement - only then will things become clear. I believe there will only be peace when God is in control; which will be the Day of Judgement.

 

Actually, the Arabs did make peace with israel. You have to remember that the statements made by Ben-Gurion were made in the 1948-67 era when all israel's neighbours were hostile towards it and waged wars against it. israel is at peace with the Arab countries. Obviously, it isn't at peace with every Arab but the Arabs in the context of Ben-Gurion's statements were Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon, not the Palestinians.

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Thank you - yes i misunderstood - I thought what you wrote was you speaking!

 

The reason why I posted the statements made by Ben-Gurion is to show that even the founders of israel knew there was injustice going on right from the start. israel was founded upon terrorism and stolen land.

.....yes and Britain is not guiltless I believe.

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Obama is a Zionist wolf in sheep's clothing. He is a Zionist puppet so he is an enemy of Islam. He is still attacking and terrorizing Muslim countries while his BIG mouth is trying to fool Muslims in vain. He claims falsely that he wants to befriend Muslims and Muslim countries while his barbaric US forces are busy terrorizing and massacring innocent and defenseless Muslims and violating the basic human rights of Muslims in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq etc. He even supports the barbaric israeli regime of terror to terrorize innocent and defenseless Palestinian people. He doesn't know that he cannot fool all the people all the time.

 

And now the US and Americans are facing financial and economy crisis and many Americans are losing their jobs. I think God is punishing them now for terrorizing the world.

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I can't be bothered going into arguments about the naming of ancient states, so I'll ask about Jerusalem - stolen by the Romans, stolen by the Muslims. If conquest does not confer political rights, Jerusalem indisputably belongs to the Jews.

 

Where were the Jews before Jacob? There were no Jews in Palestine before Jacob so Palestine does not belong to the Jews. The fact is the Jews had stolen Palestine from the ancient people such as Canaanite people and Philistines to build the short-lived israeli kingdom. Then the israeli kingdom was defeated and replaced by other kingdoms throughout history. The fact is Palestinian people have been living in Palestine since the time is immemorial and many of their ancestors such as Canaanite people, Philistines, Christians and Jews etc had converted to Islam so Palestine belongs to Palestinian people. Palestinian people share some identical genes with the ancient people.

 

Zionists are the liars who are trying to corrupt history to fool the world in vain.

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Obama is hardly "in sheep's clothng". His stated policy during the election campaign was that the US would continue to guarantee israel's existence. Why are people only now being upset about this?

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Where were the Jews before Jacob? There were no Jews in Palestine before Jacob so Palestine does not belong to the Jews. The fact is the Jews had stolen Palestine from the ancient people such as Canaanite people and Philistines to build the short-lived israeli kingdom. Then the israeli kingdom was defeated and replaced by other kingdoms throughout history. The fact is Palestinian people have been living in Palestine since the time is immemorial and many of their ancestors such as Canaanite people, Philistines, Christians and Jews etc had converted to Islam so Palestine belongs to Palestinian people. Palestinian people share some identical genes with the ancient people.

 

Zionists are the liars who are trying to corrupt history to fool the world in vain.

 

 

So you, ###### do think that conquest confers political rights.

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Obama is hardly "in sheep's clothng". His stated policy during the election campaign was that the US would continue to guarantee israel's existence. Why are people only now being upset about this?

 

So you believe your Obama is a good guy eh?

 

:sl:

Edited by world_footy_Gunner_laDy

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? I don't know how you get that from me pointing out that his commitment to israel's security is hardly a secret, nor was it during the election campaign, as "in sheep's clothing" implies that it was.

 

I've no idea whether Obama will be a good President or not. It's far too early to tell.

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This is one of the funniest thing I have heard so far about him and I do believe that there is a chance of that happening.

 

"The reason Barack Obama has been elected is because once the US economy collapses, all fingers will be pointing at the black man."

 

:sl:

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I gather that your reading includes not only the nutter David Icke but white supremacist sites.

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I gather that your reading includes not only the nutter David Icke but white supremacist sites.

 

Gather what you want, your assumptions are totally far from truth. No wonder you don't understand half the things David talks about.

 

Anyway, its really up to you whether you want to believe me or not, makes no difference really but the joke was actually said by a black man himself.

 

:sl:

Edited by world_footy_Gunner_laDy

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So you, ###### do think that conquest confers political rights.

 

The fact is Palestine belongs to Palestinian people who are the descendants of the ancient Palestinian people and have been living in Palestine since the time is immemorial. Since Palestine belongs to Palestinian people, Zionists have no right to terrorize, massacre and rob Palestinian people of their land, right, freedom etc. After all, the majority of the Zionists who living in israel are the pseudo-Jews (khazars) so they have no right to claim that Palestine belongs to Zionists. In other word, Zionists are the war criminals who have been violating the International Law, Geneva Convention, the Nuremburg Principle etc to rob Palestinian people of Palestine.

 

Do you eucalypt recognize the right of robber to invade and occupy your home and terrorize and massacre your family? The Zionists are committing the barbaric war crime against Palestinian people.

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Obama is hardly "in sheep's clothng". His stated policy during the election campaign was that the US would continue to guarantee israel's existence. Why are people only now being upset about this?

 

In other word, the US regime will always support the Zionist terrorism and the Zionist genocide of Palestinian people and the Zionist violation of the International Law. Therefore, Obama is a barbaric war criminal just like GW Bush.

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I don't think your conclusion follows from your premises, but that's beside the point - this thread is complaining that Obama is a wolf in sheep's clothing, but that is patently not the case. He spelled out his policy towrds israel during the election campaign.

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I don't think your conclusion follows from your premises, but that's beside the point - this thread is complaining that Obama is a wolf in sheep's clothing, but that is patently not the case. He spelled out his policy towrds israel during the election campaign.

 

He may have made a lot of statements already, but he hasn't unleashed the bad guy inside of him or the wolf side of him yet. So he is still in a sheep's clothing, no doubt about that.

 

:sl:

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