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How Is Islam Different Than Other Religions?

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It's been around 3-4 years since I've been on this website, and although I was an ardent Muslim who tried to refute all claims made by atheists, I have found myself immersed in doubt. I have not completely given up on faith, I am on the precipice of indecision, I am leaning away from Islam more and more everyday because I feel as if it is same as every other religion. Islam does have its discrepancies and differences, explicit monotheism, a different Prophet, a different history, different rituals and practices, but fundamentally, we are the same. The practice of clergy, a complex institution that maintains the faith of the people and gives them their answers to all their questions, the "God", whether 300 different "manifestations" or one Godhead, they are all very similar in nature. I have always been one that ignored the minuscule details, and was more about the big picture. I want someone to show me fundamentally how Islam is different, how is Islam right compared to other religions, and moreover how is better than no religion? I will play devil's advocate for both Atheists supporting my claims and Muslims trying to "revert" me to the best of my ability, or if I find a point powerful, will continue along that track of thought for others to refute. If someone finds that this topic should be in another section let me know, I have forgotten the dynamics of this site. I am hoping I will get a lot of responses because I want all those who have doubt to find the truth, wherever it may be.

 

Salamu Alaikum and thanks!

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Assalamu Alaikum Brother,

 

First of all I am not a scholar. Alhamdullilah I am Muslim and inshallah I will die a muslim. Having these doubts lead to kufir and you do not know when you will die. All religions, in my humble opinion, are branches of the one true religion of Allah (SWT) and that is Islam. Christianity, for most christians anyway, believe Jesus (PBUH) is God, their Lord and Saviour and died for the atonement of Adam's sin, in the Flesh and walked on earth. Judaism, for the most part, believe Ezra (PBUH) is the son of god. Hindus, correct me if I am wrong, believe everything is god so they can stay conscience of God. I do not know much about Buddhishm except that they believe all mankind are equal. All of the other -isms are branches off of these main religions of the world.

 

Since Adam(PBUH), there has only been one message and that is "La ilah ila Allah". As Muslims we believe in all of the Prophets and Messengers sent from Allah. We are the only ones that believe in all of the prophets and their message of "La ilah ila Allah." The Oneness of Allah (SWT) in Islam is everything. There isn't a single religion in the world that can say 'We believe in one God alone'. They have to ascribe someone or compare someone to the Almighty God. No matter what tricks or play on words they choose, no one can say they believe in one God alone, except Muslims. We, as Muslims, are the only ones that truly believe in One God and we do not ascribe partners to him. The Quran has never changed or been modified or altered with. This phenomon frustrates the Shaytan and so he will use different methods to try to get us to go astray.

 

All other faiths are flawed because they are all a contradiction within themselves. Allah (SWT) created one human race, one message, and one way of life. We as Muslims have our difference of opinions and agree and disagree on certain subjects, but not on the core beliefs. Islam is the only true way of life from Allah (SWT) because it is Divine Law, not mans laws. Mans laws always fail. May Allah guide us all to the right path.

 

Salam.

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Wa Alaikum Issalam Brother,

 

First of all brother do you believe that Islam is the culmination of all religions or all religions were Islam but they failed or the devil, the whisperer, the deceitful, caused the people to be mislead?

 

So basically your main argument is that Islam's extreme monotheism, the fact that it has been unchanged for the last 1400 years makes it the ideal religion? The thing that worries me is that the Qur'an tells us that having One God makes you right, do you see what I'm getting at. How can I prove Islam is the right religion by saying that it says its the right religion?

 

 

I have chosen to look outside of scope of being Muslim, one day I thought to myself how you see things if you weren't Muslim. The Qur'an says Do not follow the religions of your forefathers, discover yourself and the truth alone.

 

The Qur'an hasn't been changed to our knowledge, but it is incorrect to say that Muslims agree on core beliefs. I am not here to argue that, do your own research and you'll realize, like all other religions, Islam has been changed, including its core beliefs to make smaller sects that aren't as popular as Sunni Islam.

 

What I liked about your post is that you did identify that all other religions are very similar to Islam, but they all have different opinions of who the Godhead is, and the count of gods. All religions have stated that they are the truth and that disbelief comes from doubt. All describe punishment to those who reject the faith, claim that the source of all Evil is usually the devil, and listening to him will cause your own damnation.

 

Religion has evolved with humanity. I have taken a course in History that dealt with the last 800 years trying to explain the phenomenon that is modernity.The more complex and the larger the population, the more religion changes. Religions to me seem like flavours of the same ice cream. They are all selling the same thing, stability, security, answers, forgiveness, and salvation, and all offer God. (I think we can also agree that God cannot be proven physically, but this discussion isn't questioning His/Her/Its/Their existence.) The difference is that all have different ethnic backgrounds, different languages, but fundamentally have the same core beliefs. Unity, faith, truth, universal justice, brotherhood/family, forgiveness, varying levels of moral rigidity and submissiveness to the divine. Yet all these religions have human institutions to govern their followers! Allah has given us the laws, Divine Laws. which mean that they must work?

 

I think you will realize, like Rousseau, Hobbes, Locke, Voltaire etc, that all belief systems work, if the people follow the laws accurately. You will argue that Islam isn't incorrect, its because the people don't follow. If we all followed Communism's or Democracy's laws they would all work. The only laws in the universe that apparently are "Divine" are the laws of Physics, you cannot break them. I know that science is also flawed, I do not invest my faith in science, but when I have questions, Science gives me comprehensive answers with tangible evidence.

 

 

You might also answer that Islam works the best when implemented, Communism or Democracy are inherently flawed, well theism is the same. Out of the 1.5 billion Muslims on earth, how many are truly practicing? Well you might answer that is up to Allah to decide. Allah has given us the Criterion to tell us what is right and what is wrong, furthermore given us Hadith that is a commentary and an extension to a guidebook for morality. Using this, we can logically deduce who is going to heaven or not, but then again Islam says that only Allah chooses who goes! Like every other religion people must live in paranoia, in fear of retribution and thus must submit themselves to religion, but religion is manifest in the institution, Allah will not come and strike me if I don't pray, that only happened back in the Prophet's days and before, weird eh?

 

All religions that you have mentioned rely on people having faith in them for them to operate. All religions have come to people at a time of weakness where they needed guidance, and given them something to believe in. Islam to the arabs of the Meccan desert and eventually half the world, Christianity to the Jews under roman persecution, Moses to the Jews under Egyptian persecution, the Rastas under persecution, the Lutheran under persecution, the Zoroastrians, etc.

 

Everyone chooses their own chosen people, in Islam it says its open to anyone who will believe, but yet Allah has predetermined everyone's destiny and chosen those who will have faith, but we will live our lives so that were given the choice to make our own mistakes and see why we will rot in oblivion/Hell/Hades etc for eternity.

 

What do you think?

 

Salamu Alaikum

Edited by alim_in_training

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Salaam

 

I get the impression you are trying to run before you can walk. Let's go back, way back, is there anything that you firmly believe it? Is there any belief you have wich is unshakble? You need a good foundation before you build a house? Forget the big picture and why this is happening and that? We all as individuals have core beliefs, do you still have any if so what are they? If we agree on those then we can see if there is anything we can build from there? I mean what is the point of talking of this religion and that if in essence you don't even firmly believe that god exists?

 

Wassalam

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Salamu Alaikum,

 

I'm getting the impression that you have totally deflected all my arguments. Brother the biggest premise for my arguments is that I don't believe. Can you logically bring me to believe using logical arguments and factual evidence? I never said either that I don't believe in God, but rather we cannot prove the existence of a God. You need real materials to build a real foundation brother, you cannot build a house out of imagination. All us individuals have core beliefs? Where did these come from? Have you changed any of these beliefs since they have been taught to you? I think you are not going back far enough.

 

Salamu Alaikum

Edited by alim_in_training

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Salaams peeps,

 

Brother Kab makes a decent point; is there anything you believe in at the moment? It is important for us to know this because you have mentioned many different things in your posts. Addressing all of them will be pointless if, for example, you don’t believe in God at all.

 

How can I prove Islam is the right religion by saying that it says its the right religion?

 

You cannot ‘prove’ Islam is the right religion. If there was such a proof, it would render faith as redundant.

 

All religions have stated that they are the truth and that disbelief comes from doubt. All describe punishment to those who reject the faith, claim that the source of all Evil is usually the devil, and listening to him will cause your own damnation.

 

Do you remember the concept of fitrah in Islam? This innate nature of humans manifests itself by trying to worship Allah swt. This is why, despite the vastly different cultures people have in different parts of the world, all have a concept of a divine being and a religion. This is the fitrah trying to express itself. This is no coincidence that Islam teaches us the reality of fitrah over 1400 years ago, and for this to be manifest in human behaviour all over the world to this day. Religion and searching for Allah swt is a necessary phenomenon for humans. You must have heard the argument by atheists that the reason people create religions, is to answer the questions they cannot answer themselves. They have observed that humans follow religions without any empirical evidence, and so have theorised a psychological tendency in humans which makes them concoct divinity to explain things which cannot be explained. But there is no such proof or evidence for this. Atheists have simply charged humans with this without a second thought. But the fitrah explains this phenomena clearly. And this has been taught by Islam. The reason I mention this is that Islam, above other religions, has coherence that many other religions and philosophies lack. Do not be put off by the presence of other religions, this is natural.

 

Yet all these religions have human institutions to govern their followers! Allah has given us the laws, Divine Laws. which mean that they must work?

 

So? Would you hope for a congregation of Angels to govern the true believers? The laws of Islam do work. But it’s not just about whether they work, it’s about whether this is what Allah swt wants. You may well govern a country well with Hindu laws, but is that what the Lord of the Worlds wants? The argument should not be, ‘If Islam is the one true religion then every other system should by definition fail.’ Success and failure is in the hands of Allah, your obligation is to try and find what He wants from you.

 

Using this, we can logically deduce who is going to heaven or not, but then again Islam says that only Allah chooses who goes! Like every other religion people must live in paranoia, in fear of retribution and thus must submit themselves to religion, but religion is manifest in the institution, Allah will not come and strike me if I don't pray, that only happened back in the Prophet's days and before, weird eh?

 

You can perhaps logically deduce who may or may not go to heaven but then why is this your business? What does it matter to you, and why has this affected your views on religion, that only Allah swt decides who gets His bounty? A Muslim does not live in paranoia. Those who care what Allah swt think are hopeful for His forgiveness and so do not let their sins crush their souls. Those who do not care what Allah swt thinks also do not live in paranoia, because they don’t care. Allah swt may strike you if you don’t pray.

 

Your basic premise seems to be that all religions and ways of life can be interpreted as correct and therefore there is nothing special about Islam. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. What makes Islam special, is what you see when you choose to reflect.

 

With clear proofs and writings; and We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect.

( An-Nahl, Chapter #16, Verse #44)

 

All the realities you have discovered over your studies and contemplations should have strengthened your resolve in Islam, if you had reflected. Everything you’ve come to realise can be explained through Islam, including the emergence of different religions, the failures of humans, and the relationship Allah has with His servants. This cannot be said of other religions and philosophies. And even if they do, do they have the coherence provided by Islam?

 

I also find surprising that you do not see the Qur’an as unique and something which sets Islam apart from all other religions. There is no ‘book’ on this Earth like it.

 

Peace

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Salamu Alaikum,

 

I'm getting the impression that you have totally deflected all my arguments. Brother the biggest premise for my arguments is that I don't believe. Can you logically bring me to believe using logical arguments and factual evidence? I never said either that I don't believe in God, but rather we cannot prove the existence of a God. You need real materials to build a real foundation brother, you cannot build a house out of imagination. All us individuals have core beliefs? Where did these come from? Have you changed any of these beliefs since they have been taught to you? I think you are not going back far enough.

 

Salamu Alaikum

 

:sl:

 

Why do you assume that God should be discovered with factual evidence if He exists? As brother Josh said, this would completely negate the foundation on which Islam exists: To believe in Allah even though you cannot see, hear, or touch Him. Because if we had factual evidence of Allah, then everyone on Earth would believe, whether they wanted to or not.

 

Imagination? You don't know what the guided feel, you don't know enough about guidance to attribute it to an invention of the mind. Guidance is something real and as long as you continue to write everything off as imagination and make-belief, you might never understand what it means.

 

You have two choices at this moment. Either turn to Islam with sincerity and pray that you become guided. Or just give up and hope that you haven't made the biggest mistake in your life. I hope you are willing to open not only your mind, but your heart also so that you will arrive at the truth with certainty.

 

“And say: ‘The truth is from your Lord.’ Then whosoever wills, let him believe; and whosoever wills, let him disbelieve." [18:29]

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Alim_in _training posted:

It's been around 3-4 years since I've been on this website, and although I was an ardent Muslim who tried to refute all claims made by atheists, I have found myself immersed in doubt. I have not completely given up on faith, I am on the precipice of indecision, I am leaning away from Islam more and more everyday because I feel as if it is same as every other religion.

 

Your observation that it (Islam), it is same as every other religion is true. I’ll get back to this in a moment.

 

Firstly, I applaud you on taking the time and the effort to critically examine religious belief. That’s something that most people don’t ever bother to do. Ultimately, wherever your journey of discovery takes you, I hope you will use reason and intellect over emotion and dogma as your vehicle of choice.

 

To address the thread title, it is only a pernicious equivocation that would prevent anyone from refusing to understand that various earlier non-Islamic faiths are similar to Islam. Islam is the label of a comprehensive and all-consuming amalgam of theological traditions (many borrowed from earlier religions), that were codified by a single man; Muhammad.

 

There were many religions that existed prior to Islam; Judaism and Christianity the two most obvious examples. As we know, Mohammed co-opted rituals and traditions ruthlessly from both those earlier faiths. That’s evident in his formulation of Islam. We also have the Greek or Roman pantheons as examples of religions that existed prior to Islam. We see in those entities the morphing of characteristics. Zeus was descended from earlier ancient entities, the Titans. Zeus was the son of Kronos and Rhea. Kronos was himself the child of Ouranos and Gaia.

 

Most all religions have built upon traditions of earlier faiths. Islam is just one more example.

 

Let me pose a question addressing the bigger picture. Of course, fear is a powerful motivator and the instillation of fear certainly exists in the belief system of the proffered Judeo-Christian realm of an afterlife. Other than happenstance, why do you believe that particular tale vs. another? I think I know why. - Keep in mind, that it is only a matter of time, parentage and happenstance that places us here discussing these issues.

 

Consider this scenario: If we were both sitting on one of the Greek isles a few thousand years ago, and a long legged Greek beauty with flowing dark hair… record scratch sound effect!!!… whoa… sorry… got lost in the moment… if we were discussing these various issues a few thousand years ago, we’d be discussing the various attributes of Zeus as one of the various gods extant at that time. It’s just a fact that a few thousand years ago, believers were just as strident in their belief of gods extant at that time as believers are with the god(s) currently in vogue.

 

A simple comment for you to ponder: Let’s suppose that you were born, raised and nurtured in the West, absent the societal and political influences of an Islamic culture. Unquestionably, you would have been exposed to religions other than Islam and with virtual certainty, you would have embraced a religion other than Islam. That’s a simple concept to defend as clearly, there’s ample demonstration of that dynamic. Ones religion is largely a matter of cultural influence. Rarely do believers make an active decision as to the faith they hold. Raise a child in a Christian home and more than likely, that child will embrace Christianity. Raise a child in an environment where Islam is mandated by law, where the social and political constructs are Islamic to the exclusion of other religions and where there is societal exclusion for not embracing Islam and those not embracing the state religion are ostracized, it’s pretty easy to see why the Islamic world is Islamic. Whether you will admit it or not, there clearly is compulsion in religion when the societal structure does not allow competing religions.

 

Had you been raised in the West, you would (more than likely), have entered this board as a very adamant Christian (or Jew, had you been born into a Jewish family), and would be soundly defending you religion of heritage.

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Salaams peeps,

 

To address the thread title, it is only a pernicious equivocation that would prevent anyone from refusing to understand that various earlier non-Islamic faiths are similar to Islam. Islam is the label of a comprehensive and all-consuming amalgam of theological traditions (many borrowed from earlier religions), that were codified by a single man; Muhammad.

 

Nothing has been ‘borrowed’ because Islam is a confirmation and clarification of previous divinely revealed religions.

 

There were many religions that existed prior to Islam; Judaism and Christianity the two most obvious examples. As we know, Mohammed co-opted rituals and traditions ruthlessly from both those earlier faiths.

 

Co-opted? Provide some evidence for this.

 

Most all religions have built upon traditions of earlier faiths. Islam is just one more example.

 

Any religion which builds on other religions but denies any such connection would cast that religion into suspicion. But seeing that Islam teaches that previous religions were revealed by Allah and Islam has simply come to confirm all the correct teachings, means that Islam is not just another example.

 

Consider this scenario: If we were both sitting on one of the Greek isles a few thousand years ago, and a long legged Greek beauty with flowing dark hair… record scratch sound effect!!!… whoa… sorry… got lost in the moment… if we were discussing these various issues a few thousand years ago, we’d be discussing the various attributes of Zeus as one of the various gods extant at that time. It’s just a fact that a few thousand years ago, believers were just as strident in their belief of gods extant at that time as believers are with the god(s) currently in vogue.

 

So? What does this prove?

 

A simple comment for you to ponder: Let’s suppose that you were born, raised and nurtured in the West, absent the societal and political influences of an Islamic culture. Unquestionably, you would have been exposed to religions other than Islam and with virtual certainty, you would have embraced a religion other than Islam. That’s a simple concept to defend as clearly, there’s ample demonstration of that dynamic. Ones religion is largely a matter of cultural influence. Rarely do believers make an active decision as to the faith they hold. Raise a child in a Christian home and more than likely, that child will embrace Christianity. Raise a child in an environment where Islam is mandated by law, where the social and political constructs are Islamic to the exclusion of other religions and where there is societal exclusion for not embracing Islam and those not embracing the state religion are ostracized, it’s pretty easy to see why the Islamic world is Islamic. Whether you will admit it or not, there clearly is compulsion in religion when the societal structure does not allow competing religions.

 

This can be said of any philosophy whatsoever. The child bought up in an atheist background, taught that religion is stupid will not be anything other than an atheist, regardless of how many religions are practised freely in the society. This is not a criticism of religion, but just an observable fact in human behaviour. Nonetheless, people may in most cases make a significant social investment by following a particular way of life, but free-will and reasoning never completely disappears. This is why there are converts to different religions. This is why people make a conscious decision to remain with a religion they were taught to follow by their parents. Nothing you’ve said in this post shows that Islam is just another religion.

 

Peace

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Nothing has been ‘borrowed’ because Islam is a confirmation and clarification of previous divinely revealed religions.

 

You forgot to add "because I say so" for proof of your claims.

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Salaam

 

You forgot to add "because I say so" for proof of your claims.

 

The proof is that this is what our messenger Muhammad s.a.w.s has taught us. An individual who the arabs used to call the trustworthy one even before his prophethood.

 

So what is your proof for your claims, the proof has to be brought by the one who makes the claim.

 

Wassalam

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the proof has to be brought by the one who makes the claim.

 

Where is your proof? The requirement for proof applies to to you, equally.

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Alim in training,

 

I am first surprised by your chosen nickname that is now making this post. I would have expected that alim in training would do just that to answer himself: go seek proper Eelm from proper sources. Why are you subjecting your faith and ultimate destiny to the hands of those who you don[##][/##]'t know in a forum, rather than seeking a good scholar to sit with?

 

Anyway I am not judging you, just questioning your method, which may in part have led you to where you are at the moment, just a thought you may wish to consider.

 

Anyway, let me go through some of your questions and help you with them. I will adress your ultimate question in the end:

 

First of all brother do you believe that Islam is the culmination of all religions or all religions were Islam but they failed or the devil, the whisperer, the deceitful, caused the people to be mislead?

 

It[##][/##]'s a mix of the last two. The religion of God is Islam, sent down to Ibrahim -pbuh- and the first code of law. It was the message of Ibrahim and all his progeny of prophets:

 

[##][/##]"Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: [##][/##]"What will ye worship after me?[##][/##]" They said: [##][/##]"We shall worship Thy Allah and the Allah of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma[##][/##]'il and Isaac,- the one (True) Allah. To Him we bow (in Islam).[##][/##]" [2:133]

 

[##][/##]"We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma[##][/##]'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam).[##][/##]" [3:84]

 

[##][/##]"And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help![##][/##]" [22:78]

 

[##][/##]"When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: [##][/##]"Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah.[##][/##]" Said the disciples: [##][/##]"We are Allah[##][/##]'s helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.[##][/##]" [3:52]

 

So all the [##][/##]"Abrahamic[##][/##]" religions as some theologists like to classify them are all Islam, one and true. It is the people who corrupted them bit by bit in their times, some were changes to rulings here and there (like the jews), or complete refabrication like the christians. The Quran language and perfect delivery is what sets it apart and God[##][/##]'s promise to protect it from corruption stands as a testament today to its truth, as no book in history has ever been untouched in a single letter except the Quran, and it contains its own proofs of authenticity both in mathematical balances by the scores found by statisticians, to the plethora of scientific facts found by examiners across all time, most of which were not even known back then.

 

Other inspired man-made religions have been cultivated through the corruption of the ages and mostly to just create a business, starting from the pharonic and greek gods that need [##][/##]"gifts[##][/##]" and spending from the public to please them, through the scientology church of today which was bluntly built by someone who said [##][/##]"if you wanna make real money, invent your own religion[##][/##]"

 

So basically your main argument is that Islam[##][/##]'s extreme monotheism, the fact that it has been unchanged for the last 1400 years makes it the ideal religion?

 

This corrupt saying is exactly the mindset that man-made religions like people to have, which is [##][/##]"CHOOSE the IDEAL religion for you, that speaks to you![##][/##]". It doesn[##][/##]'t matter if it is a pagan idol worshipping lucky charm style religion based on merchants flondering their wares since the times of Babylon in the guise of small statuettes that give you [##][/##]"favour[##][/##]" till today[##][/##]'s version of Fung Shui pig and bull statues that [##][/##]"redirect wealth and happiness into your world.[##][/##]", or if it is a code of philosophy for [##][/##]"enlightenment[##][/##]" like Confucious and Tao and Budhism, or if it is a complex monotheitic extraction of Jesus[##][/##]'s message like the Baptist chruch.

 

God[##][/##]'s religion is one from the beginning to the end and has been supported not only by the complete proven history of events since Ibrahim through Moses to Mohammed, and now supported by the one unmatched book of authentic relevence to the World then and now untainted by human intervention, but also stands tall against all man made religions in it being without church or money-grubbing clergy.

 

The thing that worries me is that the Qur[##][/##]'an tells us that having One God makes you right, do you see what I[##][/##]'m getting at.

 

Yes because that is the most crucial thing in your existence, to recognize WHO created you. If there were several gods they would fight and existence would be corrupt. If the one God was not completely capable then there will be things that are out of his ability and that requires another God. If the World had no god it will be nothing but hydrogen if even that, fact of physics and thermodynamics that no elements could be formed and if a big bang did occur then everything would stay hydrogen single proton atoms (if even that) floating around in the space as gas slowly diluting. The Qur[##][/##]'an is telling you that you should use your OWN LOGIC to realize how stupid and impossible it is to have anything other than One Single God.

 

but it is incorrect to say that Muslims agree on core beliefs

Existence of deviant groups or corrupted sects or weakness of faith or differences brought by political movements does not take away from the fact you are still charged with relying on a very real one God, praying to him as required, doing good in your life, in order to fulfill your obligation.

 

Religion has evolved with humanity. I have taken a course in History that dealt with the last 800 years trying to explain the phenomenon that is modernity.

 

Not correct. Modernization has been loss of strength of adherence due to lack of knowledge, conquered countries, failed empires, burned books, and lashed and killed societies. The strongest revival and reform movement today is the methodology of Salaf, which literally means following the original method of the prophet and his companions and most muslims of the World are re-embracing their faith properly based on that. Modernization you speak of is again the human based faiths that change according to what[##][/##]'s popular because they want to BE popular and keep stupid people coming in to seek forgiveness at money-grubbing clergy.

 

If we all followed Communism[##][/##]'s or Democracy[##][/##]'s laws they would all work.

In the imagination of their inventors and hopefuls!!! Communism failed miserably and is almost disappearing from our World and Western style democracy is becoming nothing short of a farce today that is leading the countries nowhere!

 

The only laws in the universe that apparently are [##][/##]"Divine[##][/##]" are the laws of Physics, you cannot break them. I know that science is also flawed, I do not invest my faith in science, but when I have questions, Science gives me comprehensive answers with tangible evidence.

 

Good thinking, divine they are because they cannot be [##][/##]"influenced[##][/##]" by people. However every law in the book of physics stands against the possibility of our existence as we are today and the scientists correctly say: [##][/##]"We don[##][/##]'t know how[##][/##]" at all such situations (mentioned two such dilemmas just moments before). So what[##][/##]'s your problem with God[##][/##]'s religion, the one true religion that actually MATCHES scientific evidence and USES it to make its points.

 

but yet Allah has predetermined everyone[##][/##]'s destiny and chosen those who will have faith,

Wrong, fate is predetermined out of knowledge, not force. You are free to make your decisions and you make them and get the consequences. Your decisions however has already been [##][/##]"known[##][/##]" and foreseen along with the consequences and therefore your destiny. To prove that too, the messenger has presented us with so many [##][/##]"snapshots[##][/##]" of the World to come and I think today the hadith of [##][/##]"bare-foot sheep herding arabs would compete in making their buildings taller[##][/##]" stands as a mind-altering statement as you watch Dubai today achieving the highest building in the World and the next THREE competing towers are all in Arabia.

 

Everyone chooses their own chosen people

That is true, and you are choosing yours, and it is because of THAT your destiny is sealed, not because of anything else. If you choose people of knowledge and sit with them and study and spend the effort, you will see all the fallacies in all these silly arguments you are making. If you ignore these things and bring it to a forum and want to [##][/##]"debate[##][/##]" philosophies and Voltaire and democracy might work, then you asked for it and should not claim that anyone else controls your decisions.

 

I want someone to show me fundamentally how Islam is different, how is Islam right compared to other religions, and moreover how is better than no religion?

Your ultimate question. And the answer is simple: Because Islam is the truth, with evidence. Ignore the evidence, and you will earn your destiny.

 

Wassalamu Alaikom

 

P.s. As for resigned's "You forgot to add [##][/##]"because I say so[##][/##]" for proof of your claims"

 

Before you bring this over to my post and statements, allow me to answer you: Your lack of trust in a statement does not refute it, and this whole website and forum stands on Islamic religion which is a belief built on a book, a book that has proven its authenticity through a multitude of methods which if you are not aware of, you may go and learn about. Being ignorant of them and attempting to set a ground rule that Quran is not a valid source is a corrupt approach to start with and one that is old and worn out, but still may be acceptable by other ignorants, so if you still attempt to use it here it will be fruitless and will simply leave you standing there without any further response. If you want to DISPROVE, that is when you have to bring evidence, something that athiests have failed to produce over the past millennium so forgive me for not holding my breath.

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You forgot to add "because I say so" for proof of your claims.

 

That sounds just about right for your entire post also, from the first sentence to the last. You claim:

 

1) Prophet Muhammad "ruthlessly" copied from other religions.

2) Islam was founded by him.

 

But there is an evident lack of proof in your post. Shall we then remove this word (proof) from the discussion? Or would you rather we continue tossing it back and forth?

 

Let’s suppose that you were born, raised and nurtured in the West, absent the societal and political influences of an Islamic culture. Unquestionably, you would have been exposed to religions other than Islam and with virtual certainty, you would have embraced a religion other than Islam. That’s a simple concept to defend as clearly, there’s ample demonstration of that dynamic.

 

Let's suppose that you were born and raised in a barbaric civilization that had absolute disregard for human life and had no ethical or legal laws regarding lying, cheating, hurting fellow humans, animals and the environment, and so on.

 

What are the odds that you will grow up to believe anything beyond what your society has indoctrinated in you? Now, imagine that you have been exposed to an entirely different society that upholds good moral, legal and ethical codes. You study the society as much as you can. And then one day, you kill someone for their money.

 

You will obviously be held responsible by their government for your action, even though in your own land there are no repercussions for such actions.

 

You might have been raised a certain way, but there is no guarantee that it is the right way. In fact, you have been raised in the worst of ways in this scenario.

 

And lastly, you were raised in such a way, but there came a time in your life when you had the opportunity to choose your own road and you chose otherwise. You chose murder over righteousness.

 

It is the same thing with religion. Sure, you were raised in a society that is unIslamic. If you had never heard of Islam before, you would not be held accountable for disbelieving. But you have. And you have contemplated it. And you have chosen to reject it in favor of what your forefathers have taught you to believe. Or you have chosen to reject it because you believe yourself to be a free-thinker, unbound by spirituality or allegience to any faith.

 

Instead of painting all religions with the same brush and arriving at the conclusion that God does not exist and there isn't a single truth to religion, what do you have to lose by dedicating yourself sincerely to discovering the truth? And no, trying to find flaws in everything in order to tell yourself that you have always been right is not sincerity. And neither is demanding factual evidence to prove something that is felt in the mind and heart.

 

Those who desire guidance from Allah will receive it. Those who obstinately hold on to their disbelief and have no desire to be guided, will not be guided. It is as simple as that.

 

And ultimately, you have made your choice as one who has been given the ability to choose freely. No amount of indoctrination is going to prevent you from Islam if you have sincerity, and no amount of indoctrination will lead you out of it.

 

Salam.

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Salamu Alaikum

 

I am surprised at the sudden influx of responses over night and I will try to address as many of topics raised to the best of my ability.

 

My first problem is the lack of consistency brought about in the arguments, there is a common theme but again individual opinion governs the ultimate outcome of why I should retain my faith.

 

I am first surprised by your chosen nickname that is now making this post. I would have expected that alim in training would do just that to answer himself: go seek proper Eelm from proper sources. Why are you subjecting your faith and ultimate destiny to the hands of those who you don't know in a forum, rather than seeking a good scholar to sit with?

 

Well I have initially stated that I will play both sides of the fence because only looking at these things as an impartial witness is the only way to see things correctly. My problem with Eelm brother is that I think only an atheist will agree with me on this; most learned, religious people all have the same answer that you my friends have brought to the table. The difference between religion and philosophy is that the author of a philosophical text does not claim divine righteousness or his text doesn't claim that it is infallible text. You yourselves have come to the conclusion that it is only faith that finally binds you to a religion, the innate emotion that makes your heart weep, that gives your soul rest and your mind sustenance. If you brother do not have enough knowledge to bring a brother Muslim reassurance, are you sure you should be following this religion? If you do not know enough and you rest your fate in those scholars that are dedicated to religion than you have not submitted yourself to the will of Allah. I mean no disrespect, I mean only to make you think.

 

And if you must know brother, I have had immense faith in the past, and that is what scares me.

3:8. "Our Lord!" (they say), "Let not our hearts deviate now after Thou hast guided us, but grant us mercy from Thine own Presence; for Thou art the Grantor of bounties without measure.

 

This is my ultimate Dua'a Brother, but all though I seek guidance, and I seek the truth, I still feel faith fleeting from me like the passengers of a sinking ship.

 

Although your ideas are good Sampharo, fundamentally they are flawed. The reason I left this forum last time was become of the redundancy of arguing with people, and I have discovered that no matter what argument is thrown, we will always derive our own conclusions to defend our beliefs. I have come back in hopes that there will be someone to truly open my eyes, which I can see is wrong to an extent. Seeking help on a forum from Muslims as lost as me will not give me the answer I am looking for. I have talked to Professors, Mullahs, Sheikhs, Muftis and a multitude of others that I have had the privilege to speak with and they brought about all arguments that you have brought. Man is truly predictable, no matter how imaginative people will get they will still maintain the consistency of being inconsistent. I am looking for a pattern, consistency, whether flawed or not using the scientific method. I have a purpose to my inquiry, my hypothesis is left blank. I have a way about finding my truth, asking, looking, researching.

 

[##][/##]"Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: [##][/##]"What will ye worship after me?[##][/##]" They said: [##][/##]"We shall worship Thy Allah and the Allah of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma[##][/##]'il and Isaac,- the one (True) Allah. To Him we bow (in Islam).[##][/##]" [2:133]

 

[##][/##]"We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma[##][/##]'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam).[##][/##]" [3:84]

 

[##][/##]"And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help![##][/##]" [22:78]

 

[##][/##]"When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: [##][/##]"Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah.[##][/##]" Said the disciples: [##][/##]"We are Allah[##][/##]'s helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.[##][/##]" [3:52]

 

Okay so Islam believes that everyone has always been Muslim but only the ones after The Prophet's (PBUH) time are truly righteous. Were Ye witnesses? No but I'll take your word for it. Oh, but you say that only the Abrahamic religions are or were Islam. I see that only people in the last 5000 years needed true guidance, seeing as Abraham was born around 1900 BC to 1861 BC. Therefore Allah has always said that Islam will be incorruptible or only this version of Islam will always be incorruptible? The most recent Prophet (PBUH) is the most profound and the text he has brought is the most unchanged therefore he holds the right religion. You are right, the Qur'an hasn't been changed since we've seen the one in Turkey when all Qur'ans were brought together (Council of Nicaea ?:S) and one was printed. Shi'as will argue that its missing parts that hold Abu Bakr was Prophet, but let's not get into that.

 

I'm not sure if you know, but Muslims aren't really that poor, Mecca is for the Meccans remember that. What a wonder it is that you've mentioned that, if you want to make money, make a religion. Saudi Arabia has kings that hold billions, oh but that's from the Oil Allah has blessed us with. The rivers of Black Gold are either, a trial or tribulation, a blessing, a curse, retribution, etc whatever you are looking at it as will define your definition.

 

This corrupt saying is exactly the mindset that man-made religions like people to have, which is [##][/##]"CHOOSE the IDEAL religion for you, that speaks to you![##][/##]". It doesn[##][/##]'t matter if it is a pagan idol worshipping lucky charm style religion based on merchants flondering their wares since the times of Babylon in the guise of small statuettes that give you [##][/##]"favour[##][/##]" till today[##][/##]'s version of Fung Shui pig and bull statues that [##][/##]"redirect wealth and happiness into your world.[##][/##]", or if it is a code of philosophy for [##][/##]"enlightenment[##][/##]" like Confucious and Tao and Budhism, or if it is a complex monotheitic extraction of Jesus[##][/##]'s message like the Baptist chruch.

 

Brother I think you haven't looked at this passage before you wrote it. If we all have free will, which we use to make the right decisions which will Inshallah lead us to Islam, it will be because Allah has led to us the religion and made our hearts love this faith and see him properly. OR its because Islam speaks to us and we see it as ideal. It doesn't matter that there is an omniscient overlord of the galaxies and universes who can create and destroy universes by saying BE! and it will BE!. An all power deity who created the world is 6 days and then sat on his thrown held up by thousands of angels with wing spans from the skies to the earth, but of course God doesn't sit because he has no form which we have never seen because of the awesomeness of his super powers. The enlightened are those who Allah has removed the blinds off of, the earplugs and the taken the lock off their heart. Their soul is trapped until Allah has released it and granted them guidance. All they have to do is look for it but yet they don't know what they are looking for, they will just have the innate need to want something and who knows maybe Islam will catch them before they hear that Jesus has forgiven them for their sins.

 

Supported by a chain of events that you have neither witnessed nor been apart of. But of course history is made of events we have not seen, which we learn from. We don't actually follow those Greeks, we just think they were very smart, but those Arabs were real smart. The Qur'an brother, if you read Arabic, can be interpreted thousands of ways. This is because it will appeal to anybody who will make a meaning out of it. The Qur'an says look not for secret meanings, take the Qur'an literally. Okay, that creates a problem, but we must understand that the Qur'an is like unofficial poetry. Its the most perfect, included with the 13 Oceans of Poetry so don't call it poetry, its divine, its above anything man could have made, Man has attempted but could not have replicated such a work of art. Not the first time something like this has happened. When a man learns some science he will look at an ayah about how your flesh will return while you are rotting in hell and will think Wow the Qur'an knows about nerve endings in the skin and that is why you feel pain, thanks Qur'an for the reassurance.

 

Yes because that is the most crucial thing in your existence, to recognize WHO created you. If there were several gods they would fight and existence would be corrupt. If the one God was not completely capable then there will be things that are out of his ability and that requires another God. If the World had no god it will be nothing but hydrogen if even that, fact of physics and thermodynamics that no elements could be formed and if a big bang did occur then everything would stay hydrogen single proton atoms (if even that) floating around in the space as gas slowly diluting. The Qur[##][/##]'an is telling you that you should use your OWN LOGIC to realize how stupid and impossible it is to have anything other than One Single God.

 

Of course, all those Gods would fight like the Greek Gods of Olympus. So if five Allahs existed they would fight and argue? What does that tell you? Do you think this idea of the fighting gods is Islamic? Or did we read from previous history and saw that Greek mythology was full of the childish gods of Olympia? All of this knowledge has come from other human beings, including the Islamic ones, and yet a main tenant of Islam is that you must submit because "People are Inherently weak". Already assuming that Allah started the Big Bang, there is an ayah for that too, the Earths were split from the Skies, LIGHTBULB, The Big BANG!

 

Existence of deviant groups or corrupted sects or weakness of faith or differences brought by political movements does not take away from the fact you are still charged with relying on a very real one God, praying to him as required, doing good in your life, in order to fulfill your obligation.

 

Some consistency, very good in deed. Tell me do all Muslims have the same idea of good and the same idea of obligation or should we leave that for the Fatwa makers. If you think Islam is only about praying to a one God and being doing good deeds then I think you missed the point. The Qur'an could have come more as a pamphlet then. With your three statements and all would have been fine. But there are intricacies that everyone ignores because like your answers to my points, you take what you know and make a grand assumption about things. This is how your brain works, it categorizes to store information, once you read enough your brain will make a decision. Religion is more complicated then help your neighbour cross the road, feed the poor and fill donation boxes after praying Asr, Duhr, Isha, Maghrib and Fajr. Some of you will pull out the Hadith that states O Prophet (PBUH) if i did these select deeds will I be guaranteed Heaven? and He says Yes. Yet only Allah knows who will go to Heaven, no human knows what's going on in the hearts of others.

 

Not correct. Modernization has been loss of strength of adherence due to lack of knowledge, conquered countries, failed empires, burned books, and lashed and killed societies. The strongest revival and reform movement today is the methodology of Salaf, which literally means following the original method of the prophet and his companions and most muslims of the World are re-embracing their faith properly based on that. Modernization you speak of is again the human based faiths that change according to what[##][/##]'s popular because they want to BE popular and keep stupid people coming in to seek forgiveness at money-grubbing clergy.

 

Our very own Lutheran revolution, when in doubt go back to basics. You are obviously not fully aware of your own statements. I ask you to look over your post and witness your own contradictions. Look through the scope of History and all of which you have stated is not true. Modernization is bringing power back to the people, it probably began around the time when the people started moving away from the Catholic Church. Its people opening each others eyes to reality. Agree to Disagree

 

Good thinking, divine they are because they cannot be [##][/##]"influenced[##][/##]" by people. However every law in the book of physics stands against the possibility of our existence as we are today and the scientists correctly say: [##][/##]"We don[##][/##]'t know how[##][/##]" at all such situations (mentioned two such dilemmas just moments before). So what[##][/##]'s your problem with God[##][/##]'s religion, the one true religion that actually MATCHES scientific evidence and USES it to make its points.

 

We will use Science to make the Qur'an sound more right, yet the common answer for why there is no depth is because it isn't a book of science. It is your one true religion.

 

Wrong, fate is predetermined out of knowledge, not force. You are free to make your decisions and you make them and get the consequences. Your decisions however has already been [##][/##]"known[##][/##]" and foreseen along with the consequences and therefore your destiny. To prove that too, the messenger has presented us with so many [##][/##]"snapshots[##][/##]" of the World to come and I think today the hadith of [##][/##]"bare-foot sheep herding arabs would compete in making their buildings taller[##][/##]" stands as a mind-altering statement as you watch Dubai today achieving the highest building in the World and the next THREE competing towers are all in Arabia.

 

Semantics are a recurring theme I see. Do you even know what that means, predetermined out of knowledge not force. Allah has stated that the books of destiny are closed, he has told all the pens to write and they wrote destiny for all that has existed. The author knows what will happen in the book but doesn't force it to happen? What does that even mean? You will always trick yourself into believing things and the only difference between me and you is when I'm done tricking myself I will not resort to faith as my last stand. Bare foot Arabs, loincloth wearing Scotsman, armour clad samurais, rice field chinese workers we all had our history in the primitive. Do you really feel these building we should be proud of? I thought a Muslim would say look at how many poor people are fed, look at the strength of the Ummah, I forgot the ayah that states we should have the biggest buildings or best strip clubs in the world. These are the Arabs my friend, Islam is for the Muslims.

 

That is true, and you are choosing yours, and it is because of THAT your destiny is sealed, not because of anything else. If you choose people of knowledge and sit with them and study and spend the effort, you will see all the fallacies in all these silly arguments you are making. If you ignore these things and bring it to a forum and want to [##][/##]"debate[##][/##]" philosophies and Voltaire and democracy might work, then you asked for it and should not claim that anyone else controls your decisions.
]

 

Then I think I am making the first choice I have truly made. If my destiny is sealed and I will rot in hell for eternity for my disbelief I would think that more people would be trying to help save a Muslim brother but whatever as long as your getting in who really cares right? The Prophet (PBUH) cared, but Say : O ye that reject Faith!I worship not that which ye worship,Nor will ye worship that which I worship.And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,Nor will ye worship that which I worship.To you be your Way, and to me mine.

 

I haven't chosen yet, but I think my fate was resigned the second I had questions.

 

Salamu Alaikum

Edited by alim_in_training

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Salamu Alaikum

Then I think I am making the first choice I have truly made. If my destiny is sealed and I will rot in hell for eternity for my disbelief I would think that more people would be trying to help save a Muslim brother but whatever as long as your getting in who really cares right? The Prophet (PBUH) cared, but Say : O ye that reject Faith!I worship not that which ye worship,Nor will ye worship that which I worship.And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,Nor will ye worship that which I worship.To you be your Way, and to me mine.

 

I haven't chosen yet, but I think my fate was resigned the second I had questions.

 

Salamu Alaikum

 

:sl:

 

Allah has written down the destiny of every individual. Because He knows whatsoever has happened and will happen, and nothing occurs without His will. However, it is our choices that lead us down these paths. We are not like sheep on a rope who have no control over where they are headed. If your choice is to reject Allah, and for that, your destiny is already marked as being among the disbelievers. If your choice is to follow Allah, then clearly your destiny, if you lead a life on Islam, will be to be among the believers.

 

Whatever you will decide to do from this moment forth has already been written. But it is still a choice that YOU will make. If you do not understand yet, I will explain in more details.

 

Actually, those words were not prophet Muhammad's. Those were Allah's words. Let me tell you the story behind the revelation of that Surah.

 

One day, prophet Muhammad was approached by some people from the Quraysh and they told him, "O Muhammad, we invite you to worship our gods for a year and in turn, we will worship yours for a year".

 

Allah told prophet Muhammad to respond to them by saying that he would not worship what they worshipped, nor would they worship what he worshipped (because they do not believe).

 

As for helping save you, isn't that what we're all trying to do? We obviously care, or we would have ignored your topic.

 

I was going through your earlier posts and they are a stark contrast to your current ones. I have to wonder what transpired between those days and today. Did you strive in making Dhikr, constantly seeking repentence and fulfilling your religious obligations? Did you occupy yourself with being around atheists, until their misguidance made its way into your heart? Did you ever reach a point when you began to first fill twinges of doubt, but instead of stopping to check yourself and turn to Allah, chose to ignore it?

 

I have no doubt that if I failed myself in my religion, I would be among the misguided. Whoever ignores or turns away from Allah will lose sight of Him, no doubt.

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Instead of painting all religions with the same brush and arriving at the conclusion that God does not exist and there isn't a single truth to religion, what do you have to lose by dedicating yourself sincerely to discovering the truth? And no, trying to find flaws in everything in order to tell yourself that you have always been right is not sincerity. And neither is demanding factual evidence to prove something that is felt in the mind and heart.

 

Those who desire guidance from Allah will receive it. Those who obstinately hold on to their disbelief and have no desire to be guided, will not be guided. It is as simple as that.

 

And ultimately, you have made your choice as one who has been given the ability to choose freely. No amount of indoctrination is going to prevent you from Islam if you have sincerity, and no amount of indoctrination will lead you out of it.

 

Salam.

 

What do I have to lose? If I die tomorrow looking for righteousness then A) I will just rot in earth or B)Allah will understand my plea for truth and perhaps have mercy on my soul

 

Trying to flaws in everything in order to tell you have always been right is not sincerity! Remember that.

 

If something is felt, I don't want it. Feelings don't power engines, don't make universes. Your feelings provide you satisfaction, they provide me doubt. Who is right? The man who feels or the man who thinks? They should merge possibly, but they won't. I feel I am making a mistake by abandoning religion, but its mostly because I don't want to let Allah down, but then again He don't need me. I will just be waqood il nar.

 

If you sincerely believe in something what is wrong with questioning it? If I go somewhere by feeling and I choose to use real directions next time I get there and I arrive somewhere else, what does that tell me? If I can't make it to the same place twice I have a problem. Consistency is the only thing we have Brother. I do not follow anybody's teachings, assigning myself to an ideological or theological ideal is the same thing, people just want to be apart of something.

 

Salam

Edited by alim_in_training

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Allah has written down the destiny of every individual. Because He knows whatsoever has happened and will happen, and nothing occurs without His will. However, it is our choices that lead us down these paths. We are not like sheep on a rope who have no control over where they are headed. If your choice is to reject Allah, and for that, your destiny is already marked as being among the disbelievers. If your choice is to follow Allah, then clearly your destiny, if you lead a life on Islam, will be to be among the believers.

 

Whatever you will decide to do from this moment forth has already been written. But it is still a choice that YOU will make. If you do not understand yet, I will explain in more details.

 

Actually, those words were not prophet Muhammad's. Those were Allah's words. Let me tell you the story behind the revelation of that Surah.

 

One day, prophet Muhammad was approached by some people from the Quraysh and they told him, "O Muhammad, we invite you to worship our gods for a year and in turn, we will worship yours for a year".

 

Allah told prophet Muhammad to respond to them by saying that he would not worship what they worshipped, nor would they worship what he worshipped (because they do not believe).

 

As for helping save you, isn't that what we're all trying to do? We obviously care, or we would have ignored your topic.

 

It's the idea of the square circle. A rabbi is asked by an Atheist can God make square circles. The answer to this is there no such thing as a square circle, God could make anything and you wouldn't know if it was right or wrong. Can God make something he can't lift. That's impossible because that doesn't exist. Can God give you free will but choose your destiny. Impossible there is no such thing as free will. OR there is no such thing as ___. Although I feel most will be confused by this idea but what I mean is again consistency. We can say anything, but what are we truly saying. Allah writes your actions down but lets you act them, I will create a program that executes certain tasks, but I will allow it to do it, that's its choice, or it can crash. How many of you will say we are not computers in response to this. lol

 

I know the story behind it, and I didn't say the Prophet said it, look again friend.

 

I am not speaking arbitrarily, I was responding to the other Brother, keep my words in context and they will make sense.

 

Salam

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I was going through your earlier posts and they are a stark contrast to your current ones. I have to wonder what transpired between those days and today. Did you strive in making Dhikr, constantly seeking repentence and fulfilling your religious obligations? Did you occupy yourself with being around atheists, until their misguidance made its way into your heart? Did you ever reach a point when you began to first fill twinges of doubt, but instead of stopping to check yourself and turn to Allah, chose to ignore it?

 

I began to question. I was surrounded by Muslims but not the best I have seen. I have often wondered have my experiences dictated who I have become? This is why I see things in duality. I am either mislead or strayed OR I have freed my self or have been saved. I do not know for sure. This is why I ask. You will not believe the amount of repentance I have asked for or the amount of prayers I used to offer. I have only met atheists recently and their faith is the same as muslim just from a different source.

 

Salam

Edited by alim_in_training

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What do I have to lose? If I die tomorrow looking for righteousness then A) I will just rot in earth or B)Allah will understand my plea for truth and perhaps have mercy on my soul

 

A merciful God who would pardon the one who lacks the desire to turn to Him, or turning to dust in a grave and ceasing to exist? Are both of these outcomes intend to work in your best favor? What about not being forgiven by Allah and not rotting in the earth?

 

Trying to flaws in everything in order to tell you have always been right is not sincerity! Remember that.

 

Ah, but I'm not the one who's on a forum, looking for the truth. I'm not asking YOU to guide me to or from Islam. My mind is already made up. I gave you Islamic advice concerning sincerity and guidance. If you believe that I can't believe in Allah and have sincerity, that is an unIslamic concept and one that I have no interest in. Because, as I said, I do not wish to be guided to or from Islam. I have moved beyond that stage.

 

But you haven't. And I was giving you advice on how to move beyond it. If you do not take my advice, it's up to you. But don't try to turn the tables on me.

 

If something is felt, I don't want it. Feelings don't power engines, don't make universes.

 

Are we going to base religion on wants? "I want this" "I want that" "I don't like this because I don't want it". Feelings don't power engines? Don't make universes? No, they create societies. They dictate to us how to live our lives, how to interact with one another.

 

Let me ask you something. Back when you believed in Allah with certainty, would you have trivialized your faith as nothing more than "feeling"? And be honest, don't say yes for the sake of winning an online argument. Think back to those days and what you felt then. Were you more certain at the time in who you were and what you existed for, than you are now as someone on the brink of atheism?

 

Your feelings provide you satisfaction, they provide me doubt.

 

Your entire doubt is based on feelings. If you didn't want feelings, as you claim, you wouldn't want your doubt to begin with. Nor would you be feeding it like a man tossing wood into a flaming inferno.

 

The man who feels or the man who thinks?

 

Note that I never used "feeling" to describe faith beyond comparing it to something that is tangible.

 

And to expand on a previous point, it would be like saying "I don't want to believe that I feel pain, because I don't want to 'feel'". Is pain real? Yes. Is sensation real? Yes. Can I prove to you that I feel an itch? No. But does that mean my "feeling" is not something strong enough to base on whether or not the itch actually exists? I have a feeling I know what your response to this will be, so I will wait until then. Because believe me, I've thought this through beyond what I've already said.

 

Faith is more than feeling, but it is FELT. It is not seen, it is not heard. It is not tasted. And that is the context in which I was describing it.

 

I could argue all kinds of crazy theories and concepts, because it is easy to do so. So shall we continue to spin circles around each other? Because remember, circles go nowhere.

 

If you sincerely believe in something what is wrong with questioning it?

 

You are the epitome of everything that could go wrong with questioning what you believed sincerely. Your doubts and your suspicions are a product of your questioning. And secondly, "sincere questioning" is an oxymoron. You cannot pursue something sincerely when you have doubts about its legitimacy. You either discard the sincere part, or you discard the questioning part.

 

If I go somewhere by feeling and I choose to use real directions next time I get there and I arrive somewhere else, what does that tell me?

 

Then you would be like a man trying to drive a nail into wood with a piece of paper. What is paper used for? Writing. What is a hammer used for? Hitting nails. You cannot substitute one for the other, in the same way you cannot substitute real directions for intuition when trying to reach a destination.

 

But neither can you write on a hammer. For example, as I've repeatedly stated, what is morality? Is it something that we can prove? Are there directions for morality? Can you prove that killing is wrong? Can you prove that stealing is wrong? And yet, these things are deeply ingrained into our societies. In fact, they are the major components of society, far more important than building engines and creating universes.

 

And yet, do you see anyone trivilizing "feelings" that lead to morality or ethics? So why are people willing to admit that some things are important to us even though they cannot be factually proven, but are utterly denying any thought of God instilling guidance in people's hearts when they fulfill the conditions that He has named?

 

Consistency is the only thing we have Brother.

 

What you consider consistency, I consider taking one step forward and ten in the opposite direction. And secondly, I'm a sister.

 

I do not follow anybody's teachings, assigning myself to an ideological or theological ideal is the same thing, people just want to be apart of something.

 

You shouldn't speak on behalf of people. You do not know what I want, or what any Muslim on this planet wants. If wanting to be a part of something was the only reason I believed in Allah, I could just as easily be at nightclub, drinking and dancing the night away with people who wish to lose themselves in this world, just so that I could be a part of something.

 

I am either mislead or strayed OR I have freed my self or have been saved. I do not know for sure. This is why I ask.

 

But are you really asking? Or are you stating your argument and going through your opponent's argument with the sole intention of refuting it? Where I'm from, when we wish to learn something we ask questions and follow those questions with more questions to understand it better.

 

The only thing I've seen from you so far is rebuttals and assertions. You don't seem to be in doubt. You don't seem to be stuck in the middle. You seem to have made up your mind that Allah doesn't exist, that Islam is just another made-up religion, and the only thing left for you to do here is to validate your disbelief and disprove anything that goes against your thought process.

 

At least, that's how it appears to me and I do hope that I am wrong.

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Assalamu alaikum brother Alim in training, I too remember your previous posts and am a bit preplexed as to what happened? It only proves to me that none of us are safe from the whispers of the Shaiytaan. the fact that you are concerned about your situation and are trying to clear up your doubts is a positive sign that Allah loves you enough to make you wonder what happened????

 

I don't see myself trying to explain to you, because my knowledge is very limited, your peace of mind has to come from within yourself, and i am sure INSHAALLAH, you will attain that with the HELP OF Allah AND Allah ALONE.

 

I am no Scholar of Deen or any or any academic profession, but a simple Muslim woman scared for my own emaan and keep watch on it and keep making duaa to Allah to keep me in the bounds of Faith in Allah and if ever Allah forbid I seem to be moving away, I pray Allah that will guide me back on the right path, show Mercy towards me and Forgive me.

 

I have a link for you, please check it out, it talks of Free will and Destiny in the light of Qur'aan and Hadith. At the bottom of each page you will see next please click on it and read all the 5 or 6 pages, it will pen up your heart and show you how Merciful and Loving Allah is. I make duaa to Allah that Allah will keep us all on the Right path now and always, and not let us be misguided after he has given us Emaan.

 

Please read it, You will be in my duaas and please remember me in your duaas.

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_islambyquestions(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/destiny/meaning.htm"]DESTINY AND FREE WILL:[/url]

 

Assalamu alaikum.

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:sl:

 

I'll be honest when I say that I used to love such topics in the past, but I've long since become very jaded and cynical. I have no desire to continue to muddle through "I think" and "You think" for the next week, so let's just get to the crux of the matter.

 

If you need help from us, we are willing to give it to you. There have been many people in your position in the past, and we have always showered them with advice. Some have even benefitted from such advice. We are willing to do the same for you. If there is any part of you that thinks you are heading down a dangerous path and wants you to turn back to Islam, then tell us. We will focus on that instead.

 

If you don't need our help, then what is your goal? You might as well sit alone in a corner and just allow these negative thoughts to wash over you for a few hours, for all of the help we could give you then. Personally, I don't want to waste my time and yours if you've already made up your mind. So I ask you, have you reached a point where you don't believe in Islam at all?

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Salamu Alaikum

 

Sister I am not one for personal attacks, but please do watch your own emotions in this matter. You are very self-righteous and I am only seeking guidance, if my questioning bothers you I would kindly ask you to refrain from reading my posts.

 

A merciful God who would pardon the one who lacks the desire to turn to Him, or turning to dust in a grave and ceasing to exist? Are both of these outcomes intend to work in your best favor? What about not being forgiven by Allah and not rotting in the earth?

 

Again you make assumptions based on the manner of my questioning. If I lacked the desire Sister, I would not waste a minute of my valuable time considering what I am going to do with the rest of my life, I have repeatedly stated I will portray a certain perspective when refuting these ideas. If you have resigned yourself to a certain ideology for the rest of your life I just hope that you are right in your beliefs, people like me are only seeking more, whether or not that is right or wrong. I cannot be force fed ideas for the rest of my life, I have always been open minded and will continue so, I argue your statements in hopes of shedding light on my type of dilemma. I thank those that have made Dua'a for me, and hope that they will be answered if relevant, but if not, the fact that another human being seeks for my well being gives me hope for a better humanity. If I am not forgiven by Allah, I hope while drinking from Kauthar and reclining in your immense gardens laden with everlasting fruit, you will not feel the same self righteousness at my misery, because Sister, this is how serious this matter is.

 

Ah, but I'm not the one who's on a forum, looking for the truth. I'm not asking YOU to guide me to or from Islam. My mind is already made up. I gave you Islamic advice concerning sincerity and guidance. If you believe that I can't believe in Allah and have sincerity, that is an unIslamic concept and one that I have no interest in. Because, as I said, I do not wish to be guided to or from Islam. I have moved beyond that stage.

 

But you haven't. And I was giving you advice on how to move beyond it. If you do not take my advice, it's up to you. But don't try to turn the tables on me.

 

Sister I am questioning OUR beliefs, if you choose to bring about your ideas in order for your credibility as a resource to be worth anything I have to evaluate the consistency of your arguments. If you have never gone through a crisis of faith I hope sincerely that you will so that your faith will return multiplied in strength, or annihilated if this is what is better for you. "One I have no interest in", consistency sister, consistency, you say one thing and then do the other.

 

Are we going to base religion on wants? "I want this" "I want that" "I don't like this because I don't want it". Feelings don't power engines? Don't make universes? No, they create societies. They dictate to us how to live our lives, how to interact with one another.

 

Let me ask you something. Back when you believed in Allah with certainty, would you have trivialized your faith as nothing more than "feeling"? And be honest, don't say yes for the sake of winning an online argument. Think back to those days and what you felt then. Were you more certain at the time in who you were and what you existed for, than you are now as someone on the brink of atheism?

 

I want this, I want that, I'm interested in this, I'm not interested in that. Who are we but what we want? You want salvation so you seek Allah, you want Allah so you seek Allah, you want to be right, you want heaven, you want you want you want! Yet when I want answers I am a heretic? When I want truth that could possibly be different than what you were raised to believe or led to believe I am a follower of Shaydan? If I wanted to win this online argument I would have left, your own arguments destroy themselves. I knew I was right back then, I felt correct, and truthfully everything you have all stated in this thread were my arguments for why Islam was right. Now they are all irrelevant because when you look beyond being religious you see things differently and that's what astounds me. The one thing atheists try to tell people of faith is that you all believe all your religions are right because you are apart of them! I am not on the brink of Atheism, I am on the brink of enlightenment, beauty is in the eye of the beholder right?

 

Your entire doubt is based on feelings. If you didn't want feelings, as you claim, you wouldn't want your doubt to begin with. Nor would you be feeding it like a man tossing wood into a flaming inferno.

 

Father how come this idol made up of dates is considered my God, it doesn't make sense to me father that I could worship this. Do not feed your doubts son, if you feel something is wrong with that keep it to yourself, you are only fueling your own destruction. Do you think those that doubt would like to live in the darkness? Someone has to do it, someone has to decide to swim upstream to lay eggs and die so we can progress. I do not think of myself as hero, I am not "better" because I question, but I am better off. If you see the dynamics of the world today you see how people have made their own chains.

 

Note that I never used "feeling" to describe faith beyond comparing it to something that is tangible.

 

And to expand on a previous point, it would be like saying "I don't want to believe that I feel pain, because I don't want to 'feel'". Is pain real? Yes. Is sensation real? Yes. Can I prove to you that I feel an itch? No. But does that mean my "feeling" is not something strong enough to base on whether or not the itch actually exists? I have a feeling I know what your response to this will be, so I will wait until then. Because believe me, I've thought this through beyond what I've already said.

 

Faith is more than feeling, but it is FELT. It is not seen, it is not heard. It is not tasted. And that is the context in which I was describing it.

 

I could argue all kinds of crazy theories and concepts, because it is easy to do so. So shall we continue to spin circles around each other? Because remember, circles go nowhere.

 

Actually, you can prove these things, the feeling which you are talking about is tangible. These are electric impulses between neurons that cause this sensation. Feeling can also be identified, it flares up different parts of the brain. Faith is felt, does it mean its real? I don't know, a man with schizophrenia will see and feel things, does it mean they are there, the brain can trick itself. The brain works on processes, human belief though, they work on human thought, and you can easily trick that. It's not about what you think, but how you think about it. Your linear mentality of the universe is purely Islamic, when history shows that it is completely circular, a cycle of life.

 

Then you would be like a man trying to drive a nail into wood with a piece of paper. What is paper used for? Writing. What is a hammer used for? Hitting nails. You cannot substitute one for the other, in the same way you cannot substitute real directions for intuition when trying to reach a destination.

 

But neither can you write on a hammer. For example, as I've repeatedly stated, what is morality? Is it something that we can prove? Are there directions for morality? Can you prove that killing is wrong? Can you prove that stealing is wrong? And yet, these things are deeply ingrained into our societies. In fact, they are the major components of society, far more important than building engines and creating universes.

 

And yet, do you see anyone trivializing "feelings" that lead to morality or ethics? So why are people willing to admit that some things are important to us even though they cannot be factually proven, but are utterly denying any thought of God instilling guidance in people's hearts when they fulfill the conditions that He has named?

 

We will not agree on this point but I am making a point out of this. I have chosen to look for the truth based on what I can prove, you have attained it through what you have been taught, what you feel, what you like, what is easy, what sounds the best. Exactly my point, you start to discuss morality. Again no proof that it is correct. In fact some will use evolution to state we should be competing against each other, survival of the fittest. Some will state the prisoner's dilemma as a reason as to why we have morality. You will say because it is ingrained in human society it is right. Good one, I think I should stop arguing entirely, the fact that so many of us believe it to be true is the ultimate proof of its validity. Human society is far from important, well maybe to us. Even Allah sees all of us as small as a mosquito's wing, we are but electrons of an atom. Human society is a joke, we have a few basic moral principles but the rest are up to majority. For example, I would need 4 of you sister to put me away in court based on your "Society" should I commit a crime, but only one brother. Sister's are too emotional, they can't be judges and make good decisions, maybe they should ban women from this forum for their arguments are irrelevant or make them into accounts where 4 sisters have to sign up to make one. I know that this argument is a little off topic and might be irrelevant to the context which it is used here, but I want it to be noted that the values you hold now are not necessarily and completely Islamic.

 

You are the epitome of everything that could go wrong with questioning what you believed sincerely. Your doubts and your suspicions are a product of your questioning. And secondly, "sincere questioning" is an oxymoron. You cannot pursue something sincerely when you have doubts about its legitimacy. You either discard the sincere part, or you discard the questioning part.

 

When I entered this forum I was 15 years of age, I was invited to dozens of other sites to help argue against other atheists because of my conviction and ability to see both sides but defend Islam powerfully. Islam doesn't necessarily need defending, I mean defending allegations against it. I am now 18 years old and I did not initially question my beliefs, my faith fleeted from me, because more and more, this religion made no sense to me. I still went to the Masjid and prayed and fasted etc, eventually it wasn't enough, the more I learned about this world, the less I believed. Sincere questioning is an oxymoron for religion. You cannot be sincere of your religion and question it, and you should be very afraid of that. You can be a sincere truth seeker questioning the world to find the truth. If your feelings, logic, heart, soul, mind powers, zen, karma, chakra, w/e brings you back to Islam that what's the fuss, you're faith is reassured.

 

 

You shouldn't speak on behalf of people. You do not know what I want, or what any Muslim on this planet wants. If wanting to be a part of something was the only reason I believed in Allah, I could just as easily be at nightclub, drinking and dancing the night away with people who wish to lose themselves in this world, just so that I could be a part of something.

 

You're right, and I apologize, I have in fact contradicted my own ethics. Generalizations and superficial assumptions are what lead you to being trapped in a mentality in the first place. Maybe to clarify, what I meant was people are prone to ideas that bring about assurance and stability for their questions, plus a mixture of upbringing brings about the specific faith you will subscribe to. If you feel this is not probable read the book Caveman Logic, by a University of Guelph Professor who is the department head of psychology. If it's the fact that he's a westerner that causes you to think that he's his ideas are flawed, I'll tell you he's a Muslim. I'll be lying but if that causes more open mindedness then you should consider what constitutes the truth for you. I apologize for calling you brother.

 

But are you really asking? Or are you stating your argument and going through your opponent's argument with the sole intention of refuting it? Where I'm from, when we wish to learn something we ask questions and follow those questions with more questions to understand it better.

 

The only thing I've seen from you so far is rebuttals and assertions. You don't seem to be in doubt. You don't seem to be stuck in the middle. You seem to have made up your mind that Allah doesn't exist, that Islam is just another made-up religion, and the only thing left for you to do here is to validate your disbelief and disprove anything that goes against your thought process.

 

At least, that's how it appears to me and I do hope that I am wrong.

 

Yes I do have the sole intention of refuting them, I stated that initially, except if I stumble upon something that I find I have nothing to say against. If I have evidence to refute something I will,. My initial statement when someone asked me if there was anything wrong factually with Qur'an that I could prove would you disbelieve, I said yes, what would you have said?

 

Salamu Alaikum

 

P.S. In reference to your most recent post, I am not looking for advice, such as prayers, special herbs or medicines, rituals to regain my faith. Thinking like a Muslim will make you Islamic, but isn't exactly the best advice. Praying to Allah and making Dua'a to regain my faith IN Allah? That logic sounds a little bit flawed to me

Edited by alim_in_training

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Assalamu alaikum brother alim in training, did you check out the link I posted?

 

Salaams, umAhmad.

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:sl:

 

If there is any emotion that I've displayed, it's passion concerning Islam. Perhaps my straightforward manner of writing has bothered you and it appears to you as though I'm making personal attacks against you, in which case I apologize that you have reason to believe so. Because that has never been my intention. If it bothers you so much that you would prefer I stop replying to you, by all means state so. I would leave you in peace.

 

If you have desire about finding the truth, then that's great for you. I am genuinely happy to hear that. I read your first post before replying to this topic and I know exactly what you have stated. However, a single paragraph is too small to summarize an entire subject, hence why I've asked more questions about where your mindset is and where you stand.

 

Speaking of things you said, you stated that you would disprove theists and atheists alike, and yet you haven't touched Resigned's post. Is that because...you agree with everything he has said? I'm simply curious.

 

SubhanAllah, how could I ever gloat over your misery if there ever comes a time that I'm in Jannah and you in Hellfire (which is a big IF because who knows where either of us will end up)? I pray that Allah will protect me from arrogance, because anyone with a hint of it will never smell Paradise. I also can't begin to name the number of people who fell from grace because of their arrogance and self-righteousness.

 

I'm not trying to tell you about Islam because I'm self-righteous. It is because I believe that Islam is the right path, and I want you to taste what I have tasted. I want you to have that sense of peace and assuredness in your heart.

 

If you asked me, at this moment, to make a Dua for you, I would not hesitate to do so. The very fact that you have left (?) Islam fills me with sadness, not disgust, resentment or any selfish emotions.

 

If you have never gone through a crisis of faith I hope sincerely that you will so that your faith will return multiplied in strength, or annihilated if this is what is better for you.

 

I have, though not to the point of leaving Islam. I grew up believing because I was taught to believe. It wasn't until I was in my late teens, just four or five years ago, that I began to evaluate my own heart and I developed many doubts. But here is where you and I are different. I knew that if I ever left Islam, it would be to become an atheist. Because I knew enough about other religions to dismiss them as nothing but man's invention. A majority made no sense, did not follow a logical pattern, did not seem like something I could ever submit myself to. Either Islam was the right religion, or there was no religion. And years later, here I am.

 

Though you shouldn't wish misfortune on a person. It would be as odd as if someone had told me "If you have never been in a car accident, I hope sincerely that you will so that your fervor for life will be multiplied in strength or you die, whichever is better for you." It sounds crazy, but no more than what you're saying, in my eyes. There is nothing good about losing my connection with the one who created me.

 

"One I have no interest in", consistency sister, consistency, you say one thing and then do the other.

 

Perhaps there would be an inconsistency if I said "Everyone should take the time to listen to the advice of others" and then rejected your own. But no. I have never made such a claim. Instead, I've adviced you in the way of Islam, in the same way that I advice myself everyday.

 

Islam is the consistency that I live upon. You see fallacies where I do not, apparently.

 

I want this, I want that, I'm interested in this, I'm not interested in that. Who are we but what we want?

 

Our lives are not shaped by personal wants. Otherwise, a person who hates their job would not get up every morning to go to work.

 

Yet when I want answers I am a heretic?

 

I don't believe the word has ever been used in application to either you or anyone. The only thing I've done is to tell you that if you want to discover Islam, you will have to let go of your doubts and take a plunge. And no, it won't kill you to do so. Either you will discover faith or you won't. But standing on the bridge and debating whether or not it's safe to jump isn't going to get anything accomplished, when you know well enough that you have nothing to lose by jumping.

 

I am not on the brink of Atheism, I am on the brink of enlightenment, beauty is in the eye of the beholder right?

 

So you now believe that atheism is enlightenment?

 

Father how come this idol made up of dates is considered my God, it doesn't make sense to me father that I could worship this. Do not feed your doubts son, if you feel something is wrong with that keep it to yourself, you are only fueling your own destruction.

 

"Father how come we're not supposed to kill people?" "Don't question what you've been taught and do not feed your doubts".

 

Just because you've been brought up to believe something does not automatically make it a bad thing.

 

Someone has to do it, someone has to decide to swim upstream to lay eggs and die so we can progress.

 

Actually, the proper analogy is that someone has to swim upstream to lay eggs in the midst of sharks. I'm not of the opinion that these eggs or seeds of doubt that one decides to lay are actually "good" for generations to come.

 

Actually, you can prove these things, the feeling which you are talking about is tangible. These are electric impulses between neurons that cause this sensation.

 

The last person I said this to replied in the same way, which is why I was expecting this.

 

Tell me, when was the last time someone said to you "I feel pain in my back" and you responded with "I require factual evidence, let's head off to the Neurologist and verify the authenticity of what you claim?"

 

Pain has existed long before Science discovered cells, let alone the types of cells and the different jobs they have in the human body. People believed in the existence of pain when they hadn't yet discovered neurons and nerve endings.

 

When you were young and you believed that pain was real, was your belief founded on something unreal? For all of the people since the dawn of time who believed that pain was real but could not explain how it occurs, were they wrong? Did they merely "think" that they felt pain? Is something supposed to be tangible for it to become real? If half the population had been born without pain receptors, would that make everyone else who understands what pain is, wrong?

 

Obviously not. YOU will know clearly someday what guidance is and how it feels to believe. You will know that it is reality, and not something made up. You will know either in this life, or the next. Until then, don't write it off as being something that does not exist.

 

Exactly my point, you start to discuss morality. Again no proof that it is correct.

 

I sense a slippery slope.

 

So if there is no proof that morality is correct, when can I expect to see you on the news, wanted for murder? This is a joke by the way. But really. I would expect that next, you will be arguing that you don't believe that murder is either right or wrong, that stealing is neither right nor wrong, and so on.

 

You've mentioned consistency. Are you consistent throughout?

 

For example, I would need 4 of you sister to put me away in court based on your "Society" should I commit a crime, but only one brother. Sister's are too emotional, they can't be judges and make good decisions, maybe they should ban women from this forum for their arguments are irrelevant or make them into accounts where 4 sisters have to sign up to make one.

 

You've been arguing for logic and facts this entire time, but this is a very emotion driven point. You mentioned before that certain things can be proven tangibly concerning the human body. Can it be proven that men and women are physiologically and psychologically different? Most assuredly. If they are different in genetic makeup and biological functions, how can they be the same in society?

 

Actually, I'm playing the devil's advocate, because I don't believe the above quote. Women cannot be judges because men were chosen by God as the leaders and protectors of women. A woman cannot fulfill the role of a man when such a role was specifically assigned to the male gender. That is the reason why, it has nothing to do with emotions.

 

And lastly, are you really making an argument of morality or ethics here? I thought you don't believe any of it is correct? So, it would be rather odd of you to think that any aspect of morality is superior to another, when you disbelieve in all of it.

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