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A Refutation Of Atheism

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Our tagline is that we live we die right ?

  • we're created ? wouldnt a creation be perfect and never dies ? unless its for a reason .... ? or is it we just turned out as a dejavu coincidence without a thing just from paradox equations of air air air air air :S .....
  • u living today , what about if u lived the times of the miracles !?!? wouldnt u go deep in faith ? or choose to be like (pharoan)? or you pass by these stories as its not real :S ... ? what about pharoan body found as said in the quran and proof for the world? is it some kind of trick ? all the scientists who have seen it became muslims check the records of reverts in egypt what can we say about that?
  • Tomorrow 1000 babies will be born having their own opinions like any of us ( but logically is 1 GOD logical ? ) or no GOD?!?!?
  • (opinions today through the observation of this world of opinions is going into illusions ? ) are you bordering in and out to the same perspective and not indulging any facts but rephrasing them in complex illusions of no meaning?? i can rephrase this for the new critical thinkers ... :sl: just reply in a PM the post isnt complex ponder for a second..
  • from the door of advices i wanna say that is, corrupting this world ? / or cure ? / upon the losers ? / or winners??? we/you decide ? but can you decide it with optimal results ? or do we need a manual to help us with all the puzzles of equations in this world ???!?, please present the true manual of goodness to this world that overseeds allsectors of how to live in this world ...
  • infinite brain sequence ? any judge can alienate judgment to any1, but what is the final verdict of these maneuvers of merrygoroundrides? is your life good :D or u try as best as u can to resist and make it good without a real satisfaction :D...

ill look back to my old posts where ive posted a video of Atheists standing and doing shahada their faces turned from black sad crying to happy and light , the comments in youtube said its a photoshop trick but you can judge , if ur back bone hair stands then dont say dejavu but say Allaho Akbar :j: ... Allaho Akbar!!!

 

the old posts are in archives im waiting for admin's replies as soon as i get my links il post them :sl:

 

i just want to be in benefit , without the applause =) so i dont turn bad 1 day.... the applause is for every1 in heaven when we succeed to success :no:

 

I Ask Allah to guide us All to the straight path and never look back to our nafs which commands us to be living in our status ourgodly feeling of illusion ... the nafs is you the choice is in ur hand of how to make ur nafs , if its bad only Allah (SWT) can diminish everything from u and make ur soul back to crystal clean , even the silliest joke a tickle will make u laugh because bad souls are numb from reality... we are not bad nor u , but we need to help each other if u join the ship you me and every1 must make it sail properly and not be living with diffrent boats sailing in diffrent direcitons..

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PropellerAds
Like I said, you are free to call it what you like. The point is that it must be uncaused to avoid the absurdity of an infinite regress.

 

Sorry, I still don't see that infinite anything is absurd. However, you haven't addressed my main question: Why do you insist that this uncaused cause is a being?

 

I have spoken to many atheists who maintain that since there is no evidence that matter can be created or detroyed, the universe must be infinite.

 

Then you must be speaking to atheists who are as ignorant of current science as the Adnan Oktarites.

 

Seeing that this thread is concerned with refuting atheism, I believe I have shown that claiming there is no God is irrational and has nothing to support it. It has been refuted.

Peace

 

You have attempted to show that there must be an uncaused cause, but you have not shown that this uncaused cause has any of the attributes of a god. You haven't even adressed the possiblilty that this uncaused cause disappeared after causing the universe.

 

That aside, as I said earlier, atheism is the default poition in the absence of evidence, just like apixieism is the default position in the absence of evidence.

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Indeed it has. My aim, in responding to oooo's original post in favour of atheism was to show to the existence of Allah/God can not be disproven. Science does not disprove Him, nor does philosophy. As has been borne out in this thread, and elucidated by josh0335, the best atheism can do is say 'we can not know what the first cause of the universe was'. It can not say, 'the first cause of the universe was not God'.

 

In other words, 'strong atheism' fails unless it can show that there must be no God. Clearly, it can not do this.

 

Ah. Strong atheism.

 

I have no idea whether I'm technically a weak atheist or an agnostic - the question doesn't arise very often in the real world. However I choose to live my life as if there were no supernatural beings, because there is no evidence for supernatural beings. I strongly believe that this is the healthiest way for human to live.

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so its about the power of knowledge within ur self holding it firm , i know ur exhausted and tired and sad :j: , its ok brother its not a fight of who wins or dies , its about a boost , dont u like to be boosted? in life ? do u like to live better? =) follow the instructions in the quran and then u will be able to observe outside your limits . and ponder and understand things more correctly..

 

please observe in the earlier post i posted , ive had help alhumdulillah and i really wish you be safe and healthy soon , because badness who likes it ? i know the thing that makes u stop wanting to be good is that u think a viseversa statement to urself that aah i was bad , but thats wrong u should understand i was bad :sl: alhumdulillah for everythign i dont see people pointing fingers , and when some1 trys to speak negatively to me they cough and choke its like GOD stops them.. i dont like saying like but i know its fact :sl: alhumdulillah for everything...

now ..

this is an example scenario , a baby boy is born in an island , hes father throws him toys and toys and sweets and bends hes back for him to kiss him more then 80 times a day , love is good but hey the boy turns big and then he will listen to the father right? if the father was bad and didnt have knowledge the boy later on will be a person of this world and doesnt care , im not claiming ur lost becuase of family , ur here now thats a good thing =) please read the quran and tell me how u feel , if u see its a random feeling i get from years to year that comes and goes then the next day will be a worse day , if then u say u know the process of the world paradox i say get a camera and record urself and tell me :no: dont go confusing brother , wheres the respect , GOD gave u this feeling to feel great in urself that u feel strong and big and haveing a godly feeling but does this mean u use that status of urz to not be a believer ? hows that logical ? thats absorb , pharaon and eblees ( satan ) is in hell pharaon says to eblees that Allah have cursed you and you deserve it because no one put us here in hell only you you cursed one , Eblees ( satan ) replies , o shutup oshutUP! you when you said im your Highest GOD my soul got shocked! ...

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Salaams,

 

Sorry, I still don't see that infinite anything is absurd.

 

Please refer to the example in my last post. Something uncaused may be considered infinite, but this would exist outside the properties of time anyway. This is why I maintain that infinity does not exist in reality. As for infinite deterministic causation, this is like saying a circle with four sides, it is a contradiction in terms.

Seeing as we both agree an uncaused caused this universe, let's not ponder too much over infinity.

 

However, you haven't addressed my main question: Why do you insist that this uncaused cause is a being?

 

I have not insisted on the logical reasoning I’ve presented that this uncaused cause is a being. I’ve merely said that this uncaused cause is what most people call God. Using this premise alone, atheism is refuted. You can argue that you don’t believe in all the other characteristics usually attributed to the uncaused cause, but that’s not what I’ve been discussing.

 

You have attempted to show that there must be an uncaused cause, but you have not shown that this uncaused cause has any of the attributes of a god. You haven't even adressed the possiblilty that this uncaused cause disappeared after causing the universe.

 

If it is uncaused, which it must be, why would it disappear? This is a conclusion from nowhere.

 

That aside, as I said earlier, atheism is the default poition in the absence of evidence, just like apixieism is the default position in the absence of evidence.

 

No, agnosticism is the default position for those who wish to use the logical process to the discussed limit. If I said 'there's a pyramid in Iceland' your default position cannot be, 'no there isn't', by default it must be 'I don't know/I'm not sure' until you find out. Since you cannot possibly know if the uncaused first cause has the characteristics of a deity via any scientific evidence, your default position must be 'I'm not sure.'

 

Peace

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Salaams,

Please refer to the example in my last post. Something uncaused may be considered infinite, but this would exist outside the properties of time anyway. This is why I maintain that infinity does not exist in reality. As for infinite deterministic causation, this is like saying a circle with four sides, it is a contradiction in terms.

 

Nope, sorry, the example doesn't explain why an infinite anything is impossible. And why is infinite deterministic causation a contradiction in terms?

 

Also, do Muslims believe that people who go to heaven stay there for an infinite length of time? If not, what happens to them after the finite time?

 

I have not insisted on the logical reasoning I’ve presented that this uncaused cause is a being. I’ve merely said that this uncaused cause is what most people call God. Using this premise alone, atheism is refuted.

 

Nonsense. If the uncaused cause is a small bundle of matter without consciousnes, it is not what people call god.

 

If it is uncaused, which it must be, why would it disappear? This is a conclusion from nowhere.

 

I'm pointing out that you are assuming attributes for your uncaused cause. It is common for causes to be altered or even obliterated when they do the causing.

 

No, agnosticism is the default position for those who wish to use the logical process to the discussed limit. If I said 'there's a pyramid in Iceland' your default position cannot be, 'no there isn't', by default it must be 'I don't know/I'm not sure' until you find out. Since you cannot possibly know if the uncaused first cause has the characteristics of a deity via any scientific evidence, your default position must be 'I'm not sure.'

 

So my default position on pixies and the Flying Spaghetti Monster should be 'I'm not sure'? No.

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Salaams,

 

Nope, sorry, the example doesn't explain why an infinite anything is impossible. And why is infinite deterministic causation a contradiction in terms?

 

Tell me what you didn't understand about the example I gave. I'll try and explain it again once I know what didn't make sense to you.

 

Nonsense. If the uncaused cause is a small bundle of matter without consciousnes, it is not what people call god.

 

Small bundle of matter cannot be uncaused or infinite. The uncaused entity which caused this universe into existence is called God. Theists simply attribute more characteristics to this entity. So atheism is refuted.

 

I'm pointing out that you are assuming attributes for your uncaused cause. It is common for causes to be altered or even obliterated when they do the causing.

 

No, I didn't assume anything. It is a logical proof that what caused this universe must be uncaused and exists beyond the properties of the space-time universe. 'Obliterated', 'disappeared' and 'altered' are all phenomena of this universe. It illogical to use these terms on an entity you have already accepted as being uncaused and not bound by the laws of the universe.

 

So my default position on pixies and the Flying Spaghetti Monster should be 'I'm not sure'? No.

 

What is your default position of pyramids in Iceland?

 

Peace

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Salaams,

Tell me what you didn't understand about the example I gave. I'll try and explain it again once I know what didn't make sense to you.

 

 

OK - but later.

 

But you didn't answer my question about Muslims in paradise. Are they permanently there (in which case their stay is of infinite duration) or not? If not, what happens to them?

 

Small bundle of matter cannot be uncaused or infinite.

 

Why not?

 

No, I didn't assume anything. It is a logical proof that what caused this universe must be uncaused and exists beyond the properties of the space-time universe.

 

Beyond the properties of THIS space-time univere.

 

It illogical to use these terms on an entity you have already accepted as being uncaused and not bound by the laws of the universe.

 

Again, not bound by the laws of THIS universe. Also, I'll retract my acceptance of an uncaused cause. I'm not convinced that a chain of causes without beginning cannot exist.

 

What is your default position of pyramids in Iceland?

 

I'm reasonably sure that pyramids exist, and I'm reasonably sure that Iceland exists so several important criteria have already been met. It is highly likely that something pyramidical exists in Iceland. The question, if I had any doubt, could be simply solved to my satisfaction. The question about the existence of pixies cannot - by your reasoning - because the mere lack of any evidence should not lead you to conclude that they don't exist. The mere lack of any evidence should lead you to say "I don't know if pixies/unicorns/Aphrodite exist".

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OK - but later.

 

Salaams,

 

Okay, I'll wait for your response before I answer your other questions.

 

Peace

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Josh said:

 

You are in a queue at a shop counter. There are 3 people in front of you. It takes 1 minute for each person to be served. After each person is served, it causes the next person to step forward and be served. Therefore, you will wait 3 minutes before you are served. If there were 10 people in front of you, you will wait 10 minutes. If there were 100 people in front of you, you would wait 100 minutes, and so forth. However, if there were an infinite number of people in front of you i.e. there was no beginning to the queue, you would be waiting an infinite time to get to the front. In fact, you (a cause) would never happen because you exist at the end of infinity. This can be said for every cause in this absurd example. No causes could happen in infinity. Therefore, your above sentence does not even make sense. Deterministic causation cannot exist infinitely. It is impossible, or you are guilty of sophistry.

 

OK, good argument that a temporal sequence without a beginning cannot exist.. I'll see if I can think of a mathetician to ask about it,

 

However, you are postualting the possibility of something existing outside time (if not, your uncaused cause cannot have existed). Why cannot the infinite chain of causes not be outside time? Also, if something (your god) can exist outside time, why not an alternative thing, without to unnecessary baggage of consciousnes, will, etc?

 

Now for the rest of my questions.

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because i have edited it , tell me if its clearer if some1 can rephrase in a better meaning for the world please do :D , alhumdulillah.

 

Our tagline is that we live we die right ?
  • we're created ? wouldnt a creation be perfect and never dies ? unless its for a reason .... ? or is it we just turned out as a dejavu coincidence without a thing just from paradox equations of air air air air air :S .....
  • u living today , what about if u lived the times of the miracles !?!? wouldnt u go deep in faith ? or choose to be like (pharoan)? or you pass by these stories as its not real :S ... ? what about pharoan body found as said in the quran and proof for the world? is it some kind of trick ? all the scientists who have seen it became muslims check the records of reverts in egypt what can we say about that?
  • Tomorrow 1000 babies will be born having their own opinions like any of us ( but logically is 1 GOD logical ? ) or no GOD?!?!?
  • (opinions today through the observation of this world of opinions is going into illusions ? ) are you bordering in and out to the same perspective and not indulging any facts but rephrasing them in complex illusions of no meaning?? i can rephrase this for the new critical thinkers ... :sl: just reply in a PM the post isnt complex ponder for a second..
  • from the door of advices i wanna say that is, corrupting this world ? / or cure ? / upon the losers ? / or winners??? we/you decide ? but can you decide it with optimal results ? or do we need a manual to help us with all the puzzles of equations in this world ???!?, please present the true manual of goodness to this world that overseeds allsectors of how to live in this world ...
  • infinite brain sequence ? any judge can alienate judgment to any1, but what is the final verdict of these maneuvers of merrygoroundrides? is your life good :D or u try as best as u can to resist and make it good without a real satisfaction :D ...

ill look back to my old posts where ive posted a video of Atheists standing and doing shahada their faces turned from black sad crying to happy and light , the comments in youtube said its a photoshop trick but you can judge , if ur back bone hair stands then dont say dejavu but say Allaho Akbar :D ... Allaho Akbar!!!

the old posts are in archives im waiting for admin's replies as soon as i get my links il post them :sl:

 

i just want to be in benefit , without the applause =) so i dont turn bad 1 day.... the applause is for every1 in heaven when we succeed to success :no:

 

I Ask Allah to guide us All to the straight path and never look back to our nafs which commands us to be living in our status ourgodly feeling of illusion ... the nafs is you the choice is in ur hand of how to make ur nafs , if its bad only Allah (SWT) can diminish everything from u and make ur soul back to crystal clean , even the silliest joke a tickle will make u laugh because bad souls are numb from reality... we are not bad nor u , but we need to help each other if u join the ship you me and every1 must make it sail properly and not be living with diffrent boats sailing in diffrent direcitons..

 

peace :j:

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OK, good argument that a temporal sequence without a beginning cannot exist.. I'll see if I can think of a mathetician to ask about it,

 

However, you are postualting the possibility of something existing outside time (if not, your uncaused cause cannot have existed). Why cannot the infinite chain of causes not be outside time? Also, if something (your god) can exist outside time, why not an alternative thing, without to unnecessary baggage of consciousnes, will, etc?

 

Now for the rest of my questions.

 

It would seem to me that the concepts of an ‘infinite chain of causes’ and ‘timelessness’ are mutually exclusive. If something is a ‘chain of causes’, this assumes the existence of some type of time continuum. As josh0335 has demonstrated, an infinite or beginningless chain of causes is an impossibility.

 

 

 

So you can not attribute infinitude to this imaginary ‘chain of causes’. The best you can do in this vain, is to posit that our universe was caused by a ‘finite chain of causes’, existing in a different space / time. But then you engage in question begging / infinite regress.

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Josh said:

OK, good argument that a temporal sequence without a beginning cannot exist.. I'll see if I can think of a mathetician to ask about it,

 

However, you are postualting the possibility of something existing outside time (if not, your uncaused cause cannot have existed). Why cannot the infinite chain of causes not be outside time? Also, if something (your god) can exist outside time, why not an alternative thing, without to unnecessary baggage of consciousnes, will, etc?

 

Now for the rest of my questions.

 

Salaams,

 

Student answered your question well. It seems many of your latter posts are riddled sophism. You are using words and presenting arguments that cannot be conceptualised in your mind. So saying something like 'infinite chain of causes outside time' is an example where you haven't thought about what you're saying. A chain of causes means one cause begins and another begins after it. 'Begins' and 'after it' are terms only valid when there is time. But you've tried to present a scenario where this can happen outside time. It can not. The only possible terminator for an infinite regress is an uncaused entity.

 

You have no choice but to accept this as true, or you betray your own logic.

 

Peace

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In a situation "outide time", nothing sequential can happen, there can be no 'before' and 'after'. But the very creation of this universe must have happened at a point in "time" (or whatever you want to call it) which means the uncaused cause must have acted in a way which had "before" and "after". If it's possible for an uncaused cause to divide its "time" into "before" and "after" then the problem of something happening after an infinite "time" has elapsed applies to the uncaused cause as well as the infinite chain. It seem to be a paradox.

 

Leaving that aside, even if there was an uncaused cause, that says nothing at all about the existence of god/s.

 

* What happens to people who go to heaven or hell - are they there for an infiinite time? If not, what happens to them after a finite time?

 

* Why assume that the uncaused cause is sentient?

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OK, I've been reading about Craig and the Kalam argument, and their refuters, and I definitely do not want to go there as I'm neither a philopoher nor a mathematician.

 

I assume from your stance that you would not accept my position of "the jury is still out on the possibility of beginningless time/events", so (being magnanimous) I'll accept your position for the sake of argument.

 

That still leaves my primary question: why assume that an uncaused cause is sentient?

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