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The Quran Is Not The Word Of Man

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How to win friends and influence people; it's a cultural reference. I thought you would have caught it. Basically, you are new here, and a little tact goes a long way towards developing the necessary rapport to have a debate. You can't have a discussion if no one is interested in what you have to say. People have limits to their time, and they aren't going to give it to people they think are nothing but irritating pricks (not saying you are, but you certainly could do a better job of letting people get to know you). Try going a little slower, ask more questions, and reduce the prognostication until you have a base of knowledge built up. And if you think you already have that base, you are either someone well educated in Islamic studies, which makes me wonder why you would be wasting your time debating on a internet forum, or else you need an extra helping of humility.

 

I'm more of a to the point type of person. I just like to get right down to it.

 

I understand what you mean, but usually when I post on forums, I've always posted a few posts (or maybe 20 max) and then left. I'm not the extra slow, let's get 10,000 posts type of poster, but I get what you mean and you may have a point when it comes to this website.

 

I've read the Quran, and talked with Muslims before. But that's all. I'm not that skilled in internet discussions and all that, although I have debated many religionists before in person.

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It could be tampered with. Islam comes prepackaged in all sorts of flavours. You cannot say for sure it has not been modified, and many muslims in Dawah say that to loop in uneducated, ignorant and gullible kaffir into converting to your religion.

 

Sure, it could be tampered with..if we can succeed in brainwashing millions of people into forgetting parts or the entire Qur'an and getting rid of the billions of copies of the Qur'an that exist worldwide.

 

Let me share a brief glimpse into the history of the Qur'an.

 

When prophet Muhammad received revelation, he would gather the companions and relate it to them until they had put it to memory. Then he would gather his scribes and instruct them to write it down. The companions would recite the entire Qur'an at least once every week, and they recited it during prayer. During prophet Muhammad's time, some companions who memorized the Qur'an were Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, Ibn Masud, Abu Huraira, Abdullah bin Abbas, Abdullah bin Amr bin al-As, Aisha, Hafsa, and Umm Salama.

 

Companions who had their own copies of the Qur'an were: Ibn Mas'ud, Ubay bin Ka'b, Ali, Ibn Abbas, Abu Musa, Hafsa, Anas bin Malik, Umar, Zaid bin Thabit, Ibn Al-Zubair, Abdullah ibn Amr, Aisha, Salim, Umm Salama, Ubaid bin Umar.

 

Three famous scribes of prophet Muhammad were: Ibn Masud, Ubay bin Kab and Zaid bin Thabit.

 

Prophet Muhammad constantly asked the companions to recite to him, as proven by this Hadith:

 

'Allah Apostle said to me (Abdullah bin Mas'ud): "Recite (of the Quran) to me". I said: "Shall I recite it to you although it had been revealed to you?!" He Said: "I like to hear (the Quran) from others". So I recited Sura-an-Nisa' till I reached: "How (will it be) then when We bring from each nation a witness and We bring you (O Muhammad) as a witness against these people?"' (4:41) 'Then he said: "Stop!" Behold, his eyes were shedding tears.' [sahih Bukhari]

 

After the death of prophet Muhammad, there was a great battle in which many hafid-ul-Qur'an (memorizers of the Qur'an) were killed. After that, Abu Bakr ordered that the entire Qur'an be copied from the original writings into one complete book, which was entrusted to Hafsa, the wife of prophet Muhammad.

 

During Umar's rule, he established many schools for learning and memorizing Qur'an throughout the Muslim world. One of the second generation Muslims, Ibn Amir, had 400 disciples in his school in Damascus.

 

During Uthman's rule, it came to his attention that many of the Muslims throughout Arabia had their own personal copies which were written in their own dialects, so he received the original from Hafsa and instructed prophet Muhammad's scribes to make copies of these, which were then distributed to other cities. He then ordered all personal copies to be destroyed. Two of these manuscripts exist to this day. Not only have there always been written copies of the Qur'an available to the later Muslims, there has been an oral tradition in the Muslim world. Not to forget the works of the scholars who studied the Qur'an and wrote extensive works on it in the earlier centuries.

 

It's not an exaggerated claim that the Qur'an has not been changed. It's most certainly not empty words used to dupe people into accepting Islam.

 

Salam.

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usually when I post on forums, I've always posted a few posts (or maybe 20 max) and then left.

Well, congratulations then, you've already surpassed your previous limit. Stick around for a little while and you could even have a good discussion in which you feel that both parties benefited.

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You still can't be completely assured that when it was being handed down it wasn't tampered with by some troublemakers. Or maybe the pagans they were fighting got their hands on it. You can never be sure with these type of things, it could be modified and it could be not.

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Well, congratulations then, you've already surpassed your previous limit. Stick around for a little while and you could even have a good discussion in which you feel that both parties benefited.

 

Good. Although I think all the discussions so far has been positive, I don't really care what your view of how my discussions have gone so far are. I do note that you seem to have taken an acute interest in me, so maybe you should be a mentor of sorts and set the example for how I should act around here. First, a suggestion: Stop being so judgmental of the virtual poster whom you do not know. Of course you'll try to counter and say blah blah blah I am, but I have a tangible example here of you being Mr. Know-it-all with me and trying to force your views and opinions on me which hasn't worked.

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I've just given you what I think is good advice. It's up to you to take it. As for me taking an interest in you, I post alot, and you caught me at a point where I could answer you in a fairly rapid manner. I apologize if this seems like bad timing on your part.

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I've just given you what I think is good advice. It's up to you to take it. As for me taking an interest in you, I post alot, and you caught me at a point where I could answer you in a fairly rapid manner. I apologize if this seems like bad timing on your part.

 

Meh, just seemed like you had taken a keen interest in me. Whatever.

 

On a more positive note, constantly replying to you did make me break my previous record of how many posts I've ever had! Great!

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You still can't be completely assured that when it was being handed down it wasn't tampered with by some troublemakers. Or maybe the pagans they were fighting got their hands on it. You can never be sure with these type of things, it could be modified and it could be not.

 

That would be saying that the hundreds of companions who memorized it during prophet Muhammad's time, the thousands who memorized it after his death, and the even greater number who memorized it after that, were unaware that the verses had been altered or replaced, or even removed, by Pagans.

 

Got their hands on what? Their minds? As I already said, far too many people had already memorized the Qur'an. The four Caliphs, Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, and Ali were among those who memorized it and they collectively lived long enough to oversee the maintenance of the Qur'an. The companions had their own copies, and they would have noticed any variations if some Pagans went around claiming something that wasn't in the Qur'an. The original manuscript that was instructed by prophet Muhammad was with Hafsa until she died. The Qur'an was already preserved in far too many ways when Islam began, and it became even harder to change it the more people learned its contents. I forgot to add that every Ramadhan, the prophet used to go over the Qur'an and make sure that it had been transmitted properly, which decreases the likelihood that there was change over time.

 

Two manuscripts of Uthman (one of the memorizers of the Qur'an) are available even to this day. Uthman was a companion of prophet Muhammad, one of the people who learned directly from him. And as I said, when he was making these copies to send out to the other Muslims, he gathered together many experts on the Qur'an and even asked the original scribes to make these copies. What degree of an oversight could have resulted in any errors in the Qur'an?

 

I know that you're playing the skeptic, which is perfectly fine, but there has to be more to it than saying there's room for error. It is too fantastical an argument for error or deliberate changes to be a factor when the Qur'an had been rigorously transmitted, memorized, distributed, discussed, verified, studied, applied, and recorded.

 

Salam.

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That would be saying that the hundreds of companions who memorized it during prophet Muhammad's time, the thousands who memorized it after his death, and the even greater number who memorized it after that, were unaware that the verses had been altered or replaced, or even removed, by Pagans.

But wouldn't the force of that argument only connect if he accepted this account, that there were in fact hundreds of people who all perfectly memorized the Qur'an at the time of its recording? It seems that he could simply choose to attribute this to the mythology that built up around early Islamic history. I don't know if this is what he thinks, and I don't want to suggest that this is in fact what happened. All I am trying to do is point out that demonstrating the matter is a little more difficult, especially when faced with pervasive doubt.

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I suppose we could always deny history.

 

Just to add the religious aspect, in one Hadith prophet Muhammad said: The one who was devoted to the Qur'an will be told on the Day of Resurrection: `Recite and ascend (in ranks) as you used to recite when you were in the world. Your rank will be at the last Ayah (verse) you recite.' [At-Tirmidhi]

 

He said in another Hadith: The best amongst you is the one who learns the Qur'an and teaches it. [bukhari]

 

So it would have been in their best interest to memorize the Qur'an, as Muslims worldwide currently do. It's far too convenient to say that current Muslims desired higher ranks of Paradise far more than the early ones, hence why only they decided to memorize it.

 

Unless the next argument here is that these Hadiths were fabricated to support the mythology that people had memorized the Qur'an. Heh.

 

Salam.

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It could be tampered with.

 

Now you are assuming something that is not true nor do you have ANY proof to back up your assumption. Thats like me saying that you could have been messed with as a young boy, how would i know that?

 

Islam comes prepackaged in all sorts of flavours. You cannot say for sure it has not been modified, and many muslims in Dawah say that to loop in uneducated, ignorant and gullible kaffir into converting to your religion.

 

I can say that the Quran has NOT been modified and it IS in the original language that it was given in thats a fact. And Islam wants and attracts educated minds not gullible ignorant people,this is a religion that welcomes you to think and to think deeply.

 

I exist because I am typing to you right now and replying to your posts. I exist because I am consciously aware of myself right now as I am typing this.Prove your God exists and your religion is the right one. Go.

 

NO you exist because of Islam and any other religion that believes in the one true God plain and simple, your an atheist, you would not exist as an atheist if it wasnt for theist yet theist would and always exist without an atheist,the religion of Islam is here and without it or any other G-d fearing religions you as an atheist would cease to exist. So your religion is based solely on the existence of Us who belive in the exiestence of Allah. Take away Allah then you nolonger exist as an atheist you would not even be here on any forum as an athiest what would you be???? However on the flip side if there was no atheist ever then belivers in Allah would still exist. So mister athiest you owe Allah thanks for your existence but you dont have to acknowledge that He exists or even offer thanks but rational logic proves that your whole thought process on God is nothing with out God but very different without you.

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I suppose we could always deny history.

But there is not that clear a line between history and mythology, at least for most cultures (perhaps Islam is different due to being guided by God and the Qur'an). Even America, a fairly young society, has its mythologies.

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NO you exist because of Islam and any other religion that believes in the one true God plain and simple, your an atheist, you would not exist as an atheist if it wasnt for theist yet theist would and always exist without an atheist,the religion of Islam is here and without it or any other G-d fearing religions you as an atheist would cease to exist.

Is it Islam and its believers that cause him to exist, or is it the God of Islam and its believers? You seem to be claiming the former, so I was wondering if Islam assigns a special role for maintaining the existence of creation to believers.

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Is it Islam and its believers that cause him to exist, or is it the God of Islam and its believers?

 

The God of Islam is the God of all of humanity, He is not just the God of Islam according to our beliefs He is your God as well He is everybodies God He is not Just the God of Muslims or certain believers He is the God of everybody. It is God that causes him to exist and that causes us as believers to exist. It cant be the other way around we cant cause God to exist if we could then what information are we going off of if we never knew a name God. The one who created us guides us to understanding about Him which brings Him into existence for us but it is God that does that not us

 

You seem to be claiming the former, so I was wondering if Islam assigns a special role for maintaining the existence of creation to believers.

 

yes it does, Allah does assign a role for the believers to maintain the earth, we are responsible for instituting moral laws, no athiest would ever even known the difference between right and wrong if it was not for morals practiced by those who believe in God. How would an athiest know murder is wrong if the believers in God did not establish that, and we can just take a look at history and see what people was like without no moral laws. Morality doesnt exist without God. So yes the believers in God should be the maintaners of the earth meaning we cultivate it and study it but we are in no way responsible for maintaining the existence of creation...wow thats too much, we can barely maintain a society or a ourselves.

Edited by twoswordali

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But there is not that clear a line between history and mythology, at least for most cultures (perhaps Islam is different due to being guided by God and the Qur'an). Even America, a fairly young society, has its mythologies.

 

So when dozens of recorded people said they attended schools with hundreds or thousands of other students and learned the Qur'an verbatim from so-and-so, and those teachers said they learned it directly from the companions, and the Qur'an schools established throughout the Muslim world were overseen by the four Caliphs (who many people said they had memorized the Qur'an as well), it was all based on mythology? This must have been a conspiracy of epic proportions. Let's add the conspiracy of Abu Bakr, Uthman and the written versions of the Qur'an to the mix as well, why don't we.

 

Secondly, the only reason that anyone would argue that something is based on mythical accounts is if the claim is too grand to be believable. If millions of Muslims worldwide have managed to memorize the Qur'an during this modern age as well as all periods after "early Islam", why is it so ludicrous a thought to say that early Muslims memorized it as well?

 

Islam has never been treated in a careless, flippant manner to the extent that such a massive myth could have snuck its way into its history and fit snugly into the books of the scholars, which had been written as early as (if not earlier than) the third generation of Islam.

 

I still do not accept this whole "there's room for error" argument. It's much too desperate and insubstantial.

 

Salam.

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I still do not accept this whole "there's room for error" argument. It's much too desperate and insubstantial.

Of course you don't accept it. If you did, you would be in a very difficult position of trying to be Muslim while have very serious doubts about its origins. I would not wish that upon you. Besides, I am not arguing for this position, but merely pointing out to you that it is a perspective that one must anticipate.

 

As for recorded witnesses, of course the fact of witnesses would be part of the mythology of Islam (I say this to represent the argument), just as it is with Christianity and most other major religions. In fact, verification through testimony is probably the most common form of proof offered by most religions, since most of them developed in a period where oral history was still dominant. There are also stories of successions from mythological beginnings, both in religion, i.e., the Catholic church's apostolic succession, and in most ancient governments, which were established by mythological progenitors, i.e., Romulus and Remus for Rome.

 

This doesn't mean (speaking as myself now) that this is true of Islam, but this perspective would see this very phenomena at work in religious and political institutes throughout human history and wonder why they should believe Islam is somehow different. Now, you have an answer to that question, but it is not an answer that the doubter currently accepts. You have to argue on behalf of that answer in order to even move the discussion forward enough to talk about the other proofs of the Qur'an's veracity.

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Frankly, I could continue to insist otherwise, but it's pointless.

 

However, I'm not a blind follower. I don't believe merely because it suits my purposes. Everything points to the fact that the Qur'an was preseved. There is no reason that Islam should be discredited on the basis of what-ifs.

 

But I think that your stance that historical accounts cannot be reliable is a slippery slope; on that basis, I could deny that the age of Enlightenment even happened.

 

Salam.

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No problem, I'm not trying to argue a viewpoint or convince you of it. I merely wanted to express what we think of as constituting proof does not always work when different perspectives are at work.

 

If you want, I can talk more about this (we can even use your example of the Enlightenment if you like). But if you aren't interested, I understand and thank you for your time spent discussing this with me.

Edited by the sad clown

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As always, your courteous manner of stating things is appreciated.

 

Salam.

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