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Minaret Ban Wins Swiss Support

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The Swiss in general are a tolerant, liberal people, and are not racists. But living as they do in the heart of Europe, they can hardly be unaware of what is happening around them. The vote was quite simply a reaction to the ever more shrill demands of Europe's Islamic leaders for special rights and special treatment. Examples are legion: special areas set aside in the workplace for prayers - in company time; demands for an alternative system of justice based on sharia law for the settlement of family disputes that would deny women equal treatment; and the fact that while not all Muslims are terrorists, most terrorists we have seen in Europe recently have been Muslims.

 

Why are these demands shrill? Are they any more shrill than homosexuals demanding the right to marry? Are minority groups not allowed to demand rights because the majority don't agree? And how have you come up with this false premise that it was a reaction to things happening in some parts of Europe?

 

The Swiss were also provoked by a recent call by Muammar Gaddafi for Switzerland to be broken up because the Geneva police had had the temerity to arrest his son for beating a servant, followed by the unjustified arrest of two Swiss businessmen in Libya in retaliation.

 

Which shows how stupid the Swiss people are eh? Allow Libyan actions to decide your domestic policies, yea that's the way to go...

 

Most of all, however, the Swiss have been provoked by the failure of Europe's Muslims to play by the rules; to enter into debate about the merits and demerits of Islam, but instead to take to the streets, banners screaming for the overthrow of democracy and freedom, at every insult to Islam, real or perceived.

 

Got any evidence for this? No, this is simply you perputuating a rather stupid and narrow minded portrayal of the 'Muslim problem'. I've never gone to the streets screaming for the overthrow of democracy and freedom and I don't know of any Muslims that have. When have Swiss Muslims called for the overthrow of democracy? What failure to debate are you referring to? What evidence do you have to claim that it is European affairs which provoked the Swiss reaction as opposed to their own national issues?

 

The other reason for the success of the vote was that it does not infringe the right of Muslims to practice their religion. It was merely symbolic. Muslims are completely free to build Masjids and worship in them as they please without any interference. It is no hardship not to have a minaret. To put this into perspective it should be compared with the plight of the Christians in Iraq and Egypt who face daily violence, with priests being murdered, churches burnt and worshipers harrassed.

 

No, Swiss domestic policy should not be rationalized based on the sufferings of other people somewhere else in the world. Your comparison is stupid.

 

The fact of the matter is that only 53% of the population bothered to vote on the referendum, and a small majority of 57% won. What percentage of the Swiss population does that represent? You do the math. If anything, this vote exposes the farcical nature of referenda in a system of part-representative democracy. The vote is a form of bullying against the tiny 300,000 Muslim population who live in Switzerland. Minorities require protection against mass politics. The Swiss system has failed.

Edited by josh0335

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PropellerAds

Ladies and Gentlemen

 

No point in discussing our democratic vote.

Erection of Masjids is still allowed, though.

 

You may read below's questions and concerns as being somewhat polemic in your perception.

And I see no way but to really point to the problems at issue these days.

Remaining soft spoken would not address the issues adequately.

 

Please note, our SPP (Swiss People's Party) generally represents around 25% of all voters.

So, if 58% joined the SPP in subject vote, the vast majority emerged from all kinds

of political colours.

 

It is thus the muslim society who has to define solutions compatible with

given systems in Europe allover, not only in Switzerland.

 

Would you not request the same from Eurpoeans in muslim countries?

 

Please note that forced mariages, honour killing and lack of integration of muslims in

Switzerland and the rest of Europe is rampant.

 

No single muslim country adopts human rights according to European standards.

 

However, how many Synagogues and Churches are there in Iran, Saudi-Arabia, Syria, Iraq, Yemen etc.

In Turkey nobody intervenes if a Church is destroyed....

 

Why don't you approach this so called "arabic parliament" and ask them

to get home work done first.

 

To be clear: 95% of all muslims in Switzerland pose no problem.

But the remaining ones are a big headache.

 

For example (1):

Why do muslim women need to cover thir faces?

Because muslim men consider them as merchandise.

But we consider men and women as equal.

 

Example (2):

Swimming lessons in Switzerland are mandatory for boys and girls.

But I have seen myself muslim parents requesting to separate genders

or to grant dispensation?

 

So, they do not want to abide in our rules, but to create their own.

 

Have we ever seen Christians, Buddhists, Hindus or Shintoists blowing up an airplane with 300 people?

No religion has so many preachers of hatred than muslims.

Please Stop them!!!!!

 

What did Mr. Pierre Vogel do when prevented to entr Switzerland?

Please check his video postings on youtube.

Only hatred and threats and trying to jeopardize ou reputation abroad.

 

Sorry, but it really scary whtat's going on.

 

So, please sit back and think about solutions which musims can provide.

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Those are the facts josh , like them or not , the question arose regarding the minaret ban , and its obvious you dont like the answers , but you start branding people as stupid ,and their perceptions as , stupid .Well it's their country , and it's a christian nation just as Jordan or Egypt are muslim nations . No you likely haven't been screaming in the streets , but you are not in Switzerland , and as far as how the Swiss react to mocking of their laws by a head of State's son , and that same head of State retaliating foolishly, then making comments on destroying Switzerland because of it , well maybe you ought to look a little closer and see just where the stupid is .

Were the situation reversed , I 'm sure we wouldn't have to guess very hard at the results .

And your overuse of the word "stupid " exhibits a disregard and disespect for cultures and traditions other than your own . And you are not alone in holding such an attitude of disrespect

, in reference to the free vote of the Swiss regarding their own country.

 

The fact of the matter josh , is that Switzerland is a sovereign nation , a democracy , and if they so vote to ban construction of minarets , so be it , it is their sovereign choice , and it in no way implies persecution or any thing else other than just that ban . Muslims are free to build masjids , free to worship as they please , but they will abide Swiss Law , not sharia .If immigrants to a antion cannot abide that nations laws or traditions , then they should leave .

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The fact of the matter josh , is that Switzerland is a sovereign nation , a democracy , and if they so vote to ban construction of minarets , so be it , it is their sovereign choice , and it in no way implies persecution or any thing else other than just that ban . Muslims are free to build masjids , free to worship as they please , but they will abide Swiss Law , not sharia .If immigrants to a antion cannot abide that nations laws or traditions , then they should leave .

 

I can't agree more. Immigrants have to assimilate or they will incur the wrath and scorn of the native population. Think about it you're moving to someone else's lands then refusing to assimilate into the culture, opting to try and change it (radically i might add) instead, and you wonder why they dislike you? How would you feel if a mass flight of Christians flocked to the middle east and tried to Christianize it?

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Those are the facts josh , like them or not ,

 

What facts have you presented? That Muslims don't debate? That Muslim demands are 'shrill'? You call these facts? Why don't you present some evidence for these so-called facts?

 

the question arose regarding the minaret ban , and its obvious you dont like the answers , but you start branding people as stupid ,and their perceptions as , stupid .

 

I've called your opinions stupid. You don't speak on behalf of the Swiss people and have presented no evidence that your reasons are the reasons used by the Swiss. And your opinions are indeed stupid. You've made sweeping statements as if they are fact. Somehow, things happening in some parts of Europe dictate how Swiss people vote on national issues. But you've provided no evidence for this.

 

And your overuse of the word "stupid " exhibits a disregard and disespect for cultures and traditions other than your own . And you are not alone in holding such an attitude of disrespect

, in reference to the free vote of the Swiss regarding their own country.

 

Your overuse of stupid comments exhibits a disregard and disrespect for critical thinking. Making sensationalist claims like 'Muslims not playing by the rules' is disrespectful to European citizens who happen to follow a different religion than you.

 

The fact of the matter josh , is that Switzerland is a sovereign nation , a democracy , and if they so vote to ban construction of minarets , so be it , it is their sovereign choice , and it in no way implies persecution or any thing else other than just that ban . Muslims are free to build masjids , free to worship as they please , but they will abide Swiss Law , not sharia .If immigrants to a antion cannot abide that nations laws or traditions , then they should leave .

 

The real fact of the matter Joachim, is that Swiss Muslims have been abiding by Swiss law. What history is there of Swiss Muslims causing problems, anymore than any other 'group'? The ban reflects an anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant sentiment in sections of Swiss society, and in no way implies anything else. Minarets have nothing to do with shariah law so you've made a moot point, once again. I'll say it again, minorities need protection from mass politics and the Swiss system has failed.

 

 

I can't agree more. Immigrants have to assimilate or they will incur the wrath and scorn of the native population. Think about it you're moving to someone else's lands then refusing to assimilate into the culture, opting to try and change it (radically i might add) instead, and you wonder why they dislike you? How would you feel if a mass flight of Christians flocked to the middle east and tried to Christianize it?

 

Immigrants have to assimilate? Why? It's funny how people who champion democracy like to suspend its core values when it comes to perpetuating their narrow-minded view of identity. Democracies give people the freedom to live the lifestyle they desire, as long as they abide by the laws. But for you, this isn't enough. Not only should they abide by the law, they should assimilate and imitate the natives.

 

And cultures change all the time, even without the influence of immigrants. Why shouldn't immigrants want to change the culture they live in? Is there some sort of democratic rule to not allow it? In a democracy, everyone is allowed to influence the culture in a law-abiding way. If the peope don't like it, they will reject it. That's how liberal democracies work.

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Immigrants only have to assimulate to the point - "of the core values of the nation they are guests in " ...is that clear to you Josh .

And you did infact refer to the Swiss as STUPID , in addition to calling my statements stupid . This simply exemplifies what I stated earlier about your attitudes regarding the traditions and values of those other than your own . And Yes , the Swiss just as any other nation , takes note of what is happening around them , just like you do , just like muslim nations do . And they do in fact form policy based on that .Would you dispute that ?

It's a two way street there Josh , you can not demand of the Swiss that which you do not demand of other nations .

They are perfectly within their rights , and I would back them even if they said no construction of Cathedrals over a certain height , and the same for Synogogues .

 

That's their perogative even if you do not respoect it .

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Dear Josh, we do not know which country you are from.

But Joachim really hit the point as such.

Assimilation is not equal to become similar to natives.

And it does not mean to restrict cultural belongings.

 

And here, let us be careful:

We are discussing religious aspects and no cultural ones (!!!).

In all the blgs I researched here, there was not one voice

of understanding when we several times pointed out, how Islamic countries would behave.

 

Answer this question:

In Iran, Syria, Iraq, Saudi-Arabia, Libya or elswhwere I want to build

a) a Synagogue

b) a Church

 

Would we be allowed to do so?

 

 

And one legal aspect: there is a doctrine of reciprocity.

 

Now, Josh, you got to answer these above questions.

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Okay i'm going to use your logic for this reply.

 

 

 

The real fact of the matter Joachim, is that Swiss Muslims have been abiding by Swiss law. What history is there of Swiss Muslims causing problems, anymore than any other 'group'? The ban reflects an anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant sentiment in sections of Swiss society, and in no way implies anything else. Minarets have nothing to do with shariah law so you've made a moot point, once again. I'll say it again, minorities need protection from mass politics and the Swiss system has failed.

 

Now if i change a couple of words in this statement we get: The real fact of the matter josh0335, is that Saudi Christians have been abiding by Saudi law. What history is there of Saudi Christians causing problems, anymore than any other 'group'? The ban (on Churches) reflects an anti-Christian and anti-immigrant sentiment in sections of Saudi society, and in no way implies anything else. Churches have nothing to do with proselytizing so you've made a moot point, once again. I'll say it again, minorities need protection from mass politics and the Saudi system has failed

 

See what i did there? your argument is equally condemning (probably more so) to your own people as it is to the Swiss

Immigrants have to assimilate? Why? It's funny how people who champion democracy like to suspend its core values when it comes to perpetuating their narrow-minded view of identity. Democracies give people the freedom to live the lifestyle they desire, as long as they abide by the laws. But for you, this isn't enough. Not only should they abide by the law, they should assimilate and imitate the natives.

 

You have to take on our core values that's how it works. You don't have to "imitate" us you just have to assimilate to the point where your values or demands do not encroach on other peoples rights (shariah courts). On a side note Switzerland doesn't guarantee all the rights the US does in it's constitution, so they were perfectly justified in the action they took whether you approve of it or not.

 

And cultures change all the time, even without the influence of immigrants. Why shouldn't immigrants want to change the culture they live in? Is there some sort of democratic rule to not allow it? In a democracy, everyone is allowed to influence the culture in a law-abiding way. If the peope don't like it, they will reject it. That's how liberal democracies work.

 

No there is no rule saying you can't try to change the culture, but there is a unspoken rule among the native population to resist change to their culture. If you try and change someone's culture you are going to face scorn and anger from the native populace and that's just how it is.

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Immigrants only have to assimulate to the point - "of the core values of the nation they are guests in " ...is that clear to you Josh .

 

Yes, which is what Swiss and Europeans Muslims do. The core value is to obey the law. But you want more than that. Not only obey the law (which is the core value) but to immitate the natives.

 

And you did infact refer to the Swiss as STUPID , in addition to calling my statements stupid . This simply exemplifies what I stated earlier about your attitudes regarding the traditions and values of those other than your own .

 

 

No, your statements are stupid. What you said about the Swiss was stupid. What you said about European Muslims was stupid. Are you going to provide any evidence for anything you said in your first post?

 

And Yes , the Swiss just as any other nation , takes note of what is happening around them , just like you do , just like muslim nations do . And they do in fact form policy based on that .Would you dispute that ?

 

Yes I would. You gonna give us any evidence for these 'facts'? Show me what your using that says events in Europe were a determining factor for the minority of Swiss who voted for the ban?

 

It's a two way street there Josh , you can not demand of the Swiss that which you do not demand of other nations .

They are perfectly within their rights , and I would back them even if they said no construction of Cathedrals over a certain height , and the same for Synogogues .

 

That's their perogative even if you do not respoect it .

 

I demand the protection of minorities from mass politics. The issue here is that Switzerland is a democratic nation, which claims to uphold democratic values. Yet their system has allowed a minority to be victims. They have not said cathedrals or synogoues cannot be constructed, they've specifically singled out the 300,000 Muslim population.

 

Anyway, your half baked thinking has been exposed. You are unable to justify your claim that 'shrill' demands of European Muslims amongst other things were a determining factor in the Swiss vote. You've not acknowledged that only 57% of the 53% who bothered to vote pushed the ban through, meaning this wasn't really a reflection of the Swiss people at all. It exposes the farcical nature of referenda, when only a quarter of the people are needed to push legislation through because of a lack of turnout.

 

 

Okay i'm going to use your logic for this reply.

Now if i change a couple of words in this statement we get: The real fact of the matter josh0335, is that Saudi Christians have been abiding by Saudi law. What history is there of Saudi Christians causing problems, anymore than any other 'group'? The ban (on Churches) reflects an anti-Christian and anti-immigrant sentiment in sections of Saudi society, and in no way implies anything else. Churches have nothing to do with proselytizing so you've made a moot point, once again. I'll say it again, minorities need protection from mass politics and the Saudi system has failed

 

See what i did there? your argument is equally condemning (probably more so) to your own people as it is to the Swiss

 

I'm not from Saudi Arabia, so they are not 'my people'. I'm from the UK. Try to focus.

 

You have to take on our core values that's how it works.

 

Justify this claim by explaining what you mean by core values and why immigrants must follow it. I see you didn't refute anything I said above. Liberal democracies allow people to choose their own lifestyle without coercion or force. Do you not like this democratic value?

 

You don't have to "imitate" us you just have to assimilate to the point where your values or demands do not encroach on other peoples rights (shariah courts).

 

No, you don't. Again, in a democracy you can live how you want. If one abides by the law they can not possibly encrouch on other people rights. Muslims living as Muslims, Seikhs living as Seikhs, Buddhists living as Buddhists under the law do not infringe anyone else's rights. Swiss Muslims were abiding by the law.

 

No there is no rule saying you can't try to change the culture, but there is a unspoken rule among the native population to resist change to their culture. If you try and change someone's culture you are going to face scorn and anger from the native populace and that's just how it is.

 

And that's just the way it should be, eh?

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How many public statues of (say) Ganesha are there in Muslim-majority countries? There might be some in Malaysia, possibly some remaining in Pakistan and Bangladesh (although I don't recall seeing any) but I would be surprised if they were allowed elsewhere. If you're going to complain that Muslim public symbols are not permitted you have to also complain when ANY religion is discriminated against.

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It's a matter of respect Josh , something that seems to be lost on you . No , no one's asking muslims "imitate the natives ", but simply to abide their laws , and respect their customs and traditions .The European nations , however you may attempt to marginalize them , are nonetheless not muslim nations . Muslims are the newcomers and the guests .

I wonder if you are aware what would happen to any non muslim group in a muslim nation who behaved in the same manner . But I'm sure you are in fact aware . It is truly ironic , that there is such a reaction to the Swiss ban .

Where a mere construction ban is widely protested , whilst no muslim in Switzerland is being minimized, persecuted or harrassed , no masjid are being burnt down , nor clerics killed .

 

 

And as far as "evidence " goes Josh , well if you can read a newspaper , view You-Tube , or expose yourself to any form of media , then you will have all the "evidence " you need . Nothing is hidden today , in this age of communication . However one who seems to so vehemently to defend conspiracy theories , yet out of hand rejects historical information in the public domain , leaves an impression of hypocrisy on your part .

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It's a matter of respect Josh , something that seems to be lost on you .

 

I don't respect hypocrisy, even if you do. To claim to be a democratic country with democratic values you must uphold it in all areas. By denying the rights of a minority whilst claiming democracy is hypocrisy.

 

No , no one's asking muslims "imitate the natives ", but simply to abide their laws , and respect their customs and traditions .The European nations , however you may attempt to marginalize them , are nonetheless not muslim nations . Muslims are the newcomers and the guests .

 

Are you a racist? Let me correct you. Swiss Muslims are not 'guests' or 'newcomers' as many of them are born there or settled immigrants, thus are citizens of that country. Once again, Swiss Muslims and European Muslims do abide by the laws and they do respect the native customs. You are asking them to imitate the natives and deny them the basic democratic right of choosing their own lifestyle. "You can live here as long as you don't do anything too different to us."

 

Where a mere construction ban is widely protested , whilst no muslim in Switzerland is being minimized, persecuted or harrassed , no masjid are being burnt down , nor clerics killed .

 

Your grossly biased views are becoming more evident with each post. You seem to be missing the point that it was the Muslim minority which was singled out with this ban. No other religious group is affected. Therefore, it is discrimination against Muslims. They, as a law abiding community, are not allowed to express their democratic right of choosing their own lifestyle via architecture, which is available to all other people. This is a democratic value being violated.

 

And as far as "evidence " goes Josh , well if you can read a newspaper , view You-Tube , or expose yourself to any form of media , then you will have all the "evidence " you need . Nothing is hidden today , in this age of communication . However one who seems to so vehemently to defend conspiracy theories , yet out of hand rejects historical information in the public domain , leaves an impression of hypocrisy on your part .

 

Yet you can't link me a youtube video with your oh-so critical thinking mind? I want you to show me that shrill demands of Muslims affected the vote. Evidence that Swiss Muslims demand special prayer areas during work hours, which affected the vote. That European Muslims do not debate, which affected the vote. That European Muslims went marching in the streets calling for an end to democracy, which in turn affected the vote. This should not be difficult if nothing is hidden. The truth is, nothing you said has any basis. I would have left it at that but your matter-of-fact tone forced me to expose your rather obtuse comments.

 

What your critical thinking mind does not comprehend is that something like one quarter of the Swiss population voted for the ban. So a yes-no referundum was won by only 1/4 of the population. Perhaps if you critically analysed that you might come to the conclusion that the ban might not actually reflect what the majority of Swiss people think. Yet you bang on about respecting Swiss values. You don't know what Swiss values are because turnout was so low. In fact, one thing you do know for sure about Swiss values is that a lot of people simply didn't care about the issue, hence the low turnout.

 

I know you're not going to bring me any evidence to back up what I suspect are slightly racist and discriminatory views, so I'll end with this. The discerning amongst the readers may benefit.

 

Those who are more astute in their thinking will be able to identify this as an example of the dangers of direct democracy. Where mass politics is involved, minorities are always in danger. What protects the rights of minorities is the system. Perhaps 60 or 70 years ago, being homosexual was considered an abomination in many European countries. If referenda were used to determine what rights gay people had back then, you would no doubt have seen homosexuals having almost no rights at all, because the public perception against their lifestyle was so hostile. But what protected this minority was the refusal to give in to mass politics. Governments upheld the rights of a minority who were unpopular because that is what a democracy holds as most valuable. With this in mind, you can see that the Swiss system has failed to protect the rights of a minority who happen to be unpopular at the present time. They now have less rights because they belong to a minority who happen to follow the wrong religion. Those who hold the rather silly view of "it's not a big deal, they can still build Masjids" are ignoring the fact that Muslims have been singled out, which is discrimination and undemocratic.

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Yes, which is what Swiss and Europeans Muslims do. The core value is to obey the law. But you want more than that. Not only obey the law (which is the core value) but to immitate the natives.

No, your statements are stupid. What you said about the Swiss was stupid. What you said about European Muslims was stupid. Are you going to provide any evidence for anything you said in your first post?

Yes I would. You gonna give us any evidence for these 'facts'? Show me what your using that says events in Europe were a determining factor for the minority of Swiss who voted for the ban?

I demand the protection of minorities from mass politics. The issue here is that Switzerland is a democratic nation, which claims to uphold democratic values. Yet their system has allowed a minority to be victims. They have not said cathedrals or synogoues cannot be constructed, they've specifically singled out the 300,000 Muslim population.

 

Are you going to give us evidence for your facts other than what you interpret to be the motivations of the Swiss in passing this law? "Core Values" are more than just obeying the law.

 

Anyway, your half baked thinking has been exposed. You are unable to justify your claim that 'shrill' demands of European Muslims amongst other things were a determining factor in the Swiss vote. You've not acknowledged that only 57% of the 53% who bothered to vote pushed the ban through, meaning this wasn't really a reflection of the Swiss people at all. It exposes the farcical nature of referenda, when only a quarter of the people are needed to push legislation through because of a lack of turnout.

 

If his thinking is half-baked, then yours must not be baked at all.

 

 

 

I'm not from Saudi Arabia, so they are not 'my people'. I'm from the UK. Try to focus.

 

You are defending Muslims in Switzerland and Muslims are your people, no? Saudi Arabia is also Muslim therefore they are your people and my example is valid. By your logic you shouldn't judge the Swiss as they are not your people

 

Justify this claim by explaining what you mean by core values and why immigrants must follow it. I see you didn't refute anything I said above. Liberal democracies allow people to choose their own lifestyle without coercion or force. Do you not like this democratic value?

 

They do and legally people can for the most part do whatever the hell they want. I simply stated that people will be resistant to change and things like this are to be expected, change caused by Muslims is the cause and ban's like this are the effect.

 

No, you don't. Again, in a democracy you can live how you want. If one abides by the law they can not possibly encrouch on other people rights. Muslims living as Muslims, Seikhs living as Seikhs, Buddhists living as Buddhists under the law do not infringe anyone else's rights. Swiss Muslims were abiding by the law.

 

I'll simplify this for you, How things works on paper and in practice are two different things. Say for example i live in a very conservative Southern US suburb and i openly announce that i am gay and have multiple sexual partners (just to clarify i am not gay), i will no doubt face anger and scorn from the people there, even though i am perfectly within my rights. The same story applies with Muslims in Switzerland

 

 

And that's just the way it should be, eh?

 

I wish it didn't have to be but unfortunately it does. You might want Islam and Sharia around the globe, but i don't.

 

My entire point is that Swiss Muslims are not the poor innocent blameless people you like to portray them as. Just as the Swiss are not the racist rich white bankers you portray them as.

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Josh , it seems your temperment is giving wasy to anger , as your posts are increasingly ad hominem . You insist on an anwer as to what ?, why only a percentage of the Swiss actually voted ? That's certainly not a-typical, as in any country in any election , only a percentile of eligible voters show up at polls. So is that what you are attempting to be foundatiuon for you argument ? If so , it's nonsense . What counts is that a majority of those who did show up for the vote , voted for the ban .

Sorry Josh , that's the way Democracies work , you may not like that , so don't go to Switzerland to live . Do you know the percentage of US voters who turned out at the polls for the last election ?

You seem to be annoyed Josh , that a free people , in a free society , exercised their freedom and made a sovereign choice . It does not impinge on anyone's freedom , only banning a construction . I think you're just biased against non-muslims Josh, and you think everyone should think and feel as you , a muslim feel .

 

The world dont work that way Josh , atleast the free world that is .

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Its rather ironic how non-Muslims on a Muslim channel are telling Muslims to imitate and "assimilate". I wonder what they would think if Muslims started banning the crosses and other structures of churches in the Muslim world. Or the "architecture" of Buddhist temples. You want us to assimilate. Yet how many Westerners and Christians assimilate to the Muslim world when they live there?

Edited by mhussain

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I don't think anyone has requested 'imitation'. The argument seems to be about immigrants, not just people who happen to live in another culture. I do think the argument is a bit black-and-white, as immigrants always change a host culture as well as being changed by it. If you are going to allow any immigration you have to accept that. However, there is a valid point that non-Muslim religious buildings are subject to discriminatory restrictions in some (most?) Muslim-majority countries, so those condemning the Swiss must also condemn those Muslim-majority countries.

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Its rather ironic how non-Muslims on a Muslim channel are telling Muslims to imitate and "assimilate". I wonder what they would think if Muslims started banning the crosses and other structures of churches in the Muslim world. Or the "architecture" of Buddhist temples. You want us to assimilate. Yet how many Westerners and Christians assimilate to the Muslim world when they live there?

 

 

I think you have it a bit backwards mhussain, muslims in certain countries do in fact ban crosses and other sructures, as you must well know .The word "imitate " was used in a negative manner by Josh , not a non-muslim ,[ no one has been asked to "imitate " nor has that been implied ] and the word assimulate , as it is used in this discussion , on the subject of the Swiss ban ,means merely to respect the laws and customs , as well as the sensibilities of the people of the host country. And in this case that means not attempting to change the skyline of it's cities .

 

Muslims it seems , choose to view this as a form of persecution , and it is not .

 

The Saudis themselves in certain of their own cities have banned the construction of minarets . Is that persecution ? Or is just a matter of , it's ok if we do it , but it's not ok if a non-muslim country does ?

 

Tell me mhussain or Josh , if you choose , how many muslim masjid or minarets have been destroyed in European countries in the present ? How many of said structures have been taken over and have been made christian structures ?

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Its rather ironic how non-Muslims on a Muslim channel are telling Muslims to imitate and "assimilate". I wonder what they would think if Muslims started banning the crosses and other structures of churches in the Muslim world. Or the "architecture" of Buddhist temples. You want us to assimilate. Yet how many Westerners and Christians assimilate to the Muslim world when they live there?

 

You already ban all that stuff in Muslim countries.

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Quick poll - do any Muslims think that the Taliban's blowing up the Buddha statues was justified?

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From what I know there were no longer Buddhists living around the area for a long long time, so the statues are of little value, kind of like an old Masjid in say Helsinki. If there are no muslims using the Masjid, the Finns have every right to do away with it. 'Course you can be sentimental about it, but Talibans aren't like that.

And there are plenty of Jews in Iran, Christians in Syria or Iraq - looks like they do what they like. Never heard of any non-muslim citizen in Soudi Arabia. As for guest workers, I suppose you take what you can. And the Golden Years of the Jews occurred when they were under Muslim Spain. During the Inquisition, the Jews fled to Muslim Turkey (and other places too). Many Muslims were forcedly converted and became the present day Spanish.

As for the terrorism; if you stop the Jews from massacrering the muslims (and Christians too) in Palestine and taking away their lands, we can reduce this problem by 90%.

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Destroying works of art and/or religious symbols is despicable whether or not they are 'in use'. There are no ancient Egyptians around, but destroying their pyramids and artworks would be despicable; there are no Mayans or Incas around, but detroying their temples and artworks would be despicable; there are no ancient Greeks around, but destroying their buildings and artworks would be despicable.

 

But I don't really believe that you defend the Talban's despicable vandelism.

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On the issue of destroying antiquities ,no matter the culture who created them , it is wrong . It has nothing to do with "sentamentalism " . It has more to do with an expression of supremacism on the part of those who destroy them .

As for Zain's statement about Christians "doing as they like in Iraq , Syria and Iran" ? I think one should ask the christians in those countries themselves about that .I 'm sure they would take issue with that statement .

There are in fact christians in Egypt, Turkey, and Pakistan , and their chuches are being defaced or destroyed alltogether , in addition to harrassment and persecution of their members .

 

This is a far cry from banning the construction of minarets by the Swiss . The Swiss are a christian nation , and they are "still around ' and they have every right in the world to preserve their culture and the skylines of their cities and towns . They are not harrassing muslims , nor are they confiscating or destroying their places of worship .

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From what I know there were no longer Buddhists living around the area for a long long time, so the statues are of little value, kind of like an old Masjid in say Helsinki. If there are no muslims using the Masjid, the Finns have every right to do away with it. 'Course you can be sentimental about it, but Talibans aren't like that.

And there are plenty of Jews in Iran, Christians in Syria or Iraq - looks like they do what they like. Never heard of any non-muslim citizen in Soudi Arabia. As for guest workers, I suppose you take what you can. And the Golden Years of the Jews occurred when they were under Muslim Spain. During the Inquisition, the Jews fled to Muslim Turkey (and other places too). Many Muslims were forcedly converted and became the present day Spanish.

As for the terrorism; if you stop the Jews from massacrering the muslims (and Christians too) in Palestine and taking away their lands, we can reduce this problem by 90%.

 

About Spain before the Reconquista. Jews were happy sure, but they were just as happy living under Christian rule before the Reconquista. You may be trying to say Spain was better under Muslim rule, which is of course not true. Sounds to me like someones a little angry that Charles Martel hammered the Muslim Moors in Spain into the ground (see the Battle of Tours). I would also like to add that during the time of the Reconquista when according to you the Jews would have fled Turkey was mostly under Byzantine control

 

As for the terrorism; if you stop the Jews from massacrering the muslims (and Christians too) in Palestine and taking away their lands, we can reduce this problem by 90%.

 

Blaming a small Jewish country for Muslim violence is like not doing your homework and then saying "the dog ate it". May i add that it is Muslims who constantly launch rockets into israel's territory.

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BTW zain al , Spain was invaded by the Moors , but christianity was introduced there in the first century . The original inhabitants were Iberians and basque who date back to the third millennia B.C. The name Andalucia was in reference to the Visigoths and Vandals who were driven into the northern parts of what was then called Hispania , [a name coined by the Romans inb their conquest of that land ] .

The Berbers , forced converts to Islam came from the Magreb and were a major partb of the Moorish Armies who invaded and occuppied Hispania , which they then called Al Andalus .

 

It may be politically and ideologically correct for you to state that the present day Spain is made up of muslims forced to convert to christianity , but historically it is incorrect .

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Actually, I've never managed to get a straight answer to the question 'is Spain a Muslim land that must be reconquered?' I can't see why Spain would be any less of a "Muslim land" than, say, Iseael.

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