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Anon1

Why Islam, Im Not Sure What I Want....

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It is perfectly fine for this is a discussion board so you can join in any discussion you like but would prefer next time if you would speak for yourself rather than for anyone else.

Ah, I do have that bad habit. But at least this time I was innocent, since it was my question to you. Mr. Anon1 was merely the occasion for my question.

In regards to this question there can NEVER be a scientific answer for it simply because matter has to come from somewhere it cannot just come out of nothing. That is where God comes in. EVERYTHING originates from God as well as all causes and effect (Ocassionalism). Science does'nt disaporve God at all it confirms his existance. He causes all processes to take place and regulates, controls and creates, shapes, forms and causes everything that we can see, hear, touch, and feel around us as.

Yes, I understand that to be the traditional theistic answer, but it doesn't seem all that different from me than to say it came from the events of the big bang. Both answers are merely positing a name to arbitrarily end the questions implied infinite regression. The virtue of the scientific answer, if it can be called that, is that it at least admits to ignorance on the matter and doesn't try to pretend it has actually answered the question.

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PropellerAds

:sl:

 

There must be an answer regarding the beginning of creation, and since science as a whole rejects the idea of eternity and something coming from nothing (it goes against all scientific logic as we know it) then it will never have an explanation for the beginning of creation. Because the fact is, it is either one of two things:

1- There was no beginning to creation, it has always 'just been there'. Which goes against science, since according to science there is no such thing as eternity.

2- It just 'was', and just 'became' of its own accord. Which also goes against scientific logic, because science tells us that everything comes from something. And since that something is not known (and even if it was, it still wouldn't be scientifically logical, since that something would have to have come from something, and that something from something else...taking us back to 'eternity'), then the beginning of creation cannot be explained scientifically, hence, the only explanation is that it was 'created' by someone. That Someone being a divine being - God.

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:sl:

 

There must be an answer regarding the beginning of creation, and since science as a whole rejects the idea of eternity and something coming from nothing (it goes against all scientific logic as we know it) then it will never have an explanation for the beginning of creation. Because the fact is, it is either one of two things:

I wasn't aware that science had eliminated the concept of eternity. Do you have anything you could share with me on that?

And since that something is not known (and even if it was, it still wouldn't be scientifically logical, since that something would have to have come from something, and that something from something else...taking us back to 'eternity')

But why doesn't that argument apply to God? How can you dismiss alternate sources as impossible because there would be no explanation of their origins and then posit God, without explanation of his origins? I understand you don't believe God had origins, but you can't posit one eternal thing, and then dismiss another on the basis that it requires eternity.

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So why is everyone so willing to just accept god has been there forever? Everyones arguement is that for us to exist we must have had a creator...

 

But.... For god to exist.... Nope. Hes been there forever.... so where did he start?

flawed theory.

 

There's a lot of info on this thread so I don't really want to cram in anymore. It's not actually a flawed theory. Read the following thread from page 3 onwards, (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=729522&st=60"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=729522&st=60[/url] . It deals with the theory that God must have no beginning without using scripture or religion. Both sides oft the argument is given so it's worth a read.

 

It also touches on why infinity doesn't actually exist in our reality. Like irrational numbers, infinity is simply a mathematical term with no representation in the real world.

 

Anon1, have any of the answers given been satisfactory?

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Took the words out of my mouth....

 

So you refuse to answer my questions but wait for others to answer on your behalf? Have you not got your own mind to think with?

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Should he repeat it again? Your post sounds a little too aggressive, perhaps bordering on insulting.

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So why is everyone so willing to just accept god has been there forever? Everyones arguement is that for us to exist we must have had a creator...

 

But.... For god to exist.... Nope. Hes been there forever.... so where did he start?

flawed theory.

 

 

When you find out who you are and what is your purpose and where is your real home, then you will know, if The Creator Wills.

 

First step: Identify who you are and explore the secrets within yourself

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But.... For god to exist.... Nope. Hes been there forever.... so where did he start?

flawed theory.

 

 

Very well done...Thats what we have been trying to tell you all for ages. God doesnt have a begining, neither an end. There is nothing smiliar to God. If God had a start or a begining, then it is similar to humans or any other thing which is being created.

 

We muslims are praying to Allah, who doesnt have a begnining, neither an end. He is unique in every thing. He is self sufficient and does not require anything from his creation. He begetts not , neither he is begotton and there is nothing similar to God.

 

The problem you have is that you are trying to extrapulate the idea of creation to Him. Islam is unlike any other religion.

 

PS: Im sure even you do realise that you yourself is having a little bit of confusion with your own beliefs. Also, now please answer to all the previous questions that I asked you before. Lets not start it blindly leaving all other points that I have raised.. Refute every point that I raised, to prove me wrong. Not with assumptions, but with some facts that a person can stand with.

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If you are serious to know more about our stand, please do take time to read the following.

 

 

Author: Dr.Zakir Naik

 

 

 

 

CONCEPT OF GOD

 

* The Most Concise Definition of God

* Surah Ikhlas - the touchstone of theology

* What does Islam say about ‘god-men’?

* By what name do we call God?

* God does not take human form:

* God does not perform ungodly acts:

* God only performs Godly acts:

* Philosophy Of Anthropomorphism

* The Creator prepares the instruction manual

* Allah chooses Messengers:

* Each attribute of God is unique and possessed by Him alone:

* Unity of God

* Tawheed

 

The Most Concise Definition of God"Say: He is Allah,

The One and Only.

"Allah, the Eternal, Absolute.

"He begets not, nor is He begotten.

And there is none like unto Him."

[Al-Qur’an 112:1-4]

The word ‘Assamad’ is difficult to translate. It means ‘absolute existence’, which can be attributed only to Allah (swt), all other existence being temporal or conditional. It also means that Allah (swt) is not dependent on any person or thing, but all persons and things are dependent on Him.

 

Surah Ikhlas - the touchstone of theology:Surah Ikhlas (Chapter 112) of the Glorious Qur’an, is the touchstone of theology. ‘Theo’ in Greek means God and ‘logy’ means study. Thus Theology means study of God and to Muslims this four line definition of Almighty God serves as the touchstone of the study of God. Any candidate to divinity must be subjected to this ‘acid test’. Since the attributes of Allah given in this chapter are unique, false gods and pretenders to divinity can be easily dismissed using these verses.

 

What does Islam say about ‘god-men’?India is often called the land of ‘god-men’. This is due to the abundance of so-called spiritual masters in India. Many of these ‘babas’ and ‘saints’ have a large following in many countries. Islam abhors deification of any human being. To understand the Islamic stand towards such pretenders to divinity, let us analyze one such ‘god-man’, Osho Rajneesh.

 

Let us put this candidate, ‘Bhagwan’ Rajneesh, to the test of Surah Ikhlas, the touchstone of theology:

 

1.

The first criterion is "Say, He is Allah, one and only". Is Rajneesh one and only? No! Rajneesh was one among the multitude of ‘spiritual teachers’ produced by India. Some disciples of Rajneesh might still hold that Rajneesh is one and only.

2.

The second criterion is, ‘Allah is absolute and eternal’. We know from Rajneesh’s biography that he was suffering from diabetes, asthma, and chronic backache. He alleged that the U.S. Government gave him slow poison in prison. Imagine Almighty God being poisoned! Rajneesh was thus, neither absolute nor eternal.

3.

The third criterion is ‘He begets not, nor is He begotten’. We know that Rajneesh was born in Jabalpur in India and had a mother as well as a father who later became his disciples.

 

In May 1981 he went to U.S.A. and established a town called ‘Rajneeshpuram’. He later fell foul of the West and was finally arrested and asked to leave the country. He came back to India and started a commune in Pune which is now known as the ‘Osho’ commune. He died in 1990. The followers of Osho Rajneesh believe that he is Almighty God. At the ‘Osho commune’ in Pune one can find the following epitaph on his tombstone:

"Osho – never born, never died; only visited the planet Earth between 11th December 1931 to 19th January 1990."

They forget to mention that he was not granted visa for 21 countries of the world. Can a person ever imagine ‘God’ visiting the earth, and requiring a visa to enter a country! The Archbishop of Greece said that if Rajneesh had not been deported, they would have burnt his house and those of his disciples.

 

4. The fourth test, which is the most stringent is, "There is none like unto Him". The moment you can imagine or compare ‘God’ to anything, then he (the candidate to divinity) is not God. It is not possible to conjure up a mental picture of the One True God. We know that Rajneesh was a human being, having two eyes, two ears, a nose, a mouth and a white flowing beard. Photographs and posters of Rajneesh are available in plenty. The moment you can imagine or draw a mental picture of an entity, then that entity is not God.

 

Many are tempted to make anthropomorphic comparisons of God. Take for instance, Arnold Schwarzenegger, the famous body builder and Hollywood actor, who won the title of ‘Mr. Universe’, the strongest man in the world. Let us suppose that someone says that Almighty God is a thousand times stronger than Arnold Schwarzenegger. The moment you can compare any entity to God, whether the comparison is to Schwarzenegger or to King Kong, whether it is a thousand times or a million times stronger, it fails the Qur’anic criterion, "There is none like unto Him".

Thus, the ‘acid test’ cannot be passed by anyone except the One True God.

The following verse of the Glorious Qur’an conveys a similar message:

 

"No vision can grasp Him

But His grasp is over

All vision: He is

Above all comprehension,

Yet is acquainted with all things."

[Al-Qur'an 6:103]

 

By what name do we call God?The Muslims prefer calling the Supreme Creator, Allah, instead of by the English word ‘God’. The Arabic word, ‘Allah’, is pure and unique, unlike the English word ‘God’, which can be played around with.

 

If you add ‘s’ to the word God, it becomes ‘Gods’, that is the plural of God. Allah is one and singular, there is no plural of Allah. If you add ‘dess’ to the word God, it becomes ‘Goddess’ that is a female God. There is nothing like male Allah or female Allah. Allah has no gender. If you add the word ‘father’ to ‘God’ it becomes ‘God-father’. God-father means someone who is a guardian. There is no word like ‘Allah-Abba’ or ‘Allah-father’. If you add the word ‘mother’ to ‘God’, it becomes ‘God-mother’. There is nothing like ‘Allah-Ammi’, or ‘Allah-mother’ in Islam. Allah is a unique word. If you prefix tin before the word God, it becomes tin-God i.e., fake God. Allah is a unique word, which does not conjure up any mental picture nor can it be played around with. Therefore the Muslims prefer using the Arabic word ‘Allah’ for the Almighty. Sometimes, however, while speaking to the non-Muslims we may have to use the inappropriate word God, for Allah. Since the intended audience of this article is general in nature, consisting of both Muslims as well as non-Muslims, I have used the word God instead of Allah in several places in this article.

 

God does not become a human being:

God does not take human form:

Some may argue that God does not become a human being but only takes a human form. If God only takes a human form but does not become a human being, He should not possess any human qualities. We know that all the ‘God-men’, have human qualities and failings. They have all the human needs such as the need to eat, sleep, etc.

 

The worship of God in human form is therefore a logical fallacy and should be abhorred in all its forms and manifestations.

 

That is the reason why the Qur’an speaks against all forms of anthropomorphism. The Glorious Qur’an says in the following verse:

 

"There is nothing whatever like unto Him." [Al-Qur'an 42:11]

 

God does not perform ungodly acts:The attributes of Almighty God preclude any evil since God is the source of justice, mercy and truth. God can never be thought of as doing an ungodly act. Hence we cannot imagine God telling a lie, being unjust, making a mistake, forgetting things, or having any such human failings. Similarly God can do injustice if He chooses to, but He will never do it because being unjust is an ungodly act.

 

 

The Qur’an says:

 

"Allah is never unjust In the least degree." [Al-Qur'an 4:40]

 

God can be unjust if He chooses to be so, but the moment God does injustice, He ceases to be God.

 

God does not make mistakes

 

God can make mistakes if He wants to, but He does not make mistakes because making a mistake is an ungodly act. The Qur’an says:

 

"…my Lord never errs." [Holy Qur'an 20:52]

 

The moment God makes a mistake, he ceases to be God.

 

God does not forget

 

God can forget if He wants to. But God does not forget anything because forgetting is an ungodly act, which reeks of human limitations and failings. The Qur’an says:

 

"…my Lord never errs, nor forgets." [Al-Qur’an 20:52]

 

God only performs Godly acts:

 

The Islamic concept of God is that God has power over all things. The Qur’an says in several places (Al -Qur’an 2:106; 2:109; 2:284; 3:29; 16:77; and 35:1):

 

"For verily Allah has power over all things"

 

Further, the Glorious Qur’an says:

 

"Allah is the doer of all that He intends." [Al-Qura'n 85:16]

 

We must keep in mind that Allah intends only Godly acts and not ungodly acts.

 

PHILOSOPHY OF ANTHROPOMORPHISMMany religions at some point believe, directly or indirectly, in the philosophy of anthropomorphism i.e. God becoming a human. Their contention is that Almighty God is so pure and holy that He is unaware of the hardships, shortcomings and feelings of human beings. In order to set the rules for human beings, He came down to earth as a human. This deceptive logic has fooled countless millions through the ages. Let us now analyze this argument and see if it stands to reason.

The Creator prepares the instruction manual

Suppose I manufacture a video cassette recorder (VCR). Do I have to become a VCR to know what is good or what is bad for the VCR? What do I do? I write an instruction manual: "In order to watch a video cassette, insert the cassette and press the play button. In order to stop, press the stop button. If you want to fast forward press the FF button. Do not drop it from a height or it will get damaged. Do not immerse it in water or it will get spoilt". I write an instruction manual that lists the various do’s and don’ts for the machine.

 

Holy Qur’an is the instruction manual for the human being:

Similarly, our Lord and Creator Allah (swt) need not take human form to know what is good or bad for the human being. He chooses to reveal the instruction manual. The last and final instruction manual of the human beings is the Glorious Qur’an. The ‘dos’ and ‘don’ts’ for the human beings are mentioned in the Qur’an.

If you allow me to compare human beings with machines, I would say humans are more complicated than the most complex machines in the world. Even the most advanced computers, which are extremely complex, are pale in comparison to the myriad physical, psychological, genetic and social factors that affect individual and collective human life.

The more advanced the machine, greater is the need for its instruction manual. By the same logic, don’t human beings require an instruction manual by which to govern their own lives?

 

Allah chooses Messengers:

 

Allah (swt) need not come down personally for giving the instruction manual. He chooses a man amongst men to deliver the message and communicates with him at a higher level through the medium of revelations. Such chosen men are called messengers and prophets of God.

Some people are ‘blind’ and ‘deaf’:

Despite the absurdity of the philosophy of anthropomorphism, followers of many religions believe in and preach it to others. Is it not an insult to human intelligence and to the Creator who gave us this intelligence? Such people are truly ‘deaf’ and ‘blind’ despite the faculty of hearing and sight given to them by Allah. The Qur’an says:

 

"Deaf, dumb, and blind,

They will not return (to the path)." [Al-Qur'an 2:18]

 

The Bible gives a similar message in the Gospel of Matthew:

 

"Seeing they see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." [The Bible, Matthew 13:13]

 

A similar message is also given in the Hindu Scriptures in the Rigveda.

 

"There maybe someone who sees the words and yet indeed does not see them; may be another one who hears these words but indeed does not hear them." 1

[Rigveda 10:71:4]

 

All these scriptures are telling their readers that though the things are made so clear yet many people divert away from the truth.

 

Attributes of God:

 

To Allah belong the most beautiful names:

The Qur’an says:

 

"Say: Call upon Allah, or

Call upon Rahman:

By whatever name you call

Upon Him, (it is well):

For to Him belong

The Most Beautiful Names."

[Al-Qur'an 17:110]

A similar message regarding the beautiful names of Allah (swt) is repeated in the Qur’an in Surah Al-A’raf (7:180), in Surah Taha (20:8) and in Surah Al-Hashr (59:24).

 

The Qur’an gives no less than ninety-nine different attributes to Almighty Allah. The Qur’an refers to Allah as Ar-Rahman (Most Gracious), Ar-Raheem (Most Merciful) and Al-Hakeem (All Wise) among many other names. You can call Allah by any name but that name should be beautiful and should not conjure up a mental picture.

 

Each attribute of God is unique and possessed by Him alone:

 

Not only does God possess unique attributes, but also each attribute of Almighty God is sufficient to identify Him. I shall clarify this point in detail. Let us take an example of a famous personality, say Neil Armstrong. Neil Armstrong is an astronaut. The attribute of being an astronaut possessed by Neil Armstrong is correct but not unique to Neil Armstrong alone. So when one asks, who is an astronaut? The answer is, there are hundreds of people in the world who are astronauts. Neil Armstrong is an American. The attribute of being American possessed by Neil Armstrong is correct but not sufficient to identify him. So when one asks, who is an American? The answer is, there are millions of people who are American. To identify the person uniquely we must look for a unique attribute possessed by none except that person. For example, Neil Armstrong was the first human to set foot on the moon. So when one asks, who was the first man to set foot on the moon, the answer is only one, i.e. Neil Armstrong. Similarly the attribute of Almighty God should be unique. If I say God is the constructor of buildings, it is possible and true, but it is not unique. Thousands of people can construct a building. But each attribute of Allah is unique and points to none but Allah. For example, God is the creator of the universe. If someone asks who is the creator of the universe, the answer is only one, i.e. Almighty God is the Ultimate Creator. Similarly, following are some of the many unique attributes possessed by none other than the Creator of the universe, Almighty Allah:

 

"Ar-Raheem", the Most Merciful

"Ar-Rahman", the Most Gracious

"Al-Hakeem", the Most Wise

So when one asks, "Who is ‘Ar-Raheem’, (the Most Merciful)?", there can only be one answer: "Almighty Allah".

 

One attribute of God should not contradict with other attributes:

 

Besides the attribute being unique, it should not contradict other attributes. To continue with the earlier example, suppose somebody says that Neil Armstrong is an American astronaut who was the first human to set foot on the moon and was an Indian. The attribute possessed by Neil Armstrong of being the first man to set foot on the moon, is correct. But its associated quality of being an Indian, is false. Similarly if someone says that God is the Creator of the Universe and has one head, two hands, two feet, etc., the attribute (Creator of the Universe) is correct but the associated quality (in the form of human being) is wrong and false.

 

All attributes should point to the one and same God:

 

Since there is only one God, all the attributes should point to one and the same God. To say that Neil Armstrong was an American astronaut who first set foot on the moon, but he was born in 1971 is wrong. Both these unique qualities belong to one and the same person, i.e. Neil Armstrong. Similarly to say that the Creator of the universe is one God and the Cherisher is another God is absurd because God possesses all these attributes combined together.

 

Unity of GodSome polytheists argue by saying that the existence of more than one God is not illogical. Let us point out to them that if there were more than one God, they would dispute with one another, each god trying to fulfill his will against the will of the other gods. This can be seen in the mythology of the polytheistic and pantheistic religions. If a ‘God’ is defeated or unable to defeat the others, he is surely not the one true God. Also popular among polytheistic religions is the idea of many Gods, each having different responsibilities. Each one would be responsible for a part of man’s existence e.g. a Sun-God, a Rain-God, etc. This indicates that one ‘God’ is incompetent of certain acts and moreover he is also ignorant of the other Gods’ powers, duties, functions and responsibilities. There cannot be an ignorant and incapable God. If there were more than one God it would surely lead to confusion, disorder, chaos and destruction in the universe. But the universe is in complete harmony. The Glorious Qur’an says:

 

"If there were, in the heavens

And the earth, other gods

Besides Allah, there would

Have been confusion in both!

But glory to Allah,

The Lord of the Throne:

(High is He) above

What they attribute to Him!"

[Al-Qur’an 21:22]

 

If there were more than one God, they would have taken away what they created. The Qur’an says:

 

"No son did Allah beget,

Nor is there any god

Along with Him: (if there were

Many gods), behold, each god

Would have taken away

What he had created,

And some would have

Lorded it over others!

Glory to Allah! (He is free)

From the (sort of) things

They attribute to Him!"

[Al-Qur’an 23:91]

 

Thus the existence of one True, Unique, Supreme, Almighty God, is the only logical concept of God.

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Should he repeat it again? Your post sounds a little too aggressive, perhaps bordering on insulting.

 

I don't understand why you always see the need to speak on his behalf. Is he not his own person with his own mind to think with? Why do you not speak for yourself and let him speak for himself? This is a discussion board and he has chosen to be on here to discuss these matters and i have merely asked him 3 questions which you consistantly feel the need to speak for him like he has not got his own mind to speak with.

 

My post was direct and no where near aggressive. As you stated in a previous post this is certainly a bad habit of yours to always speak on behalf of others so please refrain from this and let him speak of his own mind for he is his own person and you are your own. He does'nt need protecting, we are not here to attack anyone but he is here of his own accord and free will to discuss these matters and we are having an adult debate and discussion and if he has made certain statements then all i asked of him is to answer 3 questions so let him speak or shall i say type.

Edited by hamza81

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I'm not sure why people do not want me to post in this thread. It is a debate forum, correct? It is about refuting non-Muslims, right? Does it matter which non-Muslim you refute? I haven't seen anyone agree to a one-on-one debate. In fact, there are two Muslims engaged in this discussion, and yet there seems to be an insistence that there be only one non-Muslim. If you want to have a private discussion, there is a fantastic tool at the top of the page, it is called private messaging. It is called that because it allows you to have private discussions.

 

As for whether he is his own person or not, of course he is, and if he wanted to, he could easily respond after me, disagree with me, agree with me, or any other response he wanted to give. My participation does not limit him in any way. And schoolyard taunts like your previous post hardly constitute an adult discussion. He isn't hiding behind me, and I'm not protecting him. It is an open thread and should be available to anyone to answer. That's how a public forum works. If you have a problem with it, I suggest you find a new medium to carry on your discussions.

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I'm not sure why people do not want me to post in this thread. It is a debate forum, correct? It is about refuting non-Muslims, right? Does it matter which non-Muslim you refute? I haven't seen anyone agree to a one-on-one debate. In fact, there are two Muslims engaged in this discussion, and yet there seems to be an insistence that there be only one non-Muslim. If you want to have a private discussion, there is a fantastic tool at the top of the page, it is called private messaging. It is called that because it allows you to have private discussions.

 

As for whether he is his own person or not, of course he is, and if he wanted to, he could easily respond after me, disagree with me, agree with me, or any other response he wanted to give. My participation does not limit him in any way. And schoolyard taunts like your previous post hardly constitute an adult discussion. He isn't hiding behind me, and I'm not protecting him. It is an open thread and should be available to anyone to answer. That's how a public forum works. If you have a problem with it, I suggest you find a new medium to carry on your discussions.

 

The first time around you admitted that it was a fault of yours to speak on behalf of others. Do you want to protect him in some way because you can relate to his beliefs? You could clearly see that i was trying to get answers out of him and yet you insist to play a fatherly role by protecting him from those questions but why? He is here to learn and debate aswell as discuss then give him a chance to. If you keep speaking on his behalf then he feels he does'nt have to respond. I don't understand what your problem is and why you have to behave in this way?

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Yes, and I also said I wasn't guilty of it that time. Go back and read if you doubt me.

 

Second, I explicitly said I wasn't defending him. He can talk for himself, but its an open discussion and if I want to answer a question I don't have to wait for it to be directed towards me.

 

Third, it's up to him to whether he is going to answer you or not. Rather ironic that you attribute the father role to me when it is you who is treating him like a child, chastising him for not answering you. Honestly, I don't care if he converts to Islam or not. That's his decision.

 

Finally, I'm not speaking on his behalf. I'm speaking on my behalf. The views expressed in my posts are mine unless otherwise indicated. As for him not having to respond, I'm afraid I'm going to have to burst your bubble and inform you that he didn't have to respond anyway, regardless of whether I post or not. And how am I behaving? Like someone who is posting on an open internet forum? Aren't you the one telling people not to post? I would think that would be the more unusual behavior for a forum.

 

Anyway, I'm done, this is off topic and if you want to carry it on, you can PM me.

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I think Anon1 is having some pesonal problems with his faith and he need some answers from muslim"S". May be thats the reason he opened the thread so that he would get the responses from the muslims . I think the muslim participants feel it difficult to keep track on their discussions and their concentration on Anon1's responses and answers. Eventhough you say muslims dont have to reply to your posts, but naturally they would respond to what is said against their believes. hehehehe

However, there are other threads which is open for all to post. See through the pages and enjoy.

 

For all : I urge and remind all our members to keep this forum friendly and if you have got some personal issue, kindly solve it through the private message. Not in the open threads as it may promote hartedness.

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Yes, and I also said I wasn't guilty of it that time. Go back and read if you doubt me.

 

Second, I explicitly said I wasn't defending him. He can talk for himself, but its an open discussion and if I want to answer a question I don't have to wait for it to be directed towards me.

 

Third, it's up to him to whether he is going to answer you or not. Rather ironic that you attribute the father role to me when it is you who is treating him like a child, chastising him for not answering you. Honestly, I don't care if he converts to Islam or not. That's his decision.

 

Finally, I'm not speaking on his behalf. I'm speaking on my behalf. The views expressed in my posts are mine unless otherwise indicated. As for him not having to respond, I'm afraid I'm going to have to burst your bubble and inform you that he didn't have to respond anyway, regardless of whether I post or not. And how am I behaving? Like someone who is posting on an open internet forum? Aren't you the one telling people not to post? I would think that would be the more unusual behavior for a forum.

 

Anyway, I'm done, this is off topic and if you want to carry it on, you can PM me.

 

I'm actually happy that non Muslims like yourself take part in these forums and i want you to take part in every discussion and have never stopped you from taking part in any discussion but what i don't appreciate is when you speak for other people. If you wanted to answer these questions for yourself that is absolutley fine but you don't need to feel the need to 'protect' people who have similar beliefs to yours. Let them speak rather than answering questions for them. He made some statements and i merely asked him some questions to make him think and i did it in a direct and respectful manner so i don;t know where this 'aggressiveness that you claim has come from? Are direct answers aggressive? One cannot tell the tone of a person through writing maybe that is why you percieve aggression because of the directness of the question but that is your own perception.

 

Clearly science has and never will have the answers to those questions simply because of the fact that matter had to come from somewhere it cannot come out of the blue. If one says "Where did God come from who created him?" I can say where did the first matter come from and who created it"? Something must have been there first in order to create that matter in the first place so the only explanation can be that a super being created the first matter in order for the universe to be created. This superbeing also continues to create and destroy and cause all processes to occur the way they do because nothing can have a mind of its own and create itself how it wants. It has to have something controlling it and causing it to behave and act the way it does therefore there can be no other explanation other than the existance of a superbeing who has created everything we can see, hear, touch and feel.

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Can you give me an explanation in your own words to these 3 questions: 1. Where did the first living organism come from? 1. Where did the first human being from from? 3. Also where did the first matter in existance in the universe come from? I look forward to the reply IN YOUR OWN WORDS. Thanks

 

Hamza... It is a simple answer, i do not know and I do not claim to know.

 

That is the difference between me and you.

 

I just read 'The God Delusion'.

 

I highly recommend it...

 

Also, i dont have any issues with my faith as i am an Atheist, i do not have faith.

 

faith [feɪθ] n

 

1. strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence.

 

The Evidence that is the basis of scientific theories removes my need for faith.

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Hamza... It is a simple answer, i do not know and I do not claim to know.

 

That is the difference between me and you.

 

I just read 'The God Delusion'.

 

I highly recommend it...

 

Also, i dont have any issues with my faith as i am an Atheist, i do not have faith.

 

faith [feɪθ] n

 

1. strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence.

 

The Evidence that is the basis of scientific theories removes my need for faith.

 

I would have to say Atheism is just as much a belief as any religion, so you must have faith in no God because there is lack of evidence proving there is no God.

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I would have to say Atheism is just as much a belief as any religion, so you must have faith in no God because there is lack of evidence proving there is no God.

It does not require faith to disbelieve something when there is no proof that it is not there. Belief doesn't work that way. We believe in things we have proof for, and it is insufficient for belief to simply not have evidence against something. I have no evidence against a whole host of things I consider fictional. I believe they are fictional because there is no proof for them.

 

You could say that the Atheist is ignoring evidence, but you cannot say that they are acting on faith because there is no proof against the existence of something.

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It does not require faith to disbelieve something when there is no proof that it is not there. Belief doesn't work that way. We believe in things we have proof for, and it is insufficient for belief to simply not have evidence against something. I have no evidence against a whole host of things I consider fictional. I believe they are fictional because there is no proof for them.

 

You could say that the Atheist is ignoring evidence, but you cannot say that they are acting on faith because there is no proof against the existence of something.

It is faith because no one was around at the beginning of everything to KNOW what started it all so it is belief.

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It is faith because no one was around at the beginning of everything to KNOW what started it all so it is belief.

That's right. But you can't prove a negative. I can't tell you there are no red swans, because there could be a red swan out there that neither of us is aware of. But I can prove to you that there is a white swan. All I have to do is bring you to one. This is how proof works. This is why it doesn't require faith to not believe in something that you have no proof for, because rational belief is based on whether we have positive proof, not the absence of contradicting proof.

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Well, here I think we agree. Most of use are incapable of the complex mathematical and experimental manipulations that go into such science, and I suspect there are few who are even that interested in it. So for these people, regardless of whether they are atheist or not, their acceptance of the latest scientific theory is a matter of faith in the scientists, and more to the point, the scientific community who is evaluating the work of these scientists. I personally think their faith is not misplaced, seeing that science has accomplished some rather amazing things in the relatively short time it has been using present techniques and methodologies. But nevertheless, it still remains a matter of faith.

 

For those very few individuals who are capable of understanding and utilizing these theories, I believe, rather than faith, it is a matter of inductive reasoning, of seeking an explanation that can account for the most observations while remaining as simple as possible. So, clearly it isn't a matter of certainty, as though they had arrived at their conclusion through some deductive reasoning, but then nothing in science (or any statement that extrapolates about observed phenomena for that matter) carries with it absolute certainty, and so this is hardly a criticism to say that they cannot prove something beyond our ability to doubt.

Edited by the sad clown

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I just read 'The God Delusion'.

 

I highly recommend it...

 

Also, i dont have any issues with my faith as i am an Atheist, i do not have faith.

 

faith [feɪθ] n

 

1. strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence.

 

The Evidence that is the basis of scientific theories removes my need for faith.

 

 

Quran is the word of Allah, and it revealed as a guidence to the whole human kind. It is highly recommended for you. The way you have read your book, I wish you would read that too. Compare both and judge for yourself.

 

As per your definition of faith. May be your definition of faith applies to all other types of faith including ur faith of believing non-existence of a creator. However, our faith is based upon truth which can be established and which can stand against the challenge of time and scicence. You have said, science have eliminated the need for you to believe in a creator. Now tell me, which is the scientific evidence that proves you that there is no God?

 

Further, if the Quran is a fake and if it was the work of a man, why dont you defeat the challenges of the Quran and prove it to the whole world?

 

Lastly, go back to the previous post"s" between me and you and think about it for a while.

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Ok...

 

I believe in evolution because there is Evidence for it, it is Scientific Theory.

 

Scientific theory cannot be a scientific theory if it has any contradictions, I believe the universe started because their is evidence to say that the universe it constantly expanding, therefore it must have a start.... What if there wasnt a start? I can accept that as a possibility... what if the universe has been here for an eternity? You say God has but why can you apply that arguement to the universe?

 

However the atheist thinks the universe started is also faith as they cannot prove it.

 

Do not assume that all Atheists believe the same thing, Atheism is the absence of belief in the existence of deities, that is all we have in common.

 

It is scientific theory that everything must have a start, there is no contradicting evidence, therefore i believe that the universe must have a started as somepoint in history.I do not claim to 'know' that this is the truth, evidence is in its favour so i think it is the most justifiable answer.

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