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Congratulating An Atheist

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by Dr. Zakir Naik

 

CONGRATULATING AN ATHEIST

 

Normally, when I meet an atheist, the first thing I like to do is to congratulate him and say, " My special congratulations to you", because most of the people who believe in God are doing blind belief - he is a Christian, because his father is a Christian; he is a Hindu, because his father is a Hindu; the majority of the people in the world are blindly following the religion of their fathers. An atheist, on the other hand, even though he may belong to a religious family, uses his intellect to deny the existence of God; what ever concept or qualities of God he may have learnt in his religion may not seem to be logical to him.

 

My Muslim brothers may question me, "Zakir, why are you congratulating an atheist?" The reason that I am congratulating an atheist is because he agrees with the first part of the Shahada i.e. the Islamic Creed, ‘La ilaaha’ - meaning ‘there is no God’. So half my job is already done; now the only part left is ‘il lallah’ i.e. ‘BUT Allah’ which I shall do Insha Allah. With others (who are not atheists) I have to first remove from their minds the wrong concept of God they may have and then put the correct concept of one true God.

 

LOGICAL CONCEPT OF GOD

 

My first question to the atheist will be: "What is the definition of God?" For a person to say there is no God, he should know what is the meaning of God. If I hold a book and say that ‘this is a pen’, for the opposite person to say, ‘it is not a pen’, he should know what is the definition of a pen, even if he does not know nor is able to recognise or identify the object I am holding in my hand. For him to say this is not a pen, he should at least know what a pen means. Similarly for an atheist to say ‘there is no God’, he should at least know the concept of God. His concept of God would be derived from the surroundings in which he lives. The god that a large number of people worship has got human qualities - therefore he does not believe in such a god. Similarly a Muslim too does not and should not believe in such false gods.

If a non-Muslim believes that Islam is a merciless religion with something to do with terrorism; a religion which does not give rights to women; a religion which contradicts science; in his limited sense that non-Muslim is correct to reject such Islam. The problem is he has a wrong picture of Islam. Even I reject such a false picture of Islam, but at the same time, it becomes my duty as a Muslim to present the correct picture of Islam to that non-Muslim i.e. Islam is a merciful religion, it gives equal rights to the women, it is not incompatible with logic, reason and science; if I present the correct facts about Islam, that non-Muslim may Inshallah accept Islam.

 

Similarly the atheist rejects the false gods and the duty of every Muslim is to present the correct concept of God which he shall Insha Allah not refuse.

(You may refer to my article, ‘Concept of God in Islam’, for more details)

 

QUR’AN AND MODERN SCIENCE

 

The methods of proving the existence of God with usage of the material provided in the ‘Concept of God in Islam’ to an atheist may satisfy some but not all.

 

Many atheists demand a scientific proof for the existence of God. I agree that today is the age of science and technology. Let us use scientific knowledge to kill two birds with one stone, i.e. to prove the existence of God and simultaneously prove that the Qur’an is a revelation of God.

If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, is shown to an atheist or any person and then a question is asked, " Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object? After little bit of thinking, he will reply, ‘the creator of that object.’ Some may say ‘the producer’ while others may say ‘the manufacturer.’ What ever answer the person gives, keep it in your mind, the answer will always be either the creator, the producer, the manufacturer or some what of the same meaning, i.e. the person who has made it or created it. Don’t grapple with words, whatever answer he gives, the meaning will be same, therefore accept it.

 

SCIENTIFIC FACTS MENTIONED IN THE QUR’AN: for details on this subject please refer to my book, ‘THE QUR’AN AND MODERN SCIENCE – COMPATIBLE OR INCOMPATIBLE?

 

THEORY OF PROBABILITY

 

In mathematics there is a theory known as ‘Theory of Probability’. If you have two options, out of which one is right, and one is wrong, the chances that you will chose the right one is half, i.e. one out of the two will be correct. You have 50% chances of being correct. Similarly if you toss a coin the chances that your guess will be correct is 50% (1 out of 2) i.e. 1/2. If you toss a coin the second time, the chances that you will be correct in the second toss is again 50% i.e. half. But the chances that you will be correct in both the tosses is half multiplied by half (1/2 x 1/2) which is equal to 1/4 i.e. 50% of 50% which is equal to 25%. If you toss a coin the third time, chances that you will be correct all three times is (1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2) that is 1/8 or 50% of 50% of 50% that is 12½%.

 

A dice has got six sides. If you throw a dice and guess any number between 1 to 6, the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/6. If you throw the dice the second time, the chances that your guess will be correct in both the throws is (1/6 x 1/6) which is equal to 1/36. If you throw the dice the third time, the chances that all your three guesses are correct is (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6) is equal to 1/216 that is less than 0.5 %.

 

Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qur’an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur’an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.

 

At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

 

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.

 

The Qur’an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur’an is Divine.

 

CREATOR IS THE AUTHOR OF THE QUR’AN

 

The only logical answer to the question as to who could have mentioned all these scientific facts 1400 years ago before they were discovered, is exactly the same answer initially given by the atheist or any person, to the question who will be the first person who will be able to tell the mechanism of the unknown object. It is the ‘CREATOR’, the producer, the Manufacturer of the whole universe and its contents. In the English language He is ‘God’, or more appropriate in the Arabic language, ‘Allah’.

 

QUR’AN IS A BOOK OF SIGNS AND NOT SCIENCE

 

Let me remind you that the Qur’an is not a book of Science, ‘S-C-I-E-N-C-E’ but a book of Signs ‘S-I-G-N-S’ i.e. a book of ayaats. The Qur’an contains more than 6,000 ayaats, i.e. ‘signs’, out of which more than a thousand speak about Science. I am not trying to prove that the Qur’an is the word of God using scientific knowledge as a yard stick because any yardstick is supposed to be more superior than what is being checked or verified. For us Muslims the Qur’an is the Furqan i.e. criteria to judge right from wrong and the ultimate yardstick which is more superior to scientific knowledge.

But for an educated man who is an atheist, scientific knowledge is the ultimate test which he believes in. We do know that science many a times takes ‘U’ turns, therefore I have restricted the examples only to scientific facts which have sufficient proof and evidence and not scientific theories based on assumptions. Using the ultimate yardstick of the atheist, I am trying to prove to him that the Qur’an is the word of God and it contains the scientific knowledge which is his yardstick which was discovered recently, while the Qur’an was revealed 1400 year ago. At the end of the discussion, we both come to the same conclusion that God though superior to science, is not incompatible with it.

 

SCIENCE IS ELIMINATING MODELS OF GOD BUT NOT GOD

 

Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God. Scientists today are eliminating models of God, but they are not eliminating God. If you translate this into Arabic, it is La illaha illal la, There is no god, (god with a small ‘g’ that is fake god) but God (with a capital ‘G’).

 

Surah Fussilat:

 

"Soon We will show them our signs in the (farthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?"

[Al-Quran 41:53]

 

Reference: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetirf(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/irf/comparativereligion/index.htm"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetirf(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/irf/comparativereligion/index.htm[/url]

 

Contributed by Hamza81

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PropellerAds

I think I have seen this before. I'm not sure where, but it seems familiar to me. I want to preface my response by saying that I do not believe any of my answers constitutes an argument against either the Quran or Islam in general.

 

LOGICAL CONCEPT OF GOD

 

My first question to the atheist will be: "What is the definition of God?"

A supernatural being, perfect and immortal, said to be the creator/designer of the universe, and who cares sufficiently about humanity to communicate with us the path of perfection and eternal life.

QUR’AN AND MODERN SCIENCE

 

If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, is shown to an atheist or any person and then a question is asked, " Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object? After little bit of thinking, he will reply, ‘the creator of that object.’ Some may say ‘the producer’ while others may say ‘the manufacturer.’ What ever answer the person gives, keep it in your mind, the answer will always be either the creator, the producer, the manufacturer or some what of the same meaning, i.e. the person who has made it or created it.

What if they said, I don't know? If it is an object, then it isn't clear where it has come from. A machine on the other hand is typically something that is manufactured, so without any contradicting evidence, I would probably agree that the manufacturer made it. However, if it was something that no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, this judgment would be very tentative. Making such a determination in the face of such glaring ignorance is always more guess than deduction.

SCIENTIFIC FACTS MENTIONED IN THE QUR’AN: for details on this subject please refer to my book, ‘THE QUR’AN AND MODERN SCIENCE – COMPATIBLE OR INCOMPATIBLE?

 

THEORY OF PROBABILITY

 

Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qur’an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur’an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.

 

At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

Except the idea of the world being round was also available at that time, and had been since at least the 6th century BC. Here is the wikipedia article on it:

The concept of a spherical Earth dates back to around the 6th century BCE in ancient Greek philosophy.[1] It remained a matter of philosophical speculation until the 3rd century BCE when Hellenistic astronomy established the spherical shape of the earth as a physical given.

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

This too was information that was available:

Among the first in the Western world to offer a scientific explanation for the Moon was the Greek philosopher Anaxagoras (d. 428 BC), who reasoned that the Sun and Moon were both giant spherical rocks, and that the latter reflected the light of the former. His atheistic view of the heavens was one cause for his imprisonment and eventual exile.

Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water.

Except that every living thing isn't made up of water. Life is a complex of various chemicals, including H2O. Nevertheless, even the idea that everything is made of water is not a new one, but is first attributed to Thales of Miletus (624 BC–ca. 546 BC).

If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.

Those would be amazing guesses, if they were guesses. However, there was precedence for each of them, and even evidence supporting those conclusions (we'll broaden the life is made of water, to water is a principle element in life). This would make it considerable less amazing, both as a guess and as a conclusion to have arrived at.

Edited by the sad clown

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<Except that every living thing isn't made up of water. Life is a complex of various chemicals, including H2O. >

 

Wrong & rather silly really., every living thing that we can see consists of cells, here a brief overview of what is inside every cell..

 

Quote:

 

Chemical Composition of Living Cells

Overview

• Hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, carbon, sulfur, and phosphorus normally makeup more

than 99% of the mass of living cells.

• Ninety-nine percent of the molecules inside living cells are water molecules.

 

Cells generally contain many more protein molecules than DNA molecules, yet DNA is typically the largest biomolecule in the cell. About 99% of cellular molecules are water molecules, with water normally accounting for approximately 70% of the total wet-weight of the cell. Although water is obviously important to the vitality of all living cells, the bulk of our attention is usually focused on the other 1% of biomolecules.

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yettetonnm(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/pics/IndependentSamplePages/1-893441-42-3.pdf"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yettetonnm(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/pics/IndependentSam...893441-42-3.pdf[/url]

 

<Nevertheless, even the idea that everything is made of water is not a new one, but is first attributed to Thales of Miletus (624 BC–ca. 546 BC).>

 

Could well be, mathematically it may be possible to have one or two ‘guesses’ correct, but to have multiple ‘correct’ guesses and zero incorrect or inconsistent statement is the point here. Sure you and Wattle could assign every single ‘correct’ statement to some historic figures but how did the author of the Quran manage to pick only the correct ones and skipped all the other numerous incorrect and inconsistent statements from those very same sources?

 

Can you explain this?

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=729877&st=0&p=1207209entry1207209"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic...p;#entry1207209[/url]

 

ard

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<Except that every living thing isn't made up of water. Life is a complex of various chemicals, including H2O. >

 

Wrong & rather silly really., every living thing that we can see consists of cells, here a brief overview of what is inside every cell..

 

Quote:

 

Chemical Composition of Living Cells

Overview

• Hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, carbon, sulfur, and phosphorus normally makeup more

than 99% of the mass of living cells.

• Ninety-nine percent of the molecules inside living cells are water molecules.

 

Cells generally contain many more protein molecules than DNA molecules, yet DNA is typically the largest biomolecule in the cell. About 99% of cellular molecules are water molecules, with water normally accounting for approximately 70% of the total wet-weight of the cell. Although water is obviously important to the vitality of all living cells, the bulk of our attention is usually focused on the other 1% of biomolecules.

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yettetonnm(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/pics/IndependentSamplePages/1-893441-42-3.pdf"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yettetonnm(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/pics/IndependentSam...893441-42-3.pdf[/url]

No, it was neither wrong nor silly. In fact, you agreed with me. I don't see what you are even arguing against on this matter.

Could well be, mathematically it may be possible to have one or two ‘guesses’ correct, but to have multiple ‘correct’ guesses and zero incorrect or inconsistent statement is the point here. Sure you and Wattle could assign every single ‘correct’ statement to some historic figures but how did the author of the Quran manage to pick only the correct ones and skipped all the other numerous incorrect and inconsistent statements from those very same sources?

I haven't even discussed the mathematical possibilities of getting guesses correct. We haven't even gotten beyond the point of whether we should consider them to be guesses.

Can you explain this?

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=729877&st=0&p=1207209entry1207209"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic...p;#entry1207209[/url]

No, because it hinges entirely on translating and interpreting the Arabic of the Quran, and I am incapable of the former and unqualified for the latter. Sorry.

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<No, it was neither wrong nor silly. In fact, you agreed with me. I don't see what you are even arguing against on this matter.>

You wrote earlier: "Except that every living thing isn't made up of water"

That kind of giving the impression that the statement made by the Quran is somehow incorrect. Science has well and truly established that water makes up of almost 70% of total net weight of a cell of every living creature. The description or statement from the Quran with reagrd to this matter is thus consistent with science.

 

ard

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I hate having to quote myself, but here is what I said:

Except that every living thing isn't made up of water. Life is a complex of various chemicals, including H2O.

My statement is compatible with the statement that living organisms are made up of 70% water. 70% is not 100%. Living things are not made up of water. They are made up of a number of elements, with water being one of the principle ones. Your statements agree with this, and so there is no argument on this matter.

 

As I said in the beginning, I am not arguing against the Quran. If you think the Quran says that everything is made of water, literally, then the problem is with you, not the Quran. If you don't believe this literally, then congratulations, we agree, end of discussion.

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<As I said in the beginning, I am not arguing against the Quran.>

 

Yeah sure..

 

<My statement is compatible with the statement that living organisms are made up of 70% water. 70% is not 100%.>

 

What you are implying above is that Quran says every living thing is made of 100% water otherwise you would not have replied on the subject in the first place. As for even implying the 100% argument, is a joke really but I guess you know that..

 

<No, because it hinges entirely on translating and interpreting the Arabic of the Quran, and I am incapable of the former and unqualified for the latter. Sorry.>

 

Really? A couple of Arabic words to translate and a simple google search would turn up a dozen or so free on line dictionaries to verify the given translations used? Sorry to hear about that too..make sure to check out the final installation for an explanation…

 

ard

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Except the idea of the world being round was also available at that time, and had been since at least the 6th century BC. Here is the wikipedia article on it:

 

And the Greeks had made a pretty accurate calculation of its diameter unsing impeccable science.

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What you are implying above is that Quran says every living thing is made of 100% water otherwise you would not have replied on the subject in the first place. As for even implying the 100% argument, is a joke really but I guess you know that..

If someone told me ice was made of water, should I think it is 70% water? I said what I said because of how it was phrased. Perhaps I was too literal. My apologies. However, you should have understood from the rest of what I said that if it wasn't meant literally, then I was in agreement. You could have chosen to accept this agreement and move on. You didn't and it doesn't speak well of your charitableness.

Really? A couple of Arabic words to translate and a simple google search would turn up a dozen or so free on line dictionaries to verify the given translations used? Sorry to hear about that too..make sure to check out the final installation for an explanation…

Sorry. I've worked with multiple languages, and you are asking me to make a decision about something as complex as this by just looking at a few words with online dictionaries? That's hilarious. By the way, what would you think I meant by "That's hilarious" from an online dictionary? That I thought it was funny?

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Except the idea of the world being round was also available at that time, and had been since at least the 6th century BC. Here is the wikipedia article on it:

The concept of a spherical Earth dates back to around the 6th century BCE in ancient Greek philosophy.[1] It remained a matter of philosophical speculation until the 3rd century BCE when Hellenistic astronomy established the spherical shape of the earth as a physical given.

 

This too was information that was available:

Among the first in the Western world to offer a scientific explanation for the Moon was the Greek philosopher Anaxagoras (d. 428 BC),

 

Nevertheless, even the idea that everything is made of water is not a new one, but is first attributed to Thales of Miletus (624 BC–ca. 546 BC).

 

What if a person who is illeterate and who have not met or studied from them dictated those words to his scribes?

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What if a person who is illeterate and who have not met or studied from them dictated those words to his scribes?

One need not be literate. Oral tradition is sufficient, and such knowledge can be passed down a number of ways. I'm not going to speculate though. Perhaps God did tell him all of these things. I am not in a position to say he didn't get it from God. I am merely offering plausible alternatives. I realize this may seem hard to believe, but I really am not interested in disproving Islam or the Quran. I don't think I am in a position of doing so. My position on the matter is to let people believe what they will, so long as it is consistent with their own belief system. Especially with something like religion, from which many people receive comfort, joy, and a sense of purpose and meaning. Why would I want to take that away from them? I have no reason to do so, and I certainly have no intention of doing it.

 

My arguments are not that Islam or the Quran is wrong. I am arguing against the idea that another belief system is ridiculous or illogical. But I do not argue that other belief systems is true or that the Quran is wrong. I cannot prove that and so I remain silent on the matter, or at least I should. Feel free to point out to me if I fail to live up to this.

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Dear sad clown.

Some points that need to be noted

 

1.The life of prophet Muhamed (S.A.W) is written down and every single bit is being recorded.

 

2.Had he been met with some person or like that, or had he heard such things, it is very likely that his companions would here that. It is because his companions was with him all the time.

 

3. We are trying to prove that Islam is the right path and well before you, Islam clearly says that " There is no compulsion in religion" surathul baqara chapter 2 verse 256, therefore, they have the freedom to believe or disbelieve.

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Dear sad clown.

Some points that need to be noted

 

1.The life of prophet Muhamed (S.A.W) is written down and every single bit is being recorded.

Sorry, I am ignorant of these things. Were they recorded from his birth? If not, at what age did his life start to be recorded?

2.Had he been met with some person or like that, or had he heard such things, it is very likely that his companions would here that. It is because his companions was with him all the time.

I am sorry, but I won't be able to debate this with you. I simply am not in a position to evaluate the merits of hagiography of Muhamed (saw).

3. We are trying to prove that Islam is the right path and well before you, Islam clearly says that " There is no compulsion in religion" surathul baqara chapter 2 verse 256, therefore, they have the freedom to believe or disbelieve.

I understand that. And while not wishing to disappoint you, I am not currently interested in converting to Islam. I do not feel a need for it, and it would be an unmitigated disaster for my family life. I am having a difficult enough time with my wife over leaving Christianity. You cannot imagine how much more devastating converting to Islam would be. My wife continues to try and convert me back. I had a frustrating and saddening discussion with her on this just last night, and I really could not deal with paining her more than I already am. You want me to convert to Islam? You're going to have to either pray that God radically changes my heart, or else changes my wifes. I do not know which of the two would be the greater miracle.

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Sorry, I am ignorant of these things. Were they recorded from his birth? If not, at what age did his life start to be recorded?

Yes, since birth, but better to say well before his birth as the biography of his ancestors were also written down.

 

 

I am not currently interested in converting to Islam. I do not feel a need for it, and it would be an unmitigated disaster for my family life.

 

Similar words were said by early meccans at the time of the prophet specially by cheifs of Mecca. For example, Islam and prophet Muhammed was an enemy to Umar bin Al Khattab (R.A) the second calip of the Islamic ummah. However, with Allah's mercy he converted to Islam

 

REad more about him : (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=205"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=205[/url]

also in : (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetreadingislam(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1154235102872&pagename=Zone-English-Discover_Islam%2FDIELayout"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetreadingislam(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/servlet/Satell...lam%2FDIELayout[/url]

 

Islam means peace aquired by submitting your will to God. A one word definition in arabic is called as Islam. A person who bows his will only to Allah (Swt) is called as a muslim in arabic. How come you dont want Islam when it has got the beautiful teachings that could solve the problems of humanity.

 

I am having a difficult enough time with my wife over leaving Christianity. You cannot imagine how much more devastating converting to Islam would be. My wife continues to try and convert me back. I had a frustrating and saddening discussion with her on this just last night, and I really could not deal with paining her more than I already am. You want me to convert to Islam? You're going to have to either pray that God radically changes my heart, or else changes my wifes. I do not know which of the two would be the greater miracle.

 

Your answer in in the quran

 

Surathul Qasas chapter 28 verse 56

 

56. It is true thou wilt not be able to guide every one, whom thou lovest; but Allah guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance.

 

So it is Allah who gives the guidence to people. If you are out seeking the truth then InshaAllah ( God willing) he will show you the road to him.

 

Im very sad to hear that you and ur wife is having some problems. If you want to solve things out again Islam could help you.

 

Did you know that Islam is the only non christian faith, that makes it as an article of faith for its followers to believe in Jesus christ (pbuh), the son of Maryam. No muslim is a muslim, unless he believe Jesus christ (pbuh). We believe tha he was the messah translated christ and we believe that he healed those born blind and the leapers with Allah's permission and and rose the dead with Allah's permission. We also believe in his miraculous birth which many modern day christians now do not believe. The only parting of ways is where they say that Jesus is devine while we say that it is Allah the one and only and there is nothing like him. Also they claim that he is the son of the God, while we tell them God cannot beget and neither he is begotten.

 

 

Since this is not the occasion to talk on christianity I would leave this topic aside with this video.

 

May Allah show you, your wife and your whole family the truth of Islam. ameen

 

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Similar words were said by early meccans at the time of the prophet specially by cheifs of Mecca. For example, Islam and prophet Muhammed was an enemy to Umar bin Al Khattab (R.A) the second calip of the Islamic ummah. However, with Allah's mercy he converted to Islam

 

REad more about him : (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=205"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=205[/url]

also in : (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetreadingislam(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1154235102872&pagename=Zone-English-Discover_Islam%2FDIELayout"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetreadingislam(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/servlet/Satell...lam%2FDIELayout[/url]

 

Islam means peace aquired by submitting your will to God. A one word definition in arabic is called as Islam. A person who bows his will only to Allah (Swt) is called as a muslim in arabic. How come you dont want Islam when it has got the beautiful teachings that could solve the problems of humanity.

And yet I am confident that it would not result in peace in my family. Why don't I want Islam? Because I haven't been convinced of its beauty and its solutions, but I am convinced that I will suffer if I adopt it. What would you do in my circumstances? Would you use a medicine for which you have lots of doubts about its benefits, but no doubts about its negative effects? Only a fool would do so. You first need to be convinced that it will benefit you before you believe the benefits outweigh the known drawbacks.

So it is Allah who gives the guidence to people. If you are out seeking the truth then InshaAllah ( God willing) he will show you the road to him.

 

Im very sad to hear that you and ur wife is having some problems. If you want to solve things out again Islam could help you.

I understand that. But if Allah is giving guidance to me, I can't see it. You can say you are showing me, showing someone something and them seeing it are two different things. And while I appreciate your sympathy for my wife and I, we are working on finding a way forward, and I feel that we will make a way forward together. I honestly don't think Islam will help this, and you have not demonstrated how it would.

Did you know that Islam is the only non christian faith, that makes it as an article of faith for its followers to believe in Jesus christ (pbuh), the son of Maryam. No muslim is a muslim, unless he believe Jesus christ (pbuh). We believe tha he was the messah translated christ and we believe that he healed those born blind and the leapers with Allah's permission and and rose the dead with Allah's permission. We also believe in his miraculous birth which many modern day christians now do not believe. The only parting of ways is where they say that Jesus is devine while we say that it is Allah the one and only and there is nothing like him. Also they claim that he is the son of the God, while we tell them God cannot beget and neither he is begotten.

I am aware of that, but it would do nothing to pacify my wife on the matter, and really doesn't interest me either. If I wanted to believe in Jesus, I would be a Christian, since this is what I grew up with, and where my religious inclinations lie anyway.

May Allah show you, your wife and your whole family the truth of Islam. ameen

Thank you for your concern and prayer.

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If you have already intended not to give a consideration to Islam, then no matter how many clear signs we provide, you are not willing to accept it.

 

My intention to reply to ur above post is just to clarify one thing, and that is, to believe in Jesus doesnt mean you have to be a christian as told above, no muslim is a muslim unless he believe in Jesus.

 

May Allah show your family the right path..

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If you have already intended not to give a consideration to Islam, then no matter how many clear signs we provide, you are not willing to accept it.

Not entirely true, since there is always the possibility of being surprised. But I do admit it makes the task of converting me much more difficult than if I had come looking for a religion and thought Islam might be what I am looking for.

My intention to reply to ur above post is just to clarify one thing, and that is, to believe in Jesus doesnt mean you have to be a christian as told above, no muslim is a muslim unless he believe in Jesus.

No, I understand that, and a number of other Muslims have emphasized that point to me. But there seems to be an unawareness that this really isn't much of a selling point to Christians (or cultural Christians like myself). That is because it isn't about a bare belief in Jesus, but about belief in Jesus as he is revealed in Scripture and taught in the doctrines of Christianity. Offering a different sort of Jesus will only seem like a counterfeit to a committed Christian, and they would probably act hostilely to it as threat to their faith than as a welcome point of common ground. At least that has been my experience.

May Allah show your family the right path..

Thank you. May you and your family be well also.

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Once again, I cannot convert you, its Allah who gives hidayah. My job is just to deliver the message and to warn and inform others...

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No.....akhi.

CONGRATULATING AN ATHEIST

 

My Muslim brothers may question me, "Zakir, why are you congratulating an atheist?" The reason that I am congratulating an atheist is because he agrees with the first part of the Shahada i.e. the Islamic Creed, ‘La ilaaha’ - meaning ‘there is no God’. So half my job is already done; now the only part left is ‘il lallah’ i.e. ‘BUT Allah’ which I shall do Insha Allah. With others (who are not atheists) I have to first remove from their minds the wrong concept of God they may have and then put the correct concept of one true God.
I like Dr. ZAik Nai. That's not what a portion of shahadat means though. Congradulationg people on disobedience to Allah is wrong. I'm fussy on this view.

 

Everyone makes errors. May peace and blessing be upon prophet Muhammad, sall-Alalhu alayhi wa salam, and his family.

Edited by Orthodox

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Hi Vishah

 

I suspect that Dr Naik does not understand atheists, at least this piece suggests that he does not.  Like most atheists I don’t have this picture of god as an old bloke with a beard sitting on a throne up there.  I agree with you that such a god is a foolish idea.  I understand that there are a few characteristics that a god must have to be worthy of the title and human characteristics are not among them.  I suspect that we would agree on these characteristics or at least many of them.

 

I believe that a god must be all powerful.  Do you agree?

I believe that a god must be outside of time.  Do you agree?

There are more but those two are a start.

 

I believe that we are trying to explain some very difficult things atheists and believers alike but we come to different conclusions.  The biggest question is, how did the universe come to be as it is.  We see complex structures here yet the evidence suggests that that complexity did not exist before the universe came into existence and in fact it did not exist for some time after the universe came into existence.  Science shows us simple laws which explain the appearance of complexity from simplicity while believers suggest that the complexity already existed and call that god.  The science does not support this view and this view leaves open the question of where did complexity come from as just saying that it came from god only moves the problem backwards.

 

There is plenty more to discuss here but let’s start with that bit of Dr Niak’s piece.

 

Russell

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Hi Vishah

 

I think I must also comment on Dr Niak’s Bacon quote as this is an oft repeated quote.  The claim is that the more science we get the more it leads to belief in god.  It’s a claim that any believer would be likely to wish were true but the evidence actually points in the other direction.  In a recent meta-analysis of 50 studies into intelligence vs. religious belief there was, in all but three studies, a strong negative correlation between these factors, the more intelligent the participant the less likely they were to be a believer.  Similar analysis of the beliefs of science show that the greater the science education one has received and the greater the scientific grounding the lower are the chances that a person will be a believer.  Among the top scientists in the US, those elected to the National Academy of Sciences, rates of belief fall from the US average of around 75% to around 5% for those who’s fields directly touch on the questions of belief (evolutionary theory, physics etc).  For other fields the drop is to below 10% though most fields hover in the 7-8% range.  A dramatic drop due apparently to their exposure to science.

 

In short Bacon was wrong in this quote with the evidence pointing to exactly the opposite conclusion to that which Bacon would have you believe.  Of course Bacon lived a long time ago so we can forgive him for his ignorance.

 

Russell

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the more intelligent the participant the less likely they were to be a believer.

If those studies were measuring the different level of intelligence of the participants, then they are of little value, because what we believers say is that there is a unique intelligence in the divine engineering observed in the design of god's creations, and that the more science advances, the more we get closer to understanding the complex divine intelligence in all of god's creations. That has nothing to do with different levels of intelligence between individuals of same species that those studies are measuring.

 

 

 Similar analysis of the beliefs of science show that the greater the science education one has received and the greater the scientific grounding the lower are the chances that a person will be a believer.

 

That is a deception, because you're measuring a non religious community in the first place. If you repeat such analysis in religious countries, you'll notice completely the other way round. Its your tendency that counts. An assassin visiting a knives shop would possibly comfort his conscious by observing all those people shopping for knives, not just him, where in fact the shop is full of housewives. 

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Hi Dot

 

The quote I was answering was

Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God.

 

I’m not really sure how your comments on a unique intelligence unrelated to human intelligence touches on what I said.  Can you explain that?  Humans have intelligence and some are more intelligent than others, that’s pretty clear.  The point was that the more intelligent you are the less likely you are, as scientifically measured, to be a believer.  I think that point stands unless you have some actual evidence against it.

 

Your second point is simply not true, the US belief rate runs at over 75% and there’s no reason to suspect that those going into the sciences are dramatically different though a study on that may be interesting.  The figures were interesting in that they showed that entry level scientists had higher levels of belief and that it was deep education in the sciences that, contrary to Bacon’s claim, remove your religious beliefs leaving that measured figure of around 5% among the most learned.

 

This same phenomenon has been observed in some very specific examples among the christian fundamentalist fraternity in the US.  For many years they’ve been trying to get credentialed scientists to bolster their ranks as that would give them credibility.  Their approach was to take strong believers from amongst their ranks and put them through university but of the many candidates they put through virtually all learned the error of their ways before they graduated and lost their faith.  The evidence, properly understood, is that strong.

 

Project Steve shows that there are something like 1700 properly credentialed scientists who don’t believe in creation science for every one who does.  I’d suggest that is for a very good reason and that directly contradicts the Bacon quote in the original post to this thread.

 

Russell

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My points were responses to your questioning of believers' claim that..

 

 claim is that the more science we get the more it leads to belief in god.

 

So the issue here was about more scientific discoveries, not how intelligent different people are, like the study you brought up measures in relation to religious beliefs. That study is not related to the claim you're questioning.

I agree of course that people don't have the same level of intelligence. But that  has nothing to do with new scientific discoveries. That's all I wanted to clear.

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Hi Dot

 

 

Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God.


This might work better if you answer what Bacon said and the points I was making against it rather than my paraphrasing of his words but this works either way.  People learn about science all the time and science continues to discover more and more about this universe.  The more people learn about science, and top scientists have learned the most obviously, the less likely they are to be believers in direct contradiction to what Bacon said.  Do you dispute this?

 

My unstated point on intelligence was that getting more science requires intelligence, the higher levels of science require the highest levels of intelligence.  Bacon says that more science leads to belief but these two points directly contradict that claim.  More intelligent people, in other words those most capable of taking up the maximum amount of science, are demonstrably less likely to be religious regardless of the amount of science they have learned.  Also directly studying science’s influence shows that the more science you get the less likely you are to be religious because those with the highest levels of science knowledge are by far the least likely to be believers.  That’s two scientifically rigorous studies which directly contradict the point made by the original poster when he quoted Bacon.  In other words Bacon was wrong when he penned that line so as much as it may feel good to believers to quote him they really should understand when doing so that he was wrong, demonstrably wrong.

 

That was my point.

 

Russell

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