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UmmSuleiman

Why Atheism Doesn't Make Sense

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Surely a sabre-toothed tiger is a "transitional form" of the modern tiger. Remains of "transitional forms" have been found (see the many proto-human remains, for example), but by emphasising the in-between stages you are misinterpreting what is happening. There are no "perfect forms", linked by "transitional forms". Everything is constantly subjected to selection pressures (which can change) and genetic change (which is pretty much random). Every species is constantly a "transitional form".

 

 

A creature that lives in the sea can never leave the water and go on dry land. It would die if it did.

 

Wrong. Amphibians do. Have you actually read anything about evolution which is written by people who know the science?

 

Here's a fact that no scientist can deny. The universe is in a state of expansion. If this is true, then there was a time when it didn't exist. Logical conclusion.

 

Not at all. The universe could have been expanding and contracting an infinite number of times (Big Bang/Big Crunch).

Edited by wattle

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PropellerAds

Finally got around to reading page 1...

 

Well, if something didn't exist and then it was brought into existence, then that means it was created. No other explanation would make sense.

 

This is false, if by "creator" you mean a being. Probably there was some process by which the universe came into existence, but to extrapolate from that and assume that a being was the cause is just ludicrously illogical. As nothing that happens in the universe requires a supernatural explanation, it would be logical to assume that it is likely that whatever process caused the universe is also not supernatural. Or to at least look for evidence, which is what science is doing right now with CERN and the other super-colliders. We are tantalisingly close to knowing what the universe was like at the Big Bang.

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Finally got around to reading page 1...

This is false, if by "creator" you mean a being. Probably there was some process by which the universe came into existence, but to extrapolate from that and assume that a being was the cause is just ludicrously illogical. As nothing that happens in the universe requires a supernatural explanation, it would be logical to assume that it is likely that whatever process caused the universe is also not supernatural. Or to at least look for evidence, which is what science is doing right now with CERN and the other super-colliders. We are tantalisingly close to knowing what the universe was like at the Big Bang.

 

 

Wattle we dont even know where the universe begins and ends so how can we do a correct synopsis on the universe as a whole when we dont even know where space ends. Islam doesnt give a supenatural explanation because in Islam Allah is greater than the supernatural. Now i wonder is you as a sperm argued with other sperm if there is life out side of the testicles? Or as a baby about life outside of the womb. Now here you stand as living proof of something that came form practically nothing, started out as a thing that the human eye couldnt see and grew and evolved into a intelligent think being. And with your intelligence you cant look at how you came from practicaly nothing into something and that you came into exisetnce by way of a BEING(NAMELY YOUR FATHER) that you knew nothing of until you was fully formed. And now you look at the earth which is a speck in this universe amongst the trillions of galexies and stars and is just like that one sperm amongst other sperms, and you look at this with your intelligence and you say

to extrapolate from that and assume that a being was the cause is just ludicrously illogical
. No wattle it is very illogical based off of your own comming into the earth to assume that there is no Being behind this.mercy if you was a fully thinking sperm with your mind now you would have doubted that you could form into something greater than being a sperm. You would have died,rejecting faith of an afterlife. Just really think on that man before you answer quickly think

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I agree that we don't know how the universe came into being. Which makes it ludicrous to conclude that something as specific and unlikely as a sentient being was the cause, especially as there is no evidence of the sentient being's existence within the universe.

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I agree that we don't know how the universe came into being. Which makes it ludicrous to conclude that something as specific and unlikely as a sentient being was the cause, especially as there is no evidence of the sentient being's existence within the universe.

 

 

now we get down to the crux of the matter, which basically boils down to two options.. either stupidity or inteligence. If we see an undevloped land and nothing is on it and we come back in a few years and then see a building on that land we will no doubt know that it didnt just appear there by chance or out of nowhere. Stupidity would argue that nothing put that building there it just happened, intelligence would look into its own life and know that there was something at work that put that building there. The same is with the universe stupidity is to look at something as vast as space, the universe (which we dont know where it begins or ends) and say it just appeared and nothing brought it into being it brought itsself into existence. Intelligence is to see that this universe didnt just happen it came from something and it is structured on intelligence that we cant even fathom. So no we dont say it is nothing we say it is something and that is what we call Allah and Allah is greater than a sentient being his intelligence is greater than whatever is on our mind. So the question remains are you stupid or are you intelligent? Your next answer will show which side you chose.

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now we get down to the crux of the matter, which basically boils down to two options.. either stupidity or inteligence.

 

No. This is called the either or fallacy. There are plenty more options than either stupidity or intellegence.

 

If we see an undevloped land and nothing is on it and we come back in a few years and then see a building on that land we will no doubt know that it didnt just appear there by chance or out of nowhere.

 

Wrong. You are guessing or assuming that it didn't appear out of nowhere because you are able to recall past instances in which you have seen buildings put together, so you make a quite reasonable guess that someone has built the building. The absolute correct answer if you have never seen a building built before and have no past experinces in this would be " I don't know"

 

Stupidity would argue that nothing put that building there it just happened, intelligence would look into its own life and know that there was something at work that put that building there. The same is with the universe stupidity is to look at something as vast as space, the universe (which we dont know where it begins or ends) and say it just appeared and nothing brought it into being it brought itsself into existence. Intelligence is to see that this universe didnt just happen it came from something and it is structured on intelligence that we cant even fathom. So no we dont say it is nothing we say it is something and that is what we call Allah and Allah is greater than a sentient being his intelligence is greater than whatever is on our mind. So the question remains are you stupid or are you intelligent? Your next answer will show which side you chose.

 

I will take this quoted part and use my past analysis in conjunction with further analysis. Your analogy of a building to the universe is false because while we have good evidence that buildings are built by people over a period of time beause we have seen them, we have never seen a universe being built. Therefore we have no way of knowing if the univese was built by a being or was simply there. I would be presumptous to assume that the universe was built by a being in which no one has had past experince in experincing that being build something. It would be analogous to going to Yellowstone National Park and seeing the thermals and assuming that because they seem so complicated man must of built them.

 

The only correct assumption in the building of the universe based on empirical evidence is "I don't know". There are theories as to how it came to pass based on empirical evidence but there are guesses based on evidence we have now. The only 100% correct statement is "We don't know"

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The universe was created by Allah(SWT). As from the post a clever story the watch is obviously made by a man but we did not see him do it, watch wasn't there forever or made by itself.

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If we see an undevloped land and nothing is on it and we come back in a few years and then see a building on that land we will no doubt know that it didnt just appear there by chance or out of nowhere.

 

What xocoti said, plus no-one claims that the universe appeared "by chance or out of nowhere". I've already said that there was probably a process by which the universe came into being. We don't (yet) know what that process was.

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The universe was created by Allah(SWT). As from the post a clever story the watch is obviously made by a man but we did not see him do it, watch wasn't there forever or made by itself.

 

*Sigh* You aren't understanding the idea. The only reason you know the watch was made by a man inspite of you not seeing him do it IS BECAUSE YOUR PAST EXPERIENCE* with how watches are made. In your past experience you have seen watches, buildings, all man made objects. Since no one has any experience with God's creationist mechanisms no one can tell if the universe was created by Alla or not based on past experience and imperical evidence.

 

Likewise if we sat someone who had no experience with man made objects or naturally made objects they would not be able to differenciate between the two.

 

Similarly no one can differenciate between a God created universe and a naturally occuring universe based on empirical evidence because we have no experience in differenciating between a God made universe and a naturally occuring universe.

 

So the correct answer based on all emperical knowlege is " We don't know", at least for right now.

 

* This isn't meant to be rude. I was highliting the most relevent part of the sentence.

Edited by xocoti

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Science has proven how nonsensical the evolution theory really is.

I am not allowed to add a link but if you google for "Hawaiian caterpillars are first known amphibious insects

Terrestrial moths evolved new lifestyle in the islands", you will find that evolution is still alive and kicking.

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Science has proven how nonsensical the evolution theory really is.

 

This sort of thing bothers me. It's an outright falsehood (almost every scientist working in a relevant field accepts that evolution is the theory which best fits the current evidence) but it gets blithely stated all the time. If you are so wrong about this, what other things which you state are also untrue? Why should anyone trust anything you say?

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Here's a fact that no scientist can deny. The universe is in a state of expansion. If this is true, then there was a time when it didn't exist. Logical conclusion.

Besides the Big Bang Theory, there are other models used by scientist to explain the development of the universe, such as the steady-state, ekpyrotic, big bounce and plasma cosmology. There is also a cyclic model proposed by Dr. Paul Frampton, Louis J. Rubin Jr. distinguished professor of physics in UNC's College of Arts & Sciences, and co-author Lauris Baum, a UNC graduate student in physics. You can find an article on this by googling "No Big Bang? Endless Universe Made Possible by New Model". I think your so-called "logical conclusion" is premature.

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Basically,"okay", your answer is; "I don't know, we're working on it."Smile out loud..

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No. This is called the either or fallacy. There are plenty more options than either stupidity or intellegence.

 

if your offended by this im sorry that is not my intent but it is either your stupid when it comes to this or your intelligent and intelligent meaning having some intelligence not dismissing things based off of your feelings

 

 

Wrong. You are guessing or assuming that it didn't appear out of nowhere because you are able to recall past instances in which you have seen buildings put together, so you make a quite reasonable guess that someone has built the building. The absolute correct answer if you have never seen a building built before and have no past experinces in this would be " I don't know"

 

Before we shout wrong please take into considiration what you are calling wrong, you are correct and you strengthen my point more, tell me have you ever had or can recall past instances of how a pyramid is put together?(dont answer) The point that i was making in my analogy is what your intelligence would automatically say as you have correctly said I DONT KNOW, and with that you would say SOMETHING put this foriegn object here, i dont know what put it here but something put it here. It is highly stupid to just reject the fact that there is now something here in your face that wasnt here before(still using my analogy). And to just say it just happened your own intelligence would say something put this here. We say that something is Allah and Allah is the greatest something, so when ever we think about this universe comming into being we use scientific tools to try our best to figure out how we got here. And what we find is evidence of intelligence in the matter,and what ever that came from we say it must be something great. Stupidity would reject that .

 

 

I will take this quoted part and use my past analysis in conjunction with further analysis. Your analogy of a building to the universe is false because while we have good evidence that buildings are built by people over a period of time beause we have seen them, we have never seen a universe being built. Therefore we have no way of knowing if the univese was built by a being or was simply there. I would be presumptous to assume that the universe was built by a being in which no one has had past experince in experincing that being build something. It would be analogous to going to Yellowstone National Park and seeing the thermals and assuming that because they seem so complicated man must of built them.

 

Thank you very much I agree with you 100% Now when you look at the universe and all the intelligence in the matter can you then come to a conclusion that it just happened when you dont even know or have any experience of seeing one being structured before. Scientist always say what a wonderful marvel and they speak so highly of the universe and the earth and they become very intelligent by studying matter that they had no hand in making. This alone should get one on the road to thinking that there is some intelligence at work that we know very little about. And what we do know is that it is great

 

The only correct assumption in the building of the universe based on empirical evidence is "I don't know". There are theories as to how it came to pass based on empirical evidence but there are guesses based on evidence we have now. The only 100% correct statement is "We don't know"

 

Yes we dont know however does your intellect stop there? Would you then say ok i dont know but look here it is now how did it get here, and my intelligence tells me that something never comes from nothing, something put this here.

 

 

What xocoti said, plus no-one claims that the universe appeared "by chance or out of nowhere". I've already said that there was probably a process by which the universe came into being. We don't (yet) know what that process was.

 

Yes and a process must follow laws, who or what makes these laws because these laws are governed by some high intelligence. Or do u reject that and say no its no intelligence at all?

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Quote by Wattle "We don't (yet) know what that process was."

 

you never will know how universe came into life by itself. And sorry i don't know how to do "quote"

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you never will know how universe came into life by itself.

 

I said (twice) that the universe probably came into existence through a process. I don't call that "by itself".

 

However, even if (and it's a very big "if", as there's no evidence for it, and all the available evidence points in the other direction) a thing outside time and eternal did create the universe, there's still no reason whatsoever to assume that it was a sentient being. None, nada, zip. Humans have this tendency to anthropomorphize their experience, as I'm sure you've noticed. That's sufficient to account for all the gods that have ever been believed in.

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Basically,"okay", your answer is; "I don't know, we're working on it."Smile out loud..

 

This might be a shock but it is perfectly fine to say " We don't know"

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if your offended by this im sorry that is not my intent but it is either your stupid when it comes to this or your intelligent and intelligent meaning having some intelligence not dismissing things based off of your feelings

 

No offense.

 

Before we shout wrong please take into considiration what you are calling wrong, you are correct and you strengthen my point more, tell me have you ever had or can recall past instances of how a pyramid is put together?(dont answer) The point that i was making in my analogy is what your intelligence would automatically say as you have correctly said I DONT KNOW, and with that you would say SOMETHING put this foriegn object here, i dont know what put it here but something put it here. It is highly stupid to just reject the fact that there is now something here in your face that wasnt here before(still using my analogy).

 

You are missing the point that I am making. We have no way of knowing if the universe was made by God or not, because we have no experience in differentiating between a universe that is God made or "naturally made". The reason we assume that the pyramids are man made is because we have past experience with placing bricks on bricks and building techniques. Compare this with a thermal geyser that is naturally occurring. We know this because we have past experience with natural phenomenon causing the same kind of phenomenon namely volcanoes. We recognize the characteristics of a man made object vs a naturally occurring object based on empirical evidence. We have no such knowledge when it comes to God making the universe versus a naturally occurring universe. If you could show me a naturally occurring universe and then show me a God made universe and showed me the differences then it would be easy to know if God made the universe or not

 

And to just say it just happened your own intelligence would say something put this here.

 

Read above. You are making an assumption based on bad empirical data. We have no evidence of a "God placed" universe versus a "Non placed universe". Like the thermal and the pyramids we rely on past experience to analogize phenomenon. We have no past knowlege of these events. It is impossible to assertain if the universe was "put" here or was simply here all along, or came into being another way. The answer is " I don't know"

 

 

We say that something is Allah and Allah is the greatest something, so when ever we think about this universe comming into being we use scientific tools to try our best to figure out how we got here. And what we find is evidence of intelligence in the matter,and what ever that came from we say it must be something great. Stupidity would reject that .

 

"Great" is a connotative word which means different things to different people. The universe could be great it could be terrible. Depends on who you talk to. Likewise is this so called " intelligence". A thermal is complex, should we assume that it is man made? Of course not, because we have experience saying that complex things can be naturally made. Likewise can we say that because the universe is complex that God made it? No because we have no experience with God making anything so we have nothing to compare the "intelligence" of the universe with something that does not contain that "intelligence"

 

 

Thank you very much I agree with you 100% Now when you look at the universe and all the intelligence in the matter can you then come to a conclusion that it just happened when you dont even know or have any experience of seeing one being structured before. Scientist always say what a wonderful marvel and they speak so highly of the universe and the earth and they become very intelligent by studying matter that they had no hand in making. This alone should get one on the road to thinking that there is some intelligence at work that we know very little about. And what we do know is that it is great

 

Appeal to authority. Just because a scientist says that the universe is a marvel doesn't mean there is some superior intelligence to it. Also you will find plenty of scientists who don't believe that there is a superior being who created the universe. Should I take their word for it because they are scientists?

 

Yes we don't know however does your intellect stop there? Would you then say ok i don't know but look here it is now how did it get here, and my intelligence tells me that something never comes from nothing, something put this here.

 

How many universes have you seen being created? If you have seen a universe being created let me know. Otherwise you know no idea how the universe was created. It could have came from nothing. It could have been the first cause by itself. Besides why stop your intelligence at the something that but the universe here. Obviously your intelligence would lead you to believe that something but that something that put the universe in its place.

 

 

Yes and a process must follow laws, who or what makes these laws because these laws are governed by some high intelligence. Or do u reject that and say no its no intelligence at all?

 

* Sigh* I will say it again. I don't know. I haven't seen any evidence for an "intelligence" in the universe as opposed to "no intelligence" in the universe.

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Basically,"okay", your answer is; "I don't know, we're working on it."Smile out loud..

Yes, but that is how Science is. So those wishing to rope science to support their religious stance have to be really careful as it may end up being a mere display of their ignorance of Science or it could boomerang back on them. That was the point of my post. Let me know if this is not clear to you.

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Okay, our rope never changes or contradicts. Check out my user name. Your rope of scientists have so many different theories, confusing huh?

 

Ours agreed on all fundamentals and at least eighty percent including senior scholars.

Edited by Orthodox

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Okay, our rope never changes or contradicts. Check out my user name. Your rope of scientists have so many different theories, confusing huh?

 

Ours agreed on all fundamentals and at least eighty percent including senior scholars.

Your response clearly indicates you have not understood my post.

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Let's assume I didn't reply to your post. Am I not correct?

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You are missing the point that I am making. We have no way of knowing if the universe was made by God or not, because we have no experience in differentiating between a universe that is God made or "naturally made". The reason we assume that the pyramids are man made is because we have past experience with placing bricks on bricks and building techniques.

 

 

Compare this with a thermal geyser that is naturally occurring. We know this because we have past experience with natural phenomenon causing the same kind of phenomenon namely volcanoes. We recognize the characteristics of a man made object vs a naturally occurring object based on empirical evidence. We have no such knowledge when it comes to God making the universe versus a naturally occurring universe. If you could show me a naturally occurring universe and then show me a God made universe and showed me the differences then it would be easy to know if God made the universe or not

 

See so we cant rationalize stupidity, you have to come to the agreement that Man did not make the universe. However SOMETHING did. It is just plain stupid to dismiss this when we look at the universe, knowing that we have no hand in making it and seeing that we ourselves are creators in our human nature. We make and we create all the time but when we look at the universe we know that we did not create that. So what put it the or were did it come from, our own intelligence would say we dont know but we know it came from something. and that something has to be very very very powerful and intelligent with an intelligence that is unmatched. How do we come to this conclusion because as you said WE HAVE EXPERIENCE in creating things and with that experience we KNOW when something is created. Just like you can ASSUME that the Pyramids are man made we can also assume that the universe is created. 2 choices stupidity or intelligence choose one. ( and trust me im enjoying the conversation and im not calling you stupid)

 

 

. You are making an assumption based on bad empirical data. We have no evidence of a "God placed" universe versus a "Non placed universe". Like the thermal and the pyramids we rely on past experience to analogize phenomenon. We have no past knowlege of these events. It is impossible to assertain if the universe was "put" here or was simply here all along, or came into being another way. The answer is " I don't know"

 

You have knowledge of being a creator because you yourself are a creator.Past experience of being a creator is enough to look at this world and see tha it operates on princples, and laws and is structured the same way things that we as man create is structured but the world is far more advanced

 

"Great" is a connotative word which means different things to different people. The universe could be great it could be terrible. Depends on who you talk to. Likewise is this so called " intelligence". A thermal is complex, should we assume that it is man made? Of course not, because we have experience saying that complex things can be naturally made. Likewise can we say that because the universe is complex that God made it? No because we have no experience with God making anything so we have nothing to compare the "intelligence" of the universe with something that does not contain that "intelligence"

 

again we have experience of being a creator, and you know what there is always a greater creator. The wheel, the metal the cars the planes ect ect, always a greater creator, and the universe which is active and not dead you look at thatt and say what that you dont see creation taking place? New galexies being formed and you dont see that as something being created. But machines putting together a car you can see that as being created but a galexies being formed is not being created ??

 

Appeal to authority. Just because a scientist says that the universe is a marvel doesn't mean there is some superior intelligence to it.

 

????

now you reject scientist

 

Also you will find plenty of scientists who don't believe that there is a superior being who created the universe. Should I take their word for it because they are scientists?

 

they all say something created it even though thay may not be religious they have enough sense to know that something more intelligent than them created this

 

How many universes have you seen being created? If you have seen a universe being created let me know. Otherwise you know no idea how the universe was created. It could have came from nothing.

 

I have past experience that tells me something NEVER comes from nothing it always comes from something, or maybe you can prove this statement wrong

 

 

It could have been the first cause by itself. Besides why stop your intelligence at the something that but the universe here. Obviously your intelligence would lead you to believe that something but that something that put the universe in its place.

* Sigh* I will say it again. I don't know. I haven't seen any evidence for an "intelligence" in the universe as opposed to "no intelligence" in the universe.

 

WOW no evidence for intelligence in the universe huh?? So the laws that govern the way the planets move thats not intelligence, the fact that the earth sits in space without falling is not intelligence. What holds the planets up from not falling, to study that question alone would bring one into some intelligence.

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See so we cant rationalize stupidity, you have to come to the agreement that Man did not make the universe. However SOMETHING did. It is just plain stupid to dismiss this when we look at the universe, knowing that we have no hand in making it and seeing that we ourselves are creators in our human nature. We make and we create all the time but when we look at the universe we know that we did not create that. So what put it the or were did it come from, our own intelligence would say we dont know but we know it came from something. and that something has to be very very very powerful and intelligent with an intelligence that is unmatched. How do we come to this conclusion because as you said WE HAVE EXPERIENCE in creating things and with that experience we KNOW when something is created. Just like you can ASSUME that the Pyramids are man made we can also assume that the universe is created. 2 choices stupidity or intelligence choose one. ( and trust me im enjoying the conversation and im not calling you stupid

 

First I will try and map out your arguement and then show your assumptions and why those assumptions might not be true. First, you make the statements that human being use our intellegence to transform resources from their natural state to a state which it would be almost impossible to assume that they occured naturally. For instance combining a tree and graphite to create a pencil. Something that has almost no possbility if left to nature to create. A tangental arguement you make is that something cannot come from nothing and thus Something must have brought the universe into existance. I'll show that this arguement really doesn't matter in this discourse. You then make an arguement by analogy saying that the universe operates on laws, rules, is complex, beautiful, etc. and therefor there must have been a creator to make such finite laws, rules, to create this beauty etc.

 

The problem with this arguement from analogy is it relys on a comparision you make in the first part ( man creation vs nature) to the lack of a comparion in the second part ( God creating the universe). In the first comparion we can tell that something has been created by man because we have experience with things NOT created by man and things created by man. Therefore we can look at the pyramids, pencils, cars etc and say these things do not exist in nature, we know that man can create things not found in nature ( we usually know the characterisitcs of things made my man), and therefore these things were man made. The second part of your arguement by analogy ( God created the universe) does not make this comparison. We have never seen a universe NOT made by God, a natural made universe, and a God made universe so we have no method of which to detect the workmanship of God versus nature.

 

now you reject scientist, they all say something created it even though thay may not be religious they have enough sense to know that something more intelligent than them created this

 

your not understanding what an appeal to athority is. It is claiming that scientists, because they know science, know more about the existance of God. They dont, any more than you or I do. It is like saying because an athelete knows how to kick a soccer ball better, I should drink the soft drink he is endorsing.

 

I have past experience that tells me something NEVER comes from nothing it always comes from something, or maybe you can prove this statement wrong

 

The problem is that you must apply this to all your reasoning. You can't say that the universe can't create itself, it had to be created by something and then say that God wasn't created. Then this becomes an arbitary line that could be applied to the universe as a whole.

 

WOW no evidence for intelligence in the universe huh?? So the laws that govern the way the planets move thats not intelligence, the fact that the earth sits in space without falling is not intelligence. What holds the planets up from not falling, to study that question alone would bring one into some intelligence.

 

I think you are using a different definition of intellegence. I am talking about intellegence as something supernatural something beyond nature. If there was proof that God has created the laws of nature, like someone who say God do it or be able to compare a universe in which God created versus one hasn't created. If he don't have any evidence of this we might as well say that man created trees or thermal gysers.

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Let's assume I didn't reply to your post. Am I not correct?

Sorry, your English is foreign to me.

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