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UmmSuleiman

Why Atheism Doesn't Make Sense

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okay enough. the way you guys argue is very childish.resorting to words like stupidy and those degrading and insulting words.. I as a muslim shall continue to believe in my faith of my knowledge given by the Quran. and I fair enough, the same opportunity should be given to you to believe in the knowledge you have recieved,whoever you might be,weather of any religion, an athiest or even a freethinker.

 

For now I shall be a neutral party and I'll speak using logic itself

Let us admit one thing here. NOONE in this world knows what would happen to himself/herself when he/she dies.To Muslims, Islam believes a different thing, Other religions may beleive a different thing and you might believe a different thing. But Lets keep one thing for certain.. Until that day comes, noone has the right to say anything about what happens after death because noone amongst us,currently living in this world,ALIVE, has experienced it before. We are ALL guided by this thing called Faith in what we believe in and what we know. same thing with the topic of the Universe. Did anyone here create it? did anyone here SEE who creates it? can anyone testify that he's seen it and prove it? NO.

We are all guided by faith an knowledge.

 

Muslims are guided by the knowledge and faith in our Phrophets, the Qurans and even Hadiths.

 

Non muslims may have different ways of guidance by the knowledge they recieved by their own beliefs,sciences and even theories

 

well the bottom line is.. we will only know which faith and knowledge is the truth until we experience and witness the event which cannot be proven by anything at all such as death. if what happens in death is solely according to the Quran then we're right all along but its too late for you to repent already and you'd have no say. but if its not then yea practically what we're practicing is pure vanity..and we'd have no say.

 

al lwe can do now is have faith in the knowledge we have and just wait for the day. The time will come don't worry.Noone could escape death maybe not 50 years down the road but tomorrow, who knows.. Understand that these are the limitations of us Humans. The inability to know about the unknown. like walking in the darkness trying to find an invisible door. if faith that keeps whispering to you " there's an exist somewhere. just keep walking and we'll sure to find it" doesnt exist, what else is there to guide you?

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Sir,

 

your "proof" is only words from the quran. If I write a book stating that I am god and provide my handwritten "verse" as proof, will that be accepted ?? you cant use the quran as proof of itself...logically, the proof has to come from outside the quran

 

I, as with other religions have my holy book too - it is called the Bhagavad Gita - but I would not say that the bhgavad gita is proof of my god either - i'd only say that its my belief

 

BTW, you havent replied to

 

belief,,,

that's the most logic answer for something that looks irrational'

but in our heart we know it's true

 

hmm, let's see

are we proof that god's exist?

does the nature itself prove god exist?

 

well, opik sees, people like you can't accept until you've sense god

then wait untill you die

and you will know the truth

 

but muslims, as their job, da'wah

will always send Allah's message

for every people to embrace Islam

 

well, beliefs are saomething you embrace with your heart

whatever proof are meaningless if your heart is closed

but, when Allah wishes it, then it will be

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>The atheists claim that God doesn't exist and refuse to use their power of reason to know this truth.

 

Are you trying to say that some of the greatest minds and intellects of modern times have not applied their powers of reason to the question of whether god does or doesn't exist?! The greatest and best known of these is of course Albert Einstein to quote him:

 

"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still purely primitive, legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."

 

>To those who ask who created Allah, I pose to them another question.

 

You can't answer a question with another question.

 

>Science has proven that the universe has not always existed.

 

No it hasn't.

 

>It came into being as the result of a big bang. The universe is in a state of expansion and there was a time when it did not exist.

 

Actually, this is just a theory that has a lot of evidence and data to support it, it hasn't been scientifically PROVEN.

 

no, they haven't

there hasn't been any results from those who died

they havent told us anything, whether whose god is right

or are they just became dust

 

and that quote from Einstein, it just shows the ego of human

you'll know when you're weak and don;t have any place

feeling loss and don't have anything

 

well, that's why, opik say it like this

"god appears only when you need him"

you maybe don't believe in him now

but when you suffer.

you'll see what opik say

 

well, theories huh, if a lot of evidence and data can't make a theory proven, what can?

what does it mean to be sceintific?

 

come on, opik believe in vodoos, blac magic, and those "jins, ghost or, whatever name"

why?

because they exist, and there are many cases in the world that prove it

it doesn't need to be scientific, because there are some places

that are not yet reached by science

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Surely a sabre-toothed tiger is a "transitional form" of the modern tiger. Remains of "transitional forms" have been found (see the many proto-human remains, for example), but by emphasising the in-between stages you are misinterpreting what is happening. There are no "perfect forms", linked by "transitional forms". Everything is constantly subjected to selection pressures (which can change) and genetic change (which is pretty much random). Every species is constantly a "transitional form".

 

Surely?

 

well, how if opik say it's just a spesies of tiger?

just like birds with teeth, ism't it just a sub class, not a brqnch or staircase?

 

well, those transition forms are changing very rapidly are they?

haven't seen a fossil with a slow change, did Saber Tooths loose their long teeth at once

or did it shorten slowly?

 

opik will be glad if opik can grow wings in opik's back if opik felt like it

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Why are you referring to yourself in the third person? It is weird.

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Surely?

 

well, how if opik say it's just a spesies of tiger?

just like birds with teeth, ism't it just a sub class, not a brqnch or staircase?

 

well, those transition forms are changing very rapidly are they?

haven't seen a fossil with a slow change, did Saber Tooths loose their long teeth at once

or did it shorten slowly?

 

opik will be glad if opik can grow wings in opik's back if opik felt like it

 

It would help if you looked up "species" - Wikipedia has a good article. Yes, modern tigers and sabre-toothed tigers are different species. "Birds" isn't a species, "dusky woodswallow" and "white-breasted woodswallow" are examples of species within the Class Aves (birds).

 

What do you mean that you haven't seen a fossil showing slow change? The fossil record for humans and their ancestors shows slow change.

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what are the ancestors of human?

 

point them from the one closest to human till the most far

 

and what changes? how about their distribution?

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Homo sapiens sapiens' most distant known ancestor is whatever is the oldest known single-cell animal. Its closest known ancestor is one of a number of potential ancestors found in Africa.

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Here we go round in circles again. using the same logic, who created Allah ??

 

 

God by definition is uncreated- if God/Allah was created then you need to ask 'who created 'God's Creator- and then WHO created THAT Creator ad infinitum- so its illogical/ a non question.

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God by definition is uncreated- if God/Allah was created then you need to ask 'who created 'God's Creator- and then WHO created THAT Creator ad infinitum- so its illogical/ a non question.

1. That definition could be true of the universe. The universe could be uncreated as well and it would be illogical to question it. The problem is a lack of verifiable evidence on both the creation of the universe and on God.

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Teacher: God doesn't exist. All life on Earth is descended from a common ancestor. However, this has nothing to do with whether or not god exists.

 

Joseph: Well, I don't agree. That theory doesn't make sense. I believe that we are created by God.

 

Teacher: Well then, tell me how come we don't see God?

 

Joseph: You don't need to see Him. The Truth about His existence is crystal clear.

 

Teacher: How is it clear?

 

Joseph: (looking at the teacher's watch) Ma'am, I didn't see with my own eyes who made your watch. But I know for sure it wasn't an elephant.

 

Teacher: The watchmaker argument is horribly flawed. We can observe people making watches. We cannot observe god creating humans or anything else. And you are comparing something that is unnatural with something that is natural.

 

Joseph: You don't need to actually see with your eyes who made that watch because it is clear that only man could have made it.

 

Teacher: I must admit you are right about the fact that only people have the ability to make watches.

 

Joseph: Then isn't it clear that the sun and the moon were made by Someone who had the ability to make it? Tell me, respected teacher, if it wasn't God who made the sun and the moon, the trees and the mountains, the rivers and the oceans and you and me.......if it wasn't God who created all these things, then who did?!

 

Teacher: No. We know how these things formed. They formed naturally. Read a book about astronomy or earth sciences.

Have you ever herped so hard you derped?

 

Joseph: I think I just did.

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Peace is Power,

 

In your OP, you (and Yunus bin Adam) have made two, major, logical errors, apparently failing to realize that:

 

1. Deductive logic is incapable of generating new information; it's "only" capable of generating new knowledge about existing information; if you seek new information (e.g., about the existence of some god), then new data must be obtained. That's why all deductive "proofs" of the existence of any god are invalid and, as Immanuel Kant said, "so much labor lost".

 

2. Reasoning by analogy (e.g., the clock analogy) can never establish a new truth; at best, analogies are useful to help convey some argument, but unless every single detail of the analogy is identical to the case under consideration (in which case it would no longer be an analogy!), then as David Hume demonstrated, any "proof by analogy" is invalid.

 

You and Yunus bin Adam have also failed to understand the meaning of 'truth', but that's a topic that I won't address here. If you are interested, I explore the topic in two chapters ("Truth and Knowledge" and "Truth and Understanding") of my free book that you can find by searching on the internet for "zenofzero".

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okay enough. the way you guys argue is very childish.resorting to words like stupidy and those degrading and insulting words.. I as a muslim shall continue to believe in my faith of my knowledge given by the Quran. and I fair enough, the same opportunity should be given to you to believe in the knowledge you have recieved,whoever you might be,weather of any religion, an athiest or even a freethinker.

 

For now I shall be a neutral party and I'll speak using logic itself

Let us admit one thing here. NOONE in this world knows what would happen to himself/herself when he/she dies.To Muslims, Islam believes a different thing, Other religions may beleive a different thing and you might believe a different thing. But Lets keep one thing for certain.. Until that day comes, noone has the right to say anything about what happens after death because noone amongst us,currently living in this world,ALIVE, has experienced it before. We are ALL guided by this thing called Faith in what we believe in and what we know. same thing with the topic of the Universe. Did anyone here create it? did anyone here SEE who creates it? can anyone testify that he's seen it and prove it? NO.

We are all guided by faith an knowledge.

 

Muslims are guided by the knowledge and faith in our Phrophets, the Qurans and even Hadiths.

 

Non muslims may have different ways of guidance by the knowledge they recieved by their own beliefs,sciences and even theories

 

well the bottom line is.. we will only know which faith and knowledge is the truth until we experience and witness the event which cannot be proven by anything at all such as death. if what happens in death is solely according to the Quran then we're right all along but its too late for you to repent already and you'd have no say. but if its not then yea practically what we're practicing is pure vanity..and we'd have no say.

 

al lwe can do now is have faith in the knowledge we have and just wait for the day. The time will come don't worry.Noone could escape death maybe not 50 years down the road but tomorrow, who knows.. Understand that these are the limitations of us Humans. The inability to know about the unknown. like walking in the darkness trying to find an invisible door. if faith that keeps whispering to you " there's an exist somewhere. just keep walking and we'll sure to find it" doesnt exist, what else is there to guide you?

Soul of Ice, I support your sentiments expressed in your first few paragraphs above, but I note that your subsequent argument contains errors similar to those of Pascal's Wager, known as "the either-or fallacy" and (without meaning to insult you) the "argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy".

 

The "argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy" is particularly devious, since it offends most people's sense of justice. In most judicial systems, the "burden of proof" falls on the prosecutors and the "burden of consequences" falls on the guilty parties. But in such an argument as you propose, the prosecutors (clerics) shirk the "burden of proof": they pass it onto the accused (i.e., the people) who then must also accept the "burden of consequences", even though they were never found guilty.

 

As an analogy, if someone told you that there's water in the middle of a hundred-mile stretch of desert and, therefore, you'll be okay if you set out on a trek across the desert, wouldn't you want proof that the water is there before you set out on your trek? Similar to all clerics, the claimant is asking you to accept the burden of consequences of his own ignorance.

 

As for the "either-or fallacy", fortunately for humanity, I recently had a little chit-chat with God, and She let me in on the skinny.

 

She said that it's not all fun and games running the universe. She asked if I had any idea how hard it was to keep all the physical constants in the universe sufficiently "fine tuned" to permit life to continue, to ensure that pesky old dark energy didn't blow the universe apart, to ensure that Black Holes didn't gobble up every galaxy and then merge, returning the universe to its original state of total nothingness, and so on.

 

I admitted that I didn't fully appreciate the difficulties.

 

She said that She wanted some help, especially since the rate of expansion of the universe is increasing and dark energy is getting even darker. So, She's testing people.

 

She said She's looking for a few diligent and intelligent people who hold beliefs only as strongly as relevant evidence warrants. To that end, She sent down a bunch of confusing messages in various "holy books". The test is: those who believe what's in such books, basing their beliefs on their own wishful thinking, on what other people say, etc. (rather than basing their beliefs on evidence) fail the test.

 

That's her way to winnow the wheat from the chaff. The chaff, She discards (the elementary particles of which they were made, however, She reuses). Those who pass the test become candidates to help Her.

 

By the way, She specifically warned me not to tell anyone about the details of Her test, but shucks, who's afraid of

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1. That definition could be true of the universe. The universe could be uncreated as well and it would be illogical to question it. The problem is a lack of verifiable evidence on both the creation of the universe and on God.

It cannot be true for the universe as if it was infinite usable energy would have long ran out. There is a scientific reason as to why it cannot be infinite. Since God falls out of the realm of science you must then use logic to prove his infinite existence.

 

Simply, if God had a creator and so on, the endless list of creators would stretch back forever, we would never have been created.

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It cannot be true for the universe as if it was infinite usable energy would have long ran out.

That's incorrect. The total energy of the universe is (and always has been) exactly zero: the positive energy with which we're familiar (including the energy that "condensed" into mass) is exactly balanced by the negative energy of space (also called "the vacuum"). That's consistent with the idea that the universe created itself via a quantum-like symmetry-breaking fluctuation (e.g., of energy, leading to the creation of the first elementary particle) in an original "total nothingness", which then led to the Big Bang.

 

… if God had a creator and so on, the endless list of creators would stretch back forever, we would never have been created.

Which then leaves open the obvious logical option that God doesn't exist, assuming that you're correct that God couldn't have been created. I would however point out that you have assumed (in your use of the word 'forever') that time existed before energy was formed. But according to Noether's Theorem, time has no meaning in the absence of energy. Therefore, before the Big Bang, there was no time.

 

On the other hand, if the universe created itself via a symmetry-breaking quantum-like fluctuation in "total nothingness", then a similar (but vastly more complicated) fluctuation could have created God! The probability that a fluctuation in "total nothingness" could have created not just a single, elemenatary particle but God, however, is obviously vastly smaller than the probability that, e.g., the positive-energy side of a fluctuation condensed into an elementary particle, leading to the Big Bang. Elsewhere (see the chapter entitled "Indoctrination in Ignorance" in my free e-book that you can find by searching for "zenofzero"), I've estimated the probability that such a fluctuation could lead directly to God and found it be much less than 1 part in 10^500. So, if String Theory is correct that there are about 10^500 other "verses" (i.e., "multiverses"), then in one of them, God may exist. The probability that God exists in our universe, however, is again back down to less than 1 part in 10^500, i.e., totally negligible.

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Apparently I'm also not permitted to edit my posts. So, this post is to say that, rather than write

But according to Noether's Theorem, time has no meaning in the absence of energy. Therefore, before the Big Bang, there was no time.

I should have written:

 

But according to Noether's Theorem, (positive) time has no meaning in the absence of (positive) energy. Therefore, "before the Big Bang" (where the concept of "before the Big Bang" is actually as meaningless as "forever"), there was no time.

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Peace is Power,

 

In your OP, you (and Yunus bin Adam) have made two, major, logical errors, apparently failing to realize that:

 

1. Deductive logic is incapable of generating new information; it's "only" capable of generating new knowledge about existing information; if you seek new information (e.g., about the existence of some god), then new data must be obtained. That's why all deductive "proofs" of the existence of any god are invalid and, as Immanuel Kant said, "so much labor lost".

 

2. Reasoning by analogy (e.g., the clock analogy) can never establish a new truth; at best, analogies are useful to help convey some argument, but unless every single detail of the analogy is identical to the case under consideration (in which case it would no longer be an analogy!), then as David Hume demonstrated, any "proof by analogy" is invalid.

 

You and Yunus bin Adam have also failed to understand the meaning of 'truth', but that's a topic that I won't address here. If you are interested, I explore the topic in two chapters ("Truth and Knowledge" and "Truth and Understanding") of my free book that you can find by searching on the internet for "zenofzero".

 

Zoro, let me prewarned you that you are about to have your backside kicked, but you wouldn't even know it since everything do not really exist do they, including you..

 

It is rather amazing that these Atheists are quick to point out to others, hey you cannot use deductive logic, you cannot use reasoning by analogy, they are flawed arguments.. yet fail to see that they are using the exact same thing to arrive to their sets of belief, even willing to dispute established scientific facts and common sense if they have to..uh uh we don't believe anyone can be infinite, but we believe 'matters' can infinite..yea right..

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Rahimi, I'm very sorry about how they abused you when you were still a child. But you should realize that, by now trying to take out your revenge on others, you're hurting yourself even more. For example, others can read what I wrote and then what you wrote. Think, then, of their assessments of you. I would also recommend that you think about the wise advice from Confucius, "Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves", and the even wiser advice from George Herbert (1599–1633), normally now relayed as:

The best revenge is to live well.

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Rahimi, I'm very sorry about how they abused you when you were still a child. But you should realize that, by now trying to take out your revenge on others, you're hurting yourself even more. For example, others can read what I wrote and then what you wrote. Think, then, of their assessments of you. I would also recommend that you think about the wise advice from Confucius, "Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves", and the even wiser advice from George Herbert (1599–1633), normally now relayed as:

 

Say what? Is this you off the med? I’m sorry too that your parents had given you up to an orphanage on the day you were born, and I’m sorry that the orphanage kicked you out when you were three and you have to live on the street and nobody wants to be your friend..

Zoro. What the h*ck are you talking about? You must have confused me for your pal xocoti. Perhaps he wrote you an email telling you about his past abuse and you thought it was from me? Take you med man..I have two greatest parents that I would never swap for anybody else in the world ok!

And where is your friend Tim the Plumber? He was supposed to show me scientific proofs of his kind heart..

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I have two greatest parents that I would never swap for anybody else in the world ok!

Certainly, Rahimi, but why did you mention your parents? I didn't say anything about them. I assume that they taught you well, and taught you about Heaven and Hell. Right?

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Hi Rahimi

What does Allah do for you that you are so convinced that he exists?

Moral Salaam

 

Salam, if you asked 'what Allah did not do' that would be a little easier to answer..

He gave me my seeing, my hearing, the food that I ate, the water that I drink, the air that I breath, 4 beautiful children, the ground that I walk on.. in short just about everything..

What convinced you that He doesn't exist?

 

Certainly, Rahimi, but why did you mention your parents? I didn't say anything about them. I assume that they taught you well, and taught you about Heaven and Hell. Right?

I naively assumed that the worst case scenario is when a child is abused by his/her own parents..to have parents that let others abused you wow that is off the chart..you need help Zoro..

Edited by RAHIMI

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My mother gave me sight. That is a lot better than those people who are born blind or lose their eye sight. If Allah gave you your eye sight then it was Allah who gave the blind NO sight. That does not make him very respectable. Why would he make a baby blind?

I work, earn the money that I make and that buys me food and drink. That is a lot better than the many millions of people who suffer hunger day in and day out. I am more fortunate than the millions of people who have been malnourished or starved to death on this earth. I suppose that Allah has to be blamed for the starving, because you attribute your good fortune to him, then he is responible for the misfortune of others.

If he has given you four beautiful children, then it was he that gave other parents NO children, or children that are ugly, or children that are born with mental and physical retardation. It was he that gave some other parents babies that died in the womb. Again, he doesn't seem a very nice being.

I walk on the same earth as you, but I am not aware of him giving it to me. The tooth fairy once gave me a coin for my tooth, but I don't believe in tooth fairies. I know that it was a trick that my parents performed on me. Perhaps you would like to correct me on that one. Maybe the tooth fairy WAS real, and not a trick by my parents?

Moral Sallam

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My mother gave me sight. That is a lot better than those people who are born blind or lose their eye sight. If Allah gave you your eye sight then it was Allah who gave the blind NO sight. That does not make him very respectable. Why would he make a baby blind?

Your mother gave you your eyes? What did she do? Reached inside her own womb and arrange oh these cells go here, that cells go there? The eyes are highly complex machines and it is impossible for all the cells to arrange themselves to form them. As Muslims we believe that Allah has ultimate wisdom and we are not to question why He does certain things like not giving some people their eyes. Personally, I can't thank Allah enough for my seeing whenever I see a blind person. Go and find a blind person and ask him, would he rather die than being blind? Chances are, he probably tell you hundreds of things that are worth living for..

 

Now you dislike some of the things going on, blindness, deafness, starvations, evils, but none of this are reason to claim that God does not exist. If a child was killed and murdered, we all would conclude that it is 'evil' but we cannot say God is evil since we do not know the 'absolute truth', and this does not in anyway disprove that God exists.

What if 'life' itself carries on beyond the first death? What if the child that was killed is taken to a garden where she would be happy and no harm would come to her. What if the time comes when she can demand justice against those who did her wrong? What if she can wait for her parents and has special privilege to save them from harm? If you know this and these are true, then would you still think that God is evil?

 

Just apply this rationale to the rest of your points and ponder about them..gotta to go..

Edited by RAHIMI

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I can see your problem Rahimi, as you stated that "As Muslims we believe that Allah has ultimate wisdom and we are not to question why He does certain things like not giving some people their eyes."

What does it make you that you don't ask questions? I would suggest that it makes you gullible and susceptible to indoctrination. You accept statements that your clergy tell you as fact.

Mohammed made sure that you don't ask questions, as to do so you would be stoned to death. In many Islamic countries that is still the penalty that you pay. Death. But it is not death at the hands of Allah, because Allah does not exist. It is at the hands of people who consider that they are the instruments of Allah, that they can kill in the name of Allah. It is always people who kill the doubters, never Allah. Allah lives in your mind, just as the tooth fairy lived in my mind. But while I questioned whether a tooth fairy actually existed, you don't question whether Allah exists.

You believe what is told to you because you are indoctrinated, not only in what you are told, but by the fear inculcated into you by your religious masters. You are not allowed to think or question what you are told.

By coming to the conclusion that if Allah gave you good fortune, then by definition he gave others misfortune, I simply say that if Allah exists, then he is a sadistic and bad being.

Your what ifs are no more than what ifs. If it is Allah that gives people sight, then it is Allah that makes people blind. If it is Allah that makes some beautiful, then it is Allah that makes some ugly and deformed. If it is Allah that gives some food, then it is Allah that denies others food.

If you thank Allah when you see a blind person, just because you can see, why don't you condemn him because he has made that other person blind? Is it because you are selfish, only thinking of yourself?

Moral Salaam

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