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UmmSuleiman

Why Atheism Doesn't Make Sense

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I can see your problem Rahimi, as you stated that "As Muslims we believe that Allah has ultimate wisdom and we are not to question why He does certain things like not giving some people their eyes."

What does it make you that you don't ask questions? I would suggest that it makes you gullible and susceptible to indoctrination. You accept statements that your clergy tell you as fact.

 

Well the reason being, ultimately the one who is going to be judged and put on trial is us humans, not Allah. For example, if He has given you eyes, He will ask you what have you done with them,things you looked at etc. if He has not given you eyes, He would not ask you and you would not be held accountable..Apply that to all other bodily faculties that you have..makes sense?

Asking questions is not something prohibited in Islam BTW,..In the example of blindness, how could we 'appreciate or be thankful' of our faculty of sight if there are no blind people? How could we know or choose to do good if there are no evil?

As per your toothfairies, we can conclude that they do not exist because there are no evidence and proof of their existence. The complexities and Intricacies of our universe and various systems within ourselves, all the creatures around us, are proof and evidence enough for those who would ponder on the existence of the One who brought them into existence..

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Come on Rahimi, stop being silly.

How would you know, if he were to exist, what he would ask? If he is all powerful, everywhere all the time, why would he even need to ask?

You think that Allah makes someone blind so that the sighted can appreciate that they are not blind? How is that fair?

If you are incapable of knowing what are fair and decent decisions in your life, how you should interact with others without believing insome hocus pocus Allah, concocted by Musa, and further indoctrinated by Mohammed, then you are a sad specimen of humanity.

Tooth Fairies exist until such time as the deceit is uncovered. The deceit of Allah is almost impossible to expose because he is ONLY in the imagination. In fact, the Tooth Fiary left me some money. Allah of course has not.

Moral Salaam

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I naively assumed that the worst case scenario is when a child is abused by his/her own parents..to have parents that let others abused you wow that is off the chart..you need help Zoro..

I ask again: did your parents teach you about Heaven and Hell? If not, who did?

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Come on Rahimi, stop being silly.

How would you know, if he were to exist, what he would ask? If he is all powerful, everywhere all the time, why would he even need to ask?

That was just to illustrate the point, some people would get thrown straight into hell, perhaps with no question ask, Allah Knows best.

 

You think that Allah makes someone blind so that the sighted can appreciate that they are not blind? How is that fair?

As I said earlier, you can only say something is truly evil or something is truly unfair if you know the absolute truth, which you don’t. Also this life stage is only temporary, the next is permanent. All would be tested, and some would be tests for others, eg poor people, how could we be charitable if everyone's rich, therefore poor people are test for rich ones..clear?

 

If you are incapable of knowing what are fair and decent decisions in your life, how you should interact with others without believing insome hocus pocus Allah, concocted by Musa, and further indoctrinated by Mohammed, then you are a sad specimen of humanity.

 

Let's put your hocus pocus to test:

Let’s see, let say you arrive home and found 2 sets of the most sophisticated video cameras known to men, (but nothing compare to human eyes), in your living room. Question:Who designed& made them?

My answer:

Men with skills, knowhow, intellect, capability

Your Answer:

You mother made them, nothing made them i.e they just appeared from thin air like magic or the cameras made themselves i.e selt built.

It is clear here that YOU are the one hocus pokey..clear?

 

Tooth Fairies exist until such time as the deceit is uncovered. The deceit of Allah is almost impossible to expose because he is ONLY in the imagination. In fact, the Tooth Fiary left me some money. Allah of course has not.

Moral Salaam

So when you were inside your mother's womb, she switched on your heart and the fact that your are breathing and your heart is beating, even when you are deep asleep, are all due to you? Think about this alittle..& apply the same 'hocus pocus' test like above.

 

I ask again: did your parents teach you about Heaven and Hell? If not, who did?

Zoro, let me ask you the same question, did your parent teach you no heaven no hell etc etc?

What is the your point? Being taught the right or wrong thing would make the right wrong or the wrong right? This is moot argument as far as I’m concerned, I suggest you take this up with your pal xocoti, <sarcasm>he can answer everything. <end sarcasm>

Edited by RAHIMI

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Dear Rahimi,

Do you actually take yourself seriously.

My mother gave birth to me. Of course she doesn't give birth to cameras.

You're now expanding the sighted/blind arguement. If Allah made some people blind just so that others could be grateful for their sight, then dear Rahimi, he is nothing but a callous thug. If you suggest that he makes some people poor so that the rich can be tested, then it confirms that Allah is a callous thug. Why can't you see that? HE makes people suffer to test others. How is that fair?

How do you imagine that there is another life after this one?

You imagine it because Musa and Mohammed were convincing, because they have defrauded you and many like you, to believe in Allah. Indeed Musa never talked about Heaven or Hell. That was the domain of Jesus and Mohammed.

What guarantee do you have that there is a life after you die in some heavenly place? Absolutely none. Heaven was concocted so that people would think that justice would be carried out, and that wrongdoers would face justice. The Christian and Islamic rulers also thought that an after-life was a good idea because their soldiers would die for the cause of their leaders.

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Dear Rahimi,

Do you actually take yourself seriously.

My mother gave birth to me. Of course she doesn't give birth to cameras.

You're now expanding the sighted/blind arguement. If Allah made some people blind just so that others could be grateful for their sight, then dear Rahimi, he is nothing but a callous thug. If you suggest that he makes some people poor so that the rich can be tested, then it confirms that Allah is a callous thug. Why can't you see that? HE makes people suffer to test others. How is that fair?

Well what a foul mouth you have there ..So that you know, Allah is worshiped by billions, only those with appalling lack of morality or manners would see it fit to insult Him when you know full well that we are Muslims.

You have clearly shown your lack of reading comprehension and I don’t think you have any desire to learn about Islam either.

Sadly, this is my last response to you & I have to click on the report button for your obscene lack of manners.. bye bye..

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Zoro, let me ask you the same question, did your parent teach you no heaven no hell etc etc?

No, quite the opposite: my mother (and her Catholic clerics) drummed into my childish head that there WAS a heaven and a hell. (My father was away most of the time, e.g., fighting Hitler's supremacist ideas that his was the only way for people to live, that he knew "the truth").

 

When I was about eight or so, I saw that my mother and her clerics didn't know what they were talking about, that it was all just make believe, that they were all just made-up stories (like the stories about Santa Claus) used to try to get kids (and childish adults) to do what they were told. I saw that all ideas about all gods were garbage. So, I said, in effect, to hell with their stories about gods and heaven and hell. I claimed my own life, I refused to go to church, I chose to live as I best saw fit, I learned that morality is entirely a human affair (guides for people to live productively within communities), and I began to see what atrocities have been caused when people don't think for themselves.

 

You, on the other hand, although you have repeatedly avoided answering my questions, apparently never had the courage to think for yourself. You, I surmise, were indoctrinated as a child in the childish idea of gods and the fictitious stories about heaven and hell. It's child abuse. Some of us get over it. Obviously you haven't. I'm very sorry that you were abused so badly. I hope that you're not similarly abusing your own children in religious balderdash. If you are, you're guilty of attempting to turn potentially brilliant new minds into still more drones – for the clerics to send to war, to protect their own parasitic existences.

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No, quite the opposite: my mother (and her Catholic clerics) drummed into my childish head that there WAS a heaven and a hell. (My father was away most of the time, e.g., fighting Hitler's supremacist ideas that his was the only way for people to live, that he knew "the truth").

 

When I was about eight or so, I saw that my mother and her clerics didn't know what they were talking about, that it was all just make believe, that they were all just made-up stories (like the stories about Santa Claus) used to try to get kids (and childish adults) to do what they were told. I saw that all ideas about all gods were garbage. So, I said, in effect, to hell with their stories about gods and heaven and hell. I claimed my own life, I refused to go to church, I chose to live as I best saw fit, I learned that morality is entirely a human affair (guides for people to live productively within communities), and I began to see what atrocities have been caused when people don't think for themselves.

Wow, so you have got everything all figured our ever since you were eight? I see, that’s kind of explain it..

 

A couple of points, I guess this kind of show how bad or how destructive mixing truth and lies is. Santa Clause, toothfairies, you people (Christians) seem to have a lot of these type of things, however, hardly any of these types of things, if any, in Muslim families. This could be one of the reasons of the spread of atheism among Christians, kids discovering they been lied to.

 

One other point is, you know children adore their parents and think their parents are the greatest, hence to see their parents bowing down in prostration worshipping an unseen God would leave some effect too..I think this could be one other reason why people who grew up in Muslims family tend to stay as Muslims. On the other hand, Christian kids see their parents singing and dancing in churches..

 

Yes my parents taught me, but subsequence learning and knowledge that makes everything falls in place, everything makes sense, reason and logic wise. Unlike Christianity where kids are taught to believe something that is impossible to believe. Just ask Lux the Soap Bar, no matter how much he tried to explain trinity, none of it makes sense. Atheism too is against logic and reason, but I guess you know that..

 

So, what you have now is based some thinking of an abused 8 year old? How swell..good luck to you..

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Wow, so you have got everything all figured our ever since you were eight? I see, that’s kind of explain it..

 

A couple of points, I guess this kind of show how bad or how destructive mixing truth and lies is. Santa Clause, toothfairies, you people (Christians) seem to have a lot of these type of things, however, hardly any of these types of things, if any, in Muslim families. This could be one of the reasons of the spread of atheism among Christians, kids discovering they been lied to.

 

One other point is, you know children adore their parents and think their parents are the greatest, hence to see their parents bowing down in prostration worshipping an unseen God would leave some effect too..I think this could be one other reason why people who grew up in Muslims family tend to stay as Muslims. On the other hand, Christian kids see their parents singing and dancing in churches..

 

Yes my parents taught me, but subsequence learning and knowledge that makes everything falls in place, everything makes sense, reason and logic wise. Unlike Christianity where kids are taught to believe something that is impossible to believe. Just ask Lux the Soap Bar, no matter how much he tried to explain trinity, none of it makes sense. Atheism too is against logic and reason, but I guess you know that..

 

So, what you have now is based some thinking of an abused 8 year old? How swell..good luck to you..

it is an interesting hypothesis but there are more likely explanations. First, athiesm seems to be more likey in Christian countries because of the rise of secularism and tolerance in dissenting ideas and ideologies. A focus on individual rights instead community cohesion. We can see the difference in the Maldives where by law their can be no other religion and when an Ex Muslim declared that he no longer believed in Islam he was threatened with death, to have his citizenship removed, and tortured. There are also structural edits placed in Islam that encourages violence and coercion against dissenters. Any public sentiment that questions the veracity of Islam is met with government action as seen with the Palestine Blogger who was jailed for questioning Islam and vigilante justice as in the cases in Pakistan.

 

With these structures, both formal and informal, it is more likely that dissenting and questioning views would arise in Western nations. That being said, there are plenty of Ex Muslim athiests in Islamic countries. Many of them are afraid for their lives and their social status. On top of that there are far more who aren't athiests but don't really believe in Islam, they just follow the cultural norms.

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Just to add that there also many knowledgeable Muslims who did not come from Muslims background, we have sheiks and scholars who were previously Christains, Hindus, Buddhas etc. There are also those who were born Muslims but do not practice the religion and there are also those who given up Islam altogether, although the number tend to be small. To draw some kind of parrallel would be quite tedious..anyway..

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Well what a foul mouth you have there ..So that you know, Allah is worshiped by billions, only those with appalling lack of morality or manners would see it fit to insult Him when you know full well that we are Muslims.

You have clearly shown your lack of reading comprehension and I don’t think you have any desire to learn about Islam either.

Sadly, this is my last response to you & I have to click on the report button for your obscene lack of manners.. bye bye..

 

Monotheism hasnt ever completely absolved itself of the issue God allowing sin. The idea of allowing sin as a test seems to make God caprious, and arrogant because if he wished he could grant all of is heaven without the test, after all we are his creation. If he is all powerful and he allows sin then he is guilty of negligence of his ward. To say that we cannot know if this is true is to negate any knowledge of God because any knowledge would be incomplete. If we cannot say that God seems to be bad from what we know how can we say that he is good? Perhaps we could say that he is good if we had complete knowledge but we don't so we could presume that God is perfectly evil and any goodness attributed to God is merely an illusion of incomplete knowledge or trickery that we are not aware of.

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Monotheism hasnt ever completely absolved itself of the issue God allowing sin. The idea of allowing sin as a test seems to make God caprious, and arrogant because if he wished he could grant all of is heaven without the test, after all we are his creation. If he is all powerful and he allows sin then he is guilty of negligence of his ward. To say that we cannot know if this is true is to negate any knowledge of God because any knowledge would be incomplete. If we cannot say that God seems to be bad from what we know how can we say that he is good? Perhaps we could say that he is good if we had complete knowledge but we don't so we could presume that God is perfectly evil and any goodness attributed to God is merely an illusion of incomplete knowledge or trickery that we are not aware of.

 

Xocoti, so that is your concept of perfection and I'm not going to argue with you.

If that is the case, then life as we know it would be utterly meaningless. The fact of the matter and the reality is, we, unlike animals, are creature of free choice, we have the capability to choose to do right and wrong, we have faculty of reason and common sense & we have the ability to ponder upon things.

The choice, as they say, is up to you..

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Wow, so you have got everything all figured our ever since you were eight? I see, that’s kind of explain it..

 

A couple of points, I guess this kind of show how bad or how destructive mixing truth and lies is. Santa Clause, toothfairies, you people (Christians) seem to have a lot of these type of things, however, hardly any of these types of things, if any, in Muslim families. This could be one of the reasons of the spread of atheism among Christians, kids discovering they been lied to.

I agree with xocoti that yours is an interesting hypothesis. If it were so and if you weren't the first person to see it, then wouldn't it make you think that Muslim clerics might have also seen it –and therefore banned such ideas, for fear that such ideas could destroy their con game?!

 

One other point is, you know children adore their parents and think their parents are the greatest, hence to see their parents bowing down in prostration worshipping an unseen God would leave some effect too..I think this could be one other reason why people who grew up in Muslims family tend to stay as Muslims. On the other hand, Christian kids see their parents singing and dancing in churches..

Yes, kids mimic their parents. It has survival advantage. That's why indoctrinating kids in religious balderdash is both so effective and so hideous. When humanity advances, the immorality of it will be classified as a crime.

 

Yes my parents taught me, but subsequence learning and knowledge that makes everything falls in place, everything makes sense, reason and logic wise. Unlike Christianity where kids are taught to believe something that is impossible to believe. Just ask Lux the Soap Bar, no matter how much he tried to explain trinity, none of it makes sense. Atheism too is against logic and reason, but I guess you know that..

You are so horribly confused; I don't know if you'll ever have the courage to recognize your errors.

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Well what a foul mouth you have there ..So that you know, Allah is worshiped by billions, only those with appalling lack of morality or manners would see it fit to insult Him when you know full well that we are Muslims.

You have clearly shown your lack of reading comprehension and I don’t think you have any desire to learn about Islam either.

Sadly, this is my last response to you & I have to click on the report button for your obscene lack of manners.. bye bye..

So, since you can't cope with Moral Salaam's thoughtful ideas, you'll run and tell your daddy that the bad boy is being naughty – making you think. That's pathetic, Rahimi: if you can't defend your ideas because they're indefensible, then how about considering the brave possibility of changing your ideas? Too much for you?

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Dear Rahimi,

You try to shut me out because I said something. You claim that Allah is all powerful, benevolent and understanding. Surely he can look after himself. Why do you think that you have to act for him?

Peace be with you

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Dear Rahimi,

You try to shut me out because I said something. You claim that Allah is all powerful, benevolent and understanding. Surely he can look after himself. Why do you think that you have to act for him?

Peace be with you

I shut you out because you have no idea who Allah is, and you know full well that Muslims worship Him. First off, you should know that Allah is nothing like His creatures and His creation, therefore to apply the same 'yardstick' or to compare Him to humans is rather irrational. He created the universe,think about the sheer size of universe and we are just humans living this puny planet.

Look,you can insult me for all you want but do not insult Allah and His prophets until you have some knowledge and learnt about them first (from legitimate source). Is that fair? Sure it's fair and a reasonable thing to ask for especially from the one who calls himself 'Moral Salaam' ,do you any idea of the meaning of the words?

 

So, since you can't cope with Moral Salaam's thoughtful ideas, you'll run and tell your daddy that the bad boy is being naughty – making you think. That's pathetic, Rahimi: if you can't defend your ideas because they're indefensible, then how about considering the brave possibility of changing your ideas? Too much for you?

Thoughtful ideas? perhaps to an 8 year old..Hey Zoro, I figured something out when I was 8 too, like if you want to pitch fruits that don't belong to you, watermelon is a bad idea...Look, your mind and arguments may have 'grown up ' but they are still based on the rationality and thinking of an 8 year old..

Edited by RAHIMI

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do not insult Allah and His prophets until you have some knowledge and learnt about them first (from legitimate source). Is that fair? Sure it's fair and a reasonable thing to ask for especially from the one who calls himself 'Moral Salaam' ,do you any idea of the meaning of the words?

I don't get it. Who is more powerful, who can defend themselves more, you or Allah? Why can't Allah look after himself? Because there is no such thing as a god, and Allah is supposedly a god. You, on the other hand ARE real.

Too many people die and kill in the name of gods. Gods don't kill because they don't exist.

I have looked at more religion than you could possibly imagine. They are all frauds.

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I don't get it. Who is more powerful, who can defend themselves more, you or Allah? Why can't Allah look after himself? Because there is no such thing as a god, and Allah is supposedly a god. You, on the other hand ARE real.

Too many people die and kill in the name of gods. Gods don't kill because they don't exist.

I have looked at more religion than you could possibly imagine. They are all frauds.

You are not getting it, it is called human decency, good manners and common sense, most people who has mentality above that of a 5 year old and not retarded usually has this.

Let say I walk into a house of Hindus and saw a stone idol that they worship, it would be an extreme lack of manners on my part if I said something like, 'what a useless piece of stone you are' to the idol, because I know that would be offensive to those people who are Hindus, and to do that do not serve any purpose whatsoever. What has insulting idols that these people worship has anything to do with knowing or learning about Hinduism? Absolutely nothing.

Please tell me that you can comprehend this else I'm just going to assume that you are partly retarded and are not worth talking to.

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Why are you telling me that I don't get it, when I told you I don't get it?

Why don't you read the whole message?

I'm not singling out your faith, I'm pointing out that ALL gods are fictitious frauds.

They have no basis of fact.

They take no action.

Man takes action believing in impossibilities called gods, people like you who would hate and kill in the name of a god who doesn't exist. Gods take no action on their own behalf.

You are simply perpetuating a fraud, and that is indecent. You have never communicated with your god. Not eve Mohammed communicated with Allah. He merely claimed that he communicated with Allah's angel.

Your assertion of an after life is absolutely without guarantee.

As for manners, what manners did the Islamic empire show towards the people that it annihilated on the way to its expansion? None. What manners do Muslim extremists show towards those they maim and kill? None.

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Rahimi,

Allah had not prophets. There is no Allah, and the supposed prophets are frauds. They have all pretended to communicate with something that is not there.

I show no disrepect to anyone. However, I don't take stories on face value without proof. There is no proof that any gods exist. Not the god of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Bahai, Hindu or any other.

If you don't question anything, you are treated by those who lead you as a fool. That is no different with any religious masters. Perhaps you are a religious master.

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That's incorrect. The total energy of the universe is (and always has been) exactly zero: the positive energy with which we're familiar (including the energy that "condensed" into mass) is exactly balanced by the negative energy of space (also called "the vacuum"). That's consistent with the idea that the universe created itself via a quantum-like symmetry-breaking fluctuation (e.g., of energy, leading to the creation of the first elementary particle) in an original "total nothingness", which then led to the Big Bang.

Which then leaves open the obvious logical option that God doesn't exist, assuming that you're correct that God couldn't have been created. I would however point out that you have assumed (in your use of the word 'forever') that time existed before energy was formed. But according to Noether's Theorem, time has no meaning in the absence of energy. Therefore, before the Big Bang, there was no time.

 

On the other hand, if the universe created itself via a symmetry-breaking quantum-like fluctuation in "total nothingness", then a similar (but vastly more complicated) fluctuation could have created God! The probability that a fluctuation in "total nothingness" could have created not just a single, elemenatary particle but God, however, is obviously vastly smaller than the probability that, e.g., the positive-energy side of a fluctuation condensed into an elementary particle, leading to the Big Bang. Elsewhere (see the chapter entitled "Indoctrination in Ignorance" in my free e-book that you can find by searching for "zenofzero"), I've estimated the probability that such a fluctuation could lead directly to God and found it be much less than 1 part in 10^500. So, if String Theory is correct that there are about 10^500 other "verses" (i.e., "multiverses"), then in one of them, God may exist. The probability that God exists in our universe, however, is again back down to less than 1 part in 10^500, i.e., totally negligible.

No its correct. I stated usable energy, the rest of the energy doesn't matter if it balances to zero if its unusable for reactions. im sure you have heard of the heat death theory..all energy will eventually convert to heat and life and all other processess will cease. thats what would happen to an infinite universe.

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Rahimi,

Allah had not prophets. There is no Allah, and the supposed prophets are frauds. They have all pretended to communicate with something that is not there.

I show no disrepect to anyone. However, I don't take stories on face value without proof. There is no proof that any gods exist. Not the god of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Bahai, Hindu or any other.

If you don't question anything, you are treated by those who lead you as a fool. That is no different with any religious masters. Perhaps you are a religious master.

 

 

I don't really agree. Your defintion of 'something not there' is your own. I think the source of the 'communication' is not easily defined; not then, not now and maybe never will be. What do you have to say about a 'communication' arising from one's own subconscious, I wonder. What do you have to say about a 'communication' arising from a knowledge which is practically impossible to put into words?

You need to examine your concepts and boundaries of your own defintions of reality, I think.

 

There may never be any 'proof' (presumably scientific) because it is entirely possible that 'God' is actually beyond our present level of 'science', as we currently understand it.

 

There are plenty of ignorant people everywhere in the world and of every persuasion.

 

Regards,

 

ron

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do not insult Allah and His prophets until you have some knowledge and learnt about them first (from legitimate source). Is that fair? Sure it's fair and a reasonable thing to ask for especially from the one who calls himself 'Moral Salaam' ,do you any idea of the meaning of the words?

I don't get it. Who is more powerful, who can defend themselves more, you or Allah? Why can't Allah look after himself? Because there is no such thing as a god, and Allah is supposedly a god. You, on the other hand ARE real.

Too many people die and kill in the name of gods. Gods don't kill because they don't exist.

I have looked at more religion than you could possibly imagine. They are all frauds.

 

 

A valid point, in my humble opinion. But you are getting 'personal'.

 

Religions are almost never deliberate 'frauds', as you call them. Certainly thousands of years ago people were more honest and straightforward in their beliefs, right or wrong.

 

Ron

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"Religions are almost never deliberate 'frauds', as you call them. Certainly thousands of years ago people were more honest and straightforward in their beliefs, right or wrong."

 

Thousands of years ago people didnt know any better :sl:

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"Religions are almost never deliberate 'frauds', as you call them. Certainly thousands of years ago people were more honest and straightforward in their beliefs, right or wrong."

 

Thousands of years ago people didnt know any better :sl:

 

 

Actually, as far as I can see it was the more intelligent 'thinkers' of the age who , logically reasoned that if there is a creation then there must be a creator. All of the other moral and legal stuff simply flowed from ideas of right and wrong which would be derived from what was self-evidently good or bad for the community (a bit early to use the word 'society' I think).

 

regards,

 

ron

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