Jump to content
Islamic Forum
pashazada

Infinite Punishment For Finite Crimes

Recommended Posts

But you didn't address the "except". And by the way, the "except" means that the vrses you quoted are contradicting this verse.

 

The exception is for those among the dwellers of Hellfire who are believers but were not forgiven for their sins. Allah will punish the wrongdoers, except those whom He admits into Heaven, who will be anyone with true faith in their hearts. For them, they are punished for their wrongdoings, but their punishment is not permanent.

 

This explanation is at the end of the link I posted.

 

It has been said that the exception mentioned in this verse refers to the disobedient among the people of Tawhid. It is these whom Allah will bring out of the Fire by the intercession of the interceders. Those who will be allowed to intercede are the angels, the Prophets and the believers. They will intercede even on behalf of those who committed major sins. Then, the generous mercy of Allah will remove from the Fire those who have never done any good, except for saying La ilaha illallah one day of their life. This has been mentioned in numerous authentic reports from the Messenger of Allah , including narrations from Anas bin Malik, Jabir bin `Abdullah, Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri, Abu Hurayrah and other Companions. No one remains in the Fire after this final intercession, except those who will remain there forever without escape. This is the opinion held by many of the scholars, both past and present, concerning the explanation of this verse.

 

Salam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PropellerAds

Thanks brother . I don't think it's the length . It's because the author is a Quranist and it seems that this forum is run by sunnis who don't accept any other views except theirs .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:sl:

 

With all due respect, please do not copy and paste material that is quoted from unreliable sources. All Muslims should rely on the Qur'an, Sunnah, and the Salaf for understanding to Islam, not on new-age, modernist type Muslims who are not qualified to give tafsir of the Qur'an by rejecting the Sunnah of the prophet. IF does not allow sectarian opinions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This is the opinion held by many of the scholars, both past and present, concerning the explanation of this verse.

 

'Many', not even 'most'. Either way, it's a disputed point. Also, "as your Lord please" does not imply intercession, it implies a free choice by Allah.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
'Many', not even 'most'. Either way, it's a disputed point. Also, "as your Lord please" does not imply intercession, it implies a free choice by Allah.

 

"Many of the scholars" was written by Ibn Kathir, but it undoubtedly refers to the consensus among the scholars, as proven by Hadiths from prophet Muhammad and narrations in the works of previous scholars. The companions of the prophet believed this, the generation following them believed this, the ones after them believed this. The major scholars believed this. That Ibn Kathir wrote "many of the scholars" does not mean that it is not the majority. You are latching onto a word without even knowing the context within which it is used.

 

It is "disputed"? Sure, in the same way that some people dispute that prophet Muhammad was the last prophet, or that Allah exists above His throne. Or that prophet Isa died, or that prophet Musa spoke to God. There are deviants among the Muslims who go against the grain and interpret the Qur'an to their desires. Look up the handful of people who claimed to be prophets of God since prophet Muhammad's death. Just because something is disputed by some people does not make the whole issue unclear.

 

And lastly, you are not a mufassir of the Qur'an. You know nothing about what a verse "implies" or what it means. Do not take it upon yourself to translate the Qur'an; it is not a book of poetry that can be interpreted in the manner the reader perceives it.

 

Personal interpretations of the Qur'an are misleading for Muslims and non-Muslims alike and are against the forum rules. I would advice you to refrain from them.

 

Salam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dear Brother Word Vision,

 

Thank you for your kind word's and your attempt to help me, may Allah (swt) reward you for the good :sl:

 

While I agree that disbelief is a SERIOUS crime and one that is carried out either in ignorance and or pride the idea of infinite punishment for it sits heavily with me. Allah (swt) is beyond the need for us to believe in him so I can't fathom why he would punish his creation for ever for something that can neither hurt nor help him? He is also described as al-Rahman al-Rahim. One hadith even mention's that Allah divided His Mercy into seventy parts, and distributed one of those parts in the creation around us. Let us think of all the love in this world; be it between a mother and child, a husband and wife, a brother and sister, be it between animals and their young, be it between friends. All the love amongst these people and in this world comprises just one part out of seventy of Allah's Mercy. Now if my father was a disbeliever or murderer my love for him is that I would not want him to be punished forever. So how can Allah (swt) whose love and mercy is "100x" greater than mine seek to punish his stupid, weak, fallible insignificant creation with an eternity in hell?

 

:sl:

 

Brother,

 

You are quite right when you say that Allah has no need of our belief. Indeed, He has no need of anything whatsoever. But the fact that He has no need of our belief, does not mean He will not punish unbelief, or any other transgression for that matter. For example, He has no need of us to refrain from murder, but will punish the murderer none the less.

 

You are again right when you refer to Allah's infinite Mercy, Compassion and Love. The love you feel for Allah's creation, including the love you feel for your fellow humans, is a manifestation of this, as Allah gave you the ability to love. Allah's love is pure, divine love. The love we are able to feel and display can not approach the magnitude of Allah's love. But Allah is also the Most Just (Adl). His justice is infinite and based on perfect knowledge. Allah will manifest His infinite Justice, at the same time as His other attributes such as Mercy.

 

A being can not be considered a God, if He can not demonstrate perfect Justice. Allah is Justice! And He will manifest His perfect justice whenever required. You might disagree with Allah's justice, but you would be absolutely wrong. Allah is indeed Rahman and Rahim and He has stated that He may choose to forgive all sins, with the exception of Shirk. Unbelief is a type of Shirk. Allah has perfect knowledge, and He knows better than us that unbelief is the greatest of evils. It is perfect justice that the unbeliever should remain in Hell for eternity (for reasons I have outlined to you in earlier posts).

 

But as you say, Allah is also Rahman and Rahim. In His infinite Mercy, He has chosen to allow even the unbelievers to remain in existence in the afterlife. Yes, Allah brought us into existence when we were nothing. If He wanted to, He could annihilate us - remove us from existence. But He has promised that even the worst offender, the worst criminal, will remain in existence in the afterlife. But in keeping with Justice, their abode will be Jahannam. Again in keeping with Justice, Jahannam has infinite levels. The worst offenders will reside in the lower levels, the lesser offenders in the higher levels. So as you can see, Allah's Mercy does extend to even the unbelievers. He does not forsake them, so therefore you should not despair of them.

 

Brother Pashazada, your compassion for your fellow humans is commendable, may Allah reward you. But I can assure you, come judgment day, the unbelievers you despair for will themselves accept Hell. They will see Allah's manifestations without veil and will understand the gravity of their sins. They will accept their punishment. They will feel absolutely worthy of it - such will be their shame at having denied Allah's existence. Since they will accept their punishment thus, and since they will be thankful to at least continue to exist, you too should accept it. And you should praise Allah for the beauty of His Justice and Mercy.

 

Selam aleykum.

Edited by wordVision Student

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A being can not be considered a God, if He can not demonstrate perfect Justice. Allah is Justice! And He will manifest His perfect justice whenever required.

 

I see the attributes of infinite justice and infinite mercy as being mutually exclusive.

 

If justice means never deviating from the Law, and mercy means allowing lesser punishment than the Law requires, the two concepts cannot co-exist in an 'infinite' way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So if we lived an infinite life committing crimes, you would find that to be justice?

Even if we lived an infinite life, those who choose to be disbelievers would be diselievers for ever.

 

Finite crimes are not finite, one crime can be sufficient to be infinite to your heart, morals etc.. And one good deed can be sufficient for your infinite heart, morals...

 

P.S. I don't know your future.

Edited by Orthodox

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How can a God who describes him self as merciful and just condem human's to infinite hell for finite crimes?
We choose infinite Hell over this world.

 

My only answer is he is just and merciful only to those who believe and only upto a point but this would again contradict him as all merciful if it be limited to conditions

We don't believe that Allah is only mercy. We believe that He is also punishment due to His justice. You need to learn what All Merciful means.

 

What's merciful about creating a human being to suffer for eternity?
Allah created everything good. The jnn CHOSE to be evil. Those who choose to follow evil follow the one who started evil. The humans who suffer in eternity belong no where else save blazing fire. Or do you want good and evil combined?

 

especially if that poor human had a miserable life full of pain and suffering i.e suffered from chronic pain or some other such horrible condition only then to throw him into hell for temporal sin's no matter how bad that where committed within a finite period.

Keffar are clasified into different types. Those who never heard about Islam will be tested on the judgement day. And it is reported that for evey pain, be it a torn, we will be rewarded for it on the hereafter, it cleanses us from sins, and it strenghtens us in patience and or we learn patience with it.

Edited by Orthodox

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So if we lived an infinite life committing crimes, you would find that to be justice?

Even if we lived an infinite life, those who choose to be disbelievers would be diselievers for ever.

 

Sorry, is this a reply to my post immediately above yours? If so, I don't get it.

 

My point is that infinite justice and infinite mercy (I assume the "infinite' refers to the scale of these qualities, not just that they continue forever) cannot really co-exist, as justice and mercy are slightly opposing concepts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, my reply was not to your post, it was to the title.

 

Dear, what is the most merciful? What is the most just? What is mercy? What is justice of Allah?

 

That what you witness and that what will happen.

 

God is not only mercy and justice. He is 97 more names that He reveled. The rest He hid. As an Orthodox Muslim we take His names as they are, so I don't know what or how is Allah's mercy or justice. It is the most fair and wise. But I can't tell you how os Allah merciful and just except that what is in the scripture.

 

It seems that your definition of mercy is merciful and nothing else. And just, justice and no else. That is not the case. Allah is merciful, yes, but to whom deserves mercy. And that is how He is also just.

Edited by Orthodox

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, the above was a reply to Wattle.

 

And by the way, there is a difference between Allah willing mercy,justice, etc.... And Him being all Merciful, just, knowledgeable...

Edited by Orthodox

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It seems that your definition of mercy is merciful and nothing else. And just, justice and no else. That is not the case. Allah is merciful, yes, but to whom deserves mercy. And that is how He is also just.

 

It doesn't matter what other attributes a being has. My point is that if a being is infinitely merciful, that being cannot also enforce infinte justice. The point about mercy is that it goes AGAINST what someone "deserves" - "deserves" is a concept associated with justice, not mercy.

 

 

(By the way, I suspect that you mean "swells", not "smells" in your tag line.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(By the way, I suspect that you mean "swells", not "smells" in your tag line.)
I beg your pardon! I won't even dignify with that comment. I'm glad everyone can see your nastiness...jahil

 

The point about mercy is that it goes AGAINST what someone "deserves" - "deserves" is a concept associated with justice, not mercy.
If Allah destines a person to Hell because they chose it, destines them to Hell due to His justice, how is He being unjust by His mercy?

 

My point is that if a being is infinitely merciful, that being cannot also enforce infinte justice.
Why not? Because mercy and justice are two different attributes. He wills infinite mercy to something that deserves mercy, and He wills infinite punishment for him who deserves punishment. As simple as that.

 

"He will be satisfied with them, and they will be satisfied with Him."

 

If Allah is merciful, just, fair etc... how would He grant infinite happiness and mercy to those who aren't fair and just? How would He be satisfied with someone who isn't fair and obedient. Again, Allah is not just mercy. He has anger and is punishment. What is fairness and justice to Allah? Read the Qur'aan.

Edited by Orthodox

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I beg your pardon! I won't even dignify with that comment. I'm glad everyone can see your nastiness...jahil

 

Don't be paranoid. I pointed out what seems to be an unfortunate typo. Or perhaps a really bad translation - "smells" in English usually carries connotations of "smells bad".

 

If Allah destines a person to Hell because they chose it, destines them to Hell due to His justice, how is He being unjust by His mercy?

 

he isn't being merciful if he condemns someone to eternal hell. That's the point - you cannot be both perfectly just AND perfectly merciful.

 

Why not? Because mercy and justice are two different attributes. He wills infinite mercy to something that deserves mercy, and He wills infinite punishment for him who deserves punishment. As simple as that.

 

If he does not will mercy to just one human, he is not infinitely merciful. Simple.

 

 

If Allah is merciful, just, fair etc... how would He grant infinite happiness and mercy to those who aren't fair and just? How would He be satisfied with someone who isn't fair and obedient. Again, Allah is not just mercy. He has anger and is punishment. What is fairness and justice to Allah? Read the Qur'aan.

 

You seem to agree that infinite mercy is incompatible with infinite justice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
you cannot be both perfectly just AND perfectly merciful.
I and you can't.

 

he isn't being merciful if he condemns someone to eternal hell
Not because He isn't merciful, but because He is fair.

 

If he does not will mercy to just one human, he is not infinitely merciful. Simple.
Ihave no clue what is your point. I said it before. Allah is punishment and not only mercy. He is merciful, that he isn't satisfied with with injustice of humans,some, he punish them.

 

You seem to agree that infinite mercy is incompatible with infinite justice.
I agree that Allah is not only mercy. I believe in all His attributes and we fear Him. Your good deeds, you are rewarded for them on this life while our good deeds seek Allah's pleasure. Allah won't grant mercy to injustice, we don't just repent. There are conditions to repentance. And He won't punish justice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But you're ignoring that the attribute is "Most merciful". If I would let someone out of Hell but Allah would not, then Allah is less merciful than me, thus not "Most merciful".

 

All I am pointing out is that there is a conflict beteen the concepts "justice" and "mercy". You can be either prefectly just or perfectly merciful but you cannot be both.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing you should never do is admit to a Muslim that you compare your self to Allah. When you do that, you are the lowest, cheapest thing in our eyes.

 

My dear, your destination is not determined based on Allah's attributes, you choose it with your deeds. Why do you have free will? Shirk, what non-Muslims commit, is the biggest sin. It is your deeds, not Allah's deeds.

 

Allah has 99 beautiful perfect names and more. You're comparing perfect attributes to creation. You're comparing the mercy of creation to His. And compare the anger and punishment of creation to His "Severe in punishment." We take His attributes as they are,"There is none like unto Him", you're interpreting them.

 

Imagine, take brutal deeds of all the creation, since the beginning to end, and compare it to Allah's. Allah's is still more severe, and stricter.

 

Even though Allah's mercy and justice would be as ours,as you claim, then bring forthh anything from Allah stating that He does mercy and punishment at the same time? This whole time you were implying that Allah grants paradise becasue of His mercy. We don't deserve paradise, but if a person has enough deeds to qualify for paradise, then the paradise is his. If a person's deeds qualify Hell, then Allah is severe in punishment. Perfect sense.

 

Allah's justice, GIVES and SHOWS Mercy TO THOSE WHO DESERVE IT, Paradise = To those who earn it.

Allah's justice, GIVES and SHOWS Punishment TO THOSE WHO DESERVE IT ,Hell = To those who earned it.

 

Allah doesn't add deeds because of His mercy so that a person enters paradise. The person already qualifies.That is Him being more lenient. His mercy is everything in paradise.

Even if Allah was more mercy than punishment to some, then that person deserves it (justice).Actually, we already get rewarded a lot for minor deeds due to His mercy, so you really must deserve Hell. Shirk...

 

Your attribute seems to be "idiot" for the rest of your life.

Edited by Orthodox

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I meant that Allah doesn't add deeds on judgement day to determineHell or Paradise for us. On this world, we do get rewarded a lot for minor things, so, if you don't have enough good deeds, yo must really deserve Hell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Allah does have MORE mercy then harshness. Because Justice is to be more merciful or appropriate since Allah is severe in punishment. When a being is MORE merciful to His creation, it doesn't mean that He is unjust .Justice is to be generous and something positive and perfect must be justice. Unjust is to punish someone more then they deserve, and that is not the case since to Allah, as said by Him, one small thing we consider minute, it is great. And He didn't create an atom in vain.

 

There is no such a thing that to everything there is "equal." Some people deserve more then others. And some almost deserve paradise so there is nothing unjust about granting them lowest level of paradise over eternal Hell.

I am not knowledgeable and I wish for someone to correct me please.

 

IT IS TRUE, BASED ON THE TEXT, THAT Allah IS MORE MERCY. NOW GO FLY A KITE.

Edited by Orthodox

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salam,

 

How can God hold all Non Muslims responsible for rejecting his messages and denying him when;

 

1. Most Muslims do not follow the correct teaching of Islam and invovled in curruption, mischeif and wrong doings same like others

2. When most of the Non Muslims are not even aware the true teaching of Islam

3. When Muslims have miserably failed to give Dahwa to Non Muslims to introduce Islam to others

4. Muslims themselves are projecting Islam wrongly and creating a bad impression about Islam in the minds of others

 

It seems some members here trying to impose infinte punishment for all the no believers. Indirectly they are saying all those who are 'Muslims' are indefintely in heaven and every others (no matter what the circumstances) indefintely in heaven. It is arrogance. There are thousands of non Muslims who are far far far better than many Muslims in terms of charity, doing good work, leading a good life in spite of the fact that they do not belive in Allah due to reasons like, they had no oppurtunity in their life to learn about Islam and many such issues. I am here not talking about non muslims who are arrogant and who willfullly reject Allah and make effort to harm Muslims and Islam. Do the home work in in what context Allah uses the term Kafir.

 

wasslam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You seem to assume that the attribute "just" is more important than the attribute "Most merciful". Why? You assume that Allah's mercy is limited (ie it does not apply to everone or in every circumstance) but his justice is not. Why?

 

Neither of these would matter were it not that AFAIK there is no order of importance of the Attributes of Allah, nor is there any limitation on Allah. If Allah is "Most merciful', then his mercy cannot be limited. Yet he canot be perfectly just if his mercy is unlimited. (Unlimite mercy would mean that no-one went to hell.)

 

There is a contradiction here which you simply fail to address.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really don't have time for your stupidity and twisting of words. When I tell you that Allah doesn't show mercy to one that doesn't( qualify for it, don't give me your interpretation of Allah being limitless.

 

Justice is Hell here. How is it more important to grant someone Hell when they almost qualify for mercy?

 

Is Allahks mercy limited? To someone who doesn't qualify for it , due to their scale of bad deeds, it is Allah's justice and disappointment overtaking His mercy. For that reason Allah has restricted His mercy. How can Allah's mercy not be restricted when He is the Most SEVERE in punishment?

 

His mercy is restricted for those who don't qualify for it.

 

Where do you get that no one will go to Hell? !!!!

 

What contradiction is there to the fact that Allah is more mercy to a person who qualifies for it, that is justice.

 

Honestly, you have no idea what you are talking about! I tell you Allah is more mercy, you tell me His mercy is not limited. His mercy is restricted.

 

Again, what contradiction is there to Allah being more merciful to someone that qualifies for it over someone who doesn't qualify for mercy at all?

 

 

Every person will be granted either paradise or Hell according to their deeds. Allah being more merciful, the Muslims who will have to burn in Hell so Hell clensess them from sins, they will be given paradise after they have payed for their sins.

Edited by Orthodox

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can' beilive I'm discussing this! I told you that I posses no knowledge about this.

 

I made some mistakes above, people beware and don't take your deen from me.

 

Allah is merciful, if I have nterpreted His mercy, disregard please!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Is al-‘Adl (Justice) one of the names of Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted?.

 

 

Praise be to Allaah.

 

Al-‘Adl (justice) is not narrated as one of the names of Allaah in the Qur’aan or in any saheeh hadeeth. It was narrated in a famous hadeeth listing the names of Allaah, which was narrated by al-Tirmidhi and others. The scholars discussed this hadeeth and regarded it as weak, and said that this list cannot be attributed to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar al-‘Asqallaani (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in Fath al-Baari (11/217): Ibn al-‘Arabi said: It may be that these names are added to complete the list mentioned in the hadeeth attributed to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and it may be that it is a composition of some reporters, which seems more likely to me.

 

Al-San’aani said in Subul al-Salaam (4/108): The scholars are agreed that the list of names of Allaah mentioned in the hadeeth was drawn up by some of the reporters.

 

But the word al-‘adl (justice) is mentioned in the Qur’aan as a description of the words of Allaah, such as in the verse (interpretation of the meaning): “And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice†[al-An’aam 6:115].

 

Therefore the scholars differed as to whether al-‘Adl is one of the names of Allaah, may He be exalted, and a number of them did count it as one of His names, as Shaykh ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Sa’di did at the end of his Tafseer where he said, when listing the names of Allaah and discussing their meanings: al-Hakam al-‘Adl Who judges between His slaves in this world and in the Hereafter by His justice and fairness. End quote.

 

Al-Bayhaqi said in al-Asma’ wa’l-Sifaat (1/198): … al-‘Adl, which appears in the report of al-Asaami mentioned above. End quote.

 

This was the view of a number of scholars, including al-Khattaabi, Ibn Mandah and others.

 

Another group were of the view that it is not one of the names of Allaah, for the reason we have mentioned, which is that it is not listed as a name of Allaah in any saheeh text. Among these scholars is Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him), when he listed ninety-nine names of Allaah from the Qur’aan and Sunnah in his book al-Qawaa’id al-Muthla, but he did not mention the name al-‘Adl among them. The same was done by al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar al-‘Asqallaani and others.

 

But it is proven that Allaah has the attribute of being just, and He is just in all that He does, as it is narrated in al-Bukhaari (3150) and Muslim (1062) from ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood about the man who objected to the Prophet’s division of the booty, and he (the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)) said: “Who will be just if Allaah and His Messenger are not just?â€

 

Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

 

Justice is one of His attributes, so He is just in what He says and what He does and what He rules.

 

A similar report was narrated from Mu’aadh (may Allaah be pleased with him), that he did not sit in any gathering of dhikr but he would say: “Allaah is Just and Fair, and those who have doubt are doomed.†Narrated by Abu Dawood (4611). It is mawqoof and was classed as saheeh by al-Albaani.

 

It says in ‘Awn al-Ma’bood: i.e., just judge.

 

And Allaah knows best.

 

 

Islam Q&A

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×