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Final Fate Of Jesus

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Ma'ariful Qur'an (Mufti Shafi Usmani) Vol - 8

Surah As-Saff - 61 : Verses 10 - 14

 

Three Groups of Christians

 

(So, a group from the children of israel believed, and another group disbelieved. Then We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became victorious...61:14)

 

Baghawi interprets this verse in the light of a narration of Sayyidna 'Abdullah Ibn 'Abbas Radhi-Allahu Anh:

 

Allah be pleased with him that when Prophet 'Isa (A.S) was raised to the heaven, his followers disagreed and became three groups. A group claimed that He was Himself God who went back to the heaven. The second group claimed that He Himself was not God, but God's son. God lifted him up and salvaged him from the enemies and granted him superiority. The third group proclaimed the truth and said that he was neither god nor the son of god, but he was Allah's servant and His Messenger. Allah took him away to the heaven to protect him from the enemies, and to raise his status. These people were the true believers. Different sectors of the general public attached themselves to each one of these groups. The groups clashed with one another. The two of the non-believing groups overpowered the third group, which was a group of true believers. Eventually, Allah raised the Final Messenger of Allah Sallallahu 'Alayhi Wasallam: Peace be upon him who supported the group of the true believers. This group thus dominated the others because of their correct belief and its solid proofs confirmed by the Qur'an. [Mazhari].

 

In this interpretation, the phrase al-ladhina aamanu "those who believed [14]" would refer to the believers of the Ummah of the Prophet 'Isa (A.S) who would triumph against the unbelievers with the help and support of the Final Messenger Sallallahu 'Alayhi Wasallam: Peace be upon him. [Mazhari].

 

*******

 

Reference to the “death†and “resurrection†of Jesus (19:33) must be understood in the light of (4:157). It refers to death after the second coming and resurrection on the Day of Judgment. Similar terms used to refer to John the Baptist (19:15). Many Ahadith confirm that.

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A Christian apologist asks following questions:

 

The Mosaic Code in the Torah demanded atonement for sin by substitutionary DEATH. That is, a priesthood overseeing an animal sacrifice system performed in the Tabernacle (read Exodus chapter 25 through Leviticus chapter 10 and chapters 21-22, and Numbers chapters 15, 18, & 28-29). The Koran changed this to atonement by good works and religious devotional observance (i.e., the Pillars of Islam) while utterly ignoring the historical reality of Mosaic Judaism.

 

Why Qur'an did not give a best and clearest history about the fate of Jesus?

 

There is little or nothing in Qur'an about history and explanation of the fate of Jesus, and the work of Paul in forming Christianity and the Bible. Why?

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I dont really understand the question. At any rate why would the Quran talk about the Paul when he was responsible for changing the message of Isa (upon him be peace) and basically inventing Christianity. The texts of Islam tell us about the Isa (upon him be peace) and his people. They also tell us about his (as) fate but its of little importance to us now as he is not yet dead.

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He further said:

 

"The Mosaic code in the Torah established a priesthood overseeing an animal sacrifice system to provide a blood atonement for human sins, and a moral/legal system to minimize sin and establish justice.

 

The distinctive claims of Apostles Creed Christianity are that the death of animals cannot atone for human sins, therefore God enfleshed Himself into this world through His virgin born son Jesus who offered himself on the cross as the final blood sacrifice on behalf of mankind; was resurrected from death in glorified form; and ascended to the right hand of God the Father so that all who believe in Him will have eternal life in the perfected New Heaven and New Earth.

 

The Christian New Testament at least attempts to explain the shift from the Laws of Moses to their purported fulfillment in the work of Jesus on the Cross.

 

The Koran makes no attempt at all to explain the change from atonement by DEATH to atonement by good works. In fact, the Koran doesn’t even mention Mosaic Judaism!"

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"The Mosaic code in the Torah established a priesthood overseeing an animal sacrifice system to provide a blood atonement for human sins, and a moral/legal system to minimize sin and establish justice.
Blah, blah...

Where is the Torah?

 

The Koran makes no attempt at all to explain the change from atonement by DEATH to atonement by good works. In fact, the Koran doesn’t even mention Mosaic Judaism!"

The Qur'aan calls to tawheed, meaning to ask for forgivness to Allah, seek help from Allah, sacrifice for the sake of Allah.

 

 

I don't know what I am talking about, he doesn't seem to either. Now tell him to be clear because this deserves nothing but a slap in the face.

 

change from atonement by DEATH to atonement by good works.
Is this buddhism? If this has to do anything for expiation for a wrong doing, it makes no sense, to me.

 

Islam is a complete religion with the Qur'aan and the Sunna. There needs to be no dictation for "atonement by death to atonement by good works."

 

You can join Islamic life forum. A forum dedicated only for students who give daw'ah. Brothers and sisters will help there, InshAllah.

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetislamic-life(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/forums/"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetislamic-life(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/forums/[/url]

Edited by Orthodox

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The Koran changed this to atonement by good works and religious devotional observance (i.e., the Pillars of Islam) while utterly ignoring the historical reality of Mosaic Judaism.

 

Why Qur'an did not give a best and clearest history about the fate of Jesus?

 

There is little or nothing in Qur'an about history and explanation of the fate of Jesus, and the work of Paul in forming Christianity and the Bible. Why?

Ohh, I see.

 

Just get to the bottom and tell him that the Qur'aan doesn't contradict and the Bible does. Just because the Bible says something cradictory to the Qur'aan, doesn't mean the Qur'an is incorrect, or that the Qur'aan picks and chooses from the Bible!

 

 

 

1. The Qur'aan is from Allah, the Bible is from men.

 

2. Allah abrogates the laws as He reveals the scriptures to suit the time and location of the period. I am not sure of this one, but I think you know this better than I.

 

3. How can he claim that is what the original Torah said? I know they throw at you a bunch of weird, unknown "facts."

 

4. During the time of Muhammad,saws, the Bible wan't translated. Even if it was, he,saw, was illiterate. If you want more information on this, please ask.

 

Personally, Christians can confuse people if you don't know the basics and valid facts. I assume you do, but I couldn't stand this unclear, full of adjectives, confusing, assumptions without clear evidence. This is the case, from my experience, with all deviants. They make themselves seem as if they knew what they're talking about by using advanced speech.They think flipped understanding of the texts are logical. Anyone witnessing the creation of Allah can easily see the truth, evidently.

 

I never got to read Ibn Taymeyya's work against them. It's probably a slap n the face, interested?

Edited by Orthodox

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Orthodox,

 

I sent him following reply:

 

 

1. Christian Gospels in New Testament are not reliable. Proofs can be seen in the book I sent. (Izhar al-Haq, Truth Revealed, By Rahmatullah Kairanvi [1864])

 

2. Whole Old & New Testament not revealed by God. Humans wrote books by different sources without any measure of tradition’s reliability checking.

 

3. When these so-called Gospels not revealed by God, how can you trust them without solid proofs? These are written by unknown men. Who were they?

 

What kind of character they possess? Which source they wrote the Gospels? We don’t know.

 

They just wrote the biographies and later their works became GOD’S WORD.

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Wednesday, May 12, 2010

 

Fatwa From Jamiatul Ulama-Natal

 

Respected Brother/Sister in Islam

 

Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh

 

The Qur’an mentions Taubah as the atonement for sins in many places and so does the Hadith. The Qur’an also makes mention of the previous method of Taubah that was imposed on the jews. Refer to verse 54 of Surah al-Baqarah.

 

And Allah Knows Best.

 

Wassalaam.

 

 

Following is the reply of that Christian apologist on the Fatwa:

 

The problem here is that Muslim scholars are experts in Qur'an but know almost nothing about Jewish Torah. They simply don't know how much Torah say about priesthood and blood atonement for sins of the people (32 full chapters in Torah). They don't know how big and important this was for Jews from time of Moses to time Temple destroyed by pagan Romans---over a thousand years! They don't understand how important blood atonement is for Christianity. Christianity cannot make any sense at all without blood atonement of sin.

 

So Muslim scholars think that blood atonement of sin is just repentence from doing sin. But atonement and repentence are two very different things. Atonement covers sin with the blood of an acceptable death sacrifice so that when God looks at the sin God sees only the blood of the acceptable substitute. This was commanded by God through the prophet Moses, and this command was NOT abrogated or cancelled by Qur'an---Qur'an does not mention blood atonement at all, so it is still needed by Muslims just as much as by Jews.

 

Repentence is the decision by sinner human to turn away from wrongdoing and obey commands and will of God. Repentence is very good, but it does not cover sin as atonement. Best repentence in world will not cover (atone) for even one small sin. Only blood of acceptable substitute sacrifice can atone for sin. But Qur'an not mention this at all.

 

You must go online to web Bible and read the chapters in Torah I listed below (Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers). See for yourself how much there is, how much detail there is, and how important it is. Only then can you understand how shocked I am that Qur'an does not mention this at all. Really, this is terrible flaw in Qur'an. Even if I had no other objection to Qur'an but this, I would have to reject Qur'an as false prophecy. Blood atonement is that important.

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Blue Water please do not reject Qur'an, take a little think about it. Ok Qur'an does not mention blood atonement. That means we are not doing this atonement. Allah(SWT) did not order us. Qur'an is final guidance for whole mankind so we need to follow what says in it.

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Asssalamu Alaykum

 

Brother, I'm confused. The fatwa says that the Qur'aan mentions it, the guy insists that it didn't.

 

Plus,

Atonement covers sin with the blood of an acceptable death sacrifice so that when God looks at the sin God sees only the blood of the acceptable substitute.

 

is he saying that God has to see the sin covered in blood of a sacrificed thing? Am I being stupid or what is it?

 

This was commanded by God through the prophet Moses, and this command was NOT abrogated or cancelled by Qur'an---Qur'an does not mention blood atonement at all, so it is still needed by Muslims just as much as by Jews.
Oh, was it abrogated in the Gospel? Was it mentioned in the Gospel?
Christianity cannot make any sense at all without blood atonement of sin.
That's why he makes it seem so important. One is either forgiven, punished , or his/her sinns are expiated: No tiredness, exhaustion, worry, grief, distress or harm befalls a believer in this world, not even a thorn that pricks him, but Allaah expiates some of his sins thereby.†(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5210; Muslim, 4670).

 

What has sacrifice of an animal have to do with any of this?

 

Brother, Allah has not created the heavens and the earth in vain. Every blessing you obtain you will be questioned for. Every word you say is recorded. Quit this vain talk with that person. Just focus on performing good deeds, observing yourself from Haram and strengthing your relationship with Allah and that is it. The rest is vain. One of the deciption of the Shaytan is to make one focus on a good act in order to keep him away from another better good deed. These guys don't know their purpose in life. Their talk is vain and ignorance, conjecture.

Edited by Orthodox

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Following is my final reply to that Christian apologist. Also, under my points in bold, he commented. But I feel that he had no answer to my points (Orthodox, I also included your comment, please don't mind). He made absurd questions without having any proofs.

 

(1) The Bible's own theologians and historians tell us that most of the Bible's so-called books and gospels were actually written by "mysterious people." This is according to the Bible's own theologians and historians themselves. This is also aside from the fact that the Bible(s) contains overwhelming amount of textual and historical contradictions and errors.

 

Hundreds of churches during the early Christians' days were formed and each had their own unique scriptures. Many were false scriptures and some were the Originals. But one thing for certain, today's New Testaments' "books" and "gospels" are nothing but third-party rewrites. They weren't even written by Jesus nor by any of his disciples.

 

1. The only books of Bible I talk about are Torah and Gospel that Qur'an itself mentions and confirms. If Torah is corrupted, then Qur'an should give full corrections or clear and total condemnation. Same for Injil revealed by Jesus. If Bible Gospels corrupt or fakes, then Qur'an needs to give full and correct Gospel. Qur'an give almost nothing. Original Islam Gospel of Jesus cannot be told from what is in Qur'an. Can Muslim scholars produce copies of original Torah and Gospel that can be dated before birth of Muhammad? I don't think so. I believe God can protect Torah and Gospel so that they are good enough to tell us the truth, even with problems of defects and minor contradictions.

 

(2) Allah abrogates the laws as He reveals the scriptures to suit the time and location of the period.

 

2. My objection to Qur'an is that it does not actually abrogate the important parts of Jewish Torah. The Qur'an ignores what is in Torah and then makes new religion of Islam in contradiction. Remember, even if Bible Torah is fake it was fully formed by time of Muhammad and Qur'an. Allah is all-knowing and all-seeing. When Qur'an makes command that contradicts Torah, then Qur'an needs to say that old law was either a fake or that the old law was being changed on purpose. To simply make new law without clearly canceling or condemning old law is contradiction.

 

(3) The similarity that Allah Almighty talked about and the Religion of Abraham is the concentration on Belief of the Absolute Oneness of GOD Almighty, and associating no partners (idols or humans) with Him: (Read Noble Qur'an 4:125, 2:135, 3:67, 3:64)

 

3. Doctrine of Trinity is very difficult. Christian are not saying that there are three gods who came together and formed a partnership, or any combination of three god(s), angels, or men. God is ONE and only ONE, but reveals himself to mankind in three very different ways. This is like a single bolt of lightning coming down from the sky that makes three forks before hitting the ground. The three forks are not different lightning bolts---they are all part of the ONE bolt of lightning. So it is with God. It is the ONE God who reveals himself as the Father, the same ONE God who reveals himself as the invisible Holy Spirit, and the same ONE God who physically came into this world through the virgin birth of Jesus to make blood atonement for sins of mankind. The Trinity is not three who become one, but the One true God who reveals himself in three very different ways.

 

(4) You just pick the words “Best histories and clear discourse†from the Qur’an without reading it in full context that what they are meant to tell? Qur’an mentioned only those events, which are connected to GUIDANCE of mankind.

 

4. I am not abusing the Qur'an when I take Allah at his word that Qur'an would give best histories. I made very clear in my article that "best histories" should be of important and relevant subjects and that "clear discourse" should be of things Qur'an itself talk about. There is nothing tricky or deceitful about this. I am being very reasonable. If history of Moses and Jesus is corrupted or missing then Qur'an should give best histories. If Torah and Gospel corrupted or wrong, then full discourse and complete disquisition without obliquity is promised by Allah himself. All of this is very simple and easy. I make no abuse.

 

(5) How can you claim that what the original Torah said? You have no proofs.

 

5. What I say is that Bible Torah can be proved to be same as Torah in time of Muhammad. There is no other Torah! Qur'an many times confirms Torah. If Bible Torah corrupt then Qur'an must make corrections---but it doesn't. That's the problem.

 

(6) Christians can confuse people if you don't know the basics and valid facts. I couldn't stand this unclear, full of adjectives, confusing, assumptions without clear evidence. Christians today do all kinds of sins and use the man-made lie and excuse about Jesus died for their sins. These are all lies and they are all man-made.

 

6. I welcome clear discourse. Show clear discourse on original uncorrupted Torah. Show clear discourse on original uncorrupted Injil Gospel. Show clear discourse on ministry and final fate of Jesus so everyone can know full truth without obliquity. Show manuscripts of original Torah and original Injil Gospel that can be dated before birth of Muhammad. This would end debate and force Jews and Christians to abandon false religions and bow in Islam to Allah. This is all very simple. It should be easy.

 

What you say at the end if very true. The false idea that people are free to sin because Jesus paid for sins is a very old heresy. Jesus pay for sins to set us free from sin so that we can obey God and be righteous, not full of sin and rebellion.

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1. The only books of Bible I talk about are Torah and Gospel that Qur'an itself mentions and confirms. If Torah is corrupted, then Qur'an should give full corrections or clear and total condemnation. Same for Injil revealed by Jesus. If Bible Gospels corrupt or fakes, then Qur'an needs to give full and correct Gospel. Qur'an give almost nothing. Original Islam Gospel of Jesus cannot be told from what is in Qur'an. Can Muslim scholars produce copies of original Torah and Gospel that can be dated before birth of Muhammad? I don't think so. I believe God can protect Torah and Gospel so that they are good enough to tell us the truth, even with problems of defects and minor contradictions.

 

:sl:

 

The Qur'an doesn't need to give a full correction of everything that exists in the Gospels. But it does correct a lot of things like:

 

1) It totally negates the idea that the Messiah is God

 

2) It negates the idea that God is part of a Trinity

 

3) It negates the idea that God gives birth

 

4) It negates the idea God has taken somebody as a Son

 

5) It negates the Lordship of Jesus(pbuh)

 

6) It negates the idea that Jesus(pbuh) was crucified and killed

 

7) It says that monasticism is something that the Christians invented themselves and it didn't come from God

 

The Qur'an will not give a full correction of everything that the Chrisitans innovated. It isn't practical.

 

Furthermore the Qur'an corrects some narratives that are in the Bible:

 

1) The narrative concerning Joseph(pbuh) and the Al-Aziz's wife is different in the Qur'an and in the Torah. If you want to know how they differ, read the two versions.

 

2) It corrects the narrative of Moses(pbuh). In the Torah, the who Pharaoh was in power when Moses(pbuh) was a baby and when he killed an Egyptians dies while Moses(pbuh) is in Midian. In the Qur'an, the Pharaoh doesn't die while Moses(pbuh) is in Midian.

 

3) It corrects the narrative of Moses(pbuh) and the sorcerers of Pharaoh. In the Bible, the sorcerers match every miracle that Moses(pbuh) does. In the Qur'an, they do not match his miracles. In the Qur'an, they don't turn their staffs and ropes into real living snakes like Moses(pbuh) - their rods and ropes only appear to move as if they were snakes, they don't become real snakes. In the Qur'an, the sorcerers accept Moses(pbuh) while in the Torah they reject him and keep matching his miracles.

 

4) The Qur'an negates the story of Aaron(pbuh) building the golden calf

 

5) The Qur'an negates the idea that Jews and Christians are His children

 

6) The absurd idea that Solomon(pbuh) was a disbeliever

 

There are more things that negated by the Qur'an, these are just from the top of my head.

 

5. What I say is that Bible Torah can be proved to be same as Torah in time of Muhammad. There is no other Torah! Qur'an many times confirms Torah. If Bible Torah corrupt then Qur'an must make corrections---but it doesn't. That's the problem.

 

I hope you realise by now that this is totally false.

 

As for the blood atonement, you have to realise that this person is obviously going to play the Torah as long it suits him.

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetmessiahtruth(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/blood.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetmessiahtruth(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/blood.html[/url]

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