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SuperZeZ

I Fear My View Of Islam Is Horribly Skewed

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Hello, everyone. I have a request of sorts.

 

See, I'm an atheist, but I like to be accepting and tolerant of all religions. That's why I'm here. See, I've started seriously studying Islam, and some of the things I've read concern me. I suspect what I've read about Islam isn't at all true, and that's what I'm hoping somebody can demonstrate to me, if it's not too much to ask.

 

Basically, I read somewhere that Muslims think that the Koran is infallible and completely true. If that's the case, I was made aware of a few lines in the Koran that seem confrontational and hurtful to me and my fellow Atheists. (note: some of the verse numbers might be off by one or so, but I've checked, and the verses are indeed there)

 

 

“It is the same whether or not you forewarn the unbelievers; they will have no faith.†(Chapter 2, verse 6)

 

“God will mock them and keep them long in sin, blundering blindly along.†(Chapter 2, verse 15.)

 

“The unbelievers are like beasts, which, call to them as one may, can hear nothing but a shout and a cry. Deaf, dumb and blind, they understand nothing.†(Chapter 2, verse 172)

 

“Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage.†(Chapter 2, verse 190.)

 

“Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is evident from what they utter with their mouths, but greater is the hatred which their breasts conceal.†(Chapter 3, verse 118)

 

“Let not the unbelievers think that we prolong their days for their own good. We give them respite only so that they may commit more grievous sins. Shameful punishment awaits them.†(Chapter 3, verse 178)

 

I'm wondering if anyone could assure me that Muslims in general reject these lines from the Koran. I would greatly appreciate the effect that would have on my peace of mind.

 

Thanks for your time,

 

SuperZeZ.

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PropellerAds

hello,

 

“It is the same whether or not you forewarn the unbelievers; they will have no faith.†(Chapter 2, verse 6)

 

i'm not sure what you found hurtful or confrontational about this verse. could you explain? the verse is saying that some unbelievers will never believe, regardless of how convincing your argument is.

 

“God will mock them and keep them long in sin, blundering blindly along.†(Chapter 2, verse 15.)

to understand this verse, you need to read the verse that comes just before it:

 

And when they fall in with those who believe, they say: We believe; but when they go apart to their devils they declare: Lo! we are with you; verily we did but mock.

 

Allah (Himself) doth mock them, leaving them to wander blindly on in their contumacy.

 

so the unbelievers in this verse were those who were mocking the muslims, behind their backs. Allah thus punished them for this mockery by leaving them in darkness.

 

“The unbelievers are like beasts, which, call to them as one may, can hear nothing but a shout and a cry. Deaf, dumb and blind, they understand nothing.†(Chapter 2, verse 172)

 

it's actually verse 171. but this is not a good translation.

 

a better one is:

 

The likeness of those who disbelieve (in relation to the messenger) is as the likeness of one who calleth unto that which heareth naught except a shout and cry. Deaf, dumb, blind, therefore they have no sense.

 

in the arabic, there is no reference to 'beasts'.

 

these verses regarding disbelievers who will never believe are not referring to all non-muslims. of course, we see non-muslims embrace Islam every single day, so clearly this verse was not referring to them. the disbelievers in these types of verses are those who have absolutely no interest in the truth, and are arrogant.

 

“Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage.†(Chapter 2, verse 190.)

 

this is verse 191. here is a better translation:

 

And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-Al-Haram (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

 

as you can see, this verse is talking about a very specific battle, and is not a general religious instruction. the muslims were banished from mecca, simply because of their religion. this verse is instructing the muslims to fight fierce against the enemy.

 

you might find this disturbing, but Islam is not a passive religion. war was prescribed to fight injustice, and this verse was an instruction against a very unjust people.

 

“Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is evident from what they utter with their mouths, but greater is the hatred which their breasts conceal.†(Chapter 3, verse 118)

the word for 'friends' here in arabic is "bitaanah" which has several meanings such as intimate, advisor, helper, counsel etc. so the context of this verse would be a friend as helper, or advisor. the qur'an is instructing the muslims to not take the pagans or hypocrites as helpers or guardians, because they had hatred for the muslims.

 

many commentators also noted that this verse is probably more relevant for state affairs, and not really for interpersonal behaviour. meaning the 'bitaanah' is this verse is referring to state advisors, who could possibly sell state secrets to enemy nations etc. the verse is not an instruction to the normal muslim to never have non-muslim friends or take advice from non-muslims ever.

 

“Let not the unbelievers think that we prolong their days for their own good. We give them respite only so that they may commit more grievous sins. Shameful punishment awaits them.†(Chapter 3, verse 178)

 

this is a warning to the unbelievers that each passing day that they reject their Lord is another grievous sin. i'm not sure what you found hurtful about this verse?

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what i found hurtful about the last verse was that to me it translated as: "We're intentionally letting you sin more so you can suffer even more in hell."

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I'm sorry for the double post, but I realize just now that I completely forgot one of the verses I took issue with:

 

“Some of them listen to you, but we have cast veils over their hearts, and made them hard of hearing, lest they understand your words. They will believe in none of our signs, even if they see them one and all. When they come to argue with you, the unbelievers say ‘this is nothing but old, fictitious tales.’ They forbid it and depart from it. They ruin none but themselves, though they do not perceive it. If you could see them when they are set before the fire, they will say: ‘would that we could return, then we would not deny the revelations of our lord, and would be true believers.’ But if they were sent back, they would return to that which they have been forbidden; They are liars all.†(chapter 6, verses 24-28)

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Hi SuperZez,

 

Those verses are not only directed at those who do not believe in Allah. They are also a severe warning for us Muslims. I have seen many a pious Muslim break down in tears when reading descriptions of the punishments of Hellfire, and the trials of the grave. Because even though we're Muslims at this moment, our fates are uncertain. We can never take anything for granted, because tomorrow, we could just as easily be among those that Allah admonishes.

 

what i found hurtful about the last verse was that to me it translated as: "We're intentionally letting you sin more so you can suffer even more in hell."

 

During prophet Muhammad's time, the non-Muslims used to ask the prophet to hasten the Day of Judgment, to bring the punishment on them. They did so out of mockery. For those who disbelieve, Hellfire is the punishment ultimately. But Allah gives them time to enjoy this life, so that their grief will be doubled when they lose their worldly possessions.

 

The verse does not say that the punishment in Hellfire will be increased. It only says that their sins will increase, and that Hellfire awaits them. This is true regardless of whether the punishment happens quickly or not.

 

I'm sorry for the double post, but I realize just now that I completely forgot one of the verses I took issue with:

 

“Some of them listen to you, but we have cast veils over their hearts, and made them hard of hearing, lest they understand your words. They will believe in none of our signs, even if they see them one and all. When they come to argue with you, the unbelievers say ‘this is nothing but old, fictitious tales.’ They forbid it and depart from it. They ruin none but themselves, though they do not perceive it. If you could see them when they are set before the fire, they will say: ‘would that we could return, then we would not deny the revelations of our lord, and would be true believers.’ But if they were sent back, they would return to that which they have been forbidden; They are liars all.†(chapter 6, verses 24-28)

 

Another verse says:

 

Had Allah known of any good in them, He would indeed have made them listen. [8:23]

 

Allah does not harden a person's heart until they have disbelieved and denied the message of Islam. These people in this verse were the Pagans of Arabia, who were completely unwilling to accept Islam. Prophet Muhammad was severely disappointed every time someone rejected Islam, and Allah said in the Qur'an:

 

And let not those grieve you who rush with haste to disbelieve; verily, not the least harm will they do to Allah. It is Allah's will to give them no portion in the Hereafter. For them there is a great torment [3:176]

 

Salam.

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Another verse says:

 

Had Allah known of any good in them, He would indeed have made them listen. [8:23]

 

Salam.

 

That isn't very encouraging. That seems to encourage the opinion that if somebody rejects Islam, it means they're irredeemably evil. But I suppose I should ask another way:

 

Suppose the Koran DID, hypothetically, contain verses that had the very hateful impressions that I suspected them to have. Would you reject those verses?

 

My primary worries with Islam revolve around the fact that it places far higher priority on worship than other religions. Of the five pillars of Islam, only one, the giving of alms, has any actual secular merit. This is quite jarring to an atheist like myself. The impression I have, which I deeply hope is incorrect, is that Muslims teach that prayer and obedience to god come first, and acts of goodwill come second.

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That isn't very encouraging. That seems to encourage the opinion that if somebody rejects Islam, it means they're irredeemably evil. But I suppose I should ask another way:

 

If they're irredeemably evil, wouldn't the Omniscient Creator know this? If Allah thought they were deserving of guidance, He would guide them. A person becomes deserving by opening their hearts to Islam, by allowing it to affect them.

 

"Evil" is subjective. Islam teaches that evil is not only the evil that man does to others, but the evils he does to himself. Including the wrong that he does to himself by denying Islam.

 

Suppose the Koran DID, hypothetically, contain verses that had the very hateful impressions that I suspected them to have. Would you reject those verses?

 

Do you believe that these verses are injust? That man isn't simply reaping what he sows?

 

My primary worries with Islam revolve around the fact that it places far higher priority on worship than other religions. Of the five pillars of Islam, only one, the giving of alms, has any actual secular merit. This is quite jarring to an atheist like myself. The impression I have, which I deeply hope is incorrect, is that Muslims teach that prayer and obedience to god come first, and acts of goodwill come second.

 

Maybe you're placing more worth on society than you are on the purpose of life; to worship God. Think of it this way. You're taking an exam. You spend a majority of your time passing erasers and sharpeners to your peers. You smile at them. You show them as much kindness as is permitted. In the end, you fail the test because you placed too much value on the wrong thing, to the point that you neglected your objective.

 

Has anyone been graded in an exam based on his courtesy toward those around him? So why then, if our purpose of life is to worship Allah, should our outcome be based on how much we focus on everything but Him?

 

Allah did not create us to mingle and be nice to one another. He did not create us to live life as we want. So if Islam prioritizes worship, it's because worship is the priority. Not human interactions.

 

Might I add that in Islam, "worship" means more than just do rituals. It means doing everything that pleases Allah. Every action can be an act of worship if it is in accordance with Allah's revelation. Also, Zakat (obligatory charity) is not the only good act we show toward fellow humans. There is also Sadaqa (voluntary charity), which should be given constantly. Islam also promotes kindness toward neighbors (to the point where you should never go to bed full if your neighbor is hungry), kindness toward the traveler by feeding and sheltering them, and so on.

 

Salam.

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:sl:

 

The Qur'an is the Truth therefore how can we subtract anything from it? Those who reject God will go to Hell. We cannot deny this simply because it doesn't sound acceptable to some. We aren't here to make others like yourself happy by twisting Islaam and telling lies.

 

Why do you find it strange that obedience to God comes first? If you TRULY believe in God why wouldn't obedience towards Him come first? If you truly believe that God created you, and you will return to God and face judgment then this isn't something strange at all. Before you can understand Islaam you need to first have an understanding of what we believe and how that shapes our view on life. I think sister Redeem explained it quite well.

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...This is what i feared.

 

I see the world... rather differently.

 

Now, I am indeed an atheist, but I don't actively try to de-convert every religious person I meet. I only attempt to do so when I feel their particular form of religious faith is having a detrimental effect on their life. You see, I believe there are three primary reasons for why people ascribe to a religion:

 

1: Desire to enter heaven

 

2: Fear of being sent to hell

 

3: Genuine loyalty and devotion to the morals and principles that their God upholds.

 

Anyone who falls into category 2 is in my opinion a victim who hardly gets anything out of their faith and would lead a far happier life without the threat of hell looming over them. Which would you say Islam falls under? Or is there some 4th category I've missed?

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:sl:

 

Anyone who falls into category 2 is in my opinion a victim who hardly gets anything out of their faith and would lead a far happier life without the threat of hell looming over them.

 

That's not true. If someone genuinely fears being sent to Hell then surely they have true belief in God. That fear helps them live according to the commands of God and avoid doing evil acts. I can tell you that every single Muslim believes that living life according to Islaam isn't the sad and unhappy life you are assuming it is... rather it is freeing oneself and knowing exactly what your purpose in life is. I don't see how strong belief in God can lead you to live an "unhappy" life... unless of course you define a good and happy life as going out every weekend and getting drunk, fulfilling all of your immoral desires, basically doing whatever you want.

 

Also, every Muslim must fear God and every Muslim must fear His punishment... and every Muslim must desire to enter Paradise. This is all part of being a Muslim.

 

What you have said doesn't really make sense...

 

I believe there are three primary reasons for why people ascribe to a religion:

 

1: Desire to enter heaven

 

2: Fear of being sent to hell

 

In order for someone to desire Paradise and fear Hell they must first believe God. People "ascribe" themselves to a religion because they believe it is the truth.

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Also, every Muslim must fear God and every Muslim must fear His punishment... and every Muslim must desire to enter Paradise. This is all part of being a Muslim.

 

Okay. Another question:

 

If a Muslim adheres to all five of the Pillars of Islam, what acts could he/she hypothetically commit that would send him/her to hell anyway?

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:sl:

 

There is so much more to Islaam than just the 5 pillars. And it is not possible for me to answer your question regarding what acts lead to Hell. Someone may commit an evil act but then repent and be forgiven. If a Muslim was to start worshiping other than God (idols), or associating partners with Him, and died having done so (without repenting) then this is something which leads to the Fire.

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:sl:

 

There is so much more to Islaam than just the 5 pillars. And it is not possible for me to answer your question regarding what acts lead to Hell. Someone may commit an evil act but then repent and be forgiven. If a Muslim was to start worshiping other than God (idols), or associating partners with Him, and died having done so (without repenting) then this is something which leads to the Fire.

 

Then what part of Christian practice is contrary to that?

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:sl:

 

They do not believe in Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and they do not accept the Qur'an. Those who followed the Injeel (Gospel) and accepted Jesus peace be upon him as a Prophet before Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him are considered believers; but those who reject Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him are disbelievers. Does that make sense?

 

Islaam was the continuation of the religion which Prophet Jesus peace be upon him called to.

Edited by ãõ�óãóø�

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Then what part of Christian practice is contrary to that?

 

May Peace and blesings of Allah be upon you.

 

1) Initially Chrsitines said that Jesus(peace be upon him) is the son of God. Then they finally said that Jesus itself is God.

But Muslims believe that Jesus(peace be upon him) is one of the mightiest messenger of Allah and he (Jesus (peace be upon him)) is a muslim.

 

2) Secondly, they say that Jesus(peace be upon him) was crucified. But, Muslims believe Jesus (peace be upon him) was not crucified, but he has been raised by Allah when his enemies were trying to kill him and Jesus (peace be upon him) will come back to world when World is going to be destroyed.

 

Basically, if you think why Christines believe Jesus (peace be upon him) as God? is 'when Allah sends different messengers for different period of time, they (messengers) will do certain miracles by the grace of Allah. So, by the grace of Allah when Jesus (peace be upon him) did some miracles. for example: curing the disease of people (miraculously) etc...

so, the people who lived with him after his death made him as their God.

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Hey, I tried to post something in the comments and suggestions forum, but it wouldn't let me, giving me the same error message that somehow prevents me from reading peoples' profile pages. While this is off topic, the things I wish to post in the comments and suggestions forum are relevant to my experience on this thread. Does anyone know what the problem is, and how I can fix it? I feel this is an important suggestion for the forum that I have.

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Oh, is that it?

 

I wonder why. Is there some way I would be permitted to post in the suggestions forum anyway? I feel i have a very important suggestion that would greatly improve the site.

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Well, I believe I have a good argument for why it would be in the best interests of the forum if there were a thread where members could put forth arguments against Islam.

 

That might not sound like a good idea, like I said, my argument suggests that it actually serves the interests of this forum.

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:sl:

 

Try the "Answering anti-Islamic Allegations" section. To be honest with you though if it's debating you are after you've come to the wrong forum. Many of us have much more important things to get on with rather than spending hours debating and getting nowhere.

 

The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat-herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom. [2.171]

 

If you are interested in learning about Islaam then I welcome you to the forum... otherwise if it's just debating you're after I think I'll sit out on further threads.

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can you at least hear me out? What if it IS in your best interest? Isn't it worth it? By in your best interest, I mean in the best interest of promoting and spreading Islam. I want to make the argument that adding such a section would help that goal.

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:sl:

 

We are going off topic; don't want to get in trouble :sl:

 

There is already a section named "Answering anti-Islamic Allegations". I don't know whether there are restrictions on you and you can't see the section (if you can't view it maybe you need more posts).

 

But like I said if you have a suggestion you can private message the administrator "dot" or get your post count up.

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SuperZez,

 

I know where you're getting at :sl: I myself know nothing about the rules here but it's safe if you listen to the people who made this site. see up there, it says "contact dot" (no idea who he is, but Im sure hes nice) If God wills, the sisters & brothers here and I myself will entertain you and make you understand what is it about Islam thats sooo different from others :sl:

 

May Allah guide you and open your heart, Insya-Allah. Amin.

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