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How Can We Say The Bible Was Changed Before Mohammed's Time?

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In my research of the Bible and Quran …

I can’t understand why Muslims insist the Bible has been radically changed.

This doesn’t make any sense to me because …

 

Allah is talking about the Bible (which Mohammed “held in his handsâ€)

when he says such things as:

-- I sent the original prophets and had the Bible written

-- there is no changing my words

-- Mohammed should say he believes in whatever Scripture I sent down

-- Quran was sent to confirm the truth of the Bible

-- Quran was sent to safeguard (preserve) the Bible

-- to check the Bible to verify certain things

-- Jews and Christians should follow their parts of the Bible

 

Why and how changed?

If the Almighty Allah went to so much trouble to orchestrate thousands of

years of history ... so that he could have his precious Scriptures written,

it makes no sense to me that he would allow them to be changed!

 

Physically changed?

The Quran says people changed the meaning of the Bible with their tongues

and with their hands (in personal notes, etc.) for their own personal gain.

But, it never mentions any physical changes to the text.

Many of the older Muslim scholars insisted …

there was NO ALTERATION before Mohammed’s time.

 

Mohammed mute?

Why is it that Quran never warns us that there were several Bible versions?

 

It is for these reasons that I ask …

How can people say the Bible was changed before Mohammed?

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PropellerAds

Are you interpreting a copy of the Qur’aan?

 

Please excuse if I sound rude.

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The people of the Scripture (Jews) used to recite the Torah in Hebrew and they used to explain it in Arabic to the Muslims. On that Allah's Apostle said, "Do not believe the people of the Scripture or disbelieve them, but say:-- "We believe in Allah and what is revealed to us." (2.136)

 

 

 

 

You are interpreting the copies of the Qur’aan. Unlike the commentary of the Bible, the commentary of the Qur’aan is valid. Who interpreted the Bible?

Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) interpreted the Qur’aan (hadeeths). We DO have the chain of narrations/authority of not only the Qur’aan, but the hadeeths too.

Chain of authority is used by all historians in all fields, not just Islam. It is the only reliable way of knowing the realities of the past.

The Islamic knowledge is vast with the Qur’aan and the hadeeths. All of it matches. How? I am not a student so I better not even comment about Allah’s words, the science of the Qur’aanc , hadeeth et c..!!

 

So before telling us your interpretation of Islamic text, ask the meaning of these verses and to which cases they apply (smile).

The Bible is a collection of the books revealed to previous prophets (peace and blessings be upon them). The Bible doesn’t have the chain of narrations so we do not know what happened to it. Just see how many of them exist….

I wrote this here (please read is) :

We are obligated to believe in what was revealed to Muhammad, sall-Allahu alayhi wa salam. That what was revealed to Muhammad obligates us to believe in that what was revealed before him: Tevra (Torah revealed to Musa,a.s.),Injil (Isa, alayhisalam), and Zebur (Davud,a.s.).

There were other small books. And there were other prophets tells us in the Qur'aan that He didn't tell us about who they were. The belief in the prophets is something you should know about. It is all in the book I recommend.

 

 

Now, the Bible is a collection of these previous books revealed to previous prophets. The problem with the Bible is mentioned in the book I suggest for you.

1. So many translations of it.

2. The original one doesn't exist and only its contradictory translations do.

3. There is innovation in them.

4. It has no chain of narrations.

5. It speaks ill about the most rightious people chosen by Allah, i.e. the prophets (pbut).

 

 

I'm kind of in a hurry and sorry if I confused you. In conclusion, Allah revealed the previous books and the prophets (pbut) all called to same :Worship one God (TAwheed). Christians and the Jews altered these books and the storied of the prophets (pbut). Allah does change the laws from one book to another to suit the period and place.

For now, read these short articles about the belief in prophets (pbut):

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam-qa(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/en/cat/223"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam-qa(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/en/cat/223[/url]

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Orthodox,

I am mostly using Pickthall, but surely most of these points

are quite obvious in all versions.

 

 

It's never enough to use a translation. Because it doesn't translate the context and nuances.

 

When you say that the Qur'an states that the words of Allah cannot be changed, I'm assuming you mean these:

 

For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity. [10:64]

 

Rejected were the apostles before you: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words of Allah. Already have you received some account of those apostles. [6:34]

 

And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can change His Words. And He is the All-Hearer, the All-Knower. [6:115]

 

1) This one clearly refers to the promise of Allah which he has made to the believers. The "word" is the promise of Allah. Think of someone saying "you have my word".

2) Similar to the previous - the "word" is the decree of Allah that His prophets would triumph in the end.

3) The "word" is the decree of Allah which has been fulfilled in truth and justice.

 

The Qur'an cannot be interpreted by anyone, interpretations are based on the Hadiths and the scholarly writings.

 

Salam.

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Hello Redeem,

 

So, you are saying that people cannot get the true meaning of Quran just

by reading it. They are dependent upon the Hadiths and the scholars.

So then, why is Quran translated into many (all) of the world's languages?

 

This sounds like the Roman church 1000+ years ago, when many people

couldn't read and were totally dependent upon their priests.

 

It makes more sense to me that God would make His Book easily

understandable even to simple people ... as long as they can read.

 

I'm told this is how "Protestantism" started ... the people started reading

for themselves and saw that the Roman church was not teaching the truth,

and this "freedom" really weakened the power of the Roman church.

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Quran can be read by anyone and it is recommended people do so, bringing them closer to their creator Allah. However if you start to make decisions based on your limited interpretation, then this could lead to problems - take for example extremists who ignore verses promoting peace to further their own agenda.

 

You would never pick up a law book and decide to represent yourself in court, similarly to understand theological issues, you must go to qualified and learned scholars, who have studied Hadiths and Exegesis (Tafsir) on the Quran for a clearer understanding.

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Orthodox from Bosnia,

Yes, we are using different Quran versions.

Your 2:136 is not like mine at all.

Why don't you look up different versions on-line?

Meanwhile, would you like to try to explain

the contradiction in my original post?

Thanks.

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Ibrar,

 

Okay, most of the men who translated the Quran

from Arabic into English either didn’t know Arabic,

or they mis-understood the Arabic meaning.

So, now we have the question:

Were they really that ignorant, or

did they translate just to make money?

 

Is there a reasonably competent version available?

If so, we can look up my verses in that version.

I believe the best ones are on the Internet.

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Your 2:136 is not like mine at all.

 

All Muslims know at least 10 small chapters of the Qur'aan in Arabic. My goal is to be memorizing these verses in Arabic, becasue we are rewarded for reciting each letter, etc..

There is a difference between wanting to recite the Qur'aan and wanting to study it (becoming a person who educates others).

All of us get different inpiration from holy books anyways.

Translations try their best to bring out the intended meaning of Qur'aanic verses. No, the meaning of these verses are not different becasue we simply open the commentary and see what they mean...

 

Meanwhile, would you like to try to explain

the contradiction in my original post?

Thanks.

 

I don't like repeating myself:

I am not a student so I better not even comment about Allah’s words, the science of the Qur’aanc , hadeeth et c..!!

 

 

Why don't you look up different versions on-line?
I do and? Edited by Orthodox

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"Allah sent down this Qur'an to command and prevent, and as a sauna to be followed and a parable. It contains your history, information about what came before you, news about what will come after you and correct judgement between you. Repetition does not wear it out and its wonders do not end. It is the Truth. It is not a jest. Whoever recites it speaks the truth. Whoever judges by it is just. Whoever argues by it wins. Whoever divides by it is equitable. Whoever acts by it is rewarded. Whoever clings to it is guided to a straight path. Allah will misguide whoever seeks guidance from other than it. Allah will destroy whoever judges by other than it. It is the Wise Remembrance, the Clear Light, the Straight Path, the Firm Rope of Allah and the Useful Healing. It is a protection for the one who clings to it and a rescue for the one who follows it. It is not crooked and so puts things straight. It does not deviate so as to be blamed. Its wonders do not cease. It does not wear out with much repetition."

 

(At-Tirmidhi).

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Orthodox,

I was referring to our considerable disagreement on 2:136.

Why don't you look up several translations of it,

and you will see why I referred to it in my original post?

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Look, no one can write anything like the Qur'aan and these include the translations of it. You keep asking me same question over and over again. I responded to it. You don't like the answer?

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The one-and-only Orthodox wrote ...

 

The people of the Scripture (Jews) used to recite the Torah in Hebrew and they used to explain it in Arabic to the Muslims.

On that Allah's Apostle said,

"Do not believe the people of the Scripture or disbelieve them, but say:-- "We believe in Allah and what is revealed to us." (2.136)

 

She conveniently left out the rest of the verse ...

"... and that which was revealed unto Abraham ... Moses ... Jesus ... the Prophets ... We make no distinction between any of them ..."

 

As the posts show, Orthodox has refused to mend her ways.

 

I am calling Orthodox out ... as an out-and-out liar and deceiver who should NOT be allowed on this Forum.

 

{Moderator note}

This post has violated forum rule #22. Action taken.

For more details, please read our (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?act=boardrules"]Forum Rules[/url].

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I am calling Orthodox out ... as an out-and-out liar and deceiver who should NOT be allowed on this Forum.
May Allah guide you. Unfortunately, you missed and quote verses out of context.

 

 

Tafsir al-Jalalayn

 

 

{ Âãä } ÕÃÞ { ÇáÑÓæá } ãÃãà Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã { 鋂 ÃäÒá Åáíå ãä ÑÈå } ãä ÇáÞÑÂä { æÇáãÄãäæä } ÚØà Úáíå { ßá } Êäæíä ÚæÖ ãä ÇáãÖÇà Åáíå { Âãä ÈÇááå æãáÇÆßÊå æßÊÈå } ÈÇáÌãÚ æÇáÅÃÑÇà { æÑÓáå } íÞæáæä { áÇ äÃÑÞ Èíä ÃÃà ãä ÑÓáå } ÃäÄãä ÈÈÚÖ æäßÃÑ ÈÈÚÖ ßãÇ ÃÚá Çáíåæà æÇáäÕÇÑì { æÞÇáæÇ ÓãÚäÇ } Ãí ãÇ ÃãÑäÇ Èå ÓãÇÚ ÞÈæá { æÃØÚäÇ } äÓÃáß { ÛÃÑÇäß ÑÈäÇ æÅáíß ÇáãÕíÑ } ÇáãÑÌÚ ÈÇáÈÚË¡ æáãÇ äÒáÊ ÇáÂíÉ ÇáÊí ÞÈáåÇ 蓼 ÇáãÄãäæä ãä ÇáæÓæÓÉ æÔÞ Úáíåã ÇáãÃÇÓÈÉ 錂 ÃäÒá .

 

 

 

The Messenger, Muhammad (s) believes in, affirms the truth of, what was revealed to him from his Lord, namely, the Qur’ān, and the believers (wa’l-mu’minūna is a supplement to al-rasūlu, ‘the Messenger’); each one (the tanwīn of kullun stands in place of the second noun in an annexation [sc. kullu wāhidin]) believes in God and His angels, and in His Books, all of them and each of them, and His messengers, and they say, [u]‘we make no distinction between any of His messengers’, believing in some and disbelieving in others, in the manner of the Jews and the Christians. [/u]And they say, ‘We hear, what we have been enjoined to hear and accept, and obey; we ask you: Your forgiveness, our Lord; to You is the homecoming’, that is, the return at the Resurrection. When the previous verse was revealed, the believers complained of evil whisperings and it grieved them that they should be taken to account according to [the principle expressed in] it...

 

For further information:

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yettafsir(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/default.asp?sid=2&tid=6713"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yettafsir(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/default.asp?sid=2&tid=6713[/url]

 

Your approach is not valid at all. Do you see Paul mentioned in any of those verses? Plus read what they (prophets) believed in. Do you want me to quote you Torah which condemns many practices practices by you?

Edited by Orthodox

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She conveniently left out the rest of the verse ...

"... and that which was revealed unto Abraham ... Moses ... Jesus ... the Prophets ... We make no distinction between any of them ..."

 

As the posts show, Orthodox has refused to mend her ways.

 

I am calling Orthodox out ... as an out-and-out liar and deceiver who should NOT be allowed on this Forum.

 

Are you trying to imply that sister Orthodox rejects the revelations sent to Moses, Jesus or Abraham? Because that's a really flimsy and unfounded accusation. The articles of belief in Islam:

 

1) To believe in Allah

2) To believe in His angels.

3) To believe in His books.

4) To believe in His messengers.

5) To believe in the Day of Judgment.

6) To believe in Divine Preordainment.

 

You are twisting her words out of context either because a) you lack a basic understanding of Islam b) you're just trying to make trouble.

 

By the way, why don't you share with us what faith you follow? You have your profile set to "other religion", but you sure do argue like a Christian.

 

Salam.

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Redeem,

No ... I am trying to imply that sister Orthodox deliberately left off

the end of 2:136 to deceive me and whomever else read her post.

She was responding to my original Thread post.

I'll have nothing more to do with her ...

she's not dealing with any kind of honesty at all.

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Orthodox deliberately left off

the end of 2:136 to deceive me and whomever else read her post.

 

That was a hadeeth, not a verse. The verse I quoted clears out all your misconseptions (al Baqarah 2:285).

 

Narrated Abu Huraira:

 

The people of the Scripture (Jews) used to recite the Torah in Hebrew and they used to explain it in Arabic to the Muslims. On that Allah's Apostle said, "Do not believe the people of the Scripture or disbelieve them, but say:-- "We believe in Allah and what is revealed to us." (2.136)

 

 

']‘we make no distinction between any of His messengers’, believing in some and disbelieving in others, in the manner of the Jews and the Christians'

 

 

 

And indeed, We have preferred some of the Prophets above others, and to Dawud We gave the Zabur (Psalms)) [17:55].

 

The distinction the verse speaks about is that we do not reject other prophets as you do. However, Allah preferred some messangers over others as shown by 17:55.

Edited by Orthodox

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If the Almighty Allah went to so much trouble to orchestrate thousands of

years of history ... so that he could have his precious Scriptures written,

it makes no sense to me that he would allow them to be changed

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Why are previous scriptures not preserved?

 

The answer is within the scriptures, revelations themselves.

The Torah & Gospel were sent to a people (Jews in both cases) for specific times - limited to those times only, another reason is that in the infinte wisdom and mercy of Allah subhana wa t'ala He has given us proof through previous scriptures in regard to the freewill of man, the corruption is also spoken about in the Quran, Allah tells us that the Jews hid what they knew and changed the meaning of the scriptures because it did not suit them.

 

This proves freewill - in spite of having absolute proof of Allah, His sovereignty and His laws, man became disobedient, corrupt and sold the hereafter for this life.

 

Allah further tells mankind that His promise does not change and sent with the final Messenger pbuh a protected revelation. These scriptures in reality serve as a warning and proof to mankind that regardless of how we behave we can never outwit or ultimately benefit ourselves through our disobedience to Him.

 

Another interesting question that I would not mind some understanding of is, how it is that any person can become either Jew or Christian, when the former scriptures make clear in themselves that, they are limited to only the Jewish tribe, yet, the Quran (which they deny) is clear that it is a mercy for ALL mankind. Isn't this further proof that man is ever disobedient & ungrateful to his Creator?

 

For both Christians and Jews to recognise the message that is contained within the Quran yet disbelieve therein (what else explains the accusations of plagerism?), is not about denial of Allah, but is about not desiring to obey Him - A dangerous choice, given that no futher Messengers will be sent.

 

Man has free will, he can can either accept the message from Allah swt and spread it to his fellow man - ie not change it and look forward to His reward, or reject the truth and therefore accept that ultimately he chose the punishment of his Creator. Allah tells us all that we choose our end abode,and He Allah azza wa jal, does not lie.

 

On a final note, it is of utmost importance to make a definitive distinction here about the preservation of the Quran, because in truth the Quran is strictly an oral recitation, the kitab or book of the Quran is called the Mushahb. So in the first instance the transmission of the Quran is the beautiful recitation, and clearly this has been preserved by no small miracle through the daily recitation and memorisation of the early muslims alongside those amongst them who were able to read and write. The Quran has continued to be recited and transmitted this way for more than 1400 years, Allah is greater.

 

In addition to that, another miraculous aspect of the Quran is the fact that the majority of scholars who excel in the language of the Quran are not native speaking Arabs. Are NOT native speaking Arabs. So Arabic is their second language but studied in such depth that the translations have been made possible.

 

Despite the complexity of learning the sophisticated language of Quran, literally hundreds of thousands of muslims globally have committed to memory the entire Quran, the majority of whom have done so understanding its meaning. No other book in history has any such claim. Literally, whomsoever Allah chooses to expand his knowledge will be able to learn and retain knowledge, not only in terms of Quran but also the hadiths (Imam Bukhari memorised more than 300,000 hadiths including chain of transmission) and then will also comprehend the meaning. This is in accordance with the promise of Allah to man.

 

To understand that only the original Arabic recitation & record (the Mushahb) is the Divine Revelation is also important, (as is the case with all revelation) because it literally is the precise transmission from Allah Himself and language is an amazing tool that is tailored to the needs and social norms of its people. so language develops around a culture, in the case of Arabic, the language is far more dense and sophisticated than the English language for example, and therefore, even the very best of translations are seemingly pale by comparison to the Divine Revelation. Even the most most eloquent authors of Arabic have been unable to come close to the beauty of the language of the Quran. Indeed the Quran issues a challenge to the Arab Poets to produce even a single surah like it. The challenge has never been met!

 

Sorry its long.

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In my research of the Bible and Quran …

I can’t understand why Muslims insist the Bible has been radically changed.

This doesn’t make any sense to me because …

 

Allah is talking about the Bible (which Mohammed “held in his hands”)

 

 

Brother Truth Seeker,

 

There is no intention to claim that Bible was re-written in the early days of Christianity. Go back earlier. Much earlier. Beginning in the time of Adam the stories and memories began. They were told orally generation to generation long before the first writing was known to man. As time passed the tales grew to include events more recent. At the time of Noah there was still no formalized or universally recognized recording of history available to man. And history is what we're talking about. The history of the earliest memories. After the flood only those parts of what went before that were known to Noah survived to be again passed down father and mother to daughter and son. It was a very long from then to the day of Moses when we find the compilation of the Torah for the first time. Add to this body of knowledge the old stories and now was the beginning of the Old Testament in it's accepted form. Yet much of it was still not formally recorded due to prohibitions of the time.

 

To this day there is much discussion regarding the authenticity of any of these old texts. Scholars of every bent have opinions. The general consensus is that the Torah as it exists today is the very best that we probably will ever know. It is important though to be aware of history before declaring any scriptural inerrancy. Mind you the scholar and the emotional devotee will often disagree in this.

 

Now consider the components which were to become the New Testament. During the first two plus centuries of Christianity much more was available to men than is recognized today. When the Bible was first codified decisions were made regarding the content. Four gospels it was decided were sufficient, for instance. Much more scriptural material was omitted. These decisions were not made by God but by men. However well intended these men were they did, in fact, pick and choose everything that we see in the Bible today. It was to be the very first Bible. Beyond that time, excepting the small variations due to translations to other languages, the Bible remained intact until the reformation when some books were deleted (different story). And, were there any other changes? There remains many who argue this way or that. Who is right? Who is wrong? Beware the man who makes blanket statements. Any uneducated person can do this.

 

So a few hundred years later here is Muhammad the Arab, a well traveled merchant by occupation, at a meditation retreat in the desert. He was a godly man. Pure in the manner of his life. He was known for his honesty in all dealings. The rest of the story is a matter of easily detectable history. The history of the Qur'an is firmly established as opposed to all the works that went before. Of course there was knowledge of the religions of the day. Judaism, Christianity and the array of gods that the people of the deserts held onto so fiercely because they were so tightly interwoven into the dominant culture. Muhammad may have held a Greek Bible in his hand as someone suggests but he did not read it. He did not know how to read. Attempts by "outsiders" to "tame" these warlike nomadic peoples failed. A man who was "one of them" was needed. And even then the task was almost defeated. What was this "task"? To bring monotheism to these people. A prophet OF that land was needed to do the job. God choose Muhammad.

 

More ahead now to the present and be aware of the claim of Islam that the Bible is "corrupt". Well that is a somewhat harsh word in these times. What is meant is that the books do not reflect sufficiently the original meanings. The Old Testament, in it's entirety is argued about even now. For a very long time writing it was forbidden. Here is a human factor which has nothing to with God. It probably was thought that should the Word of God be recorded on "paper" and then something happened to that "paper" a sacrilege would be the result. Note that Jews today will write God as G-d for this very same reason. Regarding the New Testament remember that so much was never included. Where is the information now that was used by the earliest Christians? How about the testimonies of the other remaining apostles that went to eastern lands and to Ethiopia? Consider also the man Saul who arrived on the Christian scene some years after the passing of Jesus. I do not doubt his mission to the gentiles was authentic but much of Paul the man is in his letters. Compare to John the man and Matthew the man and note the differences in style of writing.

 

Include in this debate the existence of so many other "books" which are commonly eschewed by Christianity today. Who is to say that this is a proper action? Do we claim to know better than God regarding scripture? Apparently many of us do indeed make that claim.

 

When we claim that the Qur'an is the latest of that which is given by God to man all these other considerations must be allowed. We do not claim that the Bible was ever changed and thus corrupted. We claim that it was never a complete representation of the Word of God in the first place. The ministry of Jesus is best told by what he said in His sermon on the mount. It is this, in the main, and His manner of life which which we hold in reverence and not so much of what came later (the Bible). We do not believe in any triune God but neither did early Christianity. Over the years there was much heated debate regarding that. We do not believe that Jesus is God. Judaism teaches that God does not have a corporeal body. Only a minority of Christians today believe that Jesus is God. I fail to understand why this would be so. For every passage in the Bible that seems to support this conclusion there are others which seem to deny the possibility. Here is the mind of man in action. Most Christians are satisfied in believing that Jesus is the Son of God. We believe that Jesus is a Prophet of God. His was a principal mission to the Jews. There is nothing in any of this which would seem to cause such great divisions in men. Or is there? Where humans are concerned anything is possible.

 

Certainly there is much similarity between the Bible and the Qur'an. Why, if it is the Will of God to correct, would this not be so? It is my belief that we will find in the Qur'an information which compliments and enlarges upon what is seen in both the Old and the New Testamenst. There are also some corrections. It is so unfortunate that this is seen and interpreted as plagiarism by some Christians who "knee jerk" to the possibility of God giving the world some corrections to accepted scripture in the form of the Qur'an. It is my opinion that the reason for the scientific information included in the Qur'an is God's way of telling us that "yes" it's real. I need not remind anyone of the impossibility of Muhammad being so acutely knowledgeable of the manner of deep ocean waves that have only been discovered in recent years that he could sit in the sands of the desert and expound upon them. Quite impossible. These scientific inclusions in the Qur'an are meant as "authentications" for us today. Nothing like them was ever included in scripture before Muhammad's time. The Prophecy is valid.

 

In conclusion study all available scripture and become a scholar. You will find though that even this is not enough. Read with a critical eye and a discerning mind and find that you will be lead to the recitation of the last recognized Prophet of God. You need not become either Muslim or adopt any middle eastern culture in order to gain benefit from what it reveals. If it is your path in life to be a Christian then remain so and be the best of all Christians. In your studies do not let yourself to become bogged down by nit picking details. Remember the hand of man in scripture always when making statements regarding God. This fact is the reason we take such care to not ever allow the Qur'an to be modified. We consider Islam to be the closest practice to the intent of God that is present on the earth now. No one should ever tell you that there is a perfect religion. We try our very best to have one but we are men only and we often fail.

 

Judaism, Christianity, Islam.... When these brothers unite in God the world will know peace and Satan will be defeated. Not before.

 

May the Heart of God Guide us all,

 

JamesYaqub

Edited by JamesYaqub

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In my research of the Bible and Quran …

I can’t understand why Muslims insist the Bible has been radically changed.

This doesn’t make any sense to me because …

 

Allah is talking about the Bible (which Mohammed “held in his handsâ€)

Brother Truth Seeker,

 

There is no intention to claim that Bible was re-written in the early days of Christianity. Go back earlier. Much earlier. Beginning in the time of Adam the stories and memories began. They were told orally generation to generation long before the first writing was known to man. As time passed the tales grew to include events more recent. At the time of Noah there was still no formalized or universally recognized recording of history available to man. And history is what we're talking about. The history of the earliest memories. After the flood only those parts of what went before that were known to Noah survived to be again passed down father and mother to daughter and son. It was a very long from then to the day of Moses when we find the compilation of the Torah for the first time. Add to this body of knowledge the old stories and now was the beginning of the Old Testament in it's accepted form. Yet much of it was still not formally recorded due to prohibitions of the time.

 

To this day there is much discussion regarding the authenticity of any of these old texts. Scholars of every bent have opinions. The general consensus is that the Torah as it exists today is the very best that we probably will ever know. It is important though to be aware of history before declaring any scriptural inerrancy. Mind you the scholar and the emotional devotee will often disagree in this.

 

Now consider the components which were to become the New Testament. During the first two plus centuries of Christianity much more was available to men than is recognized today. When the Bible was first codified decisions were made regarding the content. Four gospels it was decided were sufficient, for instance. Much more scriptural material was omitted. These decisions were not made by God but by men. However well intended these men were they did, in fact, pick and choose everything that we see in the Bible today. It was to be the very first Bible. Beyond that time, excepting the small variations due to translations to other languages, the Bible remained intact until the reformation when some books were deleted (different story). And, were there any other changes? There remains many who argue this way or that. Who is right? Who is wrong? Beware the man who makes blanket statements. Any uneducated person can do this.

 

So a few hundred years later here is Muhammad the Arab, a well traveled merchant by occupation, at a meditation retreat in the desert. He was a godly man. Pure in the manner of his life. He was known for his honesty in all dealings. The rest of the story is a matter of easily detectable history. The history of the Qur'an is firmly established as opposed to all the works that went before. Of course there was knowledge of the religions of the day. Judaism, Christianity and the array of gods that the people of the deserts held onto so fiercely because they were so tightly interwoven into the dominant culture. Muhammad may have held a Greek Bible in his hand as someone suggests but he did not read it. He did not know how to read. Attempts by "outsiders" to "tame" these warlike nomadic peoples failed. A man who was "one of them" was needed. And even then the task was almost defeated. What was this "task"? To bring monotheism to these people. A prophet OF that land was needed to do the job. God choose Muhammad.

 

More ahead now to the present and be aware of the claim of Islam that the Bible is "corrupt". Well that is a somewhat harsh word in these times. What is meant is that the books do not reflect sufficiently the original meanings. The Old Testament, in it's entirety is argued about even now. For a very long time writing it was forbidden. Here is a human factor which has nothing to with God. It probably was thought that should the Word of God be recorded on "paper" and then something happened to that "paper" a sacrilege would be the result. Note that Jews today will write God as G-d for this very same reason. Regarding the New Testament remember that so much was never included. Where is the information now that was used by the earliest Christians? How about the testimonies of the other remaining apostles that went to eastern lands and to Ethiopia? Consider also the man Saul who arrived on the Christian scene some years after the passing of Jesus. I do not doubt his mission to the gentiles was authentic but much of Paul the man is in his letters. Compare to John the man and Matthew the man and note the differences in style of writing.

 

Include in this debate the existence of so many other "books" which are commonly eschewed by Christianity today. Who is to say that this is a proper action? Do we claim to know better than God regarding scripture? Apparently many of us do indeed make that claim.

 

When we claim that the Qur'an is the latest of that which is given by God to man all these other considerations must be allowed. We do not claim that the Bible was ever changed and thus corrupted. We claim that it was never a complete representation of the Word of God in the first place. The ministry of Jesus is best told by what he said in His sermon on the mount. It is this, in the main, and His manner of life which which we hold in reverence and not so much of what came later (the Bible). We do not believe in any triune God but neither did early Christianity. Over the years there was much heated debate regarding that. We do not believe that Jesus is God. Judaism teaches that God does not have a corporeal body. Only a minority of Christians today believe that Jesus is God. I fail to understand why this would be so. For every passage in the Bible that seems to support this conclusion there are others which seem to deny the possibility. Here is the mind of man in action. Most Christians are satisfied in believing that Jesus is the Son of God. We believe that Jesus is a Prophet of God. His was a principal mission to the Jews. There is nothing in any of this which would seem to cause such great divisions in men. Or is there? Where humans are concerned anything is possible.

 

Certainly there is much similarity between the Bible and the Qur'an. Why, if it is the Will of God to correct, would this not be so? It is my belief that we will find in the Qur'an information which compliments and enlarges upon what is seen in both the Old and the New Testamenst. There are also some corrections. It is so unfortunate that this is seen and interpreted as plagiarism by some Christians who "knee jerk" to the possibility of God giving the world some corrections to accepted scripture in the form of the Qur'an. It is my opinion that the reason for the scientific information included in the Qur'an is God's way of telling us that "yes" it's real. I need not remind anyone of the impossibility of Muhammad being so acutely knowledgeable of the manner of deep ocean waves that have only been discovered in recent years that he could sit in the sands of the desert and expound upon them. Quite impossible. These scientific inclusions in the Qur'an are meant as "authentications" for us today. Nothing like them was ever included in scripture before Muhammad's time. The Prophecy is valid.

 

In conclusion study all available scripture and become a scholar. You will find though that even this is not enough. Read with a critical eye and a discerning mind and find that you will be lead to the recitation of the last recognized Prophet of God. You need not become either Muslim or adopt any middle eastern culture in order to gain benefit from what it reveals. If it is your path in life to be a Christian then remain so and be the best of all Christians. In your studies do not let yourself to become bogged down by nit picking details. Remember the hand of man in scripture always when making statements regarding God. This fact is the reason we take such care to not ever allow the Qur'an to be modified. We consider Islam to be the closest practice to the intent of God that is present on the earth now. No one should ever tell you that there is a perfect religion. We try our very best to have one but we are men only and we often fail.

 

Judaism, Christianity, Islam.... When these brothers unite in God the world will know peace and Satan will be defeated. Not before.

 

May the Heart of God Guide us all,

 

JamesYaqub

You are right about a lot of things and leave it open to the reader which I like. I do have a few questions.

You say God protected and preserved the Quran, so why would God not see to the protection and perseverance of the Bible for those good people that lived before Mohammad?

Would the Holy Spirit allow humans to add uninspired works or leave out any of His inspired works that He wanted us to have?

Could the Holy Spirit allow corruptions of the message He wanted us to have and still be consistent to his objective?

Jesus did not come along correcting what was being used, but added to the interpretation and expanded the scope. The Doctrine He taught was the same as was written in the Old Testament. So why did he not make corrections?

As far as “other†books not being included in the New Testament it is not that hard to see why they were not (they were obvious forgeries, teach wild doctrine, where not protected and preserved well or do not claim to be inspired). The apocrypha books were Old Testament writings that have very little in the way of “doctrineâ€, are song books or stories and can be read, but are not considered “inspiredâ€. Yes there were other letters written by the apostles we do not have, but we do not need any more, since we have plenty in the New Testament and the indwelling Holy Spirit.

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You are right about a lot of things and leave it open to the reader which I like. I do have a few questions.

You say God protected and preserved the Quran, so why would God not see to the protection and perseverance of the Bible for those good people that lived before Mohammad?

Would the Holy Spirit allow humans to add uninspired works or leave out any of His inspired works that He wanted us to have?

Could the Holy Spirit allow corruptions of the message He wanted us to have and still be consistent to his objective?

Jesus did not come along correcting what was being used, but added to the interpretation and expanded the scope. The Doctrine He taught was the same as was written in the Old Testament. So why did he not make corrections?

As far as “other” books not being included in the New Testament it is not that hard to see why they were not (they were obvious forgeries, teach wild doctrine, where not protected and preserved well or do not claim to be inspired). The apocrypha books were Old Testament writings that have very little in the way of “doctrine”, are song books or stories and can be read, but are not considered “inspired”. Yes there were other letters written by the apostles we do not have, but we do not need any more, since we have plenty in the New Testament and the indwelling Holy Spirit.

 

 

 

Our discussion here is indication of the very same process that those faced so long ago when they had to debate and decide. But God was with them. At no time does God "dictate" or decide what a man will do though we so often hear otherwise. An impulse is received but it is translated in the small mind of a man always. Are the testimonies of others of the original 11 surviving Apostles to be judge as being "off center" just because we don't understand what it is they contain? Did Jesus ordain the 12 only to lose one and dismiss the efforts of 7 allowing only 4 to convey His words? Can this possibly be? It is poor counsel, I think, to disregard any scripture of those times. The early Christians did not but we do? Why? Because some men say so? I believe that, in the grand scheme of things, that God might well think it was time later for a bit more to be given. What an opportunity then to do this in such a way as to achieve two goals at the same time? When I consider that in all the scriptures of those times, or rather through all, the entire group of Semites is involved. Is there no wisdom in an effort to bring people together? And, in that effort, must it be that one group is allowed to stand unaffected while others come to it? It is entirely human to expect that others must join in our beliefs. But none of us possesses God's Word in it's entirety. It may well be that we err when we claim that their are errors of omission which our text corrects. It may be simply that God wishes to bring us all along the path together in His own time hold back some things for later.

 

The earlier Moasic period in religious history might be thought of as the time of "God's Law". Then Jesus begins a new era in teaching "God's Love" for humanity. Later these two merge in synthesis as "Knowing cooperation by Humanity with God's Purpose". See how three steps might be taken? Three steps which when thought of separately do not reveal any but a conflicting design but when brought together suddenly allow the mind of man to realize the greatness of God's methods. Are we to move forward to the "Kingdom of God" without the proper foundation? Put another way:

 

The Will of God Moses Obedience

The Love of God Jesus Belief Abraham Noah Adam God

Knowing Synthesis Muhammad Application

 

I present here a perfectly plausible scheme by which God might allow us to discover for ourselves what we need to be doing in order to achieve the ultimate purpose. The Kingdom of God is a nice sounding name that implies nothing less than humanity united in the Spirit of God. This unification is misconstrued when it is thought that all must become only one religious expression of purpose. To realization of God's plan for all of us cannot become reality until we all come to the realization that only together, everyone arm in arm, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, will the Door to final resurrection open to us. So far we teach in separative terms with selfish demands that everyone abandon two of the three paths and join in only one of them. Nothing will be achieved this way unless we want to see more hatred and division, more war on earth. Jesus occupies a special position as He is personally responsible for God's plan to be fully implemented. He cannot return to earth in openness until we ourselves finally arrive at the conclusion that is it we who must make it happen. God will not do it for us. Believing is not enough. Cooperative inclusive action is needed. The next, and final, step is our responsibility. This great need is the very reason that we have been "in training" by God in different ways for so long. We have to stop with out selfish demands that only one religion is the "correct" one. This thinking is what holds humanity back and it is this divisive course which fuels the constant wars that we see today.

 

We cannot change the world unless we first can change ourselves. The way, then, is to start reorganizing our own thinking. It will spread like the wind to the entire earth when it starts with one person.

 

 

conclusion.... I guess what I am saying is that none of us, Muslims included, will ever understand by using our minds alone. We must learn to use our hearts. And, as long as emotions run rampant it is they that rule, not the mind or the heart. Perhaps it is then for the scholars and thinkers to lead the way. When humanity blends all the three sundered brothers and sisters we will know God. Until we do that we fight each other like children.

 

What do you think...?

 

James

 

There have been certain great misapplications of scripture in the past that hold us back now. Next topic.

Edited by JamesYaqub

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Ibrar,

 

The Almighty made several "everlasting" covenants with israel in the O.T.

You can check where the word was used in a Concordance.

Regarding His last covenant, He said he would replace it with a new and better one,

which is the New Covenant (Testament).

I believe it replaces everything except the Ten Commandments.

All throughout this last covenant (N.T.), you see the FINALITY of it:

"the" doctrine, "the everlasting" gospel, "the" word of truth, etc.

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James,

 

Lots of words, but no spiritual revelation from the Almighty GOD.

Words, opinions, etc. are quite meaningless really.

Intelligence and education have NOTHING to do with spiritual Truth, which comes by revelation (to anyone).

 

"We do not believe in any triune God but neither did early Christianity."

There are 70+ verses which show, teach, and reveal otherwise:

 

God will be born on the earth as a Son ...

Old Testament … Isaiah 7:14; Isaiah 9:6

New Testament … Matthew 1:23; Luke 1:35; John 1:14

 

Jesus has the same names and titles as Father God ...

Lord, Lord of Glory, Lord of Hosts, Savior, Redeemer, I AM, Rock, King,

Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End, First and Last

 

Jesus claimed to be “I AM†(God’s name forever, Exodus 3:14) ...

John 8:24, 8:28, 8:58, 13:19, 18:5-8, 4:26

 

Jesus claimed equality with Father God ...

John 5:23, 10:30, 10:33, 10:36, 10:38, 17:22, 14:9-11, 5:18

 

Others claimed Jesus was equal to Father God ...

John 1:1-14, 20:28; Hebrews 1:3, 1:8-11; 1 Timothy 3:16;

Romans 9:5; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Titus 2:13; 1 John 5:20;

Colossians 1:15, 1:19, 2:9; Philippians 2:6-8; Jude 4;

 

Jesus was the Creator of all things, and is now the Sustainer ...

Creator … John 1:1-14; Hebrews 1:2, 1:8-11, 3:4; Colossians 1:16;

Ephesians 4:25; 1 Corinthians 8:6

Sustainer … Colossian 1:17; Hebrews 1:3

 

Jesus had total power and authority over everything

and everybody (moreso than anyone else in history) ...

Matthew 4:24, 8:16-17, 8:26-27; Luke 4:40-41; etc.

 

Jesus is the Giver of eternal life ...

John 5:21, 6:27, 10:28, 11:25, 14:6; Acts 3:15;

Hebrews 5:9; 1 John 1:1-2; 1 John 5:11, 20

 

If you need any of these explained, I'd be happy to.

 

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