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Seriously, Isn't The Source Of The Qur'an In Doubt?

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I personally think this topic is posted in bad taste.

 

[at]Razz:

“Its common knowledge that biblical scholars can add or delete things in the bible if they come to a agreement about what they think is appropriate. We have the first Quran and nothing has been altered”

“How can I be wrong when there are different versions of the bible?”

Razz, you are mistaken.

 

The manuscripts which are used to compile the bible remain in museums and among other societies where they are studied and preserved. Some of the earliest manuscripts of the New Testament gospels date back between 55 AD and 90/100 AD which is during the lifetime of the apostles, a few decades after Jesus’ death. They have not been changed. The Dead Sea Scrolls which date back to 2nd Century BC contain all the Books of the Old Testament as they are in the Bible.

 

The Council of Nicaea was a Roman lead council which decided which books would make the Christian Bible. Again, we have the earliest manuscripts which pre-date this council.

 

The Gospel is not one, there are four. The four New Testament gospels differ because they are the accounts of 4 people so not all the little details are identical. If you and three other people walk into an ice cream shop, you do not notice the same small details. The core of the message is the same.

 

“o I just wanted to add that I recently heard (I dont know if this is true, maybe you can shed some light on it) that the book of Armageddon was written by 4 guys on shrooms. Apparently getting high on shrooms was common back then and they went up to a mountain, ate some shrooms, and started to come up with the material for Argmageddon. Again i dont know if this is true but it would be funny if it were I can just see them "DRAGONS!!, FIReballs raining DOWN!!”

 

If you are referring to the Book of Revelation: it was written by John of Patmos, Jesus’ disciple. He was imprisoned on the Greek Island of Patmos when he received these visions. Not all Christians take this book literally (fundamentalist do). To some it has metaphorical significance.

 

[at]JamesYaqub:

“No one on this site has any interest in planting seeds of doubt in the minds of Christians concerning the Bible.”

 

Not so true.

 

[at]Redeem

The Quran does not specify word for word what Jesus taught. Are his teachings in the Bible compatible with surrendering to God? Yes.

 

[at]Yusha

 

“For your information , the first miracle of Jesus was mentioned in Quran , not in the bible , It happened just after he was born , I will let you research this yourself”

 

If this concerns Jesus talking as a baby: while I don’t believe it’s impossible, I think Mary would have told the disciples and it does not appear in extra-biblical gospels, even the protoevengelum attributed to Jesus’ brother James which has a more detailed account of the nativity.

 

[at]Yusha

“Don't you realize that the Qur'an came down directly after the Nicean Corruption”

 

The earliest manuscripts of the New Testament gospels pre-date the Nicaean Council. The Old Testament Books pre-date Christianity.

No one can say that Jesus’ message in the NT is false if they have not read it or applied it. I have applied his teachings and they work. That’s enough for me.

The Bible isn't corrupted. There are some translations that are better than others. There have been some interpolations by overzealous scribes, but we know and can identify them. Bottom line, the Bible is dependable and it is not a fraction as bad as many Muslims would have us believe, but they have to nay say it otherwise they would have to follow the Biblical Jesus that so clashes with Islam. Ishmael was blessed and made a mighty nation by God. Muhammad is a descendant of Ishmael, but the blessing turns to a curse when Islam messes with or curses Jews and Christians because God said I will bless those that bless you and curse those that curse you. Even the Torah says no prophet comes from Ishmael Gen 17:21 &21:12 So, to the Muslim, the Bible is from Allah as long as it doesn't cross the Quran, but if it does, it is corrupted. When Christians come on too strong with the truth, they get cut off or blocked or warned. This forum has been pretty tolerant but most are not.

Edited by aj4u

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PropellerAds
Whoops did it just say Jesus Barabbas?

 

NIV Matthew 27:15-17=======

15 Now it was the governor’s custom each year during the Passover celebration to release one prisoner to the crowd—anyone they wanted. 16 This year there was a notorious prisoner, a man named Barabbas. 17 As the crowds gathered before Pilate’s house that morning, he asked them, “Which one do you want me to release to you—Barabbas, or Jesus who is called the Messiah?â€

 

Have we been reading and believing that the man named Barabbas was a mass murderer the whole time? Because Barabba in aramaic isn't a persons name, rather it means "The Son of the Father." So now in the RSV, Jesus Barabbas means Jesus The Son of the Father. So who was crucified then? Jesus the Messiah or Jesus the Son of the Father?

 

The list can go on with problems about the bible. And seeing how now people are just discovering these mistakes and correcting them (RSV) almost 2000 years after it was supposedly revealed - makes me wonder how people still buy that the bible is the true infallible word of God

 

 

Abba has been found as a personal name in a 1st-century burial at Giv'at ja-Mivtar, and Abba also appears as a personal name frequently in the Gemara section of the Talmud, dating from AD 200–400.[15] These findings support "Barabbas" being used to indicate the son of a person named Abba or Abbas (a patronymic).

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I have found this topic rather intriguing as although I took shahada I stepped away because I feel that no shahada can be anything more than just words when there is still such doubt regarding the prophethood of Muhammad in one's heart because that would be lacking in iman. However, I did feel the need to interject after reading a post where someone seriously used 1 John 4:1-4 as a means of testing angels and likes.

 

As an individual who has taken theology classes at the college formerly known as Crichton out of Memphis and further studies at Belhaven University in Jackson I must point out some commonly overlooked facts about the verses in question. Of course, in my opinion, that which I am pointing out should be obvious to those that have reading comprehension.

 

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

 

You may notice that I posted more than the verses in question. Why? Because to understand things in the Bible it is crucial to understand what is being said after & before. Cherry picking is a growing problem in Christianity. First of all to all basic Christian understanding this particular book was likely written by Paul, secondly you have to understand that here what is being referred to is the gentiles, likely Rome in which case some are denying that Jesus even existed! Think of the growing number of atheists and new agers today, many of them do not say yes we believe Jesus lived and he was a good person.

 

No! They say that they believe Jesus is a myth. This is the growing belief that is spreading throughout the world. What did the serpent (who Christianity teaches was Satan) tell Eve? What was it that he appealed to in order to get her to eat the forbidden fruit? Did he tell her to worship him? Did he pretend to be another God? Satan has never been given this credit in all of the tales in the Bible. Pick one I dare you.

 

Satan appeals to her desire to be God. In the temptation of Jesus in the book of Luke what did Satan try to appeal with? Did he tell Jesus he would give him inner peach and how to wash his hands? NO! He said that he would give him the world and place him at the head. The true appeal of Satan to man is to worship self, and love self. He appeals to the sense of pride that resides in man. The desire for man to be greater than God, to curse God as is he tried to get Job to do.

 

I will honestly say that I have not read all of this thread but I have to be honest. What started me on this quest that made me question Christianity to start with was the story of Paul's vision on the road to Damascus. Why? Because I considered myself a follower of Christ and thus his warnings and words do not go unheeded. Jesus said:

 

 

“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

 

that would be Matthew 24:26-27 if you want to reference it. What did Paul claim? Paul claimed first that he saw Jesus out in the desert (wilderness?) and then claimed that he was receiving revelation from Jesus in prison (inner room?). This seemed rather striking to me.

 

Now with all that said I must admit I too have questioned the plausibility of the message having come from Satan. I think the best way to test this though is to reflect back on the words of the angels in the past and the responses of the prophets in the past.

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I don't believe Muhammad was a prophet. In my honest opinion, I believe that all Muhammad did was steal things out of the Bible and twist them around to make himself look like he had divine revelations from the Angel Gabriel. Muhammad never talks about all the Miracles that Jesus worked which clearly show that Jesus was more than just a prophet of God. The Bible warns of false prophets who are wolves in sheeps clothing. And this is exactly what Muhammad was. Muhammad was the so-called " seal " of the prophets, and if Jesus was nothing more than a prophet (just like Muhammad), then how come Jesus worked Miracles and Muhammad didn't ? I think Muhammad had an above average IQ for his time and wanted to deceive people into following him ( so he could be famous ) so he created this cult known as Islam. If it wasn't for the Bible the Koran wouldn't exist, simple as that. Seems like everything else in the Bible is OK to Muhammad except for Jesus being the Son of God. Doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Then again, Muhammad had to change some things up to make it appear as if he really was a prophet who had new divine revelation. If he didn't do that, all Muhammad would have done was repeat the exact same stories that are in the Bible which wouldn't make him look like a prophet at all. Really easy to see through rubbish if you really use your mind.

 

Cheers

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I could make a similar argument against Paul.... the man in the inner room, the one proclaiming to have seen Jesus (pbuh) in the wilderness, the man who can't even keep his own story straight as to how his 'vision' occurred.

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I think Muhammad had an above average IQ for his time and wanted to deceive people into following him ( so he could be famous ) so he created this cult known as Islam. If it wasn't for the Bible the Koran wouldn't exist, simple as that. Seems like everything else in the Bible is OK to Muhammad except for Jesus being the Son of God. Doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Then again, Muhammad had to change some things up to make it appear as if he really was a prophet who had new divine revelation. If he didn't do that, all Muhammad would have done was repeat the exact same stories that are in the Bible which wouldn't make him look like a prophet at all. Really easy to see through rubbish if you really use your mind.

 

Cheers

What would Muhammad pbuh have gained from lying? To be famous! The quraish offered Muhammad a high position amongst them and wealth so that he would stop denouncing their gods but he refused this. If he really wanted fame or wealth that was his perfect opportunity.

 

He lived a completely simple life. And if you had really ever studied the life of Muhammad you would see that being a prophet was a difficult thing for him - his life was in danger, he had to move from his home city etc. He could have put all this to end by accepting their wish. The prophet also didn't want to be treated like he was special - he didn't expect people to stand up for him when he entered the room, revelations from the quran tell people that he is no more than a man, and whatever food or money he did receive he spent it on his family and shared it among the community. So I think it is a wrong assessement of the life of Muhammad to say that he did all this to be famous when at the time he was infamous because he was giving women a status they never had before and he was giving rights to slaves so people hated him for that. And these were not strangers that hated him, these were his own people whom he had grew up around including his own uncle.

 

Muslims don't need to deny that there are similarities between the bible and the quran because we believe they came from the same God. You musn't forget that there are many books out there that have similar stories that the bible has also.

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What would Muhammad pbuh have gained from lying? To be famous! The quraish offered Muhammad a high position amongst them and wealth so that he would stop denouncing their gods but he refused this. If he really wanted fame or wealth that was his perfect opportunity.

 

Motive is a tricky subject because different things motivate different humans. Some lie for no gain other than being able to do it, or because of some compulsion. Muhammad may have sincerely believed in monotheism, but at the same time, moving to Yathrib gave him many opportunities for expanding his wealth and renown, and he apparently capitalized on them. His life may have been simpler to our standards, but in the Hijaaz, he was a highly esteemed figure. I personally believe there is evidence that a negative preternatural element was involved with this experiences, but that is a controversial topic reserved for another occassion.

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This is the man you believe lied to gain wealth:

 

Narrated 'Uqba:

 

I offered the 'Asr prayer behind the Prophet at Medina. When he had finished the prayer with Taslim, he got up hurriedly and went out by crossing the rows of the people to one of the dwellings of his wives. The people got scared at his speed . The Prophet came back and found the people surprised at his haste and said to them, "I remembered a piece of gold Lying in my house and I did not like it to divert my attention from Allah's worship, so I have ordered it to be distributed (in charity)." (Sahih Bukhari Book #22, Hadith #312)

 

'Amrah Radiyallahu 'Anha reports that someone asked 'Aayeshah Radiyallahu 'Anha. "What was the usual practice of Rasulullah Sallallahu 'Alayhi Wasallam at home?" She replied: "He was a human from among other humans. He himself removed the lice from his clothing, milked his goats, and did all his work himself". ( Il Tirmidhi Book 46 No 13)

 

Ibn 'Abbaas Radiyallahu 'Anhu says:

"Rasulullah Sallallahu 'Alayhi Wasallam was the most generous among people in performing good deeds (No one could compare with him in generosity. He himself led a simple life, but in giving he would put a king to shame. At a time of great need a woman presented him a sheet, and he wore it as he was in need of it. A person came to him, and asked him for it, he presented the sheet to that person. Taking of loans and fulfilling the needs of others, when the creditors came, and if something had come from somewhere, he would pay the debts, and did not go home till everything was given to the needy. There exists many incidents of this nature, so much so that it is not possible to enumerate them). Particularly in the month of Ramadaan, he would be more generous till the month ended. (His generosity in this month exceeded all the other months). In this month when Jibra-eel 'Alayhis Salaam came and recited the Qur-aan to Rasulullah Sallallahu 'Alayhi Wasallam, at that time his generosity exceeded the wind that brings forth heavy rains".

( Il Tirmidhi Chapter 47 Number 11)

 

Narrated 'Abdur-Rahman bin Abu Bakr: We were one-hundred and thirty persons accompanying the Prophet who asked us whether anyone of us had food. There was a man who had about a Sa of wheat which was mixed with water then. A very tall pagan came driving sheep. The Prophet asked him, "Will you sell us (a sheep) or give it as a present?" He said, "I will sell you (a sheep)." The Prophet bought a sheep and it was slaughtered. The Prophet ordered that its liver and other abdominal organs be roasted. By Allah, the Prophet gave every person of the one-hundred-and-thirty a piece of that; he gave all those of them who were present; and kept the shares of those who were absent.The Prophet then put its meat in two huge basins and all of them ate to their fill, and even then more food was left in the two basins which were carried on the camel (or said something like it). (Sahih Bukhari Book 47 No. 787).

 

Also Allah revealed to the prophet the importance of charity - making it compulsory. Even his wives at times complained about the economic situation they faced. As I said previously Muhammad had a chance to gain wealth and status yet he denied it:

“O’ Muhammad, You are, as you know a noble from your tribe and your lineage assures you a place of honor. And now you have brought to your people a matter of grave concern, whereby you have split their community, declared their way of life to be foolish, spoken shamefully of their gods and religion and called their forefathers disbelievers. Listen to what I propose and see if any of it is acceptable to you. If it is wealth that you seek, we will gather our wealth and make you the richest amongst us. If you seek honor, we will make you our overlord and we will make no decision without your consent. If you seek Kingship, then we will make you our King. And if you can not get rid of this demon that appears to you, we will find you a physician and spend all our money until you are cured.”

(Life of the Prophet Muhammad, Ibn Hishaam)

 

Simak b. Barb reported: I heard Nu'man deliver an address in which he said that (Hadrat) Umar made a mention of what had fallen to the lot of people out of the material world and he said: I saw Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) spend the whole day being upset because of hunger and he could not get even an interior quality of dates with which he could fill his belly. (Sahih Muslim Book #042, Hadith #7101)

 

Aayeshah Radiyallahu 'Anha reports: "We the family of Muhammad Sallallahu 'Alayhi Wasallam did not light a fire for months in our homes. We sustained ourselves on dates and water" (Il Tirmidhi Book 50 hadith 004) [Commentry:They didn't light a fire because there was nothing to cook]

 

lbn 'Abbaas Radiyallahu 'Anhu reports that: "Rasulullah Sallallahu 'Alayhi Wasallam and his family spent many consecutive nights without food, because there would be no supper. The bread of Rasulullah Sallallahu 'Alayhi Wasallam was mostly made of barley". (Il Tirmidhi Book 25 Number 3)

 

Narrated 'Aisha: The family of Muhammad had not eaten wheat bread to their satisfaction for three consecutive days since his arrival at Medina till he died.(Sahih Muslim Book 93 No. 327)

 

Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allah be pleased with him) narrates: I visited Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he was lying on a mat. I sat down and he drew up his lower garment over him and he had nothing (else) over him, and that the mat had left its marks on his sides. I looked with my eyes in the storeroom of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). I found only a handful of barley equal to one sa' and an equal quantity of the leaves of Mimosa Flava placed in the nook of the cell, and a semi-tanned leather bag hanging (in one side), and I was moved to tears (on seeing this extremely austere living of the Holy Prophet), and he said: Ibn Khattab, what wakes you weep? I said: Apostle of Allah, why should I not shed tears? This mat has left its marks on your sides and I do not see in your storeroom (except these few things) that I have seen; Caesar and Chosroes are leading their lives in plenty whereas you are Allah's Messenger, His chosen one, and that is your store! He said: Ibn Khattab, aren't you satisfied that for us (there should be the prosperity) of the Hereafter, and for them (there should be the prosperity of) this world? I said: Yes. (Sahih Muslim, Book 009, Number 3507)

 

 

 

Narrated Abu Huraira: that he passed by a group of people in front of whom there was a roasted sheep. They invited him but he refused to eat and said, "Allah's Apostle left this world without satisfying his hunger even with barley bread." (Sahih Muslim book 92 No 325)

 

The prophet also was respected by his people but he also respected people and did not expect to be treated differently than others:

Anas bin Maalik Radiyallahu 'Anhu reports: "No one was more beloved to the Sahaabah than Rasulullah Sallallahu 'Alayhi Wasallam. When they saw him they did not stand up, knowing that he did not approve of it" ( il Tirmidhi Book 46 No 6 )

 

Muhammad was not concerned for worldly gains because he knew they are not important as faith in Allah. Through the hunger and hardships Muhammad knew better than anyone the importance of patience. He trusted in the word of Allah when Allah revealed the following:

Verily the Hereafter will be better for thee than the present (93:4)

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This is the man you believe lied to gain wealth:

 

It's a well known fact that there was a lot of controversy surrounding the inheritance of Muhammad's assets after his death. I'm not aware of a listing of how much he had, but it apparently included, significant portions of land, gold, silver, horses, camels, slaves, and concubines.

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It's a well known fact that there was a lot of controversy surrounding the inheritance of Muhammad's assets after his death. I'm not aware of a listing of how much he had, but it apparently included, significant portions of land, gold, silver, horses, camels, slaves, and concubines.

 

Give source before you make this type of claims. Some authoritative sources have been already presented here to refute your claims or rather lies.

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It's a well known fact that there was a lot of controversy surrounding the inheritance of Muhammad's assets after his death. I'm not aware of a listing of how much he had, but it apparently included, significant portions of land, gold, silver, horses, camels, slaves, and concubines.

As Saracen said list your sources. You have just come here and said stuff about the prophet pbuh without actually giving any sources. It is interesting that even with all those things you claim he left behind Muhammad pbuh died without satisfying his hunger. And as you said ''apparently'' you don't seem to be too sure of your sources yourself.

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It's a well known fact that there was a lot of controversy surrounding the inheritance of Muhammad's assets after his death. I'm not aware of a listing of how much he had, but it apparently included, significant portions of land, gold, silver, horses, camels, slaves, and concubines.

 

When he(pbuh) died, he had no slaves/concubines. Rest of what you said is untrue aswell, but would like to still see your "sources".

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As Saracen said list your sources. You have just come here and said stuff about the prophet pbuh without actually giving any sources. It is interesting that even with all those things you claim he left behind Muhammad pbuh died without satisfying his hunger. And as you said ''apparently'' you don't seem to be too sure of your sources yourself.

 

I'm surprised you're not aware of the controversy that surrounded Muhammad's inheritance. Fatima went to her grave hating Abu Bakr, and Ali burried her secretly so Abu Bakr could not attend the funeral. Obviously Muhammad had assets to be fought over, but according to Abu Bakr, Muhammad had said that he leaves no inheritors. I'll quote the sources, but like I said, there is no detail on the quantity of what he possessed, but merely that it was there:

 

"Fatimah asked Abu Bakr, “When you die who will inherit you?” He replied, “My children and relatives.” She said, “What is the justification of your becoming inheritor of the Prophet keeping us away?” He replied, “O daughter of the Apostle of Allah! I did not inherit your father’s land, gold, silver, slave, or property. She said, “The share of Allah (Khums i.e. one-fifth) which He has allotted to us and which is only our share, is in your hands.” Thereupon he replied, “I heard the Apostle of Allah saying, “It is the food that Allah makes me eat. When I die it will be distributed among the Muslims”

Ibn Sa'd, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir

 

The land mentioned appears to that of Fadak:

 

"Fatimah and al-Abbas came to Abu Bakr demanding their share of inheritance of the Messenger of God. They were demanding the Messenger of God’s land in Fadak and his share of Khaybar’s tribute. Abu Bakr replied, “I have heard the Messenger of God say, “Our, i.e. the prophets’ property cannot be inherited and whatever we leave behind is alms to be given in charity. The family of Muhammad will eat from it. (1) By God, I will not abandon a course which I saw the Messenger of god practicing, but will continue it accordingly. Fatimah shunned him and did not speak to him about it until she died. Ali buried her at night and did not permit Abu Bakr to attend her burial. While Fatimah was alive, Ali held respect among the people. After she died their attention turned away form him. A man asked al-Zuhri, “Did Ali not give his oath of allegiance for six months?” “No, nor anyone of the Banu Hashim until Ali rendered his,” he replied

Al-Tabari, History of Prophet and Kings

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I'm surprised you're not aware of the controversy that surrounded Muhammad's inheritance. Fatima went to her grave hating Abu Bakr, and Ali burried her secretly so Abu Bakr could not attend the funeral. Obviously Muhammad had assets to be fought over, but according to Abu Bakr, Muhammad had said that he leaves no inheritors. I'll quote the sources, but like I said, there is no detail on the quantity of what he possessed, but merely that it was there:

I am aware of these issues but like most things Muhammad pbuh had, he shared it among the community so the fact that his belongings were given as sadaqah is not a big deal. Families argue every year around the world with regards to inheritance over things that may not be considered of great signifigance so people arguing over inheritance. Even when my grandmother died her family argued for years over her watch - not because it was worth a lot of money but because it had sentimental value, so really families arguing about inheritance does not indicate the value of whats left behind.

 

You said Muhammad pbuh apparently had slaves, concubines, gold, silver etc so where are your sources for that? I already know he had land as I can show you too from authentic sources:

 

 

 

Narrated 'Amr bin Al-Harith: The Prophet did not leave anything behind him after his death except a white mule, his arms and a piece of land which he left to be given in charity. (Sahih Bukhari Book #52, Hadith #125)

 

Besides your sources don't show that Muhammad was wealthy - owning a bit of land isn't a big thing - as Umar had noted before they were aware that other leaders such as Ceaser were living in much wealthier surroundings yet Muhammad did not care for these things he was more interested in getting people to focus on God not wealth. Also if you have ever read the quran you will understand how much importance is laid on charity and how gaining wealth for profit is not encouraged. But clearly you know very little of the life of Muhammad and the message of Islam.

 

I have provided many sources that indicate the standard of living of Muhammad pbuh - and I think if anyone was wise enough they would not come to the conclusion that he lived a very simple life.

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I am aware of these issues but like most things Muhammad pbuh had, he shared it among the community so the fact that his belongings were given as sadaqah is not a big deal. Families argue every year around the world with regards to inheritance over things that may not be considered of great signifigance so people arguing over inheritance. Even when my grandmother died her family argued for years over her watch - not because it was worth a lot of money but because it had sentimental value, so really families arguing about inheritance does not indicate the value of whats left behind.

 

Where are your sources for the other things you claim he had ? I already know he had land as I can show you too from authentic sources:

 

 

Narrated 'Amr bin Al-Harith: The Prophet did not leave anything behind him after his death except a white mule, his arms and a piece of land which he left to be given in charity. (Sahih Bukhari Book #52, Hadith #125)

 

Besides your sources don't show that Muhammad was wealthy - owning a bit of land isn't a big thing - as Umar had noted before they were aware that other leaders such as Ceaser were living in much wealthier surroundings yet Muhammad did not care for these things he was more interested in getting people to focus on God not wealth. Also if you have ever read the quran you will understand how much importance is laid on charity and how gaining wealth for profit is not encouraged. But clearly you know very little of the life of Muhammad and the message of Islam.

 

I have provided many sources that indicate the standard of living of Muhammad pbuh - and I think if anyone was wise enough they would not come to the conclusion that he lived a very simple life.

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I'm surprised you're not aware of the controversy that surrounded Muhammad's inheritance. Fatima went to her grave hating Abu Bakr, and Ali burried her secretly so Abu Bakr could not attend the funeral. Obviously Muhammad had assets to be fought over, but according to Abu Bakr, Muhammad had said that he leaves no inheritors. I'll quote the sources, but like I said, there is no detail on the quantity of what he possessed, but merely that it was there:

 

"Fatimah asked Abu Bakr, “When you die who will inherit you?” He replied, “My children and relatives.” She said, “What is the justification of your becoming inheritor of the Prophet keeping us away?” He replied, “O daughter of the Apostle of Allah! I did not inherit your father’s land, gold, silver, slave, or property. She said, “The share of Allah (Khums i.e. one-fifth) which He has allotted to us and which is only our share, is in your hands.” Thereupon he replied, “I heard the Apostle of Allah saying, “It is the food that Allah makes me eat. When I die it will be distributed among the Muslims”

Ibn Sa'd, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir

 

The land mentioned appears to that of Fadak:

 

"Fatimah and al-Abbas came to Abu Bakr demanding their share of inheritance of the Messenger of God. They were demanding the Messenger of God’s land in Fadak and his share of Khaybar’s tribute. Abu Bakr replied, “I have heard the Messenger of God say, “Our, i.e. the prophets’ property cannot be inherited and whatever we leave behind is alms to be given in charity. The family of Muhammad will eat from it. (1) By God, I will not abandon a course which I saw the Messenger of god practicing, but will continue it accordingly. Fatimah shunned him and did not speak to him about it until she died. Ali buried her at night and did not permit Abu Bakr to attend her burial. While Fatimah was alive, Ali held respect among the people. After she died their attention turned away form him. A man asked al-Zuhri, “Did Ali not give his oath of allegiance for six months?” “No, nor anyone of the Banu Hashim until Ali rendered his,” he replied

Al-Tabari, History of Prophet and Kings

 

None of these references were adequately given. First one has no chapter name, page number. Second one also inadequate. And you need to prove that these are authentic. These narrations can not go against Sahih collection (Bukhari and Muslim). And even in these narrations it showed nothing against the fact that how simple his (PBUH) life was compared to other emperors of the Earth that had lived in the earth. You are assuming a lot here. But a quote from Bukhari (and other authoritative sources) was given by sister PL to refute those assumptions you made here.

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None of these references were adequately given. First one has no chapter name, page number. Second one also inadequate. And you need to prove that these are authentic. These narrations can not go against Sahih collection (Bukhari and Muslim). And even in these narrations it showed nothing against the fact that how simple his (PBUH) life was compared to other emperors of the Earth that had lived in the earth. You are assuming a lot here. But a quote from Bukhari (and other authoritative sources) was given by sister PL to refute those assumptions you made here.

 

First I see nothing wrong with possessing assets, so I don't take it against Muhammad that he had possessions. What I was responding to was this image of Muhammad being painted, as if he took a vow of poverty. Clearly he had significant assets that were heavily disputed upon his passing, to the point that it caused severe animosities among some of the sahaba. You can dispute the narratives of Ibn Sa'd and Al-Tabari, though I consider them competant scholars, and seriously doubt they would invent material, especially if it cast Muhammad in a negative light. Muhammad was acting as a prophet for some 26 years if memory serves right, and in that expansive time I'm sure there were periods where he experienced poverty and difficulty. The last few years of the Mekkan period harken to such a time, and it may be that the quotations from Bukhari and Muslim are related to similar moments. But I don't believe that they are in contradiction to what Ibn Sa'd or Al Tabari mentioned. As for the passages themselves, I apologize for not finding the exact reference. You guys are welcome to disregard what I quoted, all I will say is that I did not make them up.

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The fact is you came here and started to claim all these things saying that Muhammad capitalised on opportunities to expand his own wealth and yet you cannot even show evidence of what you claimed. Where's all those horses you claim he had and concubines? You definitely did not show evidence that Muhammad pbuh 'had signifcant assets'. Compared to other leaders of his time he was nothing compared to them with regards to wealth. Also you completely disregard all the evidence I gave - also you disregard the emphasis laid upon charity and that whatever Muhammad did receive he spent it - he did not hoard it for himself.

 

It is better for people that before they speak about something they don't know that they go and do research before claiming lies.

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I don't believe Muhammad was a prophet.

...

Cheers

 

One of the most illogical posts I've seen on this forum.

 

I believe that all Muhammad did was steal things out of the Bible and twist them around to make himself look like he had divine revelations from the Angel Gabriel.

 

How could the Prophet steal from the Bible if he could not read?

 

There is a theory that the Prophet had come into contact with a Christian, and learnt the Bible from him, but the theory has been largely debunked.

 

http://www.islamweb....icles&id=134204

 

Muhammad never talks about all the Miracles that Jesus worked which clearly show that Jesus was more than just a prophet of God.

 

If this was so, then these verses, explicitly stating the miracles of Jesus (alayhis salam) in the Quran would not have been revealed to the Prophet.

 

“When the disciples said: O Jesus, son of Mary! Is your Lord able to send down for us a table spread with food from heaven? He said: Observe your duty to God, if ye are true believers. They said: We desire to eat of it and our hearts be at rest, and that We may know that you have spoken truth to us, and that We may be witnesses thereof. Jesus, son of Mary, said: 'O God, our Lord, send down for us a Table laden with food out of heaven, that shall be for us a recurring festival, the first and last of us, and a miracle from You. And provide us our sustenance, for You are the best of providers!” (Quran 5:112-114)

 

“He shall speak to people while still in the cradle, and in manhood, and he shall be from the righteous.” (Quran 3:46)

 

As a messenger to the Children of israel: "I come to you with a sign from your Lord—I create for you from clay the shape of a bird, then I blow into it, and it becomes a live bird by GOD's leave. I restore vision to the blind, heal the leprous, and I revive the dead by GOD's leave. I can tell you what you eat, and what you store in your homes. This should be a proof for you, if you are believers. (Quran 3:49)

 

(The miracle of changing the form of clay into a bird is not mentioned in the New Testament, but mentioned in the Infancy Gospel of Thomas)

 

The miracles of prophets before Jesus and Muhammad, (peace be upon them), which can be found in the Quran, are mentioned here: http://www.questions...mentioned-quran

 

The miracles of Prophet Muhammad can be read here: http://sunnah.org/hi..._of_Prophet.htm

 

The Bible warns of false prophets who are wolves in sheeps clothing. And this is exactly what Muhammad was. Muhammad was the so-called " seal " of the prophets, and if Jesus was nothing more than a prophet (just like Muhammad), then how come Jesus worked Miracles and Muhammad didn't ?

 

As mentioned in the link above, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did perform miracles. One of them was the splitting of the moon. Another was the multiplying of food and water to help feed the poor.

 

Seek knowledge before you speak.

 

Seems like everything else in the Bible is OK to Muhammad except for Jesus being the Son of God. Doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Then again, Muhammad had to change some things up to make it appear as if he really was a prophet who had new divine revelation. If he didn't do that, all Muhammad would have done was repeat the exact same stories that are in the Bible which wouldn't make him look like a prophet at all. Really easy to see through rubbish if you really use your mind.

 

All the Prophets say the same thing, to worship God, and to tell people to follow his commandments.

 

There are many contradictions in The Bible when it comes to the divinity of Jesus. There are also suggestions that the Bible foretells the coming of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) I suggest you do some real research on the subject, instead of coming with wild theories from thin air.

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I'm surprised you're not aware of the controversy that surrounded Muhammad's inheritance. Fatima went to her grave hating Abu Bakr, and Ali burried her secretly so Abu Bakr could not attend the funeral. Obviously Muhammad had assets to be fought over, but according to Abu Bakr, Muhammad had said that he leaves no inheritors.

 

We know there was a dispute amongst the Muslims about Fadak. But the dispute started off because the two sides felt they felt they were both carrying out the Prophet's wishes, and it was in their eyes, their best intentions to honour what the Prophet said. It later became a political issue for the Muslims. But it was not for material wealth as you seem to imply. Because if so, the future owners of the land did not gain much income from it.

 

Let me ask you, did the Prophet derive any income from this land? Did he grow crops there and sell it to the people? How did the Prophet spend his money? Was it solely for material wealth, or was it for charity?

 

If he had some personal belongings or property with him, would this disqualify him as a Prophet?

 

You also mentioned that the Prophet took a vow of poverty? Can I ask where you read such a thing?

 

Come back to us when you've gathered enough knowledge about this.

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Was Wealth A Motive For the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) To Fabricate Islam?

 

By

 

Bassam Zawadi

 

 

There are those that try to claim that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) might have possibly had wealth as a motive to fabricate Islam and his Prophethood.

However, when one examines the life of the Prophet (peace be upon him) one would see that this does not seem at all to be plausible.

One argument that opponents put forth is the fact that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) had several houses and they would quote Surah 33:53 in order to demonstrate this. However, just because one has several houses this does not necessarily imply that the houses are luxurious or are filled with luxurious possessions.

The Prophet's house was not built of any precious stones just like the Kings of the past:

Nearby, rooms reserved for the Prophet's household were built of stones and adobe bricks with ceilings of palm leaves. [bukhari 1/71,555,560; Za'd Al-Ma'ad 2/56], cited here)

Umar ibn Al Khattab (arguably, the second greatest companion of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and is also the second caliph after Abu Bakr) states that:

 

 

Saheeh Muslim

 

 

Book 009, Number 3507

 

I visited Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he was lying on a mat. I sat down and he drew up his lower garment over him and he had nothing (else) over him, and that the mat had left its marks on his sides. I looked with my eyes in the storeroom of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). I found only a handful of barley equal to one sa' and an equal quantity of the leaves of Mimosa Flava placed in the nook of the cell, and a semi-tanned leather bag hanging (in one side), and I was moved to tears (on seeing this extremely austere living of the Holy Prophet), and he said: Ibn Khattab, what wakes you weep?

 

I said: Apostle of Allah, why should I not shed tears? This mat has left its marks on your sides and I do not see in your storeroom (except these few things) that I have seen; Caesar and Chosroes are leading their lives in plenty whereas you are Allah's Messenger. His chosen one, and that is your store! He said: Ibn Khattab, aren't you satisfied that for us (there should be the prosperity) of the Hereafter, and for them (there should be the prosperity of) this world? I said: Yes.

 

 

So here we observe that the Prophet (peace be upon him) definitely did not live in a palace nor slept on luxurious beds.

 

Others argue that Allah made the Prophet (peace be upon him) wealthy through conquests and they put forth the following narration:

 

Saheeh Bukhari

Volume 3, Book 37, Number 495

 

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Whenever a dead man in debt was brought to Allah's Apostle he would ask, "Has he left anything to repay his debt?" If he was informed that he had left something to repay his debts, he would offer his funeral prayer, otherwise he would tell the Muslims to offer their friend's funeral prayer. When Allah made the Prophet wealthy through conquests, he said, "I am more rightful than other believers to be the guardian of the believers, so if a Muslim dies while in debt, I am responsible for the repayment of his debt, and whoever leaves wealth (after his death) it will belong to his heirs."

 

 

They would also state that the Qur'an says that the Prophet would receive a fifth of the war booty and cite verses from the Qur'an such as Surah 8, Verses 1 and 41.

 

However, as we can see the Prophet (peace be upon him) did not take this money in order to live luxuriously. He used to take that money and give it away in charity instead of keeping it for himself. (See Saheeh Bukhari, Volume 4, Book of One-fifth of Booty to the Cause of Allah, Hadith number 326, where Umar ibn Al Khattab says "So this property was especially given to Allah's Apostle, but, by Allah, neither did he take possession of it and leave your, nor did he favour himself with it to your exclusion, but he gave it to all of you and distributed it amongst you till this property remained out of it. Allah's Apostle used to spend the yearly expenses of his family out of this property and used to keep the rest of its revenue to be spent on Allah's Cause. Allah's Apostle kept on doing this during all his lifetime.")

 

The Prophet (peace be upon him) would use whatever wealth was necessary in order to take care of his family. Now one may argue that the Prophet (peace be upon him) used this (i.e. fabricating Islam) as a means to take care of himself and family.

 

However, this doesn't seem to be very convincing. Couldn't the Prophet (peace be upon him) find an easier way to earn a living? Why did he go through years of persecution in Mecca and endure humiliation and ruin his reputation amongst his friends and relatives for this purpose?

 

The Prophet (peace be upon him) used to actually be wealthy before his Prophethood (while he was trading with his wife Khadija). Thus, why the need to fabricate a religion?

 

Also, the Meccans offered the Prophet (peace be upon him) wealth and fame in return for him to stop preaching Islam, but he refused. To this offer he replied:

 

 

By Allah, if they put the sun on my right and the moon on my left to leave this matter, I would not, until Allah shows me otherwise or I die trying for its sake. (Ibn Hisham, As-Sirah an-Nabawiyyah, Volume 1, page 265)

 

 

If his motive really was for wealth then he would have taken the deal.

 

Also, it's not like the Prophet (peace be upon him) and his wives were living luxuriously:

 

 

Saheeh Muslim

 

Volume 7, Number 324

 

Narrated Abu Hazim:

 

I asked Sahl bin Sad, "Did Allah's Apostle ever eat white flour?" Sahl said, "Allah's Apostle never saw white flour since Allah sent him as an Apostle till He took him unto Him." I asked, "Did the people have (use) sieves during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle?" Sahl said, "Allah's Apostle never saw (used) a sieve since Allah sent him as an Apostle until He took him unto Him," I said, "How could you eat barley unsifted?" he said, "We used to grind it and then blow off its husk, and after the husk flew away, we used to prepare the dough (bake) and eat it."

 

Book 024, Number 5185:

 

A'isha reported that the pillow on which Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) reclined was of leather stuffed with palm fibre. (See also Saheeh Bukhari, Volume 8, Book Pertaining to Making the Heart Tender, Hadith number 463)

 

 

Despite his responsibilities as a prophet, a teacher, a statesman, and a judge, Muhammad (peace be upon him) used to milk his goat, mend his clothes, repair his shoes, help with the household work, (Musnad Ahmad, Hadith number 23606 and declared authentic by Shaykh Albani in Saheeh Al Jaami', Hadith number 4937)

 

Opponents would cite the following verse from the Qur'an:

Surah 93:6-8

Did He not find you (O Muhammad (Peace be upon him)) an orphan and gave you a refuge? And He found you unaware (of the Qur'an, its legal laws, and Prophethood, etc.) and guided you? And He found you poor, and made you rich?

 

They would then argue that this refers shows that Allah made the Prophet (peace be upon him) wealthy.

However, we have to put into consideration that this Surah was revealed early in Mecca and that is why Ibn Abbass was of the opinion:

And he also said: (Did He not find thee) O Muhammad (destitute) poor (and enrich (thee)) with the wealth of Khadijah; and it is also said this means: and made you content with that which He gave you? The Prophet (pbuh) said: "Yes, O Gabriel!" (Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ?Abbâs, Commentary on Surah 93:8, Source)

 

The Prophet (peace be upon him) married Khadija who was wealthy. However, the Prophet married Khadija way before he became a Prophet. So it's not like the Prophet (peace be upon him) used Islam to gain wealth.

Or it could simply mean that Allah made him rich in a spiritual sense:

 

And Ibn Attaa' said: And He found you poor in spirit, so He enriched your heart. (Abu 'Abdullah Al-Qurtubi, Tasfir al Jami' li-ahkam al-Qur'an, Commentary on Surah 93:8, Source)

 

 

Furthermore, the Prophet (peace be upon him) could have easily stolen the goods of the Meccan Kuffar that he had in his possession (since one of his jobs was being a caretaker of people's goods) while migrating to Medinah. Rather, he ensured that their property was fully returned to them despite their ill treatment of him. (This also goes to show how the Kuffar still trusted him with their property even though they accused him of fabricating Islam):

 

 

On the night of the Hijrah, Muhammad confided his plan to 'Ali ibn Abu Talib and asked him to cover himself with the Prophet's green mantle from Hadramawt and to sleep in the Prophet's bed. He further asked him to tarry in Makkah until he had returned all things left with Muhammad to their rightful owners. (Muhammad Husayn Haykal, The Life of Muhammad, Chapter: Al Hijrah or the Prophet's Emigration, Source)

 

 

This event is also recorded by Al-Bayhaqî in As-Sunan Al-Kubrâ Volume 6, page289 and Sheikh Al-Albânî declared it to authentic (hasan) in Erwaa Al Ghaleel, Hadith no.1546.

 

In conclusion, the argument that money could have been a motive for the Prophet (peace be upon him) to fabricate Islam does not really hold any water. If he was really in it for the money then we would expect to have seen him living a lavish life, yet this is far from reality. Just because the Prophet (peace be upon him) had much wealth in his possession, that doesn't mean that he spent it on himself. Rather, he used it for the benefit of society (e.g. helping orphans).

 

 

http://www.call-to-m...bricate_islam_

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The Prophet(pbuh) never left inheritance behind. This is well known and there is a consensus amongst the scholars. What you are talking about is Shia's arguement to say that the Prophets do leave inheritance behind, but we do not accept Shia's sources or their claims. Don't really have time to go into details, but it should be said that you're completly and utterly wrong.

 

“We do not leave inheritance. What we leave behind is charity.” (Sahih Muslim, Kitab al-Jihad was-Siyar, no. 49)

 

“We, the Prophets, do not leave heirs.” (Musnad Ahmad, vol. 2 p. 462)

 

“What we leave behind is to become alms.” (Hadith ash-Shafi)

Edited by Perseveranze

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I don't believe Muhammad was a prophet. In my honest opinion, I believe that all Muhammad did was steal things out of the Bible and twist them around to make himself look like he had divine revelations from the Angel Gabriel. Muhammad never talks about all the Miracles that Jesus worked which clearly show that Jesus was more than just a prophet of God. The Bible warns of false prophets who are wolves in sheeps clothing. And this is exactly what Muhammad was. Muhammad was the so-called " seal " of the prophets, and if Jesus was nothing more than a prophet (just like Muhammad), then how come Jesus worked Miracles and Muhammad didn't ? I think Muhammad had an above average IQ for his time and wanted to deceive people into following him ( so he could be famous ) so he created this cult known as Islam. If it wasn't for the Bible the Koran wouldn't exist, simple as that. Seems like everything else in the Bible is OK to Muhammad except for Jesus being the Son of God. Doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Then again, Muhammad had to change some things up to make it appear as if he really was a prophet who had new divine revelation. If he didn't do that, all Muhammad would have done was repeat the exact same stories that are in the Bible which wouldn't make him look like a prophet at all. Really easy to see through rubbish if you really use your mind.

 

Cheers

 

Miracles Proves nothing mate , and thats according to Jesus from the very verse you quoted of false prophets in where he states that the false prophets can perform miracles :) , so if false prophets can perform miracles then what does it count ? .

 

However if you see the Holy Quran you see the greatest miracle of ultimate perfection , and not like the earthly man made bible.

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Salaam alaiykum,

 

bismillah ar rahmnir rahim

 

[at] Andrew Brown:

 

I know where you are coming from. At one point I thought as you do. There is some logical flaws with what you are saying though. First, of all, the Bible was not readily available as it is now. If you know about Christianity then you know that at the point in question the Bible was limited to the church and was only available in Latin as that was the language that they preferred up in Rome. Are you claiming that an illiterate man was able to read the Bible? That is funny. Or are you trying to say that he heard the stories of the Bible and managed to memorize them and repeat them? That is quite a feat. There was very few that had the kind of knowledge you are trying to credit the prophet with.

 

If you want to speak about using your mind you must understand that there is more to it than just looking at the two books. Not only must you look at the Bible and the Qur'an but you must also think of the time period and know the history of what was going on at the time in order to understand it all. What you are trying to claim is so common it has been used since the twentieth century. But, if you look back to the time of his revelation you will find that the enemies of Islam never made this claim and do not think that the prophet was without Christian enemies. If it was as you claim and just a rinse and repeat so to speak do you not think that the Christians of his era would have seen that?

 

Now that we have gone over the illogical stance let us consider some basic logic on the Qur'an itself. Would you, if you were just a smart person, dictate a book chapter by chapter and have verses in it that chastise you? Yet, the Qur'an chastises the prophet and even tells us that he is just a man. I know all the miracles of Jesus (pbuh) personally as someone that grew up in the Bible and was a die hard Christian to the core and I can tell you truthfully that the miracles of Jesus (pbuh) was performed before him by previous prophets. Ishmael (pbuh) rose the dead, fed the hungry, healed the diseased (any of these sound familiar?). The greatest mircale of Isa (pbuh) was not his miracles but his birth.

 

In closing the Qur'an speaks of your kind and it responds to it as well. It challenges those who would doubt it to produce a surah like it.

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