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Richard Dawkins, What He Did Fail To Answer?

Failure of Former RDF .  

8 members have voted

  1. 1. Why did the former Richard Dawkins Forum fail?

    • 1- He cannot answer the essential questions about atheism.
      1
    • 2- Atheism lacks the real objective for the human life.
      3
    • 3- Lack of courage to face the challenge from Islamic belief.
      0
    • 4- Financial problems.
      0
    • 5- Administrative problems
      1
    • 6- All of the above
      1
    • 7- Non of the above.
      2


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Suppose there is a god who is watching us and choosing which souls of the deceased to bring to heaven, and this god really does want only the morally good to populate heaven. He will probably select from only those who made a significant and responsible effort to discover the truth. For all others are untrustworthy, being cognitively or morally inferior, or both. They will also be less likely ever to discover and commit to true beliefs about right and wrong.

 

That is, if they have a significant and trustworthy concern for doing right and avoiding wrong, it follows necessarily that they must have a significant and trustworthy concern for knowing right and wrong. Since this knowledge requires knowledge about many fundamental facts of the universe (such as whether there is a god), it follows necessarily that such people must have a significant and trustworthy concern for always seeking out, testing, and confirming that their beliefs about such things are probably correct. Therefore, only such people can be sufficiently moral and trustworthy to deserve a place in heaven — unless God wishes to fill heaven with the morally lazy, irresponsible, or untrustworthy

 

Richard Carrier

The truth being Islam.

What you consider bad and what Allah considers bad as described in the Quran are very different I'd bet.

What you consider moral is different than what is described in the Quran.

 

Edit:

very good that you know Pascal

Edited by Skenderbeu

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The truth being Islam.

 

Evidence is needed

 

What you consider bad and what Allah considers bad as described in the Quran are very different I'd bet.

What you consider moral is different than what is described in the Quran.

 

I'm not sure what God considers bad. A lot of people seem to claim to know the will of God and produce opposing and conflicting ideas or do things in the name of God that are positively immoral and claim that we must accept their actions as moral and right.

 

Edit:

very good that you know Pascal

 

Unfortunately, Pascal had an excuse for his shameless charlatanism, or at least a weak excuse. He was a mathematician of probability and game theory. Those without such a background who propose such a wager as a proposition for the unbelieving are snake oil salesman.

Edited by xocoti

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Evidence is needed

I'm not sure what God considers bad. A lot of people seem to claim to know the will of God and produce opposing and conflicting ideas or do things in the name of God that are positively immoral and claim that we must accept their actions as moral and right.

Unfortunately, Pascal had an excuse for his shameless charlatanism, or at least a weak excuse. He was a mathematician of probability and game theory. Those without such a background who propose such a wager as a proposition for the unbelieving are snake oil salesman.

I'm sure it is what is described in the Quran. How do I know this is true? The various reasons that I know the Quran is from God. But that requires another topic.

Show me what is immoral with the teachings of Islam, You cant judge a religion by its adherents but rather what message and holy book it has.

I don't know what you mean by the last one but statistically it seems believing is a better choice.

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I'm sure it is what is described in the Quran. How do I know this is true? The various reasons that I know the Quran is from God. But that requires another topic.

Indeed it does.

 

Show me what is immoral with the teachings of Islam, You cant judge a religion by its adherents but rather what message and holy book it has.

 

You are at a meeting when men bust into your meeting and pull guns on you. They give you three options, die, pay them money, or join them in offering these option to other people. Now we know that the person being asked these questions doesn't face a moral choice, but what about those making the offer.

 

I don't know what you mean by the last one but statistically it seems believing is a better choice.

 

Believing in what? Islam? Christianity?Hindism? Because it seems that believing in God isn't enough to have heaven you have to pick the correct one or else it is hell for you.

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Indeed it does.

You are at a meeting when men bust into your meeting and pull guns on you. They give you three options, die, pay them money, or join them in offering these option to other people. Now we know that the person being asked these questions doesn't face a moral choice, but what about those making the offer.

What does this have to do with God or Islam

Believing in what? Islam? Christianity?Hindism? Because it seems that believing in God isn't enough to have heaven you have to pick the correct one or else it is hell for you.

Then you go from belief in God and break it down further until you find the truth within religions. Which in this case would be which one is the uncorrupted word of God.

 

Also brother I would like to add that Islam teaches whoever follows the tenements of their religion and believes in God will enter heaven.

Edited by Skenderbeu

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You are at a meeting when men bust into your meeting and pull guns on you. They give you three options, die, pay them money, or join them in offering these option to other people. Now we know that the person being asked these questions doesn't face a moral choice, but what about those making the offer.

 

What does this have to do with God or Islam

 

Islam encourages or encouraged ( depending how liberal your views are ) that behavior in its adherents.

 

Believing in what? Islam? Christianity?Hindism? Because it seems that believing in God isn't enough to have heaven you have to pick the correct one or else it is hell for you.

 

Then you go from belief in God and break it down further until you find the truth within religions. Which in this case would be which one is the uncorrupted word of God.

 

Sorry, that isn't how it works, the deist benign God of Pascal is vastly different religion of Islam, Christianity, the Jewish faith or Hinduism. All those sects don't just require a benign belief as Pascal's wager implies but an adoption of a positive moral code with posits about the world around them.

Edited by xocoti

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Also brother I would like to add that Islam teaches whoever follows the tenements of their religion and believes in God will enter heaven.

 

:sl:

 

Akhi, are you saying those who follow a religion other than Islam will enter Paradise?

 

"This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion". (Soorah Al-Maa'idah 5:3)

 

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah (God) never will It be accepted of Him" (Soorah Aal'imraan 3:85)

Edited by Orthodox

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Islam encourages or encouraged ( depending how liberal your views are ) that behavior in its adherents.

Sorry, that isn't how it works, the deist benign God of Pascal is vastly different religion of Islam, Christianity, the Jewish faith or Hinduism. All those sects don't just require a benign belief as Pascal's wager implies but an adoption of a positive moral code with posits about the world around them.

 

I have not read this topic save this post. Please do not lecture us our religion. Manners in Islam are actually very important. And what do you mean by "religion of Islam?"

Edited by Orthodox

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I have not read this topic save this post. Please do not lecture us our religion.

 

Manners in Islam are actually very important. And what do you mean by "religion of Islam?"

 

Then I would gently ask that you not be so arrogant to claim to enter a conversation mid sentence and demand various things while boasting of not following the conversation. Please use those manners and read the whole thread before commenting. Thank you.

Edited by xocoti

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Then I would gently ask that you not be so arrogant to claim to enter a conversation mid sentence and demand various things while boasting of not following the conversation. Please use those manners and read the whole thread before commenting. Thank you.

It's asking for a clarification, not demanding. There is a difference. No one was boasting. Ask for a clarafication before accusing, thanks.

Edited by Orthodox

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It's asking for a clarification, not demanding. There is a difference. No one was boasting. Ask for a clarafication before accusing, thanks.

No problem. The religion of Islam as the way of life of Islam, submission, following Shariah, give it whatever name you want to. The same with Christianity, Hinduism, Scientology, Mormonism, Satanism, etc. all of which posit moral beliefs to be followed and most if not all posit ideas about the way the world is. None of these are included in Pascal's wager. Pascal's wager talks about simple belief in an nebulous non specific God without any moral code nor posits about the world. Hence, to say jump from it is better to believe in the God mentioned in Pascal's wager to not to It is better to believe in X religion or not are very different assertions depending on the religion. This is in addition to the whole idea that Pascal's wager reduces God from a being who cares about convictions and evidence of truth to the "house" in a betting game. Pascal's wager isn't used anymore for good reason. The wiki page is instructive if some basic reasons why if they are wanted.

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No problem. The religion of Islam as the way of life of Islam, submission, following Shariah, give it whatever name you want to. The same with Christianity, Hinduism, Scientology, Mormonism, Satanism, etc. all of which posit moral beliefs to be followed and most if not all posit ideas about the way the world is. None of these are included in Pascal's wager. Pascal's wager talks about simple belief in an nebulous non specific God without any moral code nor posits about the world. Hence, to say jump from it is better to believe in the God mentioned in Pascal's wager to not to It is better to believe in X religion or not are very different assertions depending on the religion. This is in addition to the whole idea that Pascal's wager reduces God from a being who cares about convictions and evidence of truth to the "house" in a betting game. Pascal's wager isn't used anymore for good reason. The wiki page is instructive if some basic reasons why if they are wanted.

 

Salam, I have to agree,from a Muslim stand point and POV that is,, but I somehow disagree that the wager is not applicable for Atheists. Let me explain..

From a Muslim perspective, the belief that there is a Creator, that human will be resurrected and judged accordingly is absolute, hence there is not even a wager to begin with. Muslims believe that this world is only temporary,death is the beginning of another journey and they will get to see the pious among their loved ones again.

 

Since you believe none of the above, then you have to accept that the Muslims death is a lot more 'pleasing' than yours. At the moment of your death, you believe that you are leaving everything behind, all your wealth, loved ones, you'll never get to see them ever again, etc. This is the case if you happenned to be right..You already know what would happen if you're wrong.. The point being, you would lose both ways..

Edited by RAHIMI

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Salam, I have to agree,from a Muslim stand point and POV that is,, but I somehow disagree that the wager is not applicable for Atheists. Let me explain..

From a Muslim perspective, the belief that there is a Creator, that human will be resurrected and judged accordingly is absolute, hence there is not even a wager to begin with. Muslims believe that this world is only temporary,death is the beginning of another journey and they will get to see the pious among their loved ones again.

 

Since you believe none of the above, then you have to accept that the Muslims death is a lot more 'pleasing' than yours. At the moment of your death, you believe that you are leaving everything behind, all your wealth, loved ones, you'll never get to see them ever again, etc. This is the case if you happenned to be right..You already know what would happen if you're wrong.. The point being, you would lose both ways..

 

You miss the point though. Islam isn't unique in life after death in fact almost all religions have some form of it or another. This makes Islam non unique and makes it is perfectly fine to believe any religion or anything so long as it gives you comfort in death. Again it is irrelevant because religions aren't just a belief in life after death they come with a lot more things "attached" that must be believed in order to receive is comfort of having life after death or at least a life that isn't torture for eternity.

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You miss the point though. Islam isn't unique in life after death in fact almost all religions have some form of it or another. This makes Islam non unique and makes it is perfectly fine to believe any religion or anything so long as it gives you comfort in death. Again it is irrelevant because religions aren't just a belief in life after death they come with a lot more things "attached" that must be believed in order to receive is comfort of having life after death or at least a life that isn't torture for eternity.

 

I have to agree again, people can claim many things but what EVIDENCE do they have to back up their claims? The fact that many people claim the same thing does not mean every single one of them is wrong..

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I do not mean to be rude. This is, a waste of time. He is a philosopher. He does believe there is a way to live. That there is a moral code to follow.

 

Again it is irrelevant because religions aren't just a belief in life after death they come with a lot more things "attached" that must be believed in order to receive is comfort of having life after death or at least a life that isn't torture for eternity.
If you do not practice what you believe, then that lacks belief. There really is nothing a person truly believs in yet doesn't act according to his or her believs?

 

There is a wisdom behind our believs.

Edited by Orthodox

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I have to agree again, people can claim many things but what EVIDENCE do they have to back up their claims? The fact that many people claim the same thing does not mean every single one of them is wrong..

Well that is the essence of why Pascal's wager is wrong. Pascal's wager claims that mere belief in God is beneficial, and doesn't bother to ask about " the truth" or evidence or what is correct. If you want to say Islam is correct and therefor believing in Islam is more beneficial than non belief that is your initiative, but that isn't asking for mere belief but an acceptance of a specific list of rights and wrongs, scientific claims, and political view points.

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I do not mean to be rude. This is, a waste of time. He is a philosopher. He does believe there is a way to live. That there is a moral code to follow.

 

If you do not practice what you believe, then that lacks belief. There really is nothing a person truly believs in yet doesn't act according to his or her believs?

 

There is a wisdom behind our believs.

I am aware of that, but Pascal's wager which is what we are talking about doesn't posit a specific belief system. It states mere belief. If you want to say belief in Islam is beneficial that is fine, but it isn't Pascal's wager. Pascal's wager's God is a God that doesn't care about conviction of belief nor action nor specifically which belief system you adhere to, nor proving itself correct or even if there is a God or not.

Edited by xocoti

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Well that is the essence of why Pascal's wager is wrong. Pascal's wager claims that mere belief in God is beneficial, and doesn't bother to ask about " the truth" or evidence or what is correct.

 

Well, to tell the truth, I don't even know who this pascal guy is, I know what Las Vegas is..

So do you agree or not, that the moment of death for the Atheists would be a lot more unpleasant than that of the believers?

 

.., but that isn't asking for mere belief but an acceptance of a specific list of rights and wrongs, scientific claims, and political view points.

 

Obviously so...so how do you arrive to the actual what is right and wrong? Do you somehow figure it out based on consensus or what?

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Well, to tell the truth, I don't even know who this pascal guy is, I know what Las Vegas is..

So do you agree or not, that the moment of death for the Atheists would be a lot more unpleasant than that of the believers?

 

No one has come back from the dead to tell me if believing or not believing made a difference. I am sure that a believer of some afterlife would find it more conforting than not believing in one, depending on where one believes they are going. I found in my own near death experiences that the blackness comes irregardless of belief, sometimes without even the mercy of letting me contemplate on if belief made a difference or not.

 

 

 

 

Obviously so...so how do you arrive to the actual what is right and wrong? Do you somehow figure it out based on consensus or what?

How does anyone arrive at what right or wrong is?

Edited by xocoti

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No one has come back from the dead to tell me if believing or not believing made a difference.

 

Perhaps I did not make myself clear enough, ponder upon death

for a good few minutes, now answer the question, do you agree or not agree that death is more unpleasant for the Atheists than to the believers.? It is simple enough question..

 

To conclude that there is no afterlife based the fact that noone has ever comes back from the death to tell us the whole story is irrational. We can establsh facts based on reason and observation. Let me ask you a question, do you have a set of greatXXX grandparents from say 1000 years ago? Of course you do, otherwise you and your parents and theirs parents would be here. Noone ever seen, heard or talked to these greatXXX grandparents of yours.. the point is, we can establish fact using reasons...

 

How does anyone arrive at what right or wrong is?

 

For Muslims that would be what is commanded by Allah based on His words in the Quran and as taught by His Prophets..

The west used to say killing unborn children was wrong, now they are saying it is OK, both can't be right..The golden rule for the Nazis were killing people of other races, who are you to say they were wrong?

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:sl:

 

Akhi, are you saying those who follow a religion other than Islam will enter Paradise?

 

"This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion". (Soorah Al-Maa'idah 5:3)

 

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah (God) never will It be accepted of Him" (Soorah Aal'imraan 3:85)

Only those who have heard the message of the prophet Muhammad and still do not accept Islam will enter hellfire as far as I know. Those of other religions who have had no chance to hear about Islam will not be punished as far as I know sister.

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Only those who have heard the message of the prophet Muhammad and still do not accept Islam will enter hellfire as far as I know. Those of other religions who have had no chance to hear about Islam will not be punished as far as I know sister.

:sl:

 

P.S. We do not know if they will be punished or not. They will be tested on the judgement day. Increase your posts!

 

I thought you were referring to that one verse that talks about those who followed the right teachings of the Prophets [pbut], during their time. Many people use that verse to show that anyone who follows any religion and as long as they believe in God, will be saved from punishment.

Edited by Orthodox

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Islam encourages or encouraged ( depending how liberal your views are ) that behavior in its adherents.

show me verses in the Quran to back up your statement.

Sorry, that isn't how it works, the deist benign God of Pascal is vastly different religion of Islam, Christianity, the Jewish faith or Hinduism. All those sects don't just require a benign belief as Pascal's wager implies but an adoption of a positive moral code with posits about the world around them.

I'm quite aware of Pascal's deist beliefs, and yes Pascal's wager still applies. The involvement of God does not change anything and his wager still applies that God is the better bet. His wager also does not require a benign belief. Keep in mind this wager is only for the existent of God not for which religion is right so don't use it for a reason it is not meant to be used for.

 

Yes sister they will be tested in the afterlife, but they will not be punished for their belief here on earth.

I cannot read arabic can you translate what that says please.

Edited by Skenderbeu

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Yes sister they will be tested in the afterlife, but they will not be punished for their belief here on earth.

I cannot read arabic can you translate what that says please.

 

JazzakAlalhu Khayr means May Allah reward you. It's good to say this.

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