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the sad clown

No Compulsion And Apostasy

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Similarly, there were two competing perspectives displayed in that discussion as well. I want to thank everyone for helping me with this subject, especially Redeem who displayed a great amount of patience with me.

 

I went through the link and there was very heated discussion. I tend to agree with scholars who disagree killing of apostates. Logically and also based on Quran I think this view is more convincing.

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Interestingly, I just found a similar, though much lengthier, discussion: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=731758"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=731758[/url]

 

Similarly, there were two competing perspectives displayed in that discussion as well. I want to thank everyone for helping me with this subject, especially Redeem who displayed a great amount of patience with me.

 

Don't be mistaken in thinking that this issue is divided 50-50 or anything remotely close to that ratio. The minority believe that the death penalty is not enforced, and even then they disregard the Hadiths and the actions of the companions of the prophets, as well as the teachings of the Salaf (the first three generations of Muslims). Not to mention the Ijma (consensus).

 

Salam.

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The minority believe that the death penalty is not enforced, and even then they disregard the Hadiths and the actions of the companions of the prophets...

 

Hey, Redeem. I want to better understand your expression that disagreeing with the death penalty is disregarding the Prophetic traditions.

 

Would this penalty be applicable only in an Islamic State, or would it be applicable anywhere?

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Don't be mistaken in thinking that this issue is divided 50-50 or anything remotely close to that ratio. The minority believe that the death penalty is not enforced, and even then they disregard the Hadiths and the actions of the companions of the prophets, as well as the teachings of the Salaf (the first three generations of Muslims). Not to mention the Ijma (consensus).

I am not trying to estimate the ratio. It is easy to note that there is a divergence of opinion, it is not as easy, especially for an outsider like myself, to adjudicate this difference. But, in favor of this minority that you note, I have to admit that they would not have killed me or enforced a life of hypocrisy if I had been born in a Muslim country. That is a very strong point in their favor.

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Hey, Redeem. I want to better understand your expression that disagreeing with the death penalty is disregarding the Prophetic traditions.

 

Would this penalty be applicable only in an Islamic State, or would it be applicable anywhere?

 

:sl:

 

Hadd punishment is always enforced by the Islamic legal system. Not by the common Muslims.

 

 

I am not trying to estimate the ratio. It is easy to note that there is a divergence of opinion, it is not as easy, especially for an outsider like myself, to adjudicate this difference. But, in favor of this minority that you note, I have to admit that they would not have killed me or enforced a life of hypocrisy if I had been born in a Muslim country. That is a very strong point in their favor.

 

If a Muslim came to this forum stating that prophet Muhammad was not the last Messenger (there are those who believe so), something that is opposed by the majority of Muslims worldwide, would you still be saying that there is a divergence of opinion on whether or not prophet Muhammad was the last Messenger?

 

You know that I'm not the least bit surprised that your approval lies with those who support your own individual beliefs. But reality is reality; reality is not what is more palatable to us.

 

Salam.

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If a Muslim came to this forum stating that prophet Muhammad was not the last Messenger (there are those who believe so), something that is opposed by the majority of Muslims worldwide, would you still be saying that there is a divergence of opinion on whether or not prophet Muhammad was the last Messenger?

Well, if they came to this forum quoting the Qur'an with verses that made their argument plausible, then I might have pause. I have yet to see anyone do this. But as I have already said, I am only noting a difference of opinion, not adjudicating between these. I am just as aware as you are that what is convenient for me is not necessarily what Islam truly teaches, nor have I implied otherwise.

 

You know that I'm not the least bit surprised that your approval lies with those who support your own individual beliefs. But reality is reality; reality is not what is more palatable to us.

You may not be surprised, but I am. I was not aware that you still retain this level of mistrust towards me. I had thought, perhaps vainly, that I had participated enough to demonstrate sincerity and honesty. You may go back and look through this discussion, you will not see me ever tell you that you are wrong, nor have I argued on behalf of the alternative view. I have merely stated two things which ought to be obvious to anyone, (a) a divergence of opinion has been presented, both in this thread and the other one, and (b) one of these is more favorable to someone like myself. Both of these are part of the reality you have advocated. I am not implying or saying anything beyond these two.

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You may not be surprised, but I am. I was not aware that you still retain this level of mistrust towards me. I had thought, perhaps vainly, that I had participated enough to demonstrate sincerity and honesty. You may go back and look through this discussion, you will not see me ever tell you that you are wrong, nor have I argued on behalf of the alternative view. I have merely stated two things which ought to be obvious to anyone, (a) a divergence of opinion has been presented, both in this thread and the other one, and (b) one of these is more favorable to someone like myself. Both of these are part of the reality you have advocated. I am not implying or saying anything beyond these two.

 

I'm sorry, it wasn't meant to sound like a put-down. What I meant is that we all prefer something that works better in our favor; it's human nature. Personally, I would probably feel the same if I were in your situation, so I was trying to empathize with you.

 

I think I'll end here before I unintentionally place my foot in my mouth again.

 

Salam.

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I should have been more charitable in my interpretation. I apologize to you as well.

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:sl:

 

Brother, please excuse me for sounding like I was saying that you've deviated, as only Allah is the knower of the Unseen and it is very well possible that you are in a better situation than I am.

 

When the prophet was alive, the companions constantly learned from him, everything from the simplest of domestic habits to complex Shari'ah issues. When he died, this information was passed down to the Tabi'een, the generation after the companions, by word of mouth. Somewhere down the line, people realized that the information had to be recorded and thus, the Hadiths were compiled.

 

You are right that people should place their hope in Allah, but that does not make the coming of Mahdi, the return of prophet Isa, and the threat of Al-Dajjal mythical. What if you had been living during the prophet's time and he gave you this information by word of mouth? You would accept it. So why are we, 1400 years later, rejecting what the prophet has brought us?

 

The Qur'an is 114 chapters. If the Qur'an was to contain everything that the prophet also taught, it would be massive. Instead, Allah kept His words precise, and then sent a Messenger to explain it in greater detail.

 

We cannot understand the Qur'an without a back story. For example, who frowned in Surah Abasa? Who's the man who's threatened in Surah Iqra? What did Abu Lahab do to earn the enmity of Allah in Surah Masad? Why was prophet Muhammad admonished in Surah Tahrim? Or even more important, how do we perform the prayer that Allah commands us to do in the Qur'an? I could give you a list of hundreds of things that you and I would interpret differently in the Qur'an. But the reason that the scholars agreed on their meanings is because they had the words of the prophet as support.

 

After all, the Qur'an does explicitly state that the role of the prophet was not only to bring the Qur'an to the people, but to explain it in great detail.

 

“And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad ÕáìÇááå Úáíå æÓáã) the Dhikr [Qur'an], that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought†[16:44]

 

If you believe that the Qur'an is sufficient for you, then that's fine. I won't attempt to force you otherwise. But as a Moderator on this forum, I have to advise you not to promote the abandonment of the Hadiths, as that goes against the forum rules and what this forum stands for; following the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the prophet.

 

It was narrated from al-Miqdaam ibn Ma’di Yakrib (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said:

 

“Verily I have been given the Qur’an and something similar to it along with it. But soon there will be a time when a man will be reclining on his couch with a full stomach, and he will say, ‘You should adhere to this Qur’an: what you find that it says is permissible, take it as permissible, and what you find it says is forbidden, take it as forbidden.’ But indeed, whatever the Messenger of Allah forbids is like what Allah forbids.â€

[Narrated by al-Tirmidhi (2664)]

 

Sister Redeem,

 

A'salamu alaykim! I must apologize to you for getting a little heated there...

 

Thank Allah that you wrote this the way you did and that you provided the information in the way you did. My mind opened up my mind a little bit!

 

May God bless you and may He bring us closer together.

 

Peace

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Hadd punishment is always enforced by the Islamic legal system. Not by the common Muslims.

 

Walaikumassalam, Redeem.

 

So is there an Islamic State at the moment which may enforce the death penalty on apostates?

 

 

 

la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Al-‘Atheemu Al-Haleemu, la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Rabbul ‘arshil-‘atheemi, la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Rabbus-samaawaati wa Rabbul-ardhi wa Rabbul-‘arshil-kareemi

there is no god except Allah, the All-Mighty, the Forbearing; there is no god except Allah, the Lord of the Mighty Throne;

there is no god except Allah, Lord of the heavens, Lord of the earth and Lord of the noble Throne.

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The punishment would depend on the condition of a society. Similar with chopping hand of a thief would depend on the the condition of a society. Islam is flexible and can cope with any condition of a society.

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The punishment would depend on the condition of a society. Similar with chopping hand of a thief would depend on the the condition of a society. Islam is flexible and can cope with any condition of a society.

 

Hey there, Mercyonmankind.

 

Is it the punishment itself that varies with societal conditions, or the application of it?

 

 

 

la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Al-‘Atheemu Al-Haleemu, la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Rabbul ‘arshil-‘atheemi, la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Rabbus-samaawaati wa Rabbul-ardhi wa Rabbul-‘arshil-kareemi

there is no god except Allah, the All-Mighty, the Forbearing; there is no god except Allah, the Lord of the Mighty Throne;

there is no god except Allah, Lord of the heavens, Lord of the earth and Lord of the noble Throne.

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I can't quote where but I know that there have been Muslim nations that allowed apostasy and did not have a punishment for it. Legally Muslims became non Muslims. I believe it was either Spain or Turkey that held this view.

and by this I don't mean recent nations. I mean Al Andalus and The Ottoman Empire.

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Sister Redeem,

 

A'salamu alaykim! I must apologize to you for getting a little heated there...

 

Thank Allah that you wrote this the way you did and that you provided the information in the way you did. My mind opened up my mind a little bit!

 

May God bless you and may He bring us closer together.

 

Peace

 

:sl:

 

Ameen, brother. Jazakallah khair.

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I can't quote where but I know that there have been Muslim nations that allowed apostasy and did not have a punishment for it. Legally Muslims became non Muslims. I believe it was either Spain or Turkey that held this view.

 

Rest assured that there is a lot more to this than what certain websites would want us to believe. Take for instance the following narration, which is on the authority of Ibn Abbas (rAah):

 

Whoever changes his religion, you kill him.

 

It would appear that this is a open and shut case, yet, thereby hangs a tale.

 

Nor am I able to elicit a precise answer as to the whens and wheres of the applicability of capital punishment in cases of apostasy.

 

 

 

la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Al-‘Atheemu Al-Haleemu, la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Rabbul ‘arshil-‘atheemi, la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Rabbus-samaawaati wa Rabbul-ardhi wa Rabbul-‘arshil-kareemi

there is no god except Allah, the All-Mighty, the Forbearing; there is no god except Allah, the Lord of the Mighty Throne;

there is no god except Allah, Lord of the heavens, Lord of the earth and Lord of the noble Throne.

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