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parvez mushtaq

Nothing Created Everything .....a Question To Atheists

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Assalamulaikum Rahamatullahi Wabarakathahu


Did everything come from nothing? .This a biggest question on net right now. The answers given by the atheists is ,quantum events CAN occur without a cause .Note that "CAN" their answers will always contain auxiliary verbs such as "CAN","MAY","MIGHT"..In short they themselves don't validate their answers


James Watson Cronin,(click here) who won the 1980 noble prize for physics declared that 96% of the universe is consists of dark matter which does not emit or reflect any light .In other words it is dark and we know nothing about that dark matter. The remaining four percent of the universe consists of atoms and molecules. In other words it is the illuminated part of the universe. Even, our knowledge about the four percent is trifle. Just imagine , with these knowledge, atheists claim "nothing gave everything" .But, there is a mention of this fact in Koran, 1400 years ago!

Read this verses
067.003
YUSUFALI: He Who created the seven heavens one above another: No want of proportion wilt thou see in the Creation of (Allah) Most Gracious. So turn thy vision again: seest thou any flaw?

067.004
YUSUFALI: Again turn thy vision a second time: (thy) vision will come back to thee dull and discomfited, in a state worn out.

067.005
YUSUFALI: And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.

Quran is very clear here , only the lower part (which is only 4% of the universe) is illuminated and stars are missiles , indicating that stars are balls of fire ! i dont know when scientist established that stars are fire balls

SubhanALLAH! Can you able to appreciate this fact ?


Sir George Howard Darwin, son of the famous Charles Robert Darwin, gave a hypothesis (Click here) to the regarding the formation of earth crust .As per his hypothesis, The Earth and the moon were once been a one body and by centrifugal forces moon slowly drifted away from the earth. On this line, later it was established that, an iron rich mars sized planet, Theia, collided with the earth about 30-40 millions years ago.The result of this impact was moon and the iron core .So the present iron in the earth belongs to Theia and does not belong to Earth.

Let us check this verse form Quran

57.025
YUSUFALI: We sent aforetime our messengers with Clear Signs and sent down with them the Book and the Balance (of Right and Wrong), that men may stand forth in justice; and We sent down Iron, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind, that Allah may test who it is that will help, Unseen, Him and His messengers: For Allah is Full of Strength, Exalted in Might (and able to enforce His Will).

Now who would have known in the 7 Th century that iron does not belong to earth rather it was send to Earth , is it "nothing" or is it GOD
The wonderful thing about this findings is , Sir George Howard Darwin,Son of Charles Darwin .Look here for one of the wonders of Allah.Charles Darwin became a cause of Atheism but Allah had different planing , He made his son to prove his signs .

Can you able to appreciate this ?

SubhanALLAH !

Finally, Habitable Zone is the distance from the star where the temperature is neither too hot nor too cold or in other words a place from the star where the Earth like planet can maintain water on its surface and there by earth like life exist on it .my question to atheists is , does that "nothing" send the iron to earth or the GOD who revealed 1400 years ago that he send iron to the earth .was that "nothing" which placed the earth in the habitable zone or is it GOD who said in Quran .

055.007
YUSUFALI: And the Firmament has He raised high, and He has set up the Balance (of Justice),

I don't know whether this ayah meant this but do you have any another explanation for this ayah
any way , it is quite clear that Habitable Zone is one of the evidence for Allah's Creation as mention in
67.003
YUSUFALI: He Who created the seven heavens one above another: No want of proportion wilt thou see in the Creation of (Allah) Most Gracious. So turn thy vision again: seest thou any flaw?

So, which one we should believe now, the theory of "nothing gave everything"or the Quran which confirms the recent findings of science before 1400 years

Is it science confirming Quran or Quran confirming science?

Edited by parvez mushtaq

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PropellerAds

Parvez, your post contains multiple misunderstandings:

 

1. "Dark Matter" (if it exists) exists everywhere (not just in "the lower part"), and if it exists, its original source would also be, e.g., a symmetry-breaking quantum fluctuation in a total void (e.g., search for "zenofzero" on the internet and then go to "Awareness").

 

2. The Earth's iron didn't come from some planet "Theia"; iron is one of the most abundant heavier elements in the universe, being formed from the final nuclear fusion reaction in stars before supernovae (e.g., see Wikipedia's article on "iron").

 

3. "Nothing" didn't "place the earth in the habitable zone": near stars such as our Sun, stardust from supernovae gravitationally congeals to form planets; some of those planets (such as the Earth) are then in positions such that life could initiate and evolve (e.g., see Wikipedia's article on "extraterrestrial life).

 

Your most serious misunderstanding, however, is apparently to fail to appreciate that the fundamental feature of science is to search for answers to preconceived questions, not questions for preconceived answers.

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Hi Zoro

thank you replaying for my post

fristly .i want to tell you is , i am well aware of what i am writing here or anywhere

second , i am not here to prove any scientific discovery

 

coming to the topic ,

 

1. "Dark Matter" (if it exists) exists everywhere (not just in "the lower part"), and if it exists, its original source would also be, e.g., a symmetry-breaking quantum fluctuation in a total void (e.g., search for "zenofzero" on the internet and then go to "Awareness").

 

My point was , 96% of the universe is dark and only 4% is illuminated and quran says ,Allah has illuminated the lower part of the heaven with Stars .

the problem of science is , it is still in its cradle where as quran is the GOD's word

my question to you is ,can you prove ours is not the lower heaven and we don't have six heavens above us

Science ,on its wet bed can only able to GUESS that 96% is dark ,note that this is not even proved rather it is guess

Btw , i agree with you that dark matter is among us ,but may i know why you have omitted "dark energy"

pl don't give me a link ,i am not a parrot and i don't like parrots

i congratulate you for accepting the fact that "stars are missiles" .don't you think people in the past would have laughed at this point as you are making a mock of the fact of "lower part of heaven "

now we say stars are fire balls ,this is because due the advancement of science .if quran is true regarding the stars ,then the fact of seven heavens must also be true

the only point i made used of the theory of DARK energy or dark matter is 96% of the universe is dark and only 4% is illuminated which goes very well with quran

 

2. The Earth's iron didn't come from some planet "Theia"; iron is one of the most abundant heavier elements in the universe, being formed from the final nuclear fusion reaction in stars before supernovae (e.g., see Wikipedia's article on "iron").

 

Lol ,Zoro , i have checked the wiki link

Btw , i gave the links in order to prove my point , IF ADMINS are not interested to allow these links ,then i should not be blamed

any way , i will help you , read the wiki for "Giant impact hypothesis" and tell me whether i am wrong

i told you , i know what i am writing , zoro

 

 

3. "Nothing" didn't "place the earth in the habitable zone": near stars such as our Sun, stardust from supernovae gravitationally congeals to form planets; some of those planets (such as the Earth) are then in positions such that life could initiate and evolve (e.g., see Wikipedia's article on "extraterrestrial life).

Oh zoro ! pl stop giving me links

my point was , how could every thing can happen without a cause

how can there be a planet on a habitable zone and how can a iron rich planet come a collide earth without a cause

don't you read the verse i gave for earth being on habitable zone .this a perfect measure that GOD has prescribed for earth

every thing cannot happen "just like that" as atheist claim

pl read my post once again and try to refute me as an atheist

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The reference to zenofzero is to my own, on-line, free book. If you would read and understand it, I'm confident that you'll withdraw your proposals.

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Assalam Alaikum

 

I have to say Brother Mushtaq that was an excellent article. May Allah Swt reward you for your efforts in both worlds Allahumma aameen

 

May Allah SWT guide us all alike Allahumma aameen

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Assalam Alaikum

 

I have to say Brother Mushtaq that was an excellent article. May Allah Swt reward you for your efforts in both worlds Allahumma aameen

 

May Allah SWT guide us all alike Allahumma aameen

Thank you very much ,Sister Sarwat

i am really happy to know that i could contribute a grain in the ocean

i think , i was paid handsomely by your words,sister. what else i require

rest ,i am waiting for my payment from Allah

May Allah accept this from me

Ameen

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Hi zoro

I roughly ran about 7 or 8 pages of your book

pl listen carefully , my post was about the cause

atheists say , there was no cause in the creation of universe

you say , every thing was "zero" in the beginning

I say , of course everything was zero and it was GOD who created everything out of "nothing"

What you say about this verses , zoro

027.064

mohsin Khan : Is not He (better than your so-called gods) Who originates creation, and shall thereafter repeat it, and Who provides for you from heaven and earth? Is there any ilâh (god) with Allâh? Say, "Bring forth your proofs, if you are truthful."

 

or

 

002.117

YUSUFALI: To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is.

 

or

 

52.035

YUSUFALI: Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators?

 

 

I was really amazed when you generalized physical laws to the entire universe

don't you know ,physical laws failed bitterly when scientist found that universe is expanding rapidly instead of slowing down

since they found their gravitational laws are inadequate to explain this concept , they brought the concept of Dark energy and they claim they are ignorant about it ! silly , lol

so , dear (i like your style of using the word "dear" often in your book)zoro , science is still on its wet bed

 

Btw , what happened to iron from theia and habitable zone .May i take it as you have accepted my opinion

 

if so , Was it a coincidence that son of The Great Darwin propounding the Giant impact hypothesis or it was GOD as he said in quran

027.093

YUSUFALI: And say: "Praise be to Allah, Who will soon show you His Signs, so that ye shall know them"; and thy Lord is not unmindful of all that ye do.

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Hi zoro

I roughly ran about 7 or 8 pages of your book

Wow, a whole 7 or 8 pages; that's about 0.1% of the book and seems to be representative of the depth to which you explore a topic.

 

pl listen carefully

Yah, about as closely as you read my book.

 

my post was about the cause

atheists say , there was no cause in the creation of universe

That's incorrect, as I explain. Try reading at least another ten pages of the book.

 

you say , every thing was "zero" in the beginning

I say , of course everything was zero and it was GOD who created everything out of "nothing"

What you say about this verses , zoro

027.064

mohsin Khan : Is not He (better than your so-called gods) Who originates creation, and shall thereafter repeat it, and Who provides for you from heaven and earth? Is there any ilâh (god) with Allâh? Say, "Bring forth your proofs, if you are truthful."

or

002.117

YUSUFALI: To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is.

or

52.035

YUSUFALI: Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? [

I say it's all wild speculation and bravado, similar to yours.

 

I was really amazed when you generalized physical laws to the entire universe

don't you know ,physical laws failed bitterly when scientist found that universe is expanding rapidly instead of slowing down

since they found their gravitational laws are inadequate to explain this concept , they brought the concept of Dark energy and they claim they are ignorant about it ! silly , lol

Talk about silly! As you would learn if you read some more, there are no physical "laws"; there are only principles that are supported by existing data. If support wanes, the principles are modified.

 

so , dear (i like your style of using the word "dear" often in your book)zoro , science is still on its wet bed

If you would read a little more, you'll see that the book is written explicitly to my oldest granddaughter, whom I address as "Dear".

 

Btw , what happened to iron from theia and habitable zone .May i take it as you have accepted my opinion

I already addressed that in my first post: it's another wild speculation, unworthy of further comment.

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Wow, a whole 7 or 8 pages; that's about 0.1% of the book and seems to be representative of the depth to which you explore a topic.

 

That's incorrect, as I explain. Try reading at least another ten pages of the book.

 

I say it's all wild speculation and bravado, similar to yours.

 

Hi Zoro

Note : pl don't repeat the same answers

 

firstly,I cannot go beyond 7 or 8 pages ,i apologies

 

second , you say ,the verses i had displayed are speculation or in other words a WILD GUESS

 

lol, zoro

let me once again explain what is DARK MATTER

Dark matter does not have atoms and only be experienced through gravity

 

Now,i must congratulate you for including Dark matter in particle physics of atoms (i mean positive and negative charges)

let us watch your equation in your book , Zoro

 

Well, the answer to that question is obvious: 0 = S + ( – S ), i.e., ‘nothing’

can obviously be separated into ‘something’ plus its negative. Alternatively,

with A = (pretty much Anything), B = Bosons, C = Charge, D = Dark

Matter, E = Energy, F = Fermions, G = Gluons, H = Hadrons, I = (I

dunno!)… then ‘nothing’ can be separated into any number of ‘things’:

 

0 = (A – A) + (B – B) + (C – C) + (D – D) + (E – E) + …(Dunno - dunno ) + (dunno -dunno )....and your list of dunno goes on and on ,.....

 

Now, please tell me honestly , zoro

who told you that there is Positive and negative DARK MATTER

and can you explain me what is that "Dunno"

 

THIS is nothing but a WILD GUESS , ZORO

as quran says in

 

045.024

YUSUFALI: And they say: "What is there but our life in this world? We shall die and we live, and nothing but time can destroy us." But of that they have no knowledge: they merely conjecture:

 

Do you know , Zoro, quran had answered people like even before 1400 years ago

 

I think there was a mention of stephen hawking in your book

if you know quran and start watching stephen hawking show on discovery channel , you will amazed to find , his show seems to prove quran on lot of occasions

Btw , even this thread is one of such inspiration

before studying quran and understanding it , you cannot declare it as a WILD GUESS

Admire NATURE WITH QURAN, AND YOU WILL DEFINITIVELY FEEL THE GOD , THE PERFECT THE FASHIONER , THE DESIGNER ,THE ORIGINATOR.....AS TOLD IN QURAN

 

059.023

YUSUFALI: Allah is He, than Whom there is no other god;- the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Source of Peace (and Perfection), the Guardian of Faith, the Preserver of Safety, the Exalted in Might, the Irresistible, the Supreme: Glory to Allah! (High is He) above the partners they attribute to Him.

059.023

YUSUFALI: Allah is He, than Whom there is no other god;- the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Source of Peace (and Perfection), the Guardian of Faith, the Preserver of Safety, the Exalted in Might, the Irresistible, the Supreme: Glory to Allah! (High is He) above the partners they attribute to Him.

059.024

YUSUFALI: He is Allah, the Creator, the Evolver, the Bestower of Forms (or Colours). To Him belong the Most Beautiful Names: whatever is in the heavens and on earth, doth declare His Praises and Glory: and He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

 

I already addressed that in my first post: it's another wild speculation, unworthy of further comment.

 

Lol , Zoro

you are forcing me to read your book which is nothing but a WILD GUESS but you are denying a fact which was established even before 1400 years

 

Any way , i will reproduce wiki here to prove that quran is not a wild guess

 

.......an astronomical terms, the impact would have been of moderate velocity. Theia is thought to have struck the Earth at an oblique angle when the planet was nearly fully formed. Computer simulations of this "late-impact" scenario suggest an impact angle of about 45° and an initial impactor velocity below 4 km/s.[11] Theia's iron core sank into the young Earth's core[using large font size is not allowed], as most of Theia's mantle and a significant portion of the Earth's mantle and crust were ejected into orbit around the Earth. This material quickly coalesced into the Moon (possibly within less than a month, but in no more than a century). Estimates based on computer simulations of such an event suggest that some two percent of the original mass of Theia ended up as an orbiting ring of debris, and about half of this matter coalesced into the Moon.......

 

 

In 1898, George Howard Darwin made an early suggestion that the Earth and Moon had once been one body.......

 

Now lets us find who is George Howard Darwin

 

 

Sir George Howard Darwin, FRS (9 July 1845 – Cambridge, 7 December 1912)[1] was an English astronomer and mathematician, the second son and fifth child of Charles and Emma Darwin.

 

What you say now , even this is a wild Guess

Things are in front of our eyes , Zoro

we want to close our eyes and live in darkness

open your eyes ,Zoro

This is a serious call towards the truth .It is up to you to realize

May Allah guide to the truth

 

ONCE AGAIN , I WANT YOU TO READ THIS VERSES

 

059.023

YUSUFALI: Allah is He, than Whom there is no other god;- the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Source of Peace (and Perfection), the Guardian of Faith, the Preserver of Safety, the Exalted in Might, the Irresistible, the Supreme: Glory to Allah! (High is He) above the partners they attribute to Him.

059.023

YUSUFALI: Allah is He, than Whom there is no other god;- the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Source of Peace (and Perfection), the Guardian of Faith, the Preserver of Safety, the Exalted in Might, the Irresistible, the Supreme: Glory to Allah! (High is He) above the partners they attribute to Him.

059.024

YUSUFALI: He is Allah, the Creator, the Evolver, the Bestower of Forms (or Colours). To Him belong the Most Beautiful Names: whatever is in the heavens and on earth, doth declare His Praises and Glory: and He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

 

 

Jazak Allah

 

Regards

 

Mushtaq

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Stars are absoloutly not missiles. A missile such as a rocket has a directed thrust. When the missile burns it's fuel the burning causes flame etc to come out of one end very quickly this pushes the rest of the rocket forward.

 

Stars give out their burning in all directins and thus do not generate thrust. They go along not accelerating due to their fusion of hydrogen into helium.

 

I always think it odd when the religious use physics to justify your beliefs. What happens when a new theory comes along and science changes it's mind? Does that cause your whole belief to colapse?

 

We (humans) do not know where we all came from. We do know it all started a long time ago. Scietists are investigating this question. They are producing interesting ideas some of which are useful.

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Stars are absoloutly not missiles. A missile such as a rocket has a directed thrust. When the missile burns it's fuel the burning causes flame etc to come out of one end very quickly this pushes the rest of the rocket forward.

 

Stars give out their burning in all directins and thus do not generate thrust. They go along not accelerating due to their fusion of hydrogen into helium.

 

I always think it odd when the religious use physics to justify your beliefs. What happens when a new theory comes along and science changes it's mind? Does that cause your whole belief to colapse?

 

We (humans) do not know where we all came from. We do know it all started a long time ago. Scietists are investigating this question. They are producing interesting ideas some of which are useful.

The dictionary begs to differ.

Missile-

"An object or weapon that is fired, thrown, dropped, or otherwise projected at a target; a projectile."

Projectile-

" a body projected by external force and continuing in motion by its own inertia"

 

Yes stars most certainly do move in space. In fact they have calculated average velocity for a star is 15mps.

Even our own star is moves through space towards the constellation Hercules.

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^ Yes of course everything moves through space. However stars are not projected, fired or thrown.

 

Also the idea of a projectile/missile does not include a ball of fire. That is a different concept.

 

A ball of fire need not be moving. The sun is of course fixed relative to the solar system.

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^ Yes of course everything moves through space. However stars are not projected, fired or thrown.

 

Also the idea of a projectile/missile does not include a ball of fire. That is a different concept.

 

A ball of fire need not be moving. The sun is of course fixed relative to the solar system.

I would disagree.

If it is moving through space it would be no doubt moving, which of course would be due to an external force (gravity).

This would warrant being a projectile.

 

I dont see any exceptions in the definition of a projectile so yes a ball of fire most certainly would qualify as a projectile.

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We (humans) do not know where we all came from. We do know it all started a long time ago. Scietists are investigating this question. They are producing interesting ideas some of which are useful.

 

Salam,

 

Tim, are you familiar with the law of Causality? Look it up, there's a wiki article on it as a starting point.

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Causality"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Causality[/url]

In essence, we have Cause + Action = Effect. It is an established scientific fact that we do not find living being originated from a non living object. It is also an established fact that we do not get systems and order from chaos and disorder, we also do not find things that did not exist before brought themselves into existence..

 

Science can only go so far and it will ultimately reach point where it has to deal with 'what's before nothing' question..this is where our faculty of reason and observations comes into play..

 

As per missiles, have you heard of a 'shooting star'? As for the sun, we know that it travels (and us along with it) at close to 500,000 miles per hour!

 

 

I always think it odd when the religious use physics to justify your beliefs. What happens when a new theory comes along and science changes it's mind? Does that cause your whole belief to colapse?

 

If a scripture is from the One who Created the universe, the All Knower, then for obvious reason, that scripture cannot contain contradictions or mistakes. Science makes u-turns all the time, so let's stick to the 'established' and known scientific facts.

Quran describes the shape of the earth as like an Ostrich egg, science used to say that earth was flat and it is established now that the earth round in shape.

Quran mentions that our universe started as one entity, science accepted that fact just decades ago..our universe began by what science describes as a big bang, just some of the examples..

 

The fact that science can explain how certain things came about,does not disprove the existence of the Creator, does it? It's like a primitive man found a car in the middle of nowhere and somehow managed to figure out how certain parts were made, that does not discount the fact that, that car has a creator...

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I always think it odd when the religious use physics to justify your beliefs. What happens when a new theory comes along and science changes it's mind? Does that cause your whole belief to colapse?

 

I choose to answer you from this point

you are correct , theory should not be used to justify religious beliefs

but , only theories became law

so we cannot ignore theories

Your point is , Stars are not missiles, is it a theory or a law

can you prove it ,the answer is no

 

BUT......

 

I think , you will not be having problem to accept comets as fire balls

keeping in mind ,let see the verse i have posted

 

lest look at the verse i have chosen, in Arabic .it reads like this

 

67: æóáóÞóÃú ÒóíøóäøóÇ ÇáÓøóãóÇÃó ÇáÃøõäúíóÇ ÈöãóÕóÇÈöíÃó æóÌóÚóáúäóÇåóÇ ÑõÌõæãðÇ áöáÔøóíóÇØöíäö ۖ æóÃóÚúÊóÃúäóÇ áóåõãú ÚóÃóÇÈó ÇáÓøóÚöíÑö (5

 

 

and its translitiration is

 

Walaqad zayyanna alssamaa alddunya bimasabeeha wajaAAalnaha rujooman lilshshayateeni waaAAtadna lahum AAathaba alssaAAeeri

 

 

the word used here is Masabiha which is plural for lamp

 

Do you know ,people know about comets even before Islam

i think , even this should not be problem for you

as per history , people know about comets for the past 2500 years

but ,what they don't know was , they are fire balls

 

now , the word masabeeha denotes both , stars as well as comets

since quran proves that comets are firs balls so there by , it also prove stars are also fire balls

and , science says ,comets are like falling stars but know very little (theory) about stars

 

if quran is true about , comets , then automatically , it most also true about stars

 

one more verse to prove my point is (mohsin khan)

15:16. And indeed, We have put the big stars in the heaven and We beautified it for the beholders.

15:17. And We have guarded it (near heaven) from every outcast Shaitân (devil).

15:18. Except him (devil) that gains hearing by stealing, he is pursued by a clear flaming fire

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Rahimi,

 

Salam,

 

My maths teaching causes me to not like your equation. I prefer

 

Cause -------> effect where ------> is the symbol for leads to.

 

Living patterns do come from non-living things. Carbon crystalises into extreemly complex patterns, some of these reproduce themselves. Computer viruses have behaviours which are a sort of life and have been known to copy themselves wrongly and get better as a result. That agina can be viewed as a sor of life.

 

Order ofthen comes from chaos. Chaotic water molecules will freeze into a beautiful pattern to become a smowflake. Lots of crystals do this.

 

Ideas did not exist before they were thaught of. Then they exist.

 

Science is using reason and observation to probe the what came before question. However it is not something that I need to emotionally invest in. It's interesting but not going to effect my life.

 

Do you know what a shooting star is?

 

The sun is traveling at 500,000 miles per hour compaired to what?

 

The earth is not shaped like an Ostrich egg it's almost a sphere. So did Mohamed get it wrong?

 

If science come up with a new theory which all the physicists say "Hey that explains ......Wow! That's so good." and that theory has a multiple number of things which started it all will that cause you to abandon God? I don't think so. But just in case avoid using the latest scientific theory to justify things it does not include.

 

The car idea...... You moslims are so much more intelegent than your christian equivalent.....I suppose it is a question of the room for the interferance in the world to allow God to opperate. The internet is a very complex system. Who designed it? Answer:- nobody it kind of grew from multiple systems interacting. Complexity is not and indication of design.

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Parvez,

 

Salam,

 

We know a lot about stars. They are not commets. Very different.

 

Stars are huge balls of gas which due to the extreem pressure in the middle have continious fusion reactions going on which change mass into energy. The sun destroys 2,000,000Tonnes of mass every second changing it into energy.

 

Commets are bits of rock and ice in non-circular orbits which as they get close to the sun boil. The dirty steam, gas and dust is iluminated by the sun and blown away from the sun by the pressure of sunshine. Sunshine is powerful stuff outside the earth's magnetic field. Commets are small.

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Rahimi,

 

Salam,

 

My maths teaching causes me to not like your equation. I prefer

 

Cause -------> effect where ------> is the symbol for leads to.

 

Living patterns do come from non-living things. Carbon crystalises into extreemly complex patterns, some of these reproduce themselves. Computer viruses have behaviours which are a sort of life and have been known to copy themselves wrongly and get better as a result. That agina can be viewed as a sor of life.

We are not talking about living PATTERNS. We are talking living organisms that can reproduce, grow, contain cell(s), use energy, and exhibit homeostasis. Carbon is not living, computer viruses or even biological viruses are not living. In short no living organism can come from a non living source.

 

Order ofthen comes from chaos. Chaotic water molecules will freeze into a beautiful pattern to become a smowflake. Lots of crystals do this.

Water molecules are not chaotic and have defined characteristics and motion. Please use another example to back up your statement.

 

Ideas did not exist before they were thaught of. Then they exist.

Are ideas living organisms?

 

Science is using reason and observation to probe the what came before question. However it is not something that I need to emotionally invest in. It's interesting but not going to effect my life.

There is no observation that can be used to determine the unobservable. All these multiple universe theories and string theory and what not are just as much belief and speculation as any organized religion.

 

Do you know what a shooting star is?

Yes

 

The sun is traveling at 500,000 miles per hour compaired to what?

The Sun and the solar system move with respect to the nearby stars at a speed of 45,000 mph or 1,080,00 miles per day. The Sun’s path is inclined about 25 degrees to the plane of the galaxy and oscillates through the plane, crossing it every 33 million years. The Sun and the stars near it are on somewhat different orbits around the centre of the galaxy, so at any one time the Sun is overtaking some stars and being passed by others.

 

The earth is not shaped like an Ostrich egg it's almost a sphere. So did Mohamed get it wrong?

Are you familiar with metaphors? Try explaining to people 1400 years ago who believed in a flat world the idea of a round world. It must be put in context they can understand. This is why that choice of words was used in my opinion.

 

If science come up with a new theory which all the physicists say "Hey that explains ......Wow! That's so good." and that theory has a multiple number of things which started it all will that cause you to abandon God? I don't think so. But just in case avoid using the latest scientific theory to justify things it does not include.

If it disproves God and does so with absolute proof and no speculation needed to do so then I would be the first to become atheist. This of course will never happen because God does exist and science has a limit to what is observable.

 

The car idea...... You moslims are so much more intelegent than your christian equivalent.....I suppose it is a question of the room for the interferance in the world to allow God to opperate. The internet is a very complex system. Who designed it? Answer:- nobody it kind of grew from multiple systems interacting. Complexity is not and indication of design.

who designed the multiple complex systems that came together to make the internet? What about the tools necessary to be able to use, see, and interact with said system? Can you name one thing in this universe that does not have a designer? Make sure you have 100% proof it does not have a designer and you can back this up with scientifically accepted laws not theories.

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Shooting Stars:- Bits of rock falling down to earth and burning up in the atmosphere as they do so. Normally these are bits of old commet.

 

Virus's are part of life. They cause themselves to be reproduced. Lots of life happens without cells in anairobic conditions (I think I have not got the spelling right). As evolution has combined the smaller units of life together into cells life has gained complexity.

 

Water molecules are the classic example of random motion. This is called brownian motion for some reason. Totally random within the confines of the surface tension of water.

 

The study of ideas uses the idea of evolution to model an idea's progress through the minds of us all. The ideas in this contex are called meams.

 

The difference between a religious idea and a scientific idea is that when a scientific idea is shown to be poor nobody dies over it. The scientist changes his mind if a better explaination is availible.

 

Do you think the word missile is a good description of a star? Does the word missile define a ball of fire? To me a thrown rock is a missile. A fire ball is a ball of fire.

 

The idea of a sphere was understood 2500 years ago.

 

"God does exist" how do you know?

 

When a river deposits material in a bend of the river it sorts the material out by size and density. The river dose this differently for different flow rates of the river. As the seasons and years progress it will leave behind a pattern of deposits. It is an instantly recognisable pattern. It can easily be understood by considering the ability of flowing water to carry objects of varying sizes. This process is inevitable where water flows in a land with rock, gravel, sand and clay. That's everywhere. Does every stream have a designer?

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My maths teaching causes me to not like your equation. I prefer

 

Cause -------> effect where ------> is the symbol for leads to.

Salam..

So, you DON’T like the equation from established law and PREFER your own…don’t we all? Ever wish that sometimes winter can be a little warmer or summer a little colder or a day would last 36 hours? Or perhaps to not die? You are entitle to your own opinion but you are NOT entitled to your own facts. That’s just how it is, sorry..

 

There is a cause for every single thing, which we call ‘effect’. Look around, there is a cause for everything.. to say things appears out of the blue ‘uncaused’ or caused themselves to appear whereas they were in the state of non-existent is lunacy..

 

Living patterns do come from non-living things. Carbon crystalises into extreemly complex patterns, some of these reproduce themselves. Computer viruses have behaviours which are a sort of life and have been known to copy themselves wrongly and get better as a result. That agina can be viewed as a sor of life.

Order ofthen comes from chaos. Chaotic water molecules will freeze into a beautiful pattern to become a smowflake. Lots of crystals do this.

You are confusing and lumping ‘patterns’ with ‘codes’. Many patterns occur in nature such snowflakes,rivers, ocean waves ec. These patterns are the natural result of what scientists categorize as chaos and fractals. Chaos can produce pattern but it cannot produce codes!

Computer virus are generated by codes, another examples of codes would be things like maps, a literary masterpiece, music, computer programs, etc. In other word codes contain INFORMATION. So chaos can produce pattern but it can never provide INFORMATION. DO you ever see a map produced by a river through the process of erosion before?

 

ALL Codes shares a common feature, they ALL requires a designer, they are ALL a product of a mind. What you typed is a code, they contain information..Our DNA is a code, as it contain INFORMATION.. are you getting this point?

 

Do you know what a shooting star is?

I am trying to illustrate a point, a shooting star by definition is not a star, but why people call it by that name? The actual Quran is the recitation in Arabic, the translation is not. When there is issue such as this we would need to go back to the original and take it from there..anyway this another subject..

 

The sun is traveling at 500,000 miles per hour compaired to what?

A child of a ferries wheel may think she is the only one spinning, the fact of the matter is our earth is spinning and in an orbit around the sun. That is how we get our nights,days and seasons..

Our universe is subjected to several dimension, time, space, matters, energy etc.. when an object is at x,y,z position at time t, and t different positions at diffent times, then we can compute its speed. To say that the sun is stationary since it is the centre of our solar system is scientifically wrong since the sun is moving in an orbit (solar apex) and we along with it , millions of miles per day..

 

The earth is not shaped like an Ostrich egg it's almost a sphere. So did Mohamed get it wrong?

Almost a sphere? So it’s not quite a sphere then? Remember ‘science’ at one stage thought the earth was flat., To describe it as ‘an ostrich’ egg shape or a sphere is acceptable is not wrong. Look up you high school science books.

 

The car idea...... You moslims are so much more intelegent than your christian equivalent.....I suppose it is a question of the room for the interferance in the world to allow God to opperate. The internet is a very complex system. Who designed it? Answer:- nobody it kind of grew from multiple systems interacting. Complexity is not and indication of design.

Nobody designed internet and multiple systems interacting? Goodness me..so you just go to the shop, bought a pc, swthed it on and voila everything starts ‘interacting’? Why do you think Bill Gates gotten so rich?, did he just punch it some gibberish codes in the early 80s and sat around counting money since then? He created the CODES that runs your computer, the fact you are oblivious to it is beside the point. Again CODES contains information, hence there is a MIND behind it.

 

When a river deposits material in a bend of the river it sorts the material out by size and density. The river dose this differently for different flow rates of the river. As the seasons and years progress it will leave behind a pattern of deposits. It is an instantly recognisable pattern. It can easily be understood by considering the ability of flowing water to carry objects of varying sizes. This process is inevitable where water flows in a land with rock, gravel, sand and clay. That's everywhere. Does every stream have a designer?

 

Think about this for a second, why we would not expect to find a map, a literary masterpiece, an set of alphabets or numbers carved by rivers? Our DNA is described by scientists as codes, genetic codes, with information that could fill the biggest library.

Let me make this a little clearer, our organs are made up of components, each component is made up of cells, each cell contain DNA or a set of instructions on how to fuse with other cells to form a component, and that how we get to hear..

 

Now here’s a challenge for you, show me a code, a set of instructions, a language, a literary masterpiece WITHOUT a MIND behind it..

If you can’t, then please come down your high horse, humble yourself and truly try and seek to understand before making judgment and calling people stupid..

Edited by RAHIMI

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Shooting Stars:- Bits of rock falling down to earth and burning up in the atmosphere as they do so. Normally these are bits of old commet.

 

Virus's are part of life. They cause themselves to be reproduced. Lots of life happens without cells in anairobic conditions (I think I have not got the spelling right). As evolution has combined the smaller units of life together into cells life has gained complexity.

It doesnt matter if they are part of life they are non living according to scientific standards. No life does not happen without cells as this is a requirement of life.

 

Water molecules are the classic example of random motion. This is called brownian motion for some reason. Totally random within the confines of the surface tension of water.

Liquid water has a partially ordered structure in which hydrogen bonds are constantly being formed and breaking up. Because of the short time scale few bonds are seen breaking.

 

The study of ideas uses the idea of evolution to model an idea's progress through the minds of us all. The ideas in this contex are called meams.

im not going to try to refute this because the way you have worded it makes it seem nonsense.

 

The difference between a religious idea and a scientific idea is that when a scientific idea is shown to be poor nobody dies over it. The scientist changes his mind if a better explaination is availible.

that would vary according to each individual. An idea is an idea plenty have died over scientific ideas and disputes. Agian this has nothing to do with the idea but who is following the idea.

 

Do you think the word missile is a good description of a star? Does the word missile define a ball of fire? To me a thrown rock is a missile. A fire ball is a ball of fire.

the question wasn't if it was a good description, but it certainly does fit into the definition. Missile wouldnt be the best description for a thrown rock either brother.

 

The idea of a sphere was understood 2500 years ago.

Was it understood to illiterate farmers and peasants who would also like the message of God? or would relating it to something they know seem the better judgement in trying to spread your message of salvation to people?

 

"God does exist" how do you know?

Various reasons that the Quran is the truth from God, which requires another thread

 

When a river deposits material in a bend of the river it sorts the material out by size and density. The river dose this differently for different flow rates of the river. As the seasons and years progress it will leave behind a pattern of deposits. It is an instantly recognisable pattern. It can easily be understood by considering the ability of flowing water to carry objects of varying sizes. This process is inevitable where water flows in a land with rock, gravel, sand and clay. That's everywhere. Does every stream have a designer?

Yes. I would argue every stream does have a designer, that is because I am a theist. You would argue it doesn't. This is due to our different beliefs. Let us leave it at that.

Edited by Skenderbeu

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1, Maths.

To have a co-ordinate system (x,y,z,time t) you must have a referance point. This is decied by who ever sets up the co-ordinate system. If I wish to have a mapping system based on the sun as it's fixed point then that is fine. The latitude and longitude system is based on a brass line in the floor of the Greenwich observatory in London. It could just as easily be based anywhere else. I am stationary within that co-ordinate system. I am moving in the sun based system. Your statement that the sun is moving at 500,000 miles per hour is meaningless unless you also say what this is compaired to as your fixed point.

 

The equals sign is extreemly central to maths and the "equation" is wrong. Cause + Action is not the same as effect. Wikki often gets thing wrong.

 

I sit on my high horse because I know something and thus I can point out when you are wrong. You sit on your high horse pointing out what you consider wrong with no knowlege. The study of Islam will not give you mathamatical understanding.

 

The river deposits contain a lot of information.

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1, Maths.

To have a co-ordinate system (x,y,z,time t) you must have a referance point. This is decied by who ever sets up the co-ordinate system. If I wish to have a mapping system based on the sun as it's fixed point then that is fine. The latitude and longitude system is based on a brass line in the floor of the Greenwich observatory in London. It could just as easily be based anywhere else. I am stationary within that co-ordinate system. I am moving in the sun based system. Your statement that the sun is moving at 500,000 miles per hour is meaningless unless you also say what this is compaired to as your fixed point.

 

Obviously we must have a reference point, that is common sense. The fact that you are sitting on your chair and 'not moving' anywhere does not mean that the earth is not rotating and not moving around the sun! Galaxies are all in continuous motions and so does our solar system..Astronomists refer to 'local standard rest' for galaxies as reference and based the speed and movement on that.

 

Here are some queotes with regard to the speed of the sun:

 

Quote:

"Measurements of gas velocities in the solar neighborhood show that the sun, and everything in its vicinity, orbits the galactic center at a speed of about 220 km/s …."

 

"The Sun, which is located relatively far from the nucleus, moves at an estimated speed of about 225 km per second (140 miles per second) in a nearly cir

 

"… the sun's neighborhood, including the Sun itself, are moving around the centre of our Galaxy in approximately circular orbits with velocities of the order of 250 km/s."

 

Source: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_hypertextbook(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/facts/2001/AngelaChan.shtml"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_hypertextbook(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/facts/2001/AngelaChan.shtml[/url]

 

So what these scientists are saying are also meaningless? Let see 250kn X 60 X 60, that's about 900000km/hour ~. The fact that the sun is moving in an orbit at a staggering speed is commonly referred to by astronomists, What meaningless is YOU harping on about on reference point this reference point that just to dispute simple science.

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_hypertextbook(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/facts/2001/AngelaChan.shtml"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_hypertextbook(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/facts/2001/AngelaChan.shtml[/url]

 

The equals sign is extreemly central to maths and the "equation" is wrong. Cause + Action is not the same as effect. Wikki often gets thing wrong.

 

Math? and I'm not talking about Wiki either, this is a universal rule..look it up..

 

Let me try this again , Cause + Action = Effect. For something to appear from non existence, based on the entire human experience, there has to be a causefor it, look at everyday object, Cars, Houses, Chairs, Email, Ideas etc..Action is the effort put up by the cause to bring something into existence.

There is NO such thing as self causing Action, to claim that a house or a car built itself is lunacy or extreme stupidity..

 

The river deposits contain a lot of information.

 

You missed my point and my challenge, I'm not denying that there are information and patterns that can be derived from river deposit, types of fish dung in it could tell us the type of fish in that particular river system. You naively lump this type of patterns with codes and instructions. When we see, say 'Tim Waz Here' carved at a river bank, we know via logic, common sense, and reason, that the river erosion process could never produce that.Our DNA is a code and a set of instruction, like a blue print or a map. Address the challenge, show us codes or a set of instruction without a mind behind it.. are you up to it?

Edited by RAHIMI

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The four seasons are a code. A very simple repeating code of average temperatures and humidity, these four seasons along with differences in sea temperature and humidity produce a hugely complex code that even computers have a hard time modeling, known as a hurricane or typhoon. now which human created the hurricane? No one. Chaos theory shows that complex systems can arise out of simple building blocks. The idea that complex creatures can arrive from simple ones has been proven repeatedly until know it has more evidence behind it than the theory of gravity. How life arose in the first place , abrogenesis, is anyone's guess.

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The four seasons are a code. A very simple repeating code of average temperatures and humidity, these four seasons along with differences in sea temperature and humidity produce a hugely complex code that even computers have a hard time modeling, known as a hurricane or typhoon. now which human created the hurricane? No one. Chaos theory shows that complex systems can arise out of simple building blocks. The idea that complex creatures can arrive from simple ones has been proven repeatedly until know it has more evidence behind it than the theory of gravity. How life arose in the first place , abrogenesis, is anyone's guess.

 

Can you at least go back andf reread what I had posted. I had addressed this, yes chaos can produce patterns and sometimes a complex ones. Chaos cannot however produce a set of instructions. A set of instructions is a product of a mind. In similar mold is, for example maps, music, literary masterpiece, systems, all these do not arise from chaos as their require certain level of intellect and skills.

The question is simple enough, is DNA a set of patterns or is it a set of codes, i.e a set of instructions?

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