Jump to content
Islamic Forum
Mrs. J

Jesus Did Not Foretell The Coming Of The Prophet Muhammad

Recommended Posts

Perhaps it is wise to ponder even these verses from Matthew 7:

 

You don't even believe Jesus said what is quoted in that verse, so why do you want me to ponder about it? I'm sorry Rahimi, but you can't say the NT is corrupt beyond recognition and then use it for your end.

 

Who else that these verses refer to here but Christians? People who worship Jesus pbuh, cast out demons in his name and taken him as their lord and saviour..?

 

I see you have a tendency to misinterpret what you read. The verse is referring to munafiqun, people who praise Jesus with their lips but not in their hearts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PropellerAds
It would be quite painful to have someone that you so adore and worship say it to you face "I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers" wouldn't it?

 

It will be quite painful for those who scoff at Jesus' revelation, accuse His followers of corrupting His teaching, and mock those who believe in Him, to finally realize they are the ones who were wrong.

Look, Jesus and his mother pbut are humans, they went to market place and they ate food, and like every other human they need to use the toilet..,OK..? To worship them is blasphemy even according to the Bible..

 

I suppose it's never going to get through to some Musilms that Christians believe Jesus is wholly God and wholly human. He really did possess a human nature and therefore He did human things, like eat, breath air, sleep, etc. When God took on human form He emptied Himself, and took on the humble role of a servant. I understand that for you Allah is so great, that He would never even consider taking on our fragile form, but that is precisely what happened. God's greatness does not limit Him, His love for us is greater than you imagine.

Edited by LUX IN TENEBRIS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You don't even believe Jesus said what is quoted in that verse, so why do you want me to ponder about it? I'm sorry Rahimi, but you can't say the NT is corrupt beyond recognition and then use it for your end.

I see you have a tendency to misinterpret what you read. The verse is referring to munafiqun, people who praise Jesus with their lips but not in their hearts.

 

The Bible is 100% uncorrupted and you are a true believer, right?

Well Lo and behold LUX, there is a quick and sure fire way to resolve this..

 

Mark 16:

15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.â€

 

All you have to do is do a video of yourself picking up snakes, drink deadly poison and cure sick people by touching them..and upload it to youtube..go ahead lux,, you are a true beleiver right?

 

 

I suppose it's never going to get through to some Musilms that Christians believe Jesus is wholly God and wholly human. He really did possess a human nature and therefore He did human things, like eat, breath air, sleep, etc. When God took on human form He emptied Himself, and took on the humble role of a servant. I understand that for you Allah is so great, that He would never even consider taking on our fragile form, but that is precisely what happened. God's greatness does not limit Him, His love for us is greater than you imagine.

Look, God is defined by certain attributes and human is defined by certain attributes. God is allknowing, free of any need etc, human is generally clueless among most things and always in need of something like air and food. Saying that someone is allknowing and clueless, or immortal and mortal, free of need and needy at the same time is, sad to say, pinnacle of stupidity..think about it..or are you saying god stopped being god and became human and later became god again?

Edited by RAHIMI

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You remind me of the devil that tried to tempt Jesus in the wilderness

 

You remind me of a verse from the Bible that says "For God cannot be tempted", yet here we have it, the devil carried Jesus pbuh on his shoulder and tempt him with wealth and bread..oh wait, in human form, god can be tempted..(NAuzubillah, may Allah forgive me) Does this will ever make sense? Think about it Lux..

p.s oh and as per the youtube thing, I would recommend you do a live broadcast instead.. you know just in case..

Edited by RAHIMI

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You remind me of a verse from the Bible that says "For God cannot be tempted", yet here we have it, the devil carried Jesus pbuh on his shoulder and tempt him with wealth and bread..oh wait, in human form, god can be tempted..(NAuzubillah, may Allah forgive me)

 

Jesus is a Divine person incapable of sinning, look at the result of the Devils attempt to tempt Him, it failed.

 

Next!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Next!

Next is you drinking weedkiller live on web, that's what's next.. :sl:

Edited by RAHIMI

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No offense Rahimi, but it is clear that you lack faith. If you disbelieve that anyone can do these things, then you disbelieve that Jesus could do them, and by extension the prophesies in the Old Testament which said he would do them. Do you think it is a surprise that recently there was all of that heavy rain in the Middle East after Jews, Christians and Muslims came together to pray for relief from the unseasonal dryness?

 

There are Christians, particularly in the U.S. who handle snakes, and many others, particularly Evangelicals who lay hands on people and they are healed through faith. I myself have witnessed this and participated in laying hands, and I am healed of asthma after having prayed and believed as Jesus told me to – which leads me to my next point: If this verse and others in the New Testament are lies, why do people get results after having applied these teachings? Why are there so many Christians who report having experienced miraculous healing? Of course, there are a few fake pastors out there who pretend to do these things, but what about the individuals who have these experiences independently? What about the doctors who confirm their miraculous healings?

 

Jesus said:

“Receive your sight; your faith has healed you.†Luke 18:42

 

“Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give to those who ask him?†Luke 11:11-13

 

“Ask and it shall be given to you... For everyone who asks receives,†Luke 11:9-10

 

“I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not can you only do what was done to the fig tree [which withered], but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea’ and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.†Matthew 21:21-22

 

So clearly, there is a theological dispute because Muslims believe that God will only do what He wills and may refuse prayer, whereas Christians are assured that through faith [not doubt and with good intention] God wills to answer their prayers even if they are not ‘perfect’ people (and if they are wrong, explain the testimonies). Of course, most Muslims believe that they have a monopoly with God and Islam is superior so I’m not surprised that you denounce this perspective. Also consider:

 

“Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped. Then will the lame run like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy.†Isaiah 35:5-6 All fulfilled in John 9:6-7; Matthew 15:30; Matthew 9:32; Luke 11:14.

 

What is this preoccupation with disproving the Bible? The Quran should be enough. And anyway, if it is corrupt, what’s it to you? If they handle snakes and get bitten, why do you care? I have responded to the understanding of the verse in the Quran which says that ‘the gospel’ is corrupt in my post: CRUCIFIXION: QURAN VS BIBLE (it’s really long, so just have your browser search for the word ‘corrupt’ and it will lead you to the appropriate section towards second half of the post and I’ve also addressed the authenticity of the Old Testament if you believe they were edited to say things about Jesus or if things pertaining to Muhammad (pbuh) were removed).

 

“I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command.†Deuteronomy 18:18

 

This verse clearly applies to Jesus who is referred to in Islam as ‘kalimat-ul Allah’ (The Word of God) and also in the Bible.

 

If it applied to Muhammad (pbuh) it would be clear; it would refer to ‘the illustrious’ or ‘ the one worthy of praise’ or to his place of birth, etc.

 

Jesus also said, "These words I say to you are not my own, they belong to the Father who sent me," in John 14:2 and in John 15:15, "for everything that I have learned from my Father I have made known to you."

 

If we need theories and guessing games to prove a prophecy then clearly we are working with the wrong puzzle piece, just as with the claim that Jesus prophesied about him. Again, it doesn’t matter if the Bible prophesied about him or not, the proof is in the pudding – The Quran.

 

 

Younes,

Let me tell you something about Ahmad Deedat: this man lived in South Africa during white minority rule. Many people who have been oppressed and bullied often become oppressors and bullies themselves (israeli Jews are an example of this). Ahmad Deedat grew up in a society which taught that anyone who was not white was trash and white missionaries used to spread lies about Islam in those days. The education and quality of life of non-whites in those days was inferior and that could not be denied, so is it surprising that he uses his religion to make himself superior in some way and thus attacks the religion of the oppressor? The majority of Muslims in this country denounce his views because he was disrespecting other religions and attacking them for no reason, especially since no one was attacking Islam (except for the white missionaries). He clearly had an inferiority complex. Furthermore, Mr. Deedat referred to a ‘gospel of Barnabas’ which supposedly claims that Jesus foretold the coming of the prophet Muhammad, and not surprisingly, it also contains the Shahada. Now if Barnabas was alive in 1st century, what is the Shahada doing in there? And anyway, if Barnabas had a ‘heretical’ gospel in the eyes of the early church, why would they have made him a saint? Read my post CRUCIFIXION: QURAN VS BIBLE for more on this subject and claims of Bible corruption (it is long so have your browser search for ‘Barnabas’ and it will lead you there).

 

May I ask forum monitors: what is done to those who systematically twist the facts about Christians? because there is a lot of that on this site.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No offense Rahimi, but it is clear that you lack faith. If you disbelieve that anyone can do these things, then you disbelieve that Jesus could do them, and by extension the prophesies in the Old Testament which said he would do them. Do you think it is a surprise that recently there was all of that heavy rain in the Middle East after Jews, Christians and Muslims came together to pray for relief from the unseasonal dryness?

 

There are Christians, particularly in the U.S. who handle snakes, and many others, particularly Evangelicals who lay hands on people and they are healed through faith. I myself have witnessed this and participated in laying hands, and I am healed of asthma after having prayed and believed as Jesus told me to – which leads me to my next point: If this verse and others in the New Testament are lies, why do people get results after having applied these teachings? Why are there so many Christians who report having experienced miraculous healing? Of course, there are a few fake pastors out there who pretend to do these things, but what about the individuals who have these experiences independently? What about the doctors who confirm their miraculous healings?

 

Samanta,

 

Mark 16:

15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.â€

Source: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetbiblegateway(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/passage/?search=Mark%2016&version=NIV"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetbiblegateway(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/passage/?searc...amp;version=NIV[/url]

 

It is clear that one of the signs that accompany those who believe is, “when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all†This sounds to me very much like a literal test for all those who believe, . Therefore my challenge to Lux above is fair, what do you think?

 

Both of you are adamant that the Bible is 100% uncorrupted, so lets see if something as ridiculous as the above verses are indeed part of the scripture:

 

Quote 1:

The last part of the Gospel Mark (Mark 16:9-20)

 

Earlier manuscripts show chapter 16 to end at verse 8 but in later manuscripts there is a whole chunk (12 verses) which is added after this. We KNOW this is a later (unauthorised) insertion!

 

Mark 16:9-20 has been called a later addition to the Gospel of Mark by most New Testament scholars in the past century. The main reason for doubting the authenticity of the ending is that it does not appear in some of the oldest existing witnesses, and it is reported to be absent from many others in ancient times by early writers of the Church. Moreover, the ending has some stylistic features which also suggest that it came from another hand. The Gospel is obviously incomplete without these verses, and so most scholars believe that the final leaf of the original manuscript was lost, and that the ending which appears in English versions today (verses 9-20) was supplied during the second century. [ BibleResearcher]

 

Even the internal evidence militates against this addition:

 

The internal evidence for the shorter ending (2) is decidedly against its being genuine. Besides containing a high percentage of non-Markan words, its rhetorical tone differs totally from the simple style of Mark's Gospel. [bruce Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament (Stuttgart, 1971), pages 122-126.]

 

More info:

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetbible-researcher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/endmark.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetbible-researcher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/endmark.html[/url]

 

So, by the sound of it, either you two insist that those verses were not corruption, that they are part of the scripture and therefore part of Christianity and take the poison test OR admit that that part of the Bible are indeed a clear evidence of corruption in the Bible.. Which one and which way you want to go? You tell me..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Let me tell you something about Ahmad Deedat: this man lived in South Africa during white minority rule. Many people who have been oppressed and bullied often become oppressors and bullies themselves (israeli Jews are an example of this). Ahmad Deedat grew up in a society which taught that anyone who was not white was trash and white missionaries used to spread lies about Islam in those days. The education and quality of life of non-whites in those days was inferior and that could not be denied, so is it surprising that he uses his religion to make himself superior in some way and thus attacks the religion of the oppressor? The majority of Muslims in this country denounce his views because he was disrespecting other religions and attacking them for no reason, especially since no one was attacking Islam (except for the white missionaries). He clearly had an inferiority complex.

 

Samanta, did you ever personally meet Sh. Ahmad Deedat or that was based on some third party biased opinion? I can definitely say that the above part about the sh. suffering from some kind of inferiority compleax is totally wrong. I’ll let you on to something, a Muslim only feels inferior to scholars, people of knowledge, pious people,etc but he would never feel inferior to disbelievers, oppressors and corruptors..take my word for it..

 

Here’s a little bit of history of Mark 16 (please check and verify if you doubt this). Not long ago, some highest eminent of Bible scholars from just about every denomination of Christianity got together to produce as close to original version of the Bible. They unanimously agreed that Mark 16:9-20 were not part of the scripture based on evidence from oldest manuscripts & the verses were omitted, and the RSV was published.

Strangely, the verses appeared again in the next revision of RSV, why? Well to know why, I’ll let Sh. Ahmad Deedat himself explain it to you, he’ll talk about Mark 16 somewhere in the middle of the clip…check it out and verify it..

Edited by RAHIMI

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Look, God is defined by certain attributes and human is defined by certain attributes. God is allknowing, free of any need etc, human is generally clueless among most things and always in need of something like air and food. Saying that someone is allknowing and clueless, or immortal and mortal, free of need and needy at the same time is, sad to say, pinnacle of stupidity..think about it..or are you saying god stopped being god and became human and later became god again?

 

Christian doctrine is very clear on this point, Jesus is a Divine Person with two natures, a Divine nature and a human nature. When Christ incarnated into human form, His Divine nature did not disappear, how could it? Nor was His human nature absorbed to become Divine nature. Nor was there a mixing between the Divine and human natures to create a third nature. Instead, both natures remained separate and distinct, but were perfectly united by the wisdom and omnipotence of God.

 

This is what we believe, and you obviously don't, but at least accept this as our belief and try to understand it for what it is. Because we can't have a serious dialogue if you insist on attacking a caricature of what Christians supposedly believe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
They unanimously agreed that Mark 16:9-20 were not part of the scripture based on evidence from oldest manuscripts & the verses were omitted, and the RSV was published.

 

Just as an aside, did those scholars unanimously agree that Jesus was crucified?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Christian doctrine is very clear on this point, Jesus is a Divine Person with two natures, a Divine nature and a human nature. When Christ incarnated into human form, His Divine nature did not disappear, how could it? Nor was His human nature absorbed to become Divine nature. Nor was there a mixing between the Divine and human natures to create a third nature. Instead, both natures remained separate and distinct, but were perfectly united by the wisdom and omnipotence of God.

This is what we believe, and you obviously don't, but at least accept this as our belief and try to understand it for what it is. Because we can't have a serious dialogue if you insist on attacking a caricature of what Christians supposedly believe.

 

Slowly run that again if you don't mind, first: Do you believe that Jesus pbuh is god or son of god?

 

Just as an aside, did those scholars unanimously agree that Jesus was crucified?

I don't really know, you should get hold of RSV and find out.

All I know is, most of the disciples had gone off on the day of crucifixion, and the disciples who were there watched it from a distance..

 

p.s How about responding to points raised, such as Mark 16? Out and In again in RSV versions in the clip above? Is the live webcast is still on?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Slowly run that again if you don't mind, first: Do you believe that Jesus pbuh is god or son of god?

 

By being the "Son" Jesus is like the Father in all ways, the only way we can distinguish the Father from the Son is by the fact that the Son proceeds from the Father. So Jesus is both "Son of God" and "God" by virtue of His Divine Nature.

I don't really know, you should get hold of RSV and find out.

 

Then let me inform you that there is a consensus among scholars, both liberal and conservative, that Jesus was crucified.

 

All I know is, most of the disciples had gone off on the day of crucifixion, and the disciples who were there watched it from a distance..

 

How do you know this? If you're trying to use the Bible as a source you have to clarify your criteria for authenticity. By what process are you determining that one part of the NT is reliable and another is not? Is there even a method or are you just going by faith, i.e. what seems to conform to your Islamic world view is what's true?

 

The crucifixion was the public execution of a public figure. From the Jewish leaders, to the commoners, to the Roman guards, to the disciples present at the execution, all were familiar with what Jesus looked like. You have some serious explaining to do if you want to suggest Jesus was not crucified.

 

p.s How about responding to points raised, such as Mark 16? Out and In again in RSV versions in the clip above? Is the live webcast is still on?

 

Suppose the original ending of Mark's gospel was lost, and that what we have ends with the angel telling the women Christ is raised from the dead. How does this change anything that Christians believe?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rahimi,

 

I do not deny that the Old Testament and New Testament have inconsistencies and I touched on this in detail in my CRUCIFIXION: QURAN VS BIBLE post which I asked you to have a look at.

 

But what is in this passage of Mark is in line with teachings of Jesus, although we know it is not in the earliest manuscripts. This passage is about faith. So the fact that some Christians handle snakes or heal the sick successfully [things alluded to in this passage] is a testament to their faith. Bibles which include this passage make the reader aware so they can decide whether or not to take it seriously.

 

It is not a test, everyone has there own level of faith, and those who have lots of faith succeed in their healings, etc. Just because David went to war, does not mean that every Christian who reads it needs to do likewise. And again, Bibles which include this passage make the reader aware so they can decide whether or not to take it seriously.

 

If Mr. Deedat is such a reputable scholar, why does he refer to a bad forgery such as the ‘gospel of Barnabas’? All that I've heard about Ahmad Deedat comes from South African Muslims, some who met him. He also went after Hinduism, by the way. But why is it necessary for scholars to prove/disprove the Bible as if it gives authority to the Quran?

 

If Muslims only feel inferior to scholars and the pious explain to me why many South African Muslims of colour still have inferiority complexes from the old days of apartheid? I have Muslim friends, neighbours and relatives – I know what I am talking about. Apartheid was traumatic.

Neither you nor I know what was really going on in his mind, only God knows.

 

Neither the Quran or the Bible are the infallible word of God, because they have been compiled by men! We cannot deny the records of lost surahs and a few questionable verses in the Quran.

 

“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye, and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?†Luke 6:41

 

Maybe not a speck, but you get my point, no?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If Muslims only feel inferior to scholars and the pious explain to me why many South African Muslims of colour still have inferiority complexes from the old days of apartheid?

 

Because people all over the world are influenced by their surroundings, sadly enough.

 

Neither the Quran or the Bible are the infallible word of God, because they have been compiled by men! We cannot deny the records of lost surahs and a few questionable verses in the Quran.

 

Firstly, please do not make such statements on Gawaher. We welcome Christians and all non-Muslims to learn about Islam, to ask questions, and debate with Muslims and with each other, but not to make such condemning statements.

 

Secondly, I've been on this forum for 4 years and in all of that time, I've seen every single "misconception" that non-Muslims could produce about the Qur'an, including that bit about the Sana'a manuscripts. The only thing that's been clear all of this time is that people who do not speak Arabic, who have not read the Qur'an, will pick up an English translation and, failing to make sense of it, conclude that it's the fault of the scripture and not their inability.

 

You are free to bring up these so-called "questionable" verses and I will be glad to address each one. But I ask that you be sincere to yourself, and only do so if you are willing to learn.

 

Salam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lux in Tenebris, you've said again and again that there were people who witnessed the crucifiction of Jesus and that it could not be the way the Qur'an told the story. Again, I have no interest in targetting Christianity, but I will defend the Qur'an.

 

I ask a simple question. Are you of the belief that there are things God is unable to do?

 

Salam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I ask a simple question. Are you of the belief that there are things God is unable to do?

 

Redeem, the issue is not over whether God can or can't do something, but over what really happened. Based off the evidence this much can be said, (1) Jesus was executed via crucifixion and (2) His followers were convinced He resurrected.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Redeem, the issue is not over whether God can or can't do something, but over what really happened. Based off the evidence this much can be said, (1) Jesus was executed via crucifixion and (2) His followers were convinced He resurrected.

 

Lux, according to the Bible NT , all the disciples left except Peter, is this correct?

 

Well, Lux is not here, so let me answer my own question, Matthew 26 tells the story of the day Jesuspbuh was arrested,

 

All the disciples fled:

56 But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled.†Then all the disciples deserted him and fled.

except Peter:

74 Then he began to call down curses, and he swore to them, “I don’t know the man!â€

Immediately a rooster crowed. 75 Then Peter remembered the word Jesus had spoken: “Before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times.†And he went outside and wept bitterly.

Source: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetbiblegateway(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/passage/?search=Matthew%2026&version=NIV"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetbiblegateway(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/passage/?searc...amp;version=NIV[/url]

Edited by RAHIMI

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Because people all over the world are influenced by their surroundings, sadly enough.

A scholar is still human. What makes you think he (Ahmad Deedat) could not have been influenced by society? If he is such an esteemed scholar then why did he refer to a bad forgery to prove his point?

 

Rahimi, I am not trying to disrespect Islam or the Quran. If you can raise questions about the Bible then why I am I not allowed to raise questions about the Quran? Tell me about all the misconceptions, send me an e-mail help me see your point of view. I joined this forum to be enlightened.

 

So, the whole point of discussing the authenticity of the Bible is to say that Jesus foretold the coming of Muhammad (pbuh) but it was removed. People hung on to Jesus' every word. If he said another would come after him, would his disciples and believers not have expected that? Would they not have been looking forward to the coming of another prophet? To say another prophet is coming is a big thing what would be the point of removing it?

 

Whether the Muhammad (pbuh) was prophesied about or not if he is a real prophet then we don't need to prove or disprove it. The evidence is the Quran.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A scholar is still human. What makes you think he (Ahmad Deedat) could not have been influenced by society? If he is such an esteemed scholar then why did he refer to a bad forgery to prove his point?

 

Salam, there are others writings that were excluded from the current compilation of the Bible, check out "Banned from the Bible" documentary..and the Sh. did not only refer to Barnabas for source.. if you follow by question above, I'll illustrate this point IA..

 

Rahimi, I am not trying to disrespect Islam or the Quran. If you can raise questions about the Bible then why I am I not allowed to raise questions about the Quran? Tell me about all the misconceptions, send me an e-mail help me see your point of view. I joined this forum to be enlightened.

So, the whole point of discussing the authenticity of the Bible is to say that Jesus foretold the coming of Muhammad (pbuh) but it was removed. People hung on to Jesus' every word. If he said another would come after him, would his disciples and believers not have expected that? Would they not have been looking forward to the coming of another prophet? To say another prophet is coming is a big thing what would be the point of removing it?

 

As I recall, you started this thread stating that "Muslims believe that the Bible foretold the coming of Muhammad pbuh" i.e his prophet hood, This is not a true statement. The fact of the matter is, the Bible has nothing to do with the belief of the prophethood of Muhammad pbuh by Muslims.

 

THread removed? I'm not aware of that..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jews would argue that Jesus (as) is not in the Old Testament at all. And I have studied the Torah (as it is in today) and many other Jewish manuscripts and Jesus (as) simply does not fulfill the Jewish Messiah prophecy. Now I believe, as a Muslim, that the Torah and Gospel have been changed. And also there are other "lost" Gospels that have been found that greatly resemble what Islam teaches.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Redeem, the issue is not over whether God can or can't do something, but over what really happened. Based off the evidence this much can be said, (1) Jesus was executed via crucifixion and (2) His followers were convinced He resurrected.

 

Ah, but the issue very much IS whether or not God can do something. :sl: Let's assume for a second that you are willing to consider the credibility of the Qur'an. If God says that He made it "appear" that they crucified Jesus, and you have hundreds of people saying that they DID witness the death of Jesus...

 

Is it farfetched to conclude that they believe so because it was, as the Qur'an explicitly states, made to appear so to them?

 

Of course, you don't believe the Qur'an's words, so you won't believe it didn't happen. But God is able to do all things, including making people think that an event happened right before their very eyes.

 

Salam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Redeem, the issue is not over whether God can or can't do something, but over what really happened. Based off the evidence this much can be said, (1) Jesus was executed via crucifixion and (2) His followers were convinced He resurrected.

actually based off history outside of the Bible we have no actual proof that Jesus (as) even existed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As I recall, you started this thread stating that "Muslims believe that the Bible foretold the coming of Muhammad pbuh" i.e his prophet hood, This is not a true statement. The fact of the matter is, the Bible has nothing to do with the belief of the prophethood of Muhammad pbuh by Muslims.

 

Thread removed? I'm not aware of that..

 

I agree that the Bible should have nothing to do with confirming the prophet's prophet hood and that is why at the end I wrote that a true believer knows, they don't need 'confirmation'. Many people do like to claim that Jesus said Muhammad pbuh would come after him as the 'peryklitos' (or Ahmad in Arabic) and use the NT verses out of context. I never claimed he was a false prophet my intention was to put these verses into context.

 

I am well aware of these extra-Biblical gospels and other writings. I have watched that programme a few times.

And also there are other "lost" Gospels that have been found that greatly resemble what Islam teaches.

Are you sure?

 

- Peter: scholars and palaeographers believe that the gospel of Peter is pseudepigraphical (bearing the name of a person who did not write it). It even speaks of the resurrection of Jesus and a talking cross which appeared from the tomb.

- Judas: Claims that Jesus asked Judas (the man who some claim was crucified and not Jesus) betray him.

- Mary Magdalene: This gospel was used by Gnostics whose beliefs might resemble ‘New Age’ beliefs of some very ‘liberal’ forms of Sufism, such as what is taught by Inayat Khan. This does not conform at all with Islamic beliefs and you might consider what is in this gospel shirk.

- Philip: contains the sayings of Jesus and is also in line with the Gnostics.

- Thomas: also contains the sayings of Jesus (many of which are in the New Test.) and is also in line with the Gnostics.

- Barnabas: A medieval Islamist forgery which I’ve previously written about it on this post. Barnabas was actually one of the early ‘church fathers’. Epistle and Acts of Barnabas are also considered to be pseudepigraphical and they conform to mainstream Christian beliefs.

- Bathelomew: Claims Jesus died and was resurrected.

- James: (Son of Joseph/Jesus’ brother) This protoevangelum by the brother of Jesus tells the story of the nativity, i.e. his birth.

- Gospel of Nicodemus (Acts of Pilate, the Roman governor of Judea): Asserts that Jesus was crucified, buried and resurrected.

- Secret gospel of Mark: letter attributed to Clement of Alexandria addressed to Theodore.

 

Are you still so sure? ? ?

 

Now I believe, as a Muslim, that the Torah and Gospel have been changed.

 

You have the right to believe what the Quran says, this is what faith is.

 

The Torah and the other Books of the Old Testament as they are available to us now match up with the Dead Sea Scroll versions (which date back to the second century BC) of all of these books, however in some cases such as Psalms, what we have is shorther than what is in the scrolls.

 

The 'Gospel' is not one my friend. There are four in the Bible; that is why they are not identical word for word because they are the accounts of four individuals.

 

Jesus (as) simply does not fulfill the Jewish Messiah prophecy

 

So you believe the Bible has been edited because the Quran says that. The Quran also says that Jesus is the Messiah (Al Masih) but you do not believe it. Interesting...

So you have come to your conclusion after studing Jewish scripture which you said is "corrupt", and the New Testament accounts of Jesus' life which you also said are "corrupt". If they are "corrupt" sources in your view, why did you refer to them in order to make this statement?

 

actually based off history outside of the Bible we have no actual proof that Jesus (as) even existed

First Century writers have referred to Jesus including Josephus and Mara Bar-Serapion. There are also the above extra-Biblical writings.

The Talmud (Jewish writing) asserts that Jesus was a false massiah.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×