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Ok I see what you are getting at but do I need to go and cherry pick verses from the Quran that support violence or war. I could but I don't see the point. They were fighting in the chapter you sighted at the command of God. Now bolth Christianity and Islam have there radicals. Bolth sides can find support from their Holy Book. You know that and I know that. Do we realy want to go there? I don't think that is really needed. No God does contain those atributes as I stated. God is also to be feared. If one does not fear God one is a fool.

 

Working, there is no confusion about the chapters that I and you quoted, according to the Bible Saul was commanded to butcher men,women,children, and even animals, Saul disobeyed and god regretted his own earlier decision.and how about the verses further up the thread about a couple of jewish lads killing thousands of Palestenians with an oxgoad and fresh jaw bone of a donkey? Is any of these worthy to be coming from god?

 

We might not understand God's reason with our limited human mind but in the end it leads to God's just ends.

We can understand when the Bible itself declares that god is not the author of confusion and that the false hands of the scribes had turned the truth into falsehood. It is obvious that the notions of the chapter is against other parts of the Bible, if god is all knowing then he simply would not have contradictions in his scripture, let alone having regrets..

 

Bolth sides can find support from their Holy Book. You know that and I know that. Do we realy want to go there? I don't think that is really needed.

If you consider that it is important that we should seek out the truth no matter what, then you should take the position of evaluating all evidence available. Which scripture is worthy to be uncorrupted words of God? We can't have both since the Quran itself declares that the Bible was falsified by men. Why don't you go ahead and quoted the verses from the Quran that you have issues with? IA you will get explanations and clarifications that would make sense..

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PropellerAds

Rahimi, Before I post the verses that I have a issue with from the Quran, I want to give you this to think about on the repent part of the scripture posted above.

 

Repenteth. God cannot change: but he often acts exteriorly as one who repents. He alters his conduct when men prove rebellious. (St. Justin Martyr, p. 22.) --- Grieved. Hebrew, "indignant." (Calmet) --- He was sorry to think that Saul would now lose his temporal, and perhaps his eternal crown. (Salien) --- "The choice of Judas and of Saul, do not prove that God is ignorant of future events, but rather that he is a Judge of the present." (St. Jerome in Ezechiel ii.)

(This is from the Haydock commentary).

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Ok now for verses from the Quran that I hold issue with.

 

2:191-193 Kill them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out because persecution and injustice are worse than killing. but do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they fight you there; But if they fight you kill them. Such is the reward of those who block faith. But if they cease, then Allah is often forgiving, most merciful. And keep fighting them until there is no more persecution and injustice. And justice and faith in Allah continues; But if they cease, let there be no hostile acts except against those who practice injustice.

 

4:74 Solet those who preferthe next life over the present life, battle on in the cause of Allah. To him who fights in Allah's cause whether he is killed or victorious, soon We shall give him a great reward.

 

4:95 Believerswho sit at home, except teh disabled; and recieve no hurt of fight, are not qual to thosewho struggle and fight in the cause of Allahwith their goods and their person. Allah has granted a position higher to those who struggle and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home. To each Allah has promised good reward: But Allah has given a special position to those who struggle and fight above those who sit at home with a great reward

 

8:12 Remember when your Lord revealedthe Messageto the angels; Verily, I am with you; Give strength to the believers; I will bring about terror intothe hearts of the disbelievers;So you strike above their necks and hit hard over all of their finger-tips and toes.

 

9:29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah or the last day; do not consider what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden as forbidden; and do not accept the way of truth, even if they are of the People of the Book, until they pay jizya by hand in a humble expression.

 

18:65-81 This I won't post due to length but it seems to speak of maybe honor killings. This sticks out to me because I have not read this in any Jewish or Christian encounter of Musa. Nore have I ever heard of the man Khidr.

 

48:17 No blame or sin is there on the blind, nor is there blame on the lame, nor on one ill if he does not join the war: And he who obeys Allah and His Messanger-Allah will admit him to gardens beneath which rivers flow; And he who turns back, Allah will punish him wiht a painful penalty.

 

Then there are some from the Hadith

 

 

Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

 

Bukhari (52:256) The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." I also heard the Prophet saying, "The institution of Hima is invalid except for Allah and His Apostle."

 

 

Rahimi, I am sorry for such length. These passages cause me consern. I look forward to hearing your explanation.

 

God's blessings and peace to you

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Salam, workingman:

First let me address this:

 

[11] It repenteth me that I have made Saul king: for he hath forsaken me, and hath not executed my commandments. And Samuel was grieved, and he cried unto the Lord all night.

11 “I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions.†Samuel was angry, and he cried out to the LORD all that night.

From both quote, we found the Bible clearly and explicit states that god 'regretted' his decision. Now the obvious question is, can God regret? the obvious answer is no, because this would go against His nature (as stated in other parts of the Bible).

 

I'm sure others would offer clarifications for verses that you had listed, here a short snippets:

Part 1

Part2:

I will address the hadith later IA..

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Rahimi,

 

Ok, I got to watch the links finally. Now I respect Islams message of peace but the loud vocal minority says otherwise. These same verese I have used in a violent context. This is not I think a majority opinion and usage though.

 

As for the second video clip there was no mention of the hiding of the military targets in civilian zones and other non combatant type zones. Also no mention of the human shields that were used by there govt's. putting their civilians in harms way. War is not nice, pritty, or humain on any level. I have seen it first hand and it is ugly.

 

Is the US goverment perfect? No. Are errors made? Yes. I'm not going to bother with Isral that is a who problem in and of it self.

 

So what about those Muslims who use these verses though to ok there violence?

 

As a counter what about the Christians being persecuted and arrested in Dearborn MI? This group did not do anything illeagal.

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=fEPod-hxD7g&feature=related"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=fEPod-hxD7g...feature=related[/url]

 

or

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=ID1_Sc7lZ2w&feature=related"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=ID1_Sc7lZ2w...feature=related[/url]

 

Now keep in mind the US is not under Sharia law.

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Rahimi,

Ok, I got to watch the links finally. Now I respect Islams message of peace but the loud vocal minority says otherwise. These same verese I have used in a violent context. This is not I think a majority opinion and usage though.

Wman, I thought we have passed the part about weird Muslims/weird Christians, no? Islam is obviously not about some Muslims or some vocal loud minority of Muslims. The truth is about, which is the actual uncorrupted words of God and which one is the religion that God wants us to live our lives.

You have issues with certain verses of the Quran, as we have seen in the clips above how those verses can be taken out of context and twisted around..Hence the need for anyone who is seeking the truth to get legitimate references and have certain level of intellectual honesty. By this I mean, how could a Christian is not having problem when the Bible clearly and explicitly talks about a god chosen King killing not just men and women but also killing children and animals but having problem with the same in other scriptures (albeit trough vague/out of context interpretations)?

 

I watched first few seconds of the clips, these two guys are just troublemakers with no brain..I'm surprise that the brothers there showed so much restraint..Anyway, I could touch on the hadith about the war with the Jews if you want to go there, do you?

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Wman, I thought we have passed the part about weird Muslims/weird Christians, no? Islam is obviously not about some Muslims or some vocal loud minority of Muslims. The truth is about, which is the actual uncorrupted words of God and which one is the religion that God wants us to live our lives.

You have issues with certain verses of the Quran, as we have seen in the clips above how those verses can be taken out of context and twisted around..Hence the need for anyone who is seeking the truth to get legitimate references and have certain level of intellectual honesty. By this I mean, how could a Christian is not having problem when the Bible clearly and explicitly talks about a god chosen King killing not just men and women but also killing children and animals but having problem with the same in other scriptures (albeit trough vague/out of context interpretations)?

 

I watched first few seconds of the clips, these two guys are just troublemakers with no brain..I'm surprise that the brothers there showed so much restraint..Anyway, I could touch on the hadith about the war with the Jews if you want to go there, do you?

 

Rahimi, Ya I think we have passed it. I did not imply it was just stating what I have read and heard. Yes I said how I can see that they can be out of context. The same has to be done with the Scriptures. Some times it takes more than one chapter to do it. Bolth sides can be taken out of context as you said and I agree.

 

I have a diferent view of these groups. In the clips I posted. I did not think they showed much restraint at all. In the first clip they tried to ask a simple question and they were not allowed. In the US it is not illegal to hand out tracks or street preach. Personaly if I would of been struck (camera) I don't think I would of held much restraint as I would of viewed it as assult and defended my self. But that is neither here nor there.

 

I would not mind to hear about the hadith about the war on jews but I don't want to derail the tread to much from the OP. So unless OP gives consent maybe on a new thread.

 

What about the other Hadith's I adressed?

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Working, there is no confusion about the chapters that I and you quoted, according to the Bible Saul was commanded to butcher men,women,children, and even animals, Saul disobeyed and god regretted his own earlier decision.and how about the verses further up the thread about a couple of jewish lads killing thousands of Palestenians with an oxgoad and fresh jaw bone of a donkey? Is any of these worthy to be coming from god?

 

 

in the Book of Job, God destroys the family and livelihood of a righteous man (Job). The main speaker argues with friends as to how this is possible. An angel comes in the chapter 38

 

Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

 

Upon what are its bases grounded? or who laid the corner stone thereof, When the morning stars praised me together, and all the sons of God made a joyful melody? Who shut up the sea with doors, when it broke forth as issuing out of the womb: When I made a cloud the garment thereof, and wrapped it in a mist as in swaddling bands? I set my bounds around it, and made it bars and doors:

 

And I said: Hitherto thou shalt come, and shalt go no further, and here thou shalt break thy swelling waves. Didst thou since thy birth command the morning, and shew the dawning of the day its place? [13] And didst thou hold the extremities of the earth shaking them, and hast thou shaken the ungodly out of it? The seal shall be restored as clay, and shall stand as a garment: From the wicked their light shall be taken away, and the high arm shall be broken.

 

Hast thou entered into the depths of the sea, and walked in the lowest parts of the deep? Have the gates of death been opened to thee, and hast thou seen the darksome doors? Hast thou considered the breadth of the earth? tell me, if thou knowest all things? Where is the way where light dwelleth, and where is the place of darkness: That thou mayst bring every thing to its own bounds, and understand the paths of the house thereof.

 

Didst thou know then that thou shouldst be born? and didst thou know the number of thy days? Hast thou entered into the storehouses of the snow, or has thou beheld the treasures of the hail: Which I have prepared for the time of the enemy, against the day of battle and war? By what way is the light spread, and heat divided upon the earth? Who gave a course to violent showers, or a way for noisy thunder:

 

That it should rain on the earth without man in the wilderness, where no mortal dwelleth: That it should fill the desert and desolate land, and should bring forth green grass? Who is the father of rain? or who begot the drops of dew? Out of whose womb came the ice; and the frost from heaven who hath gendered it? The waters are hardened like a stone, and the surface of the deep is congealed.

 

Shalt thou be able to join together the shining stars the Pleiades, or canst thou stop the turning about of Arcturus? Canst thou bring forth the day star in its time, and make the evening star to rise upon the children of the earth? Dost thou know the order of heaven, and canst thou set down the reason thereof on the earth? Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that an abundance of waters may cover thee? Canst thou send lightnings, and will they go, and will they return and say to thee: Here we are?

 

Who hath put wisdom in the heart of man? or who gave the #### understanding? Who can declare the order of the heavens, or who can make the harmony of heaven to sleep? When was the dust poured on the earth, and the clods fastened together? Wilt thou take the prey for the lioness, and satisfy the appetite of her whelps, When they couch in the dens and lie in wait in holes?

 

Who provideth food for the raven, when her young ones cry to God, wandering about, because they have no meat?

 

or in isaias 45:9

 

Woe to him that gainsayeth his maker, a sherd of the earthen pots: shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it: What art thou making, and thy work is without hands?

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in the Book of Job, God destroys the family and livelihood of a righteous man (Job). The main speaker argues with friends as to how this is possible. An angel comes in the chapter 38

or in isaias 45:9

 

The story of Job pbuh is well known in Islam, rather that God, it was actually Satan who was responsible for the evil things that befell Job pbuh. I fail to see the connection of what you quoted to 1 Samuel 15. Does this mean that you stand by 1 Samuel 15 and see nothing out of ordinary or wrong with God commanding a bunch of people committing massacres and murdering civilians which include children and animals? and later god regretted his decision of appointing Saul to do the job?

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But the triumpher in israel will not spare, and will not be moved to repentance: for he is not a man that he should repent.

 

the very area you quote says quite clearly the God does not change, regret or repent. 1 Samuel 15:29

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samuel is the regreting one.

Then I take it that the order to massacre civilians including women, children and animals is completely legitimate and in accordance with that the Bible and Christianity teaches?

 

the very area you quote says quite clearly the God does not change, regret or repent. 1 Samuel 15:29

Now I'm confused, the order was issued by god to Samuel pbuh to appoint Saul, i.e the appointment of Saul has nothing to d with Samuel pbuh in the first place, right? i.e if he didn't appoint Saul it would him(samuel) that is the disobedience one right? How do you explain that?

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(posting to debate about defending God)

 

If you want the actions of the Old Testament to be defended, please ask someone from Judaism who is left to defend these texts. In Christianity they are but a historical reference, as the New Testament replaces and overturns many of the rules, covenants, and guidelines. Personally, I don't see why Christians get so upset about this.

 

In fact, I don't see why a Christian would be so inclined to defend the actions stated above, since they happened before the abolishment of the blood rite. And as Christianity began by this action, its existence suggests that they can not do so.

 

 

See by the Light of Truth

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(posting to debate about defending God)

 

If you want the actions of the Old Testament to be defended, please ask someone from Judaism who is left to defend these texts. In Christianity they are but a historical reference, as the New Testament replaces and overturns many of the rules, covenants, and guidelines. Personally, I don't see why Christians get so upset about this.

 

In fact, I don't see why a Christian would be so inclined to defend the actions stated above, since they happened before the abolishment of the blood rite. And as Christianity began by this action, its existence suggests that they can not do so.

See by the Light of Truth

Interesting, I guess the reason could be that Jesus pbuh made it clear that he did not come to replace or abolish the laws of previous prophets pbut. It is clear that he said something along the line that every single letter or dot (from previous scripture i.e from Moses pnuh etc) is to be obeyed.

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Then I take it that the order to massacre civilians including women, children and animals is completely legitimate and in accordance with that the Bible and Christianity teaches?

 

In obedience to God? Certainly. Saul earned the displeasure of God by not sufficiently destroying the philistines. Just as Abraham was justified in sacrificing his son if God demanded it.

 

Now I'm confused, the order was issued by god to Samuel pbuh to appoint Saul, i.e the appointment of Saul has nothing to d with Samuel pbuh in the first place, right? i.e if he didn't appoint Saul it would him(samuel) that is the disobedience one right? How do you explain that?

 

Would you be disheartened if you knew your leader set himself up against God?

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In obedience to God? Certainly. Saul earned the displeasure of God by not sufficiently destroying the philistines.

So I take it that, your understanding is, god did order Saul to commit genocide by killing men, women, children and animals?

 

Just as Abraham was justified in sacrificing his son if God demanded it.

And which son would that be, is it Isaac pbuh?

Would you be disheartened if you knew your leader set himself up against God?

Of course, but I would also keep in mind that God is Faultless and All Knowing therefore He would not contradict Himself by saying one thing here and another thing there in the same scripture..

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So I take it that, your understanding is, god did order Saul to commit genocide by killing men, women, children and animals?

 

As I said, yes. That saul did not completely annhiliate the Amalekites is what earned God's disfavor. His sparing of the king and the best of the sheeps and cattle was disobedience.

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As I said, yes. That saul did not completely annhiliate the Amalekites is what earned God's disfavor. His sparing of the king and the best of the sheeps and cattle was disobedience.

So according to you & the Bible, Saul did kill the women and children as he spared only the king and the best of sheep and cattle?

And what abouth the other questions? Who was it that Abraham pbuh tried to sacrifice?

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So according to you & the Bible, Saul did kill the women and children as he spared only the king and the best of sheep and cattle?

 

Yes. Did not God also drown the world except for Noah and his ark; what is wiping out a tribe in comparison?

 

 

Who was it that Abraham pbuh tried to sacrifice?

 

Isaac

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Yes. Did not God also drown the world except for Noah and his ark; what is wiping out a tribe in comparison?

Ahh, I geddit. The Jews, being the chosen people, can do whatever they want. SO I take this would mean that the present day Jews are doing god's work by killing, oppressing and chasing the Palestenians out of their homes and land?

 

Isaac

How could this be when the Bible says 'your first born'?. Ishmael pbuh is Abraham's pbuh first born son not Isaac pbuh..

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"And, more importantly, how can something be "truly God" and "truly man," when "truly God" trumps "truly man" and what does that mean in terms of a redemptive sacrifice of one's own self, even if that self is just a lesser part? I cut off my arm as a sacrifice to myself in order to save you from my wrath? Is that the thrust here? Because I require a sacrifice in order to save you (a blood sacrifice, no less) and that sacrifice has to be "pure" in order for it to work in my mind, I therefore cut off my own arm (a "pure" arm) in order to satisfy my own requirments, therefore making the requirement larger than myself?"

 

Har har! The Romans really botched the whole Jesus mythology didn't they?

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I respect Ahmed Deedat, he knows how to quote from the Bible

but he lacks the understanding of how to interpret what he quotes…

The Bible is a spiritual Book (with several layers of understanding).

To understand the Bible (especially the NT) requires spiritual revelation.

The first spiritual revelation often results in a person being born again (from above).

When this happens, God's Spirit is placed inside the person.

He does the following for the person: guides, sanctifies, reveals spiritual (and other) truths.

He also imparts spiritual gifts.

Really powerful ones are imparted to those having the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

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There is a word, in english, known as equivocation. It means to give something a new name in hopes to hide what it means. I could tell you dirty means clean, justice means theft, or that love means hate; none of these are true, however. The only antidote is to equivocation is authority- for words it is dictionaries, for science it is scholars, and for the Bible it is the Church.

 

 

In Islam, there is no central authority, however? Perhaps that is why it has had never-ending civil war and factionalism since the death of Muhammed.

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