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There is a word, in english, known as equivocation. It means to give something a new name in hopes to hide what it means. I could tell you dirty means clean, justice means theft, or that love means hate; none of these are true, however. The only antidote is to equivocation is authority- for words it is dictionaries, for science it is scholars, and for the Bible it is the Church.

In Islam, there is no central authority, however? Perhaps that is why it has had never-ending civil war and factionalism since the death of Muhammed.

In Islam the central authority is the Quran which is free from human interference

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"And, more importantly, how can something be "truly God" and "truly man," when "truly God" trumps "truly man" and what does that mean in terms of a redemptive sacrifice of one's own self, even if that self is just a lesser part? I cut off my arm as a sacrifice to myself in order to save you from my wrath? Is that the thrust here? Because I require a sacrifice in order to save you (a blood sacrifice, no less) and that sacrifice has to be "pure" in order for it to work in my mind, I therefore cut off my own arm (a "pure" arm) in order to satisfy my own requirments, therefore making the requirement larger than myself?"

 

How can God be 'ONE' - what does that mean, is he sitting somewhere and we would recognise him as one person or is he everywhere and if he is what can that mean? How can this ONE person hear in the case of Islam the SAME prayers offered several times by millions of Muslims does he hear each prayer or does he pick one as a representative since the prayers are always the same?

 

The trouble with your arguments is that you are making your tiny mind the measure of all things and satisfying your need to find the Christian God unsatisfactory but without looking at your own faith with any kind of scepticism.

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How can God be 'ONE' - what does that mean, is he sitting somewhere and we would recognise him as one person or is he everywhere and if he is what can that mean? How can this ONE person hear in the case of Islam the SAME prayers offered several times by millions of Muslims does he hear each prayer or does he pick one as a representative since the prayers are always the same?

God is One it doesn't mean God is small by just being One but rather God is a great One, The One that created everything. Mankind is a creation of God and God is not a person. God is greater than human beings and has the capacity to do all things. God can hear all prayers because God is the knower of all things and can see everything we do and hide. You are a Christian so you believe that God created the earth and everything else but you can't seem to comprehend how God can listen to prayers of all people?

 

When we say God is one we are saying there is no other God we worship or no human being we worship - we only worship God alone. God is not belittled or made small because He is One. God is the creator of all things and we worship our One creator.

 

Hope that makes it clearer for you.

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How can God be 'ONE' - what does that mean, is he sitting somewhere and we would recognise him as one person or is he everywhere and if he is what can that mean? How can this ONE person hear in the case of Islam the SAME prayers offered several times by millions of Muslims does he hear each prayer or does he pick one as a representative since the prayers are always the same?

 

The trouble with your arguments is that you are making your tiny mind the measure of all things and satisfying your need to find the Christian God unsatisfactory but without looking at your own faith with any kind of scepticism.

 

"Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One,

Allah , the Eternal Refuge.

He neither begets nor is born,

Nor is there to Him any equivalent." (Qur'an, 112:1-4)

 

"And when Allah is mentioned alone, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter shrink with aversion, but when those [worshipped] other than Him are mentioned, immediately they rejoice." (Qur'an, 39:45)

 

"Say, "Look at all the signs in the Heavens and the Earth." All the proofs and all the warnings can never help people who decided to disbelieve." (Qur'an, 10:101)

 

"Say, [O Muhammad], "If there had been with Him [other] gods, as they say, then they [each] would have sought to the Owner of the Throne a way.

Exalted is He and high above what they say by great sublimity.

The seven heavens and the earth and whatever is in them exalt Him. And there is not a thing except that it exalts [ Allah ] by His praise, but you do not understand their [way of] exalting. Indeed, He is ever Forbearing and Forgiving."(Qur'an, 17:42-44)

 

"God has never begotten a son. Nor was there any other god beside Him. Otherwise, each god would have declared independence with his creations, and they would have competed with each other for dominance. GOD be glorified; far above their claims." (Qur'an, 23:91)

 

So, we can't imagine Him. He is not around us but upon His throne and the throne is upon Heaven.

Please, take a look:

 

 

Edited by fajr_tear

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Hi all

 

I thought the whole concept of god is that he is "Omnipotent" IE He can do anything he chooses?

 

trinity is no match for omnipotence as much as being a single entity.

 

but the question is can he make a rock so big he cant lift it hehe. ( dont get serious its just to lighten the mood )

 

Peace all

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In Islam the central authority is the Quran which is free from human interference

A book cannot be self authoritative; it’s the representative of God that makes it the pillar of faith. In this case it's Mohammed who deems the Quran to be the word of God. So in order to determine the truth the origin of Mohammed’s inspiration should be examined.

Edited by CarlosTheJackal

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Oldest Bible found in Palestine - Jesus was a servant of God and not God himself - Trinity False
 

Edited by Absolute truth

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Oldest Bible found in Palestine - Jesus was a servant of God and not God himself - Trinity False[using large font size is not allowed]

 

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=ogXWwKcHPNc&feature=feedf"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=ogXWwKcHPNc&feature=feedf[/url]

 

 

Wow this thread is still going.?! Do we have a better source than youtube? It can be a good source but also a bunch of you know what.

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I don't think Christians ever claimed that Jesus was God.

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I don't think Christians ever claimed that Jesus was God.

In the Bible there are 80+ verses which teach ...

Jesus is God, Jesus is equal to Father God, Jesus is the Creator,

Jesus is the Sustainer (now), Jesus is the Giver of eternal life, etc.

 

Several Christians in the New Testament taught the above.

Many many millions since have believed the above.[using large font size is not allowed]

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I don't think Christians ever claimed that Jesus was God.

 

Hmmmmmmmmm. Yes Christians do tech that Jesus is God. I thought that was the major dividing line between Jewdisim and Christianity. Christians claim Jesus as the Messia. Hence the whole Trinity. Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

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I suppose it depends on your perspective. Most Christians would say that Jesus is the 'personification' of God . God is the father and Jesus is the son and the Holy ghost or Holy Spirit is just that (whatever that means - maybe the Ghayb or absolute unknown in Sufi terms)

It's all a matter of conceptualisation. I think it's true to say that fewer and fewer people these days would say that God is a very big man sitting on His throne in the sky. This is childish thinking to most people in the twenty-first century but common thousands of years ago.

Also Jesus was guilty of the 'theological sin' of claiming to be God in order to shock people and so on. Hallaj said "I am the truth" and they killed him for it. Extreme heresy, as it would have been seen. Only madmen say things like that today, in spite of the possible existential truth thereof.

 

kb

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Also Jesus was guilty of the 'theological sin' of claiming to be God in order to shock people and so on.

The New Testament claims that Jesus' incredible miracles (totally unmatched by anyone else in history),

and His resurrection from the dead, proved without a doubt that He was/is God.

Of special note would be His calming of the turbulent sea, and walking on the sea.

All of these miraculous happenings convinced many people that whatever He claimed was indeed true.

And He indeed claimed to be God, equal to Father God, etc.

Beyond this, God's Spirit has confirmed this fact spiritually to many millions of people since then.

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I think Jesus was more humble than you think. But he was passionate and sometimes got carried away with his sermons, just like many Muslims and other God believers continue to do, fervently today.

I personally think he was a very special prophet, a very charismatic preacher of his time. I also believe that he, using the belief/power of the Lord - whatever you want to call it, that he was able to effectively heal people. There were and always have been doctors of one sort or another.

With regard to other so-called miracles, I'm afraid I don't believe in them. You know how people gossip and those who were especially impressed by Jesus simply attributed powers to him which he never really possessed and people believed, oh yes they believed because the wanted and needed salvation!

Nobody has any proof one way or the other about all of this, so all it comes down to is simply a matter of belief and faith (which people continue to broadcast even today - as if they could possibly know!)

 

A lot of hot air, so far as I can see.

 

kb

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Yes Jesus was humble. Jesus was also not afraid to call a spade a spade. Look at scripture with the money changers in the temple. See St. Matthew 21:12-13. Since the topic of miracles. Lets look at a relitivly modern one. What do you make out of the Shroud Turin.

 

KeithBarry

I suppose it depends on your perspective. Most Christians would say that Jesus is the 'personification' of God . God is the father and Jesus is the son and the Holy ghost or Holy Spirit is just that (whatever that means - maybe the Ghayb or absolute unknown in Sufi terms)

 

I don't think that most Christians would say Jesus is the personification of God. This flyies in the face of basic Christian theology. The Trinity is huge. If Jesus is only the personification then one could not have the Trinity and The Virgin Mary would not be the Theotokis. She would just be another woman who's Son was killed by the Romans for no reason other than they were appeasing the Jews of the time by killing him for heresy. The Romans Pilot found no fault with Jesus and could have cared less about his claim.

 

Just my 2 cents.

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I don't think Christians ever claimed that Jesus was God.

 

majority claimed jesus is god. they call themselves trinitarians. there're 3 groups of us - trinity, twoness and unitary.

 

trinitarian christians believe both jesus and holy spirit are god ie god the son (jesus) is god the father is god the holy spirit - 3 gods in 1 god.

 

twoness christians also believe jesus is god. but they dont believe holy spirit is god. god the son (jesus) is god the father - 2 gods in 1 god.

 

unitarian christians dont believe jesus or the holy spirit is god. they believe in only one almighty god ie god the father.

 

you being judaism also believe in one god ie yahweh. right? :sl:

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I think Jesus was more humble than you think. But he was passionate and sometimes got carried away with his sermons, just like many Muslims and other God believers continue to do, fervently today.

I personally think he was a very special prophet, a very charismatic preacher of his time. I also believe that he, using the belief/power of the Lord - whatever you want to call it, that he was able to effectively heal people. There were and always have been doctors of one sort or another.

With regard to other so-called miracles, I'm afraid I don't believe in them. You know how people gossip and those who were especially impressed by Jesus simply attributed powers to him which he never really possessed and people believed, oh yes they believed because the wanted and needed salvation!

Nobody has any proof one way or the other about all of this, so all it comes down to is simply a matter of belief and faith (which people continue to broadcast even today - as if they could possibly know!)

 

A lot of hot air, so far as I can see.

 

kb

 

i somewhat agree with you. muslims believe jesus is a prophet while unitarians believe he's a very holy preacher. :sl:

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we've good information from trinitarians and unitarians viewpoint at this thread -

 

is jesus god? :sl:

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=734411&st=0&start=0&"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic...mp;start=0&[/url]

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I think you have a bit of a typo error there mate. It’s actually 3 persons - 1 God

 

There’s a difference in saying 3 gods and 3 persons…

 

my logic is this -

 

trinitarians believe jesus is god, holy spirit is god and father certainly is god.

hence jesus (god) = holy spirit (god) = father (god).

hence god = god= god = one and only almighty god.

hence 3 gods in 1 god.

 

dont think trinitarians wanna say jesus is god but in person or entity etc form likewise holy spirit and father.

if thats so then we gonna have jesus (person) = holy spirit (person) = father (person) = one and only almighty god??

ie 3 persons in 1 god??

 

god the father is never a person or entity etc. nope. :sl:

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It would be a contradiction to say 3 gods are 1 god, we believe in 1 God only.

 

3 persons of 1 substance. God is one i.e. a triune God.

 

God bless,

 

the dict says triune is -

(Christian Religious Writings / Theology) constituting three in one, esp the three persons in one God of the Trinity

n

1. a group of three

2. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology) (often capital) another word for Trinity

[tri- + -une, from Latin ūnus one]

triunity n

 

3 persons in 1 god? god the father a person? anyhow its up to you. god bless. :sl:

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Christians are supposed to believe in the Shema:

"The Lord our God, the Lord is one!" (Deuteronomy 6:4).

This indicates a personal relationship, and it also means

"the Lord alone" ... there is only one God.

 

God in the NT reveals Himself as having 3 Manifestations.

So we say, "One God in Three Persons".

 

Whether He is more or less than 3 Persons, He has revealed Himself as 3.

 

Would someone care to produce just one ancient manuscaript or Bible

that does not have the NT verses which indicate the 3 Manifestations?

 

Beyond this, God reveals to most Christians (through His Spirit)

that all 3 Manifestations (Persons) are indeed God.

I.E. God confirms spiritually what is clearly written in the NT.

 

But, don't forget Jesus' 10 statements, which are similar to ...

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him†(John 6:44).

Everyone else considers the gospel, etc. as "foolishness" (1 Corinthinans 1:18).

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Christians are supposed to believe in the Shema:

"The Lord our God, the Lord is one!" (Deuteronomy 6:4).

This indicates a personal relationship, and it also means

"the Lord alone" ... there is only one God.

 

God in the NT reveals Himself as having 3 Manifestations.

So we say, "One God in Three Persons".

 

Whether He is more or less than 3 Persons, He has revealed Himself as 3.

 

Would someone care to produce just one ancient manuscaript or Bible

that does not have the NT verses which indicate the 3 Manifestations?

 

Beyond this, God reveals to most Christians (through His Spirit)

that all 3 Manifestations (Persons) are indeed God.

I.E. God confirms spiritually what is clearly written in the NT.

 

But, don't forget Jesus' 10 statements, which are similar to ...

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him†(John 6:44).

Everyone else considers the gospel, etc. as "foolishness" (1 Corinthinans 1:18).

 

when its stated the lord is ONE, its gonna mean just that. god dont wanna imply that ONEs gonna mean 3 in one. dont think theres anything in torah or ot or nt that wanna imply ONE is 3 in 1. right? :sl:

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how can something be "truly God" and "truly man," when "truly God" trumps "truly man"

 

If God has the power to make man, why would he not have the power to take on manhood?

 

and what does that mean in terms of a redemptive sacrifice of one's own self, even if that self is just a lesser part? I cut off my arm as a sacrifice to myself in order to save you from my wrath? Is that the thrust here?

 

Not quite… Jesus is not a “part†of God, let alone a “lesser part,†but He is God, the image of the Invisible. So God, my judge who can rightly condemn me by the law he wrote, did not merely give up a part of Himself, but his whole self in my place.

 

Because I require a sacrifice in order to save you (a blood sacrifice, no less) and that sacrifice has to be "pure" in order for it to work in my mind, I therefore cut off my own arm (a "pure" arm) in order to satisfy my own requirments, therefore making the requirement larger than myself?"

 

I don’t pretend to follow the logic there, but one thing seems clear: you see an individual sin as a finite thing. It has a certain weight to it, no more, no less. But what you fail to realize is that any and every sin has infinite weight because ultimately it is treason against the Infinite God. If you break the law at one point you have become a lawbreaker, breaking the whole law.

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Adding to Ixtus ...

 

Unfortunately, few have the incredibly horrible revelation that ...

 

IN THE EYES OF AN INCREDIBLY HOLY GOD, man is garbage and is headed for the garbage dump.

 

And no amount of good deeds, etc. can change this fact ... they are useless.

So, God has come to the rescue with His grace, which only is:

some people will somehow go along with God's plan, and make it to Heaven.

 

This is what "the Scriptures" (OT and NT) teach us.

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Adding to Ixtus ...

 

Unfortunately, few have the incredibly horrible revelation that ...

 

IN THE EYES OF AN INCREDIBLY HOLY GOD, man is garbage and is headed for the garbage dump.

 

And no amount of good deeds, etc. can change this fact ... they are useless.

So, God has come to the rescue with His grace, which only is:

some people will somehow go along with God's plan, and make it to Heaven.

 

This is what "the Scriptures" (OT and NT) teach us.

 

i believe you're saying as long as you dont believe jesus is god, your belief in salvation would'nt save you from hell. right? so be it.

 

lets look at john 4. as you can see god's sending his son, he's not sending himself to save man. :sl:

 

John 4:10 “Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.â€

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