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Is Jesus God?

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Hi Gracie!

 

Well, there are many different perspectives among Christians but it is fair to say that most believe he is.

 

There are those who believe Jesus is God as part of a trinity, and there are those who believe that Jesus is God and that God had made himself human.

 

Interestingly, the first believers did not believe Jesus was God and he was only made into a deity after 100 AD. This is also around the time when the belief in the Trinity began and grew steadily until it was made official by Rome in 325 AD and this is when he was official declared a deity.

 

 

Jesus was not all-knowing

 

“When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just as the Father has taught me.†John 8:28

 

So Jesus has been taught by God, but God on the other hand needs no teacher.

 

In the Gospel of Mark we learn that a woman suffering from an illness touched the robe of Jesus. He felt power leave him and he asked, “Who touched me?†and looked for the woman. (Mark 5:30-32) We know that God knows all things, just as He knew Cain had killed Abel.

 

Jesus was not all-powerful

 

We learn that on one occasion Jesus laid his hands on a man’s eyes to heal him from blindness but his eyesight was not crystal clear, so Jesus laid his hands on the man’s eyes again and then he was finally able to see (Mark 8:22-26). When God said, “Let there be light,†there was light. There was no ‘second-take’ nor did the light flicker until he repeated Himself.

 

Jesus taught us how to do the things the things he did and said that we could do even greater things:

 

“I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done and even greater works,†John 14:12

 

His disciples had also healed the sick using the instructions Jesus gave them and many people are able to do this today and I have applied this in my own life, so his miracle-working ability is not totally unique.

 

Jesus was sent by God

 

"They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the One who sent me." John 15:17

 

"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the One true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.†John 17:3

 

“I judge only as I hear, and my judgement is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.†(John 5:30) We should do likewise.

 

*“I have come in my Father’s name,†John 5:43 [and he explains in John 16:12 “During my time here I have protected them by the power of the name you gave me.â€]

 

Jesus only did and said what God told him to

 

“When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just as the Father has taught me.†John 8:28

 

“For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not my own will.†John 6:38

 

“If I want to glorify myself, it doesn’t count. But it is my Father who will glorify me. You say He is your God, but you don’t even know him. I know him. If I said otherwise I would be a liar like you! But I do know him and obey him.†John 8:54-55

 

*“Now they know that everything I have is a gift from you, for I have passed on the message you gave me.†John 16:7-8

 

“Yet I want your will to be done, not mine.†Luke 22:42

 

“I brought glory to you here on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.†John 17:4

 

Jesus said God is One

 

"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the One true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.†John 17:3

 

*"Hear O israel! The LORD our God, the LORD is One." Mark 12:29

 

Jesus prayed to God

 

*“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?†Matthew 28:46

 

“Father if you are willing, take this cup of suffering away from me. Yet I want your will to be done, not mine.†Luke 22:42

 

He also gave thanks to God prior to raising Lazarus from the dead and performing other miracles.

 

Jesus said God loves us as much as He loved Jesus

 

"May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me." John 17:23

 

Jesus said that we are all God’s children

 

"Don't cling to me for I haven't ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them, I am ascending to your Father and my Father, to your God and my God." John 20:17 (New Living Translation)

 

"My mothers and brothers are those who hear God's word and put it into practice." Luke 8:21

 

“You fathers – if your children ask for a fish, do you give them a snake instead? Or if hey ask for an egg, do you give them a scorpion? Of course not! So you sinful people know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask?†Luke 11:11

 

Note that he did not say that we are adopted - he simply called God our Father.

 

Jesus prayed that we may be like him

 

“Father, I want these whom you have sent me to be with me where I am.†John 16:24

 

“I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one,†John 17:21

 

Jesus taught us how to be like him and do the things he did

 

“I tell you, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works because I am going to the Father.†John 14:12

 

“I have given them the glory you gave me, so they may be one, just as we are one.†John 17:22

 

Jesus never told anyone to worship him

 

“A man came to Jesus and asked him, ‘Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?’â€

“Why do you call me good?†Jesus asked. “Only God is truly God.†Mark 10:18-19

 

When Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment was he said, “’Love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind and all your strength’. The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself’. No other commandment is greater than these.†Mark 12:30-31

 

Note that he did not say we have to love him or worship him.

 

He also said that the Father was greater than him so he cannot therefore be God or be equal to God in a Trinity:

 

“Remember what I told you: I am going away but I will come back to you again. If you really loved me, you would be happy that I am going to the Father who is greater than I.†John 14:28

 

Jesus said, “You must worship serve the LORD your God and serve only him.†Luke 4:10

 

Those who worship Jesus, his mother, saints, statues and images have gone against Jesus’ very words. Some of you say you are Christians yet you disregard the teachings of Jesus Christ himself and listen to the traditions of your churches. Jesus warned us:

 

“You cancel the word of God for the sake of your own tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote:

‘These people honour me with their lips, but their hearts are far away from me. Their worship of me is a farce, for they teach MAN-MADE ideas as commands from God.†Matthew 15:6-9

 

He was referring to the Jewish religious leaders but it still applies today.

 

Jesus did not say he was a mediator or a deity

 

“Then you will ask in my name. I am not saying I will ask the Father on your behalf, for the Father himself loves you dearly because you love me and believe that I came from God.†John 16:26

 

“I can do nothing on my own. I judge as God tells me. Therefore, my judgement is just because I carry out the will of the one who sent me, not my own will.†John 5:30

 

Jesus went through human experiences

 

Jesus was tempted while he fasted for forty days and forty nights. He was very hungry and was tempted to turn rocks into bread, but he resisted. He was tempted with the glory of all the kingdoms of this world but again he was disciplined.

He resisted his ego and was disciplined and we should follow his example so that the adversary may leave us as well.

 

Jesus was hungry (Mark 11:12) and sought fruit from a fig tree. He also hungered when he fasted in the desert.

 

Jesus was sad when he went to the home of Mary and Martha who were mourning the death of their brother Lazarus that he even wept. (John 11:35)

 

Jesus was in agony prior to his arrest and was troubled. Fear of death and self-preservation are normal human instincts.

 

Jesus said he was Human

 

“Son of Man,†the title Jesus used for himself (along with Son of God), is actually a generic term in Aramaic [the language spoken by Jesus] simply meaning man!

 

Son of Man is ‘bar nasha’ in Aramaic [although it has many variants] just means man’s child or man’s offspring, basically meaning mankind. We are all the Son of Man as we are all descendent of Adam. The term is also used in a gender neutral sense. It is used Hebrew Old Testament to describe a man or human.

 

Some argue that Jesus was showing humility or that it was a special title, however the true origin of the phrase can not be denied. We also have to consider that Jesus did go through human feelings and he did not say that he was a god/God.

 

When we look at the other title used for Jesus, Son of God, we learn that this also has Semetic origins and was used to describe a righteous person and historians admit that the notion of Jesus being God or being God’s divine son was not held in the early days of Christianity.

We’ve already discussed that Jesus called those who hear God’s word and put it into practice are his mothers and brothers and sisters, meaning that they are like him.

 

“I live because of the living Father who sent me; in the same way, anyone who feeds on me will live,†John 6:57

 

Jesus lived because of God and so do we. God was not created nor is His existence subject to the will of any other being. He is the self-sustaining glorious Creator.

 

Jesus is not the only begotten son

 

“For God so loved the world,

that he gave his only begotten Son

that whosoever believeth in him

should not perish

but have everlasting life.â€

—John 3:16, King James Version (KJV), 1611 A.D.

 

Jesus is not the only begotten son. This is a mistranslation, which is why modern Bibles now say he was the ‘one and only’.

 

“For God so loved the world

that he gave his one and only Son,

that whoever believes in him

shall not perish

but have eternal life.â€

—John 3:16, New International Version (NIV),

 

Monogenes is the Greek word which has been mistranslated/misinterpreted as meaning only begotten. Mono means one and genes means kind, so we can translate the word as ‘one-of-a-kind’ or unique.

 

It is the same word used to describe Isaac although we know he was not Abraham’s only son, so we can conclude that it refers to his uniqueness as he was the child of Abraham born of divine promise.

 

Although we see in ancient Greek texts that the word has been used to describe unique and only children, the etymology of the word has no suggestion of procreation or begetting making ‘only begotten’ a misleading translation.

 

To see if this translation is correct we should also look at the Aramaic Peshitta [syriac Bible]. In it, yichadaia’ is used to describe Jesus and it is similar to the Hebrew word yachida. Both terms come from the same root word, ychd. The meaning of yachida may me translated as beloved, darling, desolate, lonely, or solitary thus we can conclude it means beloved and unique - but it has no hint of procreating, begetting or fathering, therefore it is similar in meaning to the Greek word.

 

Unicas, meaning unique in Latin was also used in some of the earliest Latin manuscripts which is in synchrony with the Greek and Aramaic texts.

 

So how is Jesus human yet one-of-a-kind or unique? Well, most evidently because of his virgin birth.

 

Unique would be the correct word especially when we consider that Jesus called God our ‘Father’ as well and said we are his brothers and sisters. Thus some Bible translations are true the original meaning and using the word unique as in the texts and not ‘only begotten’.

 

Jesus did not create the Universe

 

*“I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,†Isaiah 44:24

 

*“Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.†Isaiah 43:10

 

This completely refutes the Trinity. It does not say in Genesis (the Book of Creation) that God was three or that he became three or that He would become three. It also does not say that when God said, “Let there be light,†that his Son turned on the lights. Stop believing these man-made lies.

 

God saves us!

 

God is our saviour because it is only by His will that Jesus came to teach and show us. Jesus was only doing and saying what God commanded him. God sent him!

 

*“I, even I, am the LORD and apart from me there is no saviour.†Isaiah 43:11

 

Jesus said that no servant is greater than his master and repeatedly said that he was following God’s instruction. Before he was crucified, he prayed and said:

 

“I brought glory to you here on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.†John 17:4

 

The idea that God came to earth and died for our sins to pay a sacrifice to Himself and put up a ransom to Himself makes no sense. Salvation comes only to those who apply Jesus teachings – which came from God. Read the Gospels carefully, perhaps you will understand it.

 

We cannot see God

 

We cannot see God because he is omnipresent – our eyes cannot perceive such. He is to vast and too beautiful that not even the most handsome Jew from Nazareth would be able to truly represent him.

 

God said, *“You cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.†Exodus 33:20

 

God is formless

 

“For God is spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.†John 4:24 Note that he did not say, “Those who worship me.â€

 

God is formless and he does not have a face.

 

 

It is only clear that Jesus is God if you take some mistranslated verses in isolation and convince yourself that he is God and augment the Bible with doctrine books and traditions.

 

 

Hope this helps!!

 

Peace! :sl:

 

*All quotes preceded by an asterisk are from the New International Version.

All other quotes are from the New Living Translation.

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my question to the christian community is, is jesus god and why?

 

Hello Gracie,

 

The answere is yes. Lets start by drawing some parallels.

 

Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM. He said: Thus shalt thou say to the children of israel: HE WHO IS, hath sent me to you. Compare this to

St. John 8:58 Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.

If you continue reading in St. John 8:59 They were ready to stone Jesus for saying this. Why? He made this reference in verse 58 saying he is God.

 

2 Kings 22:3 God is my strong one, in him will I trust: my shield, and the horn of my salvation: he lifteth me up, and is my refuge: my saviour, thou wilt deliver me from iniquity.

Compare this to

Luke 1:68-69Blessed be the Lord God of israel; because he hath visited and wrought the redemption of his people: [69] And hath raised up an horn of salvation to us, in the house of David his servant:

Now what is this mean? Jesus is the horn of salvation.

 

Issisa 45:24 For every knee shall be bowed to me, and every tongue shall swear.

Compare this to

Phillipians 2:10-11 That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth: [11] And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.

 

What does this mean? That at Jesus name every knee shall bow and toung confess.

 

Jesus Christ him self clames to be God.

 

Luke 4:12 And Jesus answering, said to him: It is said: Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Matt 4:7 Jesus said to him: It is written again: Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

 

Why is this important. This occured durring Satans temptation of Christ in the desert durring his fasting.

 

Matt 9:2 And behold they brought to him one sick of the palsy lying in a bed. And Jesus, seeing their faith, said to the man sick of the palsy: Be of good heart, son, thy sins are forgiven thee.

 

This is important because only God can forgive sins. If Jesus is not God how can he forgive sins? This also can be read in Mark 2:5 and Luke 5:20; 7:48.

 

Mark 14:36 And he saith: Abba, Father, all things are possible to thee: remove this chalice from me; but not what I will, but what thou wilt.

 

Why is this important. Abba is Aramaic term for daddy. Quite a intamate term for ones creator don't you think? Quite a unpresidented way to address God.

 

Early Church Fathers

 

 

“We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin." Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, 7 (A.D. 110).

 

"For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God." Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 121 (A.D. 155).

 

God was in the beginning; but the beginning, we have been taught, is the power of the Logos. For the Lord of the universe, who is Himself the necessary ground of all being, inasmuch as no creature was yet in existence, was alone; but inasmuch as He was all power, Himself the necessary ground of things visible and invisible, with Him were all things; with Him, by Logos-power, the Logos Himself also, who was in Him, subsists. And by His simple will the Logos springs forth; and the Logos, not coming forth in vain, becomes the first-begotten work of the Father. Him (the Logos) we know to be the beginning of the world. But He came into being by participation, not by abscission; for what is cut off is separated from the original substance, but that which comes by participation, making its choice of function, does not render him deficient from whom it is taken. For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Logos, coming forth from the Logos-power of the Father, has not divested of the Logos-power Him who begat Him." Tatian the Syrian, Oration Against the Greeks, 5 (c. A.D. 175).

 

"We have already asserted that God made the world, and all which it contains, by His Word, and Reason, and Power. It is abundantly plain that your philosophers, too, regard the Logos--that is, the Word and Reason--as the Creator of the universe...And we, in like manner, hold that the Word, and Reason, and Power, by which we have said God made all, have spirit as their proper and essential substratum, in which the Word has inbeing to give forth utterances, and reason abides to dispose and arrange, and power is over all to execute. We have been taught that He proceeds forth from God, and in that procession He is generated; so that He is the Son of God, and is called God from unity of substance with God. For God, too, is a Spirit. Even when the ray is shot from the sun, it is still part of the parent mass; the sun will still be in the ray, because it is a ray of the sun--there is no division of substance, but merely an extension. Thus Christ is Spirit of Spirit, and God of God, as light of light is kindled. The material matrix remains entire and unimpaired, though you derive from it any number of shoots possessed of its qualities; so, too, that which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one. In this way also, as He is Spirit of Spirit and God of God, He is made a second in manner of existence--in position, not in nature; and He did not withdraw from the original source, but went forth. This ray of God, then, as it was always foretold in ancient times, descending into a certain virgin, and made flesh in her womb, is in His birth God and man united." Tertullian, Apology, 21 (A.D. 197).

 

"And thus there appeared another beside Himself. But when I say another, I do not mean that there are two Gods, but that it is only as light of light, or as water from a fountain, or as a ray from the sun. For there is but one power, which is from the All; and the Father is the All, from whom cometh this Power, the Word. And this is the mind which came forth into the world, and was manifested as the Son of God." Hippolytus, Against the Heresy of One Noetus, 11 (A.D. 210).

 

"For Scripture as much announces Christ as also God, as it announces God Himself as man." Novatian, Concerning the Trinity, 11 (A.D. 235).

 

Summary

 

This all points to Jesus Christ is God. There are many more examples of this in scripture and Early Church Father writings. I hope this is helpful.

 

*The Bible quotes are from the Douay-Rheims a translation of the Latin Vulgate.

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This all points to Jesus Christ is God.

 

Yeah, I used to think in the same way. For many years.

 

Then it suddenly happened. It struck me that it didn't make sense.

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Assalamu Alaykum

 

We should not reject a doctrine because is does not make sense. We believe in whatever is the truth. If something does not make sense then it is not a reason to reject it. I reject the doctrines of other religion not because it does not make sense, but because Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says so in Qur'an. Through Qur'an He tells me what is the truth or not. It the Message that causes me to reject whatever it is.

 

It is not allowed in Islam that God Almighty is formless or whatever term. Yes, he has a face, but it is veiled. God Almighty is the Living[using large font size is not allowed] God.

 

Oh, Jesus is not God nor is God Jesus, not because it does not make sense, but because Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala tells so in Qur'an.

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Hi Workingman,

 

Luke 4:12 And Jesus answering, said to him: It is said: Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

 

You've taken the verse out of context:

"Then [satan] took him to Jerusalem, to the highest point of the Temple, and said, "If you are the Son of God, jump off! For the scriptures say,

 

'He will order his angels to protect and your guard you. And they will hold you up with their hands so you won't even hurt your foort on a stone.'

 

Jesus responded, "The Scriptures say, 'You must not test the LORD your God."

 

Satan tempted Jesus to jump off and test God to save him. Jesus quoted Deuteronomy 6:16 in response.

 

Matt 9:2 And behold they brought to him one sick of the palsy lying in a bed. And Jesus, seeing their faith, said to the man sick of the palsy: Be of good heart, son, thy sins are forgiven thee.

 

This is important because only God can forgive sins. If Jesus is not God how can he forgive sins? This also can be read in Mark 2:5 and Luke 5:20; 7:48.

 

Jesus was relaying to them that their sins were forgiven. He did not say that he himself forgave them, he said they were forgiven. Furthermore, Jesus already says that he does and says what the Father instructs him to.

 

Mark 14:36 And he saith: Abba, Father, all things are possible to thee: remove this chalice from me; but not what I will, but what thou wilt.

 

Why is this important. Abba is Aramaic term for daddy. Quite a intamate term for ones creator don't you think? Quite a unpresidented way to address God.

 

"Don't cling to me for I haven't ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them, I am ascending to your Father and my Father, to your God and my God." John 20:17 (New Living Translation)

 

"My mothers and brothers are those who hear God's word and put it into practice." Luke 8:21

 

“You fathers – if your children ask for a fish, do you give them a snake instead? Or if hey ask for an egg, do you give them a scorpion? Of course not! So you sinful people know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask?†Luke 11:11

 

Are the church fathers your messengers or is Jesus? The church fathers and their councils voted on how and why Jesus was God so this is clearly a man-made doctrine.

Jesus told us that he is our teacher so his teachings are enough, furthermore if he was God he would have demanded worship or called himself the Father.

 

Hi Yusha!

It is not allowed in Islam that God Almighty is formless or whatever term. Yes, he has a face, but it is veiled. God Almighty is the Living God.

 

How does Islam explain God having a form? Is God in human form or like a creature of sorts? If he has a form did He create it Himself?

 

I am aware that there are some Muslims who differ in this matter, based upon the scripture in Exodus where God said we cannot see him and live.

 

Peace :sl:

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Samantha-g hello again,

 

You said

You've taken the verse out of context:

"Then [satan] took him to Jerusalem, to the highest point of the Temple, and said, "If you are the Son of God, jump off! For the scriptures say,

 

'He will order his angels to protect and your guard you. And they will hold you up with their hands so you won't even hurt your foort on a stone.'

 

Jesus responded, "The Scriptures say, 'You must not test the LORD your God."

 

Satan tempted Jesus to jump off and test God to save him. Jesus quoted Deuteronomy 6:16 in response.

 

I quoted word for word out of the Douay-Rheims Bible. It is not out of context. Yes, there were three test or temptations. Jesus said this in reference to him self.

 

you also said

Jesus was relaying to them that their sins were forgiven. He did not say that he himself forgave them, he said they were forgiven. Furthermore, Jesus already says that he does and says what the Father instructs him to.

 

It does not read as a relay at all. It reads a quote. Jesuse spoke the words. Not the words of I forgive you in the name of God or the Father.

 

How Samantha do you explain the other references that Jesus makes that I listed from scripture in the compare and contrast from OT to NT?

Exodus 3:14 and St. John St. John 8:58 and lets include verse 59.

 

2 Kings 22:3 and St. Luke 1:68-69.

 

Issisa 45:24 and Phillipians 2:10-11

 

You also said this samantha-g

Are the church fathers your messengers or is Jesus? The church fathers and their councils voted on how and why Jesus was God so this is clearly a man-made doctrine.

Jesus told us that he is our teacher so his teachings are enough, furthermore if he was God he would have demanded worship or called himself the Father.

 

The ECF's also include the Apostels snd disciple's. Paul says this in 2Thess. 2:14 [14] Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

 

I will also give a example straight out of the Bible of oral tradition. Look at Jude 9:9 When Michael the archangel, disputing with the devil, contended about the body of Moses, he durst not bring against him the judgment of railing speech, but said: The Lord command thee.

 

I offer this in explanation. "Contended about the body"... This contention, which is no where else mentioned in holy writ, was originally known by revelation, and transmitted by tradition. It is thought the occasion of it was, that the devil would have had the body buried in such a place and manner, as to be worshipped by the Jews with divine honours

 

So Tradition not tradition there is a difference does play a role. Also if it was not for the ECF's and Councels the cannon of Holy Scripture as we know it would of never been established. My 2 cents.

 

 

al faqeer, You said

Jesus Became God of Christians after the Council of nicea made him God

 

What proof to this do you offer? Christ from Holy Scripture says he is God himself. See my post before this.

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No he never said he is god period , its you lot who misunderstood the message and now you are what you are :sl: .

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No he never said he is god period , its you lot who misunderstood the message and now you are what you are :sl: .

 

Nice refutation. :no: :sl:

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No he never said he is god period , its you lot who misunderstood the message and now you are what you are :sl: .

 

Nice refutation. :no: :sl:

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my question to the christian community is, is jesus god and why?

 

christians are made up of 3 groups - majority are trinintarians, then comes binitarians and minority unitarians.

trinitarians believe god comprises 3 gods - the father, jesus and holy spirit.

binitarians believe that god comprises 2 gods - the father and jesus while holy spirit is no god.

unitarians believe in one and only god. jesus and holy spirit are no god.

 

if jesus is god he wouldn't have cried for help to god like what he did before his crucifixion -

Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34; My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

 

okie dokie :sl:

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Oh, Jesus is not God nor is God Jesus, not because it does not make sense, but because Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala tells so in Qur'an.

 

indeed muslims have their quran to guide them. on the other hand christians gotta use logic, they gotta think whether it makes sense for almighty god to become man to save mankind. whether it makes sense for almighty god to be able to eat, weep and #### (beg your pardon MODERATOR) etc to save his creation man from his creation devil. and it looks like trinity and twoness almighty god in jesus form gotta be murdered by his creation the jews. :sl:

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Jesus Became God of Christians after the Council of nicea made him God :sl: .

 

dead right. i'll copy and paste once i get the info. :sl:

Edited by tom

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Jesus Became God of Christians after the Council of nicea made him God .

 

Al Faqeer is just stating a well-known fact. Those who cannot accept it are in denial and have placed tradition and myth above the word of God and the teachings of Jesus himelf.

 

Workingman,

 

What proof to this do you offer? Christ from Holy Scripture says he is God himself. See my post before this.

 

Jesus not say that he was God or part of a Trinity. He did not tell anyone to worship him nor did he call himself God Almighty, and he repeatedly called himself the ‘Son of Man’ which means descendent of Adam/human.

 

Workingman, have you ignored my evidence (4 x A4 pages worth)? Perhaps your Latin Vulgate is a faulty translation or is slanted toward the notion of Jesus being God. If you cannot read the scriptures in their original language then research the phrases and words and you shall discover the truth. You can also refer to straightforward translations. Perhaps it is clear in your Bible translation and again, you have the choice to seek the truth or ignore it when it is presented to you.

 

The ECF's also include the Apostels snd disciple's. Paul says this in 2Thess. 2:14 [14] Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. So Tradition not tradition there is a difference does play a role. Also if it was not for the ECF's and Councels the cannon of Holy Scripture as we know it would of never been established. My 2 cents.

 

Yes, indeed the counsels established the canon, however the Epistles and the Gospels are not even in the same league. The Epistles cannot be considered scripture because they are the opinions of men like Paul in letters they wrote. They were not prophets and the message of Jesus is already in the Gospels. Why do I need the opinion of Paul? Is he Jesus? No! He even contradicts what Jesus taught us. Again, Jesus brought the message. I don’t need a filter – his words are clear enough and he said he said he is our teacher. He knew that religious leaders would mislead masses but still he warned us, yet many believe they need priests or scholars or epistles or church fathers to understand him when he was so clear.

 

But if you would like verses from the Epistles, I shall gladly indulge you:

 

"God is never tempted to do wrong, nor does he tempt anyone else." James 1:13

 

“They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator – who is forever praised. Amen.†Romans 1:25

 

Created things = a trinity, idols, false deities like Mary, Mother of Jesus – not the ‘mother of god’ or ‘queen of heaven’ or ‘spouse of the holy spirit’. This is perversion! Jesus did not tell us to do these things to his mother, nor did he tell anyone to worship him. The Creator is the one we worship as Paul rightly said, proving that he did not believe Jesus was God. Furthermore, in the Ten Commandments is the following command:

 

“You shall have no other gods before me.†Exodus 20:3

 

Jesus’ message is so clear, so why do you pervert and abrogate the teachings and words of Jesus - and since he was a messenger, the words of God Almighty - with the words and ideas of others?

Tradition has a place as do the Epistles, but when the word of God is being contradicted or the message is being misconstrued then it is clearly improper.

 

Mark 14:36 And he saith: Abba, Father, all things are possible to thee: remove this chalice from me; but not what I will, but what thou wilt.

 

Why is this important. Abba is Aramaic term for daddy. Quite a intamate term for ones creator don't you think? Quite a unpresidented way to address God.

 

Jews also referred to God as the Father in Jesus’ time if you are unaware: “We aren’t illegitimate children! God himself is our true Father,†said the Jews in John 8:41. Furthermore, Jesus said that his Father was our Father:

 

“I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.†John 20:17

 

Notice in your quote that Jesus is praying TO GOD and said that he wanted God's will to be done. God is not subordinate to anyone else.

 

It does not read as a relay at all. It reads a quote. Jesuse spoke the words. Not the words of I forgive you in the name of God or the Father.

 

Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven." Luke 7:48 (NIV)

When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friends, your sins are forgiven."

 

Jesus clearly did not say that HE personally forgave them proving that it is a relay. Did he heal and say "in the name of the Father"? That's not how he rolled, but he already said that he does and says whathever God tells him to.

 

I quoted word for word out of the Douay-Rheims Bible. It is not out of context. Yes, there were three test or temptations. Jesus said this in reference to him self.

The adversary tempted Jesus into jumping from the tower so that he might be saved by God’s angels and even quotes a passage in Isaiah. Jesus responds with a verse which says that we shouldn’t test God. Tempting and testing are not the same thing - Jesus was tempted by satan to test God’s love and power.

 

The context is important because Jesus quotes an old Testament verse. Furthermore, LORD [Adonai] = God and Lord [Adon] = Jesus. Jesus was referred to as 'Lord' meaning master, sir or lord which was a common title for a highly esteemed person or religious figure. David is also referred to as 'Lord'.

 

Again, God cannot be tempted So how is Jesus God Almighty if he was tempted?

 

No, Brother. Your argument is not convincing.

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How can God Beget himself folks ?

 

I am mean how can God be His own son if he one ? :sl:

IDK He is God. He can do what pleases Him

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IDK He is God. He can do what pleases Him

 

Yeah and maybe the cow jumped over the Moon.

 

Why Would God Beget a Son who never existed in the universe ? and then make Him part of Being God ?

 

Why does god need to go through and evolution process :sl: ?

 

Now since You believe he is God and one with God , Who was he praying to when he walked the earth ? Himself ?

 

HE was one hec of a good actor in that case :sl: .

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Yeah and maybe the cow jumped over the Moon.

 

Why Would God Beget a Son who never existed in the universe ? and then make Him part of Being God ?

 

Why does god need to go through and evolution process :sl: ?

 

Now since You believe he is God and one with God , Who was he praying to when he walked the earth ? Himself ?

 

HE was one hec of a good actor in that case :no: .

Maybe the cow did. :sl:

 

The existance was there from day one as they are one.

 

Technicaly God does not. Other than the messiah coming though a prophesied line.

 

The "God head" is not a easy consept. That is why it is called faith. One word Omnipotent or omnipresence.

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Workingman,

Jesus not say that he was God or part of a Trinity. He did not tell anyone to worship him nor did he call himself God Almighty, and he repeatedly called himself the ‘Son of Man’ which means descendent of Adam/human.

 

Workingman, have you ignored my evidence (4 x A4 pages worth)? Perhaps your Latin Vulgate is a faulty translation or is slanted toward the notion of Jesus being God. If you cannot read the scriptures in their original language then research the phrases and words and you shall discover the truth. You can also refer to straightforward translations. Perhaps it is clear in your Bible translation and again, you have the choice to seek the truth or ignore it when it is presented to you.

Yes, indeed the counsels established the canon, however the Epistles and the Gospels are not even in the same league. The Epistles cannot be considered scripture because they are the opinions of men like Paul in letters they wrote. They were not prophets and the message of Jesus is already in the Gospels. Why do I need the opinion of Paul? Is he Jesus? No! He even contradicts what Jesus taught us. Again, Jesus brought the message. I don’t need a filter – his words are clear enough and he said he said he is our teacher. He knew that religious leaders would mislead masses but still he warned us, yet many believe they need priests or scholars or epistles or church fathers to understand him when he was so clear.

 

But if you would like verses from the Epistles, I shall gladly indulge you:

 

"God is never tempted to do wrong, nor does he tempt anyone else." James 1:13

 

“They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator – who is forever praised. Amen.†Romans 1:25

 

Created things = a trinity, idols, false deities like Mary, Mother of Jesus – not the ‘mother of god’ or ‘queen of heaven’ or ‘spouse of the holy spirit’. This is perversion! Jesus did not tell us to do these things to his mother, nor did he tell anyone to worship him. The Creator is the one we worship as Paul rightly said, proving that he did not believe Jesus was God. Furthermore, in the Ten Commandments is the following command:

 

“You shall have no other gods before me.†Exodus 20:3

 

Jesus’ message is so clear, so why do you pervert and abrogate the teachings and words of Jesus - and since he was a messenger, the words of God Almighty - with the words and ideas of others?

Tradition has a place as do the Epistles, but when the word of God is being contradicted or the message is being misconstrued then it is clearly improper.

Jews also referred to God as the Father in Jesus’ time if you are unaware: “We aren’t illegitimate children! God himself is our true Father,†said the Jews in John 8:41. Furthermore, Jesus said that his Father was our Father:

 

“I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.†John 20:17

 

Notice in your quote that Jesus is praying TO GOD and said that he wanted God's will to be done. God is not subordinate to anyone else.

Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven." Luke 7:48 (NIV)

When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friends, your sins are forgiven."

 

Jesus clearly did not say that HE personally forgave them proving that it is a relay. Did he heal and say "in the name of the Father"? That's not how he rolled, but he already said that he does and says whathever God tells him to.

The adversary tempted Jesus into jumping from the tower so that he might be saved by God’s angels and even quotes a passage in Isaiah. Jesus responds with a verse which says that we shouldn’t test God. Tempting and testing are not the same thing - Jesus was tempted by satan to test God’s love and power.

 

The context is important because Jesus quotes an old Testament verse. Furthermore, LORD [Adonai] = God and Lord [Adon] = Jesus. Jesus was referred to as 'Lord' meaning master, sir or lord which was a common title for a highly esteemed person or religious figure. David is also referred to as 'Lord'.

 

Again, God cannot be tempted So how is Jesus God Almighty if he was tempted?

 

No, Brother. Your argument is not convincing.

Samantha-g,

 

God's peace to you.

 

I have read your arguments and evidence and like you find mine unconvincing I find yours equaly unconvincing. Jesus was sent to conquer sin and death over the gates of hell. With out that the Apocolips is pointless. These men Paul, Peter, John, ect.... were men who walked and learned directly from Jesus do you realy think they would get the message wrong?

 

A question why do you like the NLVT of the Bible. I was given it as a gift and think it is way to off base/squewed by the translators thology. I never did like the NIV. I will never understand its popularity. I will stick with the KJV 1611, or the DRB.

 

We bolth obviously have stong views and are not going to agree and I don't want to derail the thread. Neither of us are going to convince the other and that is obvious. I respect you my Christian Sister but we have differing views and we can bolth keep quoting and using logic all day long. Gracie asked a question and I laid out a "trinitarian" aspect of Christianity and why. Just as I came here to try and understan Islam a little better.

 

May God's peace be upon you.

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I have read your arguments and evidence and like you find mine unconvincing I find yours equaly unconvincing. Jesus was sent to conquer sin and death over the gates of hell. With out that the Apocolips is pointless. These men Paul, Peter, John, ect.... were men who walked and learned directly from Jesus do you realy think they would get the message wrong?

 

Again, Jesus' teachings are enough and the Epistles are NOT scripture.

 

Paul did not walk with Jesus many of his writings are included in the NT. Paul, Peter, John and James and Jude were not the messengers - Jesus was. Just because they were with him does not mean that they are Jesus. They are susceptible to ignorance and misunderstanding just as anyone else is.

 

No, Jesus mission is not pointless. Perhaps when you do some research into the actual meaning of the text you will come to understand the truth.

 

A question why do you like the NLVT of the Bible. I was given it as a gift and think it is way to off base/squewed by the translators thology. I never did like the NIV. I will never understand its popularity. I will stick with the KJV 1611, or the DRB.

KJV is outdated [which is why the New KJV was published] and contains misinterpretations . NLT is a more straightforward translation than the KJV. The footnotes are also very helpful. If you are interested in what the scriptures really say, then the KJV is not way to go.

 

We bolth obviously have stong views and are not going to agree and I don't want to derail the thread. Neither of us are going to convince the other and that is obvious. I respect you my Christian Sister but we have differing views and we can bolth keep quoting and using logic all day long. Gracie asked a question and I laid out a "trinitarian" aspect of Christianity and why. Just as I came here to try and understan Islam a little better.

 

May God's peace be upon you.

Sure. Gracie is also trying to understand Christianity better and we’ve given her the various views.

 

I still think it is telling that a group of men in 325 AD voted on whether or not Jesus was God. I did not know that the one could be elected to such a high position.

 

 

God’s peace to you as well, my friend!

Edited by samantha-g

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. . . . Gracie asked a question and I laid out a "trinitarian" aspect of Christianity and why.

 

the question is IS JESUS GOD AND WHY?

 

trinity and twoness christians gonna say he's god and that the bible said so or quoting you - god the father/god the son jesus can do what pleases him. mark you it's not "what pleases them" since father and son supposedly one and same god, right?

 

unitary christians gonna say he's no god and that the bible said so.

 

as you can see we're gonna quote and elaborate, illustrate, inteprete as we please (not as god pleases) depending on who we are - trinity, twoness or unitary. hence we gotta use logic, there's no such thing as blind faith.

 

if we gonna tell mr GRACIE that jesus is god then we gotta explain why god wanne be man to save his creation mankind, right? it's not a matter the bible said so or that god wanna have fun on earth among his creation mankind, how it feels to be flogged and murdered by his creation jews. you can imagine the absurdness of learning our one and only almighty god teaching torah to peter, paul and john etc when he can easily create prophets, apostles etc to do his bidding on earth. :sl:

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as you can see we're gonna quote and elaborate, illustrate, inteprete as we please (not as god pleases) depending on who we are - trinity, twoness or unitary. hence we gotta use logic, there's no such thing as blind faith.

 

I believe that I am not interpreting as I please, but I have come to this conclusion from studying the gospels and learning the true meaning of the scriptures.

 

The scriptures DO NOT say Jesus was God. Jesus said he was human as I explained.

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