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Ameer7

Can Almighty God’s Plans Be Defeated?

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Almighty God orchestrated thousands of years of history to have His precious Scriptures written.

 

Just think about that for a moment.

 

It’s not difficult to see how IMPORTANT this was to GOD!

 

In His Scriptures, He proved (through the israelites) how terrible man’s spiritual condition is,

and He explained how man can escape from his dilema.

He prophesied 300+ times that He would produce His Messiah-Redeemer-Savior.

 

It’s not difficult to see how IMPORTANT all of this was to GOD, and also to man!

 

I believe that it’s just common sense that ...

 

-- Almighty GOD did NOT fail to preserve what He wanted to preserve in His Scriptures.

 

-- Almighty GOD was NOT defeated by Satan and/or man regarding His Scriptures,

or regarding anything else for that matter.

 

So, why do people not trust God's Scriptures? Do they think He's a big loser, or impotent, or ...?

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Almighty God orchestrated thousands of years of history to have His precious Scriptures written.

So, why do people not trust God's Scriptures? Do they think He's a big loser, or impotent, or ...?

Peace,

Well, the reason why some accepted and some rejected the scriptures is because each person is given a choice. As in life , it is up to an individual to decide and bore the consequence of his or her own choice.

 

As for the more fundamental subject regarding your post, God and humans are not the same, therefore to apply the same term of reference or reasoning for both is rather illogical. For example, God created time, He is therefore not subjected to time, humans do. God encompasses everything in His vision, He is All Seeing, whereas humans can only see whatever their own eyes are seeing.Therefore, it is based on flawed logic that we deduce something is important to both humans and God, God is simply beyond us to make any comparison to.

Beside that, I agree that it does make sense that God would preserve His scriptures for guidance to mankind and others. And how could He be defeated by anything as He is the One who created everything that exists in the first place?

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So, why do people not trust God's Scriptures? Do they think He's a big loser, or impotent, or ...?

 

Do you think God is a big loser who cannot:

 

1) Prevent man from sinning.

2) Prevent Satan from influencing man.

 

Of course not. Your answer will be that it's part of God's plan, that God permits man to sin but that there will be justice served, etc, etc.

 

The same applies to the message of God. God permitted man to commit sins by altering His message, because that is a test for not only the sinner, but those around him. For example, when man tells you that God had a son, or that God was a man, that is a test for you.

 

Salam.

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Peace,

Well, the reason why some accepted and some rejected the scriptures is because each person is given a choice. As in life , it is up to an individual to decide and bore the consequence of his or her own choice.

 

As for the more fundamental subject regarding your post, God and humans are not the same, therefore to apply the same term of reference or reasoning for both is rather illogical. For example, God created time, He is therefore not subjected to time, humans do. God encompasses everything in His vision, He is All Seeing, whereas humans can only see whatever their own eyes are seeing.Therefore, it is based on flawed logic that we deduce something is important to both humans and God, God is simply beyond us to make any comparison to.

Beside that, I agree that it does make sense that God would preserve His scriptures for guidance to mankind and others. And how could He be defeated by anything as He is the One who created everything that exists in the first place?

Sorry, this has nothing to do with God's reasoning vs. man's reasoning.

It has to do with man being wise enough to see that Almighty God would NOT fail to carry out His plan!

If adding/subtracting/changing some books, chapters, verses, clauses, phrases, words, etc.

does NOT alter God's plan and His message, do you think He is going to care?

I.E. How many times do His spiritual truths have to be repeated in His Scriptures?

No, it just provides another reason for those who are NOT chosen and called to NOT believe.

This ties in with the question: Why did Jesus speak in parables so much? '

He was hiding incredibly precious spiritual truths from those who were NOT chosen and called,

and who therefore did NOT have "eyes to see and ears to hear".

So, it's probably all just part of His plan ... I.E. He saw everything,

including the Muslim problem of accepting His Scriptures, long before the foundation of the world.

I hope that you understand what I'm talking about.

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Do you think God is a big loser who cannot:

1) Prevent man from sinning.

2) Prevent Satan from influencing man.

Of course not. Your answer will be that it's part of God's plan, that God permits man to sin but that there will be justice served, etc, etc.

The same applies to the message of God. God permitted man to commit sins by altering His message, because that is a test for not only the sinner, but those around him. For example, when man tells you that God had a son, or that God was a man, that is a test for you.

About unimportant tahrif, please see my last post.

About "God was a man" ...

God is Spirit. Everyone agrees He is omni-present (everywhere).

Otherwise, how would He be able to see and know everything?

That means He can enter a human body and stay there for 33 years!

WOW, impossible, stupid, crazy, doesn't agree with your reasoning, etc., right?

This situation of God being inside a person does NOT mean the person is God.

It just means God is USING the body for His purposes. Is that okay, or ...?

If God is inside a flower, then is the flower God?

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Almighty God orchestrated thousands of years of history to have His precious Scriptures written.

Which Scriptures are you talking about? There are tons of religious scriptures all over the world. Maybe you ought to be a little more specific.

 

In His Scriptures, He proved (through the israelites) how terrible man’s spiritual condition is,

and He explained how man can escape from his dilema.

 

You are right. Man's spiritual condition is certainly terrible. But you don't really need any scripture to tell you that! It's pretty obvious!

 

He prophesied 300+ times that He would produce His Messiah-Redeemer-Savior.

 

Just one prophecy is enough if it is indeed from God. Waste of time to repeat the same thing 300+ times. Which makes me ask, could you provide these 300+ references?

 

I believe that it’s just common sense that ...

 

-- Almighty GOD did NOT fail to preserve what He wanted to preserve in His Scriptures.

 

-- Almighty GOD was NOT defeated by Satan and/or man regarding His Scriptures,

or regarding anything else for that matter.

 

Well, what was it exactly that God did not fail to preserve? And how did you come to the conclusion that Satan did NOT tamper with the Scriptures? And speaking of defeat, if you really believe in God's power and might, surely you ought to know that nothing can defeat God. He is The Invincible, the Most Powerful.

 

So, why do people not trust God's Scriptures? Do they think He's a big loser, or impotent, or ...?

 

If the scripture in question is the Bible, then we do not trust it. But we do trust one scripture of God. The scripture called The Qur'an. Ever heard of it?

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That's what God Almighty subhanahu wa ta'ala says to you:

 

002.253

YUSUFALI: Those messengers We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. If Allah had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If Allah had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah Fulfilleth His plan.

 

PICKTHAL: Of those messengers, some of whom We have caused to excel others, and of whom there are some unto whom Allah spake, while some of them He exalted (above others) in degree; and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty) and We supported him with the holy Spirit. And if Allah had so wiled it, those who followed after them would not have fought one with another after the clear proofs had come unto them. But they differed, some of them believing and some disbelieving. And if Allah had so willed it, they would not have fought one with another; but Allah doeth what He will.

 

SHAKIR: We have made some of these messengers to excel the others among them are they to whom Allah spoke, and some of them He exalted by (many degrees of) rank; and We gave clear miracles to Isa son of Marium, and strengthened him with the holy spirit. And if Allah had pleased, those after them would not have fought one with another after clear arguments had come to them, but they disagreed; so there were some of them who believed and others who denied; and if Allah had pleased they would not have fought one with another, but Allah brings about what He intends.

 

 

 

 

 

 

003.045

YUSUFALI: Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;

PICKTHAL: (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).

SHAKIR: When the angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).

003.046

YUSUFALI: "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

PICKTHAL: He will speak unto mankind in his cradle and in his manhood, and he is of the righteous.

SHAKIR: And he shall speak to the people when in the cradle and when of old age, and (he shall be) one of the good ones.

003.047

YUSUFALI: She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

PICKTHAL: She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me? He said: So (it will be). Allah createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.

SHAKIR: She said: My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to I me, and man has not touched me? He said: Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

003.176

YUSUFALI: Let not those grieve thee who rush headlong into Unbelief: Not the least harm will they do to Allah: Allah's plan is that He will give them no portion in the Hereafter, but a severe punishment.

PICKTHAL: Let not their conduct grieve thee, who run easily to disbelief, for lo! they injure Allah not at all. It is Allah's Will to assign them no portion in the Hereafter, and theirs will be an awful doom.

SHAKIR: And let not those grieve you who fall into unbelief hastily; surely they can do no harm to Allah at all; Allah intends that He should not give them any portion in the hereafter, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

006.111

YUSUFALI: Even if We did send unto them angels, and the dead did speak unto them, and We gathered together all things before their very eyes, they are not the ones to believe, unless it is in Allah's plan. But most of them ignore (the truth).

PICKTHAL: And though We should send down the angels unto them, and the dead should speak unto them, and We should gather against them all things in array, they would not believe unless Allah so willed. Howbeit, most of them are ignorant.

SHAKIR: And even if We had sent down to them the angels and the dead had spoken to them and We had brought together all things before them, they would not believe unless Allah pleases, but most of them are ignorant.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

006.123

YUSUFALI: Thus have We placed leaders in every town, its wicked men, to plot (and burrow) therein: but they only plot against their own souls, and they perceive it not.

PICKTHAL: And thus have We made in every city great ones of its wicked ones, that they should plot therein. They do but plot against themselves, though they perceive not.

SHAKIR: And thus have We made in every town the great ones to be its guilty ones, that they may plan therein; and they do not plan but against their own souls, and they do not perceive.

 

 

 

 

 

 

006.125

YUSUFALI: Those whom Allah (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth Allah (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe.

PICKTHAL: And whomsoever it is Allah's will to guide, He expandeth his bosom unto the Surrender, and whomsoever it is His Will to send astray, He maketh his bosom close and narrow as if he were engaged in sheer ascent. Thus Allah layeth ignominy upon those who believe not.

SHAKIR: Therefore (for) whomsoever Allah intends that He would guide him aright, He expands his breast for Islam, and (for) whomsoever He intends that He should cause him to err, He makes his breast strait and narrow as though he were ascending upwards; thus does Allah lay uncleanness on those who do not believe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

008.018

YUSUFALI: That, and also because Allah is He Who makes feeble the plans and stratagem of the Unbelievers.

PICKTHAL: That (is the case); and (know) that Allah (it is) Who maketh weak the plan of disbelievers.

SHAKIR: This, and that Allah is the weakener of the struggle of the unbelievers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

008.030

YUSUFALI: Remember how the Unbelievers plotted against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home). They plot and plan, and Allah too plans; but the best of planners is Allah.

PICKTHAL: And when those who disbelieve plot against thee (O Muhammad) to wound thee fatally, or to kill thee or to drive thee forth; they plot, but Allah (also) plotteth; and Allah is the best of plotters.

SHAKIR: And when those who disbelieved devised plans against you that they might confine you or slay you or drive you away; and they devised plans and Allah too had arranged a plan; and Allah is the best of planners.

 

 

 

 

 

009.055

YUSUFALI: Let not their wealth nor their (following in) sons dazzle thee: in reality Allah's plan is to punish them with these things in this life, and that their souls may perish in their (very) denial of Allah.

PICKTHAL: So let not their riches nor their children please thee (O Muhammad). Allah thereby intendeth but to punish them in the life of the world and that their souls shall pass away while they are disbelievers.

SHAKIR: Let not then their property and their children excite your admiration; Allah only wishes to chastise them with these in this world's life and (that) their souls may depart while they are unbelievers.

 

 

 

 

 

010.021

YUSUFALI: When We make mankind taste of some mercy after adversity hath touched them, behold! they take to plotting against Our Signs! Say: "Swifter to plan is Allah!" Verily, Our messengers record all the plots that ye make!

PICKTHAL: And when We cause mankind to taste of mercy after some adversity which had afflicted them, behold! they have some plot against Our revelations. Say: Allah is more swift in plotting. Lo! Our messengers write down that which ye plot.

SHAKIR: And when We make people taste of mercy after an affliction touches them, lo ! they devise plans against Our communication. Say: Allah is quicker to plan; surely Our messengers write down what you plan.

 

 

 

 

 

 

014.046

YUSUFALI: Mighty indeed were the plots which they made, but their plots were (well) within the sight of Allah, even though they were such as to shake the hills!

PICKTHAL: Verily they have plotted their plot, and their plot is with Allah, though their plot were one whereby the mountains should be moved.

SHAKIR: And they have indeed planned their plan, but their plan is with Allah, though their plan was such that the mountains should pass away thereby.

 

 

 

 

 

 

042.049

YUSUFALI: To Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. He creates what He wills (and plans). He bestows (children) male or female according to His Will (and Plan),

PICKTHAL: Unto Allah belongeth the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth. He createth what He will. He bestoweth female (offspring) upon whom He will, and bestoweth male (offspring) upon whom He will;

SHAKIR: Allah's is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth; He creates what He pleases; He grants to whom He pleases daughters and grants to whom He pleases sons.

 

 

 

 

 

043.079

YUSUFALI: What! have they settled some plan (among themselves)? But it is We Who settle things.

PICKTHAL: Or do they determine any thing (against the Prophet)? Lo! We (also) are determining.

SHAKIR: Or have they settled an affair? Then surely We are the settlers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

105.001

YUSUFALI: Seest thou not how thy Lord dealt with the Companions of the Elephant?

PICKTHAL: Hast thou not seen how thy Lord dealt with the owners of the Elephant?

SHAKIR: Have you not considered how your Lord dealt with the possessors of the elephant?

105.002

YUSUFALI: Did He not make their treacherous plan go astray?

PICKTHAL: Did He not bring their stratagem to naught,

SHAKIR: Did He not cause their war to end in confusion,

105.003

YUSUFALI: And He sent against them Flights of Birds,

PICKTHAL: And send against them swarms of flying creatures,

SHAKIR: And send down (to prey) upon them birds in flocks,

105.004

YUSUFALI: Striking them with stones of baked clay.

PICKTHAL: Which pelted them with stones of baked clay,

SHAKIR: Casting against them stones of baked clay,

105.005

YUSUFALI: Then did He make them like an empty field of stalks and straw, (of which the corn) has been eaten up.

PICKTHAL: And made them like green crops devoured (by cattle)?

SHAKIR: So He rendered them like straw eaten up? [using large font size is not allowed]

 

 

I have more information from the Sunnah, but these are from Qur'an and they were more than I expected. I hope these verses explain what you were asking about.

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Yusha,

Not one word of yours explains any of it, but thanks anyway.

Perhaps you need to re-read the original post.

I'll check back every week or so.

Maybe someone'll show up who can explain my question.

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About unimportant tahrif, please see my last post.

 

Is this what I'm supposed to see?

 

"It has to do with man being wise enough to see that Almighty God would NOT fail to carry out His plan!"

 

You are assuming that allowing man to alter His message was a failure of executing His plan. You are assuming that for His plan to work, He had to protect the Bible. And then you're claiming that my analogy with Him allowing man to sin, in the same way He allowed His scriptures to be corrupted, is unrelated.

 

How do you excuse the fact that we're sinning? Is God failing to prevent us from doing so? Instead of asking me to read your response to someone else, and not answering this directly, I would like a response.

 

That means He can enter a human body and stay there for 33 years!.

WOW, impossible, stupid, crazy, doesn't agree with your reasoning, etc., right?

 

And sleep, and feel hunger, and feel pain, and...oh, right, die.

 

Impossible, stupid, crazy, doesn't agree with my reasoning...your words, not mine. Plus, you're going off on a tangent, so please do not turn this topic into an attempt to proselytize Christianity. You're "enquiring" about why God would allow His scripture to be altered. I gave you the reason, to test those who would follow the claims of men. You have no reason to get defensive over your beliefs that God became a man.

 

Salam.

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Yusha,

Not one word of yours explains any of it, but thanks anyway.

Perhaps you need to re-read the original post.

I'll check back every week or so.

Maybe someone'll show up who can explain my question.

 

You're dismissing people's words left and right by saying they don't explain what you're claiming. Maybe the problem is simply that...

 

You, Ameer7, have a distinct set of understandings about who God is, what His reasonings are, and what He would/wouldn't do, and really can't see beyond that.

 

I don't know why you would want to argue with Muslims anymore than I would want to argue with a Christian - if you're going to base everything on your personal beliefs. Because we aalllll have those.

 

Salam.

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Question: Can Almighty God’s Plans Be Defeated? Answer: Never. But a lot depends on which god you are talking about. If you are talking about a god that died or a god that came in the form of a human being, then such god is already defeated. Such a god don't exist.

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Redeem,

 

No, you were supposed to see …

“If adding/subtracting/changing some books, chapters, verses, clauses, phrases, words, etc.

does NOT alter God's plan and His message, do you think He is going to care?

I.E. How many times do His spiritual truths have to be repeated in His Scriptures?â€

 

My preface is always …

“Almighty God orchestrated thousands of years of history to have His precious Scriptures written.â€

I.E. This was all very very serious stuff indeed.

 

My response …

IF Almighty God allowed man to alter His major important doctrines in His Scripture,

then He obviously FAILED to protect them and FAILED in this grand purpose of His.

Giving angels and men FREE WILL was ALWAYS foremost in God’s mind and plan.

Giving man free will is NOT an analogy with allowing man to destroy His plan.

God allowing man to sin is in NO way a related parallel to God NOT allowing man to destroy His plan.

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Redeem,

 

No, you were supposed to see …

“If adding/subtracting/changing some books, chapters, verses, clauses, phrases, words, etc.

does NOT alter God's plan and His message, do you think He is going to care?

I.E. How many times do His spiritual truths have to be repeated in His Scriptures?â€

 

Oh, we're playing semantic games? My turn!

 

If I take a copy of the Bible and take a white-out, which I use to erase parts of it and then insert my own words into it...

 

Guess what I have done?

 

I have, according to your logic, "defeated God's plan". I can add, subtract, and change books, verses, clauses, phrases, words, etc. Question is, do you think that God will smite me before I accomplish this, or is it part of His plan that I carry out my actions?

 

IF Almighty God allowed man to alter His major important doctrines in His Scripture,

then He obviously FAILED to protect them and FAILED in this grand purpose of His.

 

So again, according to your logic, God is a failure if Redeem changes any parts of the Bible tonight. Right?

 

Giving angels and men FREE WILL was ALWAYS foremost in God’s mind and plan.

 

And man exercises that FREE WILL by changing what God has revealed. By the way, you're doing God an injustice by saying that His plan is nothing more than what He has revealed. His plan is far greater than that, and if men corrupt the earth, their souls, or His message, that is all part of His plan.

 

God allowing man to sin is in NO way a related parallel to God NOT allowing man to destroy His plan.

 

God allowing man to sin = a display of free will

God allowing man to alter His message = a display of free will

 

They are the same. Free will is part of God's plan.

 

Salam.

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Redeem,

Is there a difference between being insane and out your mind?

Your answer deserves no response.

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Redeem,

Is there a difference between being insane and out your mind?

 

They are synonymous. :sl:

 

Salam.

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I believe most people reading this thread are intelligent enough to understand that

one person making alterations to his personal Bible is NOT affecting God's plan one little iota.

 

And the question remains ... Can Almighty God's plans be defeated?

 

If no one has any kind of reasonable affirmative answer, then we can conclude that ...

NO ONE (not even Satan) is powerful enough to defeat God and His plans.

 

One of God's plans was to produce His precious Scriptures.

He orchestrated thousands of years of history in order to accomplish this,

and this whole undertaking was done to explain to the whole world:

-- what the hell is going on with Him, Satan, the spirit world, and man.

-- His merciful solution for how man can get himself accepted into Heaven.

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I believe most people reading this thread are intelligent enough to understand that

one person making alterations to his personal Bible is NOT affecting God's plan one little iota.

 

Now you're just making up rules. "One person doesn't work." Next you'll be saying, "It has to be at least 20 people, all male, wearing robes and having thick white beards".

 

Nonetheless, if one person making alterations does not affect God's plan, then neither will millions. Because God's plan is not limited to His message to mankind. It is greater than that.

 

One of God's plans was to produce His precious Scriptures.

He orchestrated thousands of years of history in order to accomplish this,

and this whole undertaking was done to explain to the whole world:

 

I hope this isn't based on the Bible, because it makes God seem weak. As if He was slaving away for eons and then mischievous humans came along and messed it all up.

 

And the other thing wrong with your statements is this;

 

You're assuming that the "end product" of God's plan was the Bible. Perhaps God allowed the Bible to be altered so that it would set the ball rolling for the final revelation, which has not /will not be changed until the end of time. Because, this time, preserving it is part of His plan.

 

P.S.: Do you believe everything the Torah revealed? Do you agree with Jews on all of their laws? Just curious.

 

Salam.

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I believe most people reading this thread are intelligent enough to understand that

one person making alterations to his personal Bible is NOT affecting God's plan one little iota.

 

There is evidence that the Bible has been changed. I'll copy and paste a reply that I have previously written:

 

"But I'll show you passages that the Jews changed in the Torah according to their own sources:

 

Commentary on Gen. 18:22

 

The two men turned62 and headed63 toward Sodom, but Abraham was still standing before the Lord.

 

64tc An ancient Hebrew scribal tradition reads “but the Lord remained standing before Abraham.” This reading is problematic because the phrase “standing before” typically indicates intercession, but the Lord would certainly not be interceding before Abraham.

 

Commentary on Num. 11:15

 

But if you are going to deal37 with me like this, then kill me immediately.38 If I have found favor in your sight then do not let me see my trouble.”39

 

39tn Or “my own ruin” (NIV). The word “trouble” here probably refers to the stress and difficulty of caring for a complaining group of people. The suffix on the noun would be objective, perhaps stressing the indirect object of the noun – trouble for me. The expression “on my trouble” (בְּרָעָתִי, bÿra’ati) is one of the so-called tiqqune sopherim, or “emendations of the scribes.” According to this tradition the original reading in v. 15 was [to look] “on your evil” (בְּרָעָתֶךָ, bÿra’atekha), meaning “the calamity that you bring about” for israel. However, since such an expression could be mistakenly thought to attribute evil to the Lord, the ancient scribes changed it to the reading found in the MT.

 

Commentary on Num. 12:12

 

Do not let her be like a baby born dead, whose flesh is half-consumed when it comes out of its23 mother’s womb!”

 

23tc The words “its mother” and “its flesh” are among the so-called tiqqune sopherim, or “emendations of the scribes.” According to this tradition the text originally had here “our mother” and “our flesh,” but the ancient scribes changed these pronouns from the first person to the third person. Apparently they were concerned that the image of Moses’ mother giving birth to a baby with physical defects of the sort described here was somehow inappropriate, given the stature and importance of Moses.

 

Taken from (you are not allowed to post links yet)"http://######/netbible/index.htm"]http://######/netbible/index.htm[/url]

 

Here we have three passages from the Torah that have been altered by the Jews, and these alterations are found in all manuscripts and all translations. They are also in the Septuagint.

 

There are other passages in the Hebrew Bible that have been changed but I'll just focus on the ones mentioned in the Torah. The other corruptions are 1 Sam. 3:13, 2 Sam. 16:12, 1 Kgs. 12:16, 2 Chr. 10:16, Job 7:20, Job 32:3, Ps. 106:20, Jer. 2:11, Lam. 3:20, Ezk. 8:17, Hosea 4:7, Hab. 1:12, Zech. 2:8, Mal. 1:13.

 

Okay, let's look at the significance of these changes. They were all done for theological reasons. Two were done because the original readings were offensive, or potentially inapproriate, towards God and one was found inappropriate regarding Moses, peace be upon him, who is viewed by the Jews as the greatest Prophet of all time. These changes are nothing but corruptions. To give you an analogy from an Islamic perspective, it is like me trying to change a verse in the Qur'an where it says that God created Adam, peace be upon him, with His Hands because I find the expression "with His Hands" inappropriate in regards to God. Ask any Muslim what they would think if I changed the Qur'an from the original "He created Adam with His Hands" to "He created Adam in a special manner". They would think it is a corruption, severe tampering of the text. The same applies to these corruptions that were made by the Jews (and they are found both in the Masoretic text and the Septuagint and all the translations of the Bible).

 

Do you know to whom these changes are ascribed to? The men of the Great Assembly. Have you ever heard of them? If you haven't, well, then you don't know much about the historical transmission of the Torah and the rest of the Hebrew Bible. They are the ones who decided what the Hebrew Bible's canon should include.

 

For more information about tikkun soferim you can read the following link:

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetsylvaniachristian(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=230&Itemid=161"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetsylvaniachristian(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php...&Itemid=161[/url]

 

And you can also read Marc B. Shapiro's: "Maimonides' Thirteen Principles: The

Last Word in Jewish Theology?". Shapiro's work doesn't deal with the tikkun soferim but it discusses them at one point. You can donwload his work online. I think I got it from his wikipedia page. I have it on my computer and I can upload it. The work lists many Jewish sources that mention the tikkun soferim. As a matter of fact, I'll just copy it here.

 

"Rabbinic sources speak of tikkun soferim, i.e. textual changes introduced

by the scribes, some of which concern the Torah.134 According to the

Tanhuma 135 and Yalkut ha-Makhirt, l36 it was the anshei kenesset hagedolah

who changed certain words in the Torah. The Masoretic work

Okhlah ve-Okhlah137 and R. Joshua Lisser138 credit Ezra with the textual

changes. The 'Arukh,139 Rashi,140 R. David Kimhi,l41 Yemenite Masorah,

142 and Shemot Rabbah as explained by the standard Midrashic commentary

Matanot Kehunah 143 (which is actually the clear meaning of the text), are

also explicit that the biblical text was changed by the Soferim. Although

lacking in our texts, there are some versions of Shemot Rabbah 13:2 which

also contain this explanation""

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Wait... are you arguing that God would not let his previous books be changed therefore Christianity is correct? Because if so, not only do we have proof that the Gospels have been changed, but we also have an enormous amount of evidence that the gospels we have today were written by people that did not even see Jesus (as) once. There were literally hundreds of different gospels, and those four we have today won by a mere three votes of over a thousand in total. You could say that God willed those Gospels to win, but then those Gospels as well have been changed. Compare that to the Qur'an which has literally not a single letter altered (the ones that do were actually translated into other Arabic dialects.) And more than that, if you do believe that God would not let his word be lost, then what about the books that Abraham or Noah (peace be upon them) wrote? Some religions actually do claim to have their books. It makes more sense that God would choose to end his revelations once a religion was very well established, as was Islam. Also, a lot of things in the Gospels are found in a multitude of different religions. Many secular scholars today, and even some Christian ones themselves, admit that a lot of the Gospels came directly from Pagan religions.

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You're assuming that the "end product" of God's plan was the Bible.

Sure, I assume that ... especially since the Injil is full of statements and promises that ...

Jesus the Messiah is the only way to God, the only Mediator between man and God,

the Giver of eternal life, etc. ... 70+ verses claim these things, plus ...

He is God, is equal to the Father, is the Creator, and is now the Sustainer.

Never a hint of any further prophet, revelation, testament, way, Savior, etc.

 

P.S.: Do you believe everything the Torah revealed? Do you agree with Jews on all of their laws?

Of course, it was ALL meant for the israelites of that day.

GOD's #1 REASON FOR GIVING THE IMPOSSIBLE LAW

TO PROVE IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANY MAN TO BE OBEDIENT AND SATISFY THE DEMANDS OF A HOLY GOD.

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Younes in Finla,

Perhaps, you'd like to enlighten all of us just what effect these changes of yours

had on the plans and purposes of Almighty God, which, as you recall,

were very few and simple and basic (only 2 major purposes actually).

P.S. Please refresh your memory on the Thread Title.

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Younes in Finla,

Perhaps, you'd like to enlighten all of us just what effect these changes of yours

had on the plans and purposes of Almighty God, which, as you recall,

were very few and simple and basic (only 2 major purposes actually).

P.S. Please refresh your memory on the Thread Title.

 

It is quite simple. The original text that God dictated to Moses, peace be upon him, supposedly read differently than what we have in our text. The changes might be very simple and few to you but in reality they are major changes. Those changes served to corrupt the original text like I explained in my post so they are not just simple, basic changes. So my question would be why wasn't the orginal reading that God dictated to Moses retained (the Jews believe that God dicated the Torah word for word to Moses)? Was God impotent from preserving the original? Did God make a mistake when he first dicated the Torah to Moses? Did men of the Great Assembly know better than God and Moses? Re-read my original post.

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It is quite simple. The original text that God dictated to Moses, peace be upon him, supposedly read differently than what we have in our text. The changes might be very simple and few to you but in reality they are major changes. Those changes served to corrupt the original text like I explained in my post so they are not just simple, basic changes. So my question would be why wasn't the orginal reading that God dictated to Moses retained (the Jews believe that God dicated the Torah word for word to Moses)? Was God impotent from preserving the original? Did God make a mistake when he first dicated the Torah to Moses? Did men of the Great Assembly know better than God and Moses? Re-read my original post.

I didn't see anything major at all in your discourse.

For what I mean by MAJOR, please see the other thread I started.

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