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kathleen01

Americans Hate Islam

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Im sorry i noticied i have a few spelling errors in my post. Please forgive me, im sure you know what im meaning to say though.

:sl:

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PropellerAds
Did I say people should like it? Why do you make so many assumptions, blip?

 

OK, so that means you agree and think people shouldn't like it, even though you like it.

 

Stop using these strawman arguements. The issue is obviously a bit more complex and less black and white than you make it seem, even according to non-Muslims historians.

 

What is complex about that agreement of humiliation?? Perhaps what might be uncertain or complex is the end where it says that if they do not keep this, then Muslims are allowed to do with them what they do with the rebellious, which I think means, kill them. I(f we look at 9:5 and it's subsequent tafsir, it would appear that the pagans didn't have the option of humiliating dhiimiship, which is why a , rather sarcastically, said that Muhammad was nice to the Christians.

 

(5. So when the Sacred Months have passed, then fight the Mushrikin wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform the Salah, and give the Zakah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.)

 

This is the Ayah of the Sword

 

Mujahid, `Amr bin Shu`ayb, Muhammad bin Ishaq, Qatadah, As-Suddi and `Abdur-Rahman bin Zayd bin Aslam said that the four months mentioned in this Ayah are the four-month grace period mentioned in the earlier Ayah,

 

[ÃóÓöíÃõæÇú Ãöì ÇáÇøñÑúÖö ÃóÑúÈóÚóÉó ÃóÔúåõÑò]

 

(So travel freely for four months throughout the land.) Allah said next,

 

[ÃóÅöÃóÇ ÇäÓóáóÎó ÇáÃóÔúåõÑõ ÇáúÃõÑõãõ]

 

(So when the Sacred Months have passed...), meaning, `Upon the end of the four months during which We prohibited you from fighting the idolators, and which is the grace period We gave them, then fight and kill the idolators wherever you may find them.' Allah's statement next,

 

[ÃóÇÞúÊõáõæÇú ÇáúãõÔúÑößöíäó ÃóíúËõ æóÌóÃÊøõãõæåõãú]

 

(then fight the Mushrikin wherever you find them), means, on the earth in general, except for the Sacred Area, for Allah said,

 

[æóáÇó ÊõÞóÜÊöáõæåõãú ÚöäÃó ÇáúãóÓúÌöÃö ÇáúÃóÑóÇãö ÃóÊøóì íõÞóÜÊöáõæßõãú Ãöíåö ÃóÅöä ÞóÜÊóáõæßõãú ÃóÇÞúÊõáõæåõãú]

 

(And fight not with them at Al-Masjid Al-Haram, unless they fight you there. But if they attack you, then fight them. )[2:191] Allah said here,

 

[æóÎõÃõæåõãú]

 

(and capture them), executing some and keeping some as prisoners,

 

[æóÇÃúÕõÑõæåõãú æóÇÞúÚõÃõæÇú áóåõãú ßõáøó ãóÑúÕóÃò]

 

(and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush), do not wait until you find them. Rather, seek and besiege them in their areas and forts, gather intelligence about them in the various roads and fairways so that what is made wide looks ever smaller to them. This way, they will have no choice, but to die or embrace Islam,

 

[ÃóÅöä ÊóÇÈõæÇú æóÃóÞóÇãõæÇú ÇáÕøóáóæÉó æóÃÇÊóæõÇú ÇáÒøóßóæÉó ÃóÎóáøõæÇú ÓóÈöíáóåõãú Åöäøó Çááøóåó ÛóÃõæÑñ ÑøóÃöíãñ]

 

(But if they repent and perform the Salah, and give the Zakah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.) Abu Bakr As-Siddiq used this and other honorable Ayat as proof for fighting those who refrained from paying the Zakah. These Ayat allowed fighting people unless, and until, they embrace Islam and implement its rulings and obligations. Allah mentioned the most important aspects of Islam here, including what is less important. Surely, the highest elements of Islam after the Two Testimonials, are the prayer, which is the right of Allah, the Exalted and Ever High, then the Zakah, which benefits the poor and needy. These are the most honorable acts that creatures perform, and this is why Allah often mentions the prayer and Zakah together. In the Two Sahihs, it is recorded that Ibn `Umar said that the Messenger of Allah said,

 

«ÃõãöÑúÊõ Ãóäú ÃõÞóÇÊöáó ÇáäøóÇÓó ÃóÊøóì íóÔúåóÃõæÇ Ãóäú áóÇ Åöáóåó ÅöáøóÇ Çááåõ æóÃóäøó ãõÃóãøóÃðÇ ÑóÓõæáõ Çááåö æóíõÞöíãõæÇ ÇáÕøóáóÇÉó æóíõÄúÊõæÇ ÇáÒøóßóÇÉ»

 

(I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, establish the prayer and pay the Zakah.) This honorable Ayah (9:5) was called the Ayah of the Sword, about which Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim said, "It abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolator, every treaty, and every term.'' Al-`Awfi said that Ibn `Abbas commented: "No idolator had any more treaty or promise of safety ever since Surah Bara'ah was revealed. The four months, in addition to, all peace treaties conducted before Bara'ah was revealed and announced had ended by the tenth of the month of Rabi` Al-Akhir.''

 

(6. And if anyone of the Mushrikin seeks your protection then grant him protection so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Qur'an) and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not.)

 

Allah said to His Prophet, peace be upon him,

 

[æóÅöäú ÃóÃóÃñ ãøöäó ÇáúãõÔúÑößöíäó]

 

(And if anyone of the Mushrikin), whom you were commanded to fight and We allowed you their blood and property,'

 

[ÇÓúÊóÌóÇÑóßó]

 

(seeks your protection), asked you for safe passage, then accept his request until he hears the Words of Allah, the Qur'an. Recite the Qur'an to him and mention a good part of the religion with which you establish Allah's proof against him,

 

[Ëõãøó ÃóÈúáöÛúåõ ãóÃúãóäóåõ]

 

(and then escort him to where he can be secure) and safe, until he goes back to his land, his home, and area of safety,

 

[Ãóáößó ÈöÃóäøóåõãú Þóæúãñ áÇøó íóÚúáóãõæäó]

 

(that is because they are men who know not.) The Ayah says, `We legislated giving such people safe passage so that they may learn about the religion of Allah, so that Allah's call will spread among His servants. Ibn Abi Najih narrated that Mujahid said that this Ayah, "Refers to someone who comes to you to hear what you say and what was revealed to you (O Muhammad). Therefore, he is safe until he comes to you, hears Allah's Words and then proceeds to the safe area where he came from.'' The Messenger of Allah used to thereafter grant safe passage to those who came to him for guidance or to deliver a message. On the day of Hudaybiyyah, several emissaries from Quraysh came to him, such as `Urwah bin Mas`ud, Mikraz bin Hafs, Suhayl bin `Amr and several others. They came mediating between him and the Quraysh pagans. They witnessed the great respect the Muslims had for the Prophet , which astonished them, for they never before saw such respect for anyone, kings nor czars. They went back to their people and conveyed this news to them; this, among other reasons, was one reason that most of them accepted the guidance. When Musaylimah the Liar sent an emissary to the Messenger of Allah, he asked him, "Do you testify that Musaylimah is a messenger from Allah'' He said, "Yes.'' The Messenger of Allah said,

 

«áóæúáóÇ Ãóäøó ÇáÑøõÓõáó áóÇ ÊõÞúÊóáõ áóÖóÑóÈúÊõ ÚõäõÞóß»

 

(I would have cut off your head, if it was not that emissaries are not killed.) That man, Ibn An-Nawwahah, was later beheaded when `Abdullah bin Mas`ud was the governor of Al-Kufah. When it became known that he still testified that Musaylimah was a messenger from Allah, Ibn Mas`ud summoned him and said to him, "You are not delivering a message now!'' He commanded that Ibn An-Nawwahah be decapitated, may Allah curse him and deprive him of His mercy. In summary, those who come from a land at war with Muslims to the area of Islam, delivering a message, for business transactions, to negotiate a peace treaty, to pay the Jizyah, to offer an end to hostilities, and so forth, and request safe passage from Muslim leaders or their deputies, should be granted safe passage, as long as they remain in Muslim areas, until they go back to their land and sanctuary.

 

As far as straw man goes, there's nothing straw man about it. You are misusing and parroting a term that you don't even understand. And let's not foirget, you are the one throwing all of the personal insults, not me.

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OK, so that means you agree and think people shouldn't like it, even though you like it.

 

Did I say people shouldn't like it? You do know that you make a lot of assumptions, baseless ones at that?

 

What is complex about that agreement of humiliation?? Perhaps what might be uncertain or complex is the end where it says that if they do not keep this, then Muslims are allowed to do with them what they do with the rebellious, which I think means, kill them. I(f we look at 9:5 and it's subsequent tafsir, it would appear that the pagans didn't have the option of humiliating dhiimiship, which is why a , rather sarcastically, said that Muhammad was nice to the Christians.

 

The non-Muslims didn't have to serve in the army and the Muslims had to fight for them. The non-Muslims would receive charity from the Muslim state treasury if they were poor. Only men who could serve in the army had to pay Jizyah. Poor people, women, children and monks were exempt. The non-Muslims had their honour guaranteed (please don't make a sarcastic comeback). For example, Umar had the son of his Egyptian governor beaten because he beat a Copt - in public by the Copt. He had a Masjid demolished because it was illegally built on a Jew's land. Am I saying that it was Paradise? No. Was it as your trying to portray it, a society of constant humiliation and disgrace? No.

 

Yes, I probably thought that's why you said that Muhammad (pbuh) was particularly nice to Christians. Yes, the Pagans were fought, but they weren't killed. It wasn't a convert or die thing. For example, the Prophet (pbuh) freed the Meccans. He asked them what would did they think that he was going to do with them. They responded to him that he is a noble brother, son of a noble brother. Then the Prophet (pbuh) told them that he says to them the same same thing as Joseph (pbuh) said to his brothers, "Go for you are free". If you have read the Bible, you'll know that Joseph's (pbuh) brothers sold him into slavery. We discussed this another thread.

 

If the non-Muslims, were rebellious it didn't mean that you were allowed to kill them. Penalise them, yes. You are just reading your own preconcieved thoughts into the text - a reoccuring thing.

 

As far as straw man goes, there's nothing straw man about it. You are misusing and parroting a term that you don't even understand. And let's not foirget, you are the one throwing all of the personal insults, not me.

 

Those aren't insults. When I call you out on lies (war booty being burnt) and totally ignoring/not understanding history (the story about the hypocrites of Medina), I am not personally insulting you. For example, I haven't "insulted" you in this thread because you haven't said anything controversial. I don't excpet you as a non-Muslim to like Islamic rule.

 

By the way, your arguement is a classic straw man, an oversimplified misrepresentation to an extreme and mixed with your preconcieved thoughts (for example, a rebellious Muslim was instantly allowed to be killed). That is why I told you that the issue is more complex and less black and white than you make it seem.

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Did I say people should like it? Why do you make so many assumptions, blip?

Did I say people shouldn't like it? You do know that you make a lot of assumptions, baseless ones at that?

 

OK, so people shouldn't have an opinion about it at all?? What kind of a weird, contradictory tap dance is this??

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Why do you lump Christian fundamentalists in with nazis and football hooligans? I think the film really shows who should stand along side at least with the football hooligans. Christians, even fundamentalists(who I don't agree with) don't riot when they feel slighted and they understand what freedom of expression is. The muslim extremists and are in a class of their own.

 

 

Narrow minded bigots tend to be very much the same, whatever colour they're painted. Haven't you noticed yet?

 

kb

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Narrow minded bigots tend to be very much the same, whatever colour they're painted. Haven't you noticed yet?

 

kb

Yes, they do come in many colours. But to link Christian fundamentalists to nazis is ridiculous. Yes they can go overboard, but they don't call for the extermination of anyone. The occasional pro life nut will kill an abortion doctor but the vast majority are waiting for the rapture, where in their opinion, Christians will be saved by Jesus and the rest of us will find a much more unpleasant fate. They don't call for the death of someone at the slightest provocation. We all know who acts that way.

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Hey Keith, why do you try to dilute or even ignore that video by pointing to bigotry in general when it wasn't just a couple of Muslims in the room that reacted that way, they all seemed to react that way?? And these weren't uneducated Muslims, they were all students of varying ages in a good university.

 

When are people going to stop diluting and over justifying what is clearly right in front of their eyes?? You have a self flagellating, guilt complex about yourself that leads many others like yourself with the same ailment into over intellectualization of the situation. Yes, believe it or not, it IS possible to over intellectualize and unnecessarily self flagellate oneself, and that is the precise problem that Europe has, and if you consider birth rates of the Trojan Horse Stealth Jihad, European culture will disappear. That's a fact. And you're fine with it. In fact, you'll open the gates for them. Do you understand the political aspects of Islam and the overall rationale behind it?? I doubt it.

 

Go to a Bible belt University and go play an anti Jesus film and see if you would get the same reaction. I get so tired of these excuses being made for what is right in front of blinded people's eyes.

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