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I Think Hell Is A Myth

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I Think Hell Is A Myth, ATT: Muslims and Christians

 

You can think whatever you like. People are known to come up with all kinds of weird thoughts and ideas.

 

We only care for the opinion of Allah and His Messenger (saws). And since your thoughts and beliefs are contrary to their opinion, it's clear that you are a disbeliever. And to engage in a discussion with you would only be a waste of precious time.

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A.O.A: What is Myth? is life after death is Myth? I accept with my depths,that if life is once & there is no eternal life--then this life on Earth is also a Myth and super creature (man) is the worst among all the creatures to suffering more & gain nothing. Life subject to death is not the meaning of life at all, as life( should hasn's any end.But as this life is a pont of time compare to the eternal life.But this pont of time has also for the very great cause to test--passing the test has rewards & failuare has what...? The real indifferent is our lone & one creator-Allah( WORTHY TO WORSHIP).HIS MAJESTY IS MORE & MORE REAL THAN ANY LOVE's concept ,but it does not mean that he has some compulsions of LOVE ,etc,etc. as men have. He Has real life ,love etc,etc ,what we have been granted are His creatures like us AND HE has no partner either in KHLQ(physical creating attribute) or IN AMR(non-physical creating attribute)

Thanks &Regards,.

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A.O.A: What is Myth? is life after death is Myth? I accept with my depths,that if life is once & there is no eternal life--then this life on Earth is also a Myth and super creature (man) is the worst among all the creatures to suffering more & gain nothing. Life subject to death is not the meaning of life at all, as life( should hasn's any end.But as this life is a pont of time compare to the eternal life.But this pont of time has also for the very great cause to test--passing the test has rewards & failuare has what...? The real indifferent is our lone & one creator-Allah( WORTHY TO WORSHIP).HIS MAJESTY IS MORE & MORE REAL THAN ANY LOVE's concept ,but it does not mean that he has some compulsions of LOVE ,etc,etc. as men have. He Has real life ,love etc,etc ,what we have been granted are His creatures like us AND HE has no partner either in KHLQ(physical creating attribute) or IN AMR(non-physical creating attribute)

Thanks &Regards,.

 

I do believe in life after death (eternal life) because Jesus taught it. He did not however, teach us about eternal hell. Well, we might get into a spiritual discussion here about what the soul is and its purpose.....

 

Scientists talking about parallel universe, in other words Paradise and Hell

 

I have not watched the video, but yes, let's discuss science....

 

Just a couple of questions.

 

1) Is Hellfire rejected by all Unitarians? Meaning, just how many Christians agree with you? (Because Hell is not disputed in Islam. Jahanam is one of many names and descriptions for Hell, so like I said, this is not an unclear issue for Muslims).

 

2) If there is no Hell, is there no Heaven as well?

 

Salam.

 

1.) There a various Unitarian groups, but yes many/most don't, so do Universalists.

2.) Heaven is not the opposite of hell....

 

Salam to you too.

Edited by samantha-g

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I have not watched the video, but yes, let's discuss science....

 

then watch the video , and yes we can discuss science, and there is a lot of science in the holy Quran

 

God informed us in quran, about many things wich modern science confirmed latest 100 years, like Big bang, expanding universe, that origin of the universe was in smoke state, that universe is flat, about pulsars, that moon orbit is like S-form, that that universe can look like a red rose (nebula photographed 1999 by NASA look like in form of a red rose) , and many more things about embriology, oceanology, biology, geology and many more things, which is a real proof that quran can only bee from God and no from muhammed or any other human.

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1.) There a various Unitarian groups, but yes many/most don't, so do Universalists.

 

I meant to say that many/most do reject hell!!!!!

Edited by samantha-g

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Hello Lost in Paradise,

 

No apology necessary, but thank you. :sl:

 

It still does not make sense. If Sheol is a place for child sacrifice then why is it for wicked people and all the nations that forget God? I need you to explain this a bit more.

 

Sheol means grave and is not the same place as Gehenna. Gehenna used to be a place of child sacrifice and then during the time of Jesus it was a place where garbage and the corpses of criminals were disposed of by burning. Gehenna and sheol are translated as hell in many Bibles and it has been this way only since 400 AD when the ideas of hell and that only Christians went to heaven became popular, but in the manuscripts and Bible translations before then, Gehenna/Sheol were used. Hell - a place of eternal punishment - was not believed by the earliest Christians.

 

I did read it in full but you are just saying there are consequences in this life. Like I said not all people get what they deserve in this life and that is just reality.

Why teach moral conduct if we are going to heaven anyway? Does it really matter if I murder someone because I am going to heaven in your view, especially if the person does not repent for their sin.

 

And you still havent answered a lot of my questions regarding does God judge people, why disbelievers are valuable to God, judgement day, story of Noah and justice. I hope you can answer them soon because you are being selective in your answering..

 

And just out of curiosity which parts of the bible do you not believe in?

 

Like I said in the original post, if we cannot obey God's commands out of Love for him, there is a problem. Our only motivation for being good should be love. If not, we have not fulfilled the commands, "Love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your strength and with all your understanding," and "love your neighbour as yourself." Being good just because you fear hell doesn’t mean much, but doing so because you love God is precious. It does matter if you murder someone because murder is wrong and causes a lot of pain, and we were commanded not to commit murder by God.

 

You are interpreting heaven as a place of material rewards.

 

Each person is valuable because they were created in the likeness of God and have the Breath of Life within them. God’s love is all encompassing and all pervading, and greater that any human love. When people came to Jesus and asked him to heal them, he did not first ask them to proclaim that they believed he was the Messiah or convert to Judaism if they were non-Jews – he just helped them and sometimes helped people even when they did not ask him to. He was compassionate and loving, and there is no way he can outdo God, is there? So how can we say that God will only embrace us if we become Muslims or Christians, etc. (and then also say that He misguides us and then punishes us)? I don’t know if you are a mother, but is there anything that can make a mother or father not love their child? They may say that they disown them out of anger, but deep down they will always love the child. God loves us more than our own parents could even dream of loving us and He is forgiving.

 

I think that the notion of disbelievers not being valuable to God is a very dangerous way of thinking, and contravenes the commands not to judge others and also ‘Love your neighbour’ did not come with conditions, and Jesus explained that unbelievers are also our neighbours in the Parable of the Good Samaritan (see Luke 10:25-37). This line of thinking explains why there is more outrage when someone scribbles on a piece of paper and says they have drawn the prophet Muhammad than when Christians are oppressed, persecuted and killed in many Muslim countries since Christians are not valuable to God as ‘disbelievers’. This line of thinking explains why there was such a long and brutal legacy of slavery in Islam, particularly of non-Muslims.

 

Justice is good, but we must not confuse it with revenge. Forgiveness is better than revenge.

 

There are consequences to actions like jail time, or losing the respect of those around you, but everyone deserves a chance to be better, even murderers. I am South African and back home we forgave police and other officials who killed people during apartheid (and I lost some relatives too), and some of these people have turned their lives around, asked for forgiveness and have become good Christians and better people.

 

Yes, God does 'judge' people so they can turn to righteousness. I added quotes to this effect in the original post towards the end.

 

God removed the wicked from the earth in the story of Noah, but where does it say he banished them to hell for eternity?

 

I believe in the Gospels and the Old Testament. There are things though, in the Old Testament that I believe are a result of man’s limited understanding and consciousness in ancient times, like slavery and ‘an eye for an eye’, but Jesus pushed us forward. Another example is Adam and Eve – according to the Bible they lived six to seven thousand years ago, but we know that humans have been around for much longer, so they were not the first humans. I do believe that they existed in Mesopotamia as described in the Bible and that their story represents the true fall of mankind’s state of being. I think the Book of Revelation is partly figurative and some of the things described therein were fulfilled in the early days of Christianity, and others are yet to happen. I have a more spiritual approach to judgement day rather than a totally literalist one.

 

What is the soul and its purpose in your understanding? What is heaven? What is sin?

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Sheol means grave and is not the same place as Gehenna. Gehenna used to be a place of child sacrifice and then during the time of Jesus it was a place where garbage and the corpses of criminals were disposed of by burning. Gehenna and sheol are translated as hell in many Bibles and it has been this way only since 400 AD when the ideas of hell and that only Christians went to heaven became popular, but in the manuscripts and Bible translations before then, Gehenna/Sheol were used. Hell - a place of eternal punishment - was not believed by the earliest Christians.

 

Hi samantha thanks for replying.

If this place was just a garbage dump or a place of child sacrifice my point is why does it say its for the nations who forget God because how do human beings know whats in the hearts of another human being. If it says in the bible the nations who forget God should go there then who is the decider of who goes to this place sheol or geheena? I hope you understand what I mean its hard to explain it in words.

Like I said in the original post, if we cannot obey God's commands out of Love for him, there is a problem. Our only motivation for being good should be love. If not, we have not fulfilled the commands, "Love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your strength and with all your understanding," and "love your neighbour as yourself." Being good just because you fear hell doesn’t mean much, but doing so because you love God is precious. It does matter if you murder someone because murder is wrong and causes a lot of pain, and we were commanded not to commit murder by God.

 

If murder is wrong then what is the punishment? You say it causes pain if they do this sin but let's be honest here there are some people in this world who do not feel guilt or pain if they committed such acts - so what is their punishment for taking the life of another person. If we do not obey Gods commands out of love for him u say there is a problem - so what exactly is this problem? And what happens to people who dont care or dont believe in God. Is God going to treat them the same as a pious person and why? Are there parts in the bible which give you the impression that God treats a religious and evil person the same?

You are interpreting heaven as a place of material rewards.

I don't interpret heaven as a place of material rewards its more of a religious reward. I just believe heaven is a place for good people not for people who are evil.

 

Each person is valuable because they were created in the likeness of God and have the Breath of Life within them. God’s love is all encompassing and all pervading, and greater that any human love. When people came to Jesus and asked him to heal them, he did not first ask them to proclaim that they believed he was the Messiah or convert to Judaism if they were non-Jews – he just helped them and sometimes helped people even when they did not ask him to. He was compassionate and loving, and there is no way he can outdo God, is there? So how can we say that God will only embrace us if we become Muslims or Christians, etc. (and then also say that He misguides us and then punishes us)? I don’t know if you are a mother, but is there anything that can make a mother or father not love their child? They may say that they disown them out of anger, but deep down they will always love the child. God loves us more than our own parents could even dream of loving us and He is forgiving.

 

 

God knows more than we know. There is a reason he misguides us and punishes us here and now. I thought you agree that God punishes us in this life so this shouldn't be an issue. It does not mean he wants us to suffer always because sometimes in life you need that misguidance to realise it is wrong and then God welcomes you back to His path. Often in times of despair people find God. I do not see why that is considered a bad thing because life is a journey and we are always learning and realising what is good and bad for us. God has love we don't understand because even people who reject Him he still gives them life and sustains them and if they repent He can forgive them. But there is a purpose to life and I believe what we do now will have a result. I do not think that we can compare God to a human being in this case by using the mother a child example because God can't be compared to a human. Our feelings as human beings are not necessarily the feelings of God.

 

I think that the notion of disbelievers not being valuable to God is a very dangerous way of thinking, and contravenes the commands not to judge others and also ‘Love your neighbour’ did not come with conditions, and Jesus explained that unbelievers are also our neighbours in the Parable of the Good Samaritan (see Luke 10:25-37). This line of thinking explains why there is more outrage when someone scribbles on a piece of paper and says they have drawn the prophet Muhammad than when Christians are oppressed, persecuted and killed in many Muslim countries since Christians are not valuable to God as ‘disbelievers’. This line of thinking explains why there was such a long and brutal legacy of slavery in Islam, particularly of non-Muslims.

 

There is a purpose for everyone on this planet because God created them it does not mean that God needs them or that they are so valuable to him. This way of thinking like that God loves us all and that he can't punish us actually is disrespectful to God because it is thinking that God can't do something - that it is impossible for God to punish us. If God can do anything then why take this option away? The impression I get is that you are saying because God created us we are going to heaven. It doesn't have logic really - just because God created us we are going to heaven? It also kind of gives the impression that God needs us in heaven. Example the devil - God created the devil for a purpose it does not mean that God needs the devil in heaven. God does not need anything or anyone because God is greater than anything. I get the feeling you were a bit presumptuous here and seem to think I don't treat disbelievers in a good way. My parents are not Muslims so I hope you understand that I do not judge people on the basis of belief. Personally, I treat all people with justice regardless of their beliefs but on the other hand I am not God and I cannot say that what I do is what God does. Just because we do something a certain way, we cant presume that God does.

Jesus (pbuh) told people to respect their neighbours just like Muhammad (pbuh) did and so of course we should follow this. Others well then they aren't Muslims because Muhammad never taught us to go out killing all the Christians. Islam is more than just claiming to believe in Allah you have to live by everything else too. So I refer to these people as just Muslim by name.

 

If God created us with free will to believe in Him - we can choose to believe or not to believe yeah? So if God is sending us all to heaven regardless of whether we believe or not - I do not see a point in life - why would God give us free will to choose in believing when the outcome is going to be the same? What about someone who really hates the idea of God and worships everything Christianity goes against - are you saying that they are going to heaven along with a religious person? Where is justice in that?

 

Justice is good, but we must not confuse it with revenge. Forgiveness is better than revenge. There are consequences to actions like jail time, or losing the respect of those around you, but everyone deserves a chance to be better, even murderers. I am South African and back home we forgave police and other officials who killed people during apartheid (and I lost some relatives too), and some of these people have turned their lives around, asked for forgiveness and have become good Christians and better people

I am not talking about revenge - I am talking about justice. People should get what they deserve and it certainly does not happen in this life.

 

Jail time is not effective for all people. Some people spend years in jail and they do not feel guilty or repent, they come out of jail again and commit the same crime. And as for respect of some people - these people do not care. Not all people think like us you know, some people do not have respect for anyone either. Yes, I also believe that people can change their lives and become better again. I think its lovely to see when people have been living a life of evil recognise they want something more in life and choose to believe in God - or whatever they want to believe in. However there are people who do not change, they do not seek forgiveness, and simply do not care. How is it just that those people will go to heaven along with someone who is religious and someone who genuinely asked for forgiveness for past sins?

Yes, God does 'judge' people so they can turn to righteousness. I added quotes to this effect in the original post towards the end.

What about people who do not turn to righteousness?

God removed the wicked from the earth in the story of Noah, but where does it say he banished them to hell for eternity?

So he just removed them from earth and sent them to heaven? Does it say in the bible they are in heaven or do you just presume so?

I have a more spiritual approach to judgement day rather than a totally literalist one.

 

What is the soul and its purpose in your understanding? What is heaven? What is sin?

And they ask you (O Muhammad SAW) concerning the Rûh (the Spirit); Say: "The Rûh (the Spirit): is one of the things, the knowledge of which is only with my Lord. And of knowledge, you (mankind) have been given only a little." (19.85)

I know there are some things in Islam about the soul being lifted up by angels etc but I do not know much about the soul, so I can't say things to you about it with no knowledge perhaps someone else will tell you about it from an Islamic perspective. I actually might start a new thread about it.

 

Heaven is a holy place. Heaven is described in a very physical manner in the quran which you said you read. I can't say so and so will go to heaven. My perspective will obviously be different from yours on who goes to heaven but I believe those who follow Islam will go to heaven - and not those who are just Muslim by name , also Allah knows more than me so I don't like to say who He will choose to go to heaven you know? I have no right to judge anyone and say they will go to heaven or hell. However I do believe that Allah is Just and that He created heaven and hell for a reason. I believe that if you are sinful then you go away from the straight path that Allah has prescribed you. I also believe that Allah is the Most Forgiving and I believe that is so important because as human beings we can't understand His forgiveness and how great it is. However Allah is not just a Forgiver alone, He is Just and and He is a Judge who knows who deserves what. As human beings we cant say what is in the hearts of another person. It is not unfair that some people will go to hell because we have been born with free will, with a brain to gain knowledge and we can decide to believe or not to believe. Allah sent a Messenger to all places.

I do not know if you believe in original sin but most Christians do and so how is that justice if God loves us all. It seems God has double standards here. He gives us the sins of the past yet He loves us all and we are all going to heaven here.

 

There is no compulsion in religion but I believe what we do in this life will have a result and that not everyones result will be the same.

 

There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower. (2.256)

Thanks again for the reply, it can be hard to explain what we believe in words.

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Islam is more than just claiming to believe in Allah you have to live by everything else too. So I refer to these people as just Muslim by name.

 

As-salamu 'aleikum

 

Murdering people doesn't take one out of the fold of Islam. The only thing that takes one out of the fold of Islam is disbelief. So we can't call Muslims who murder as disbelievers. We can call them wicked transgressors, wrongdoers, transgressors etc. there are a lot of terms like these used in the Qur'an. God has said that He forgives everything except Shirk, even murder is forgiven though you may punished in Hell before you are purified. Note, I am condoning murder or trying to portray it as light sin. On the contrary, it is a major sin but it isn't a sin which makes you a disbeliever. Granted people who murder aren't following Islamic techings but it doesn't make them disbelievers or hypocrites who just claim to be Muslims.

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Walaikum salaam

Ok thanks for clarifying.

It probably wasn't a good example but I was trying to say that there are people who claim to be muslim but they dont follow the quran even though they say they believe in Allah,,

Edited by Lost_In_Paradise

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Hi samantha thanks for replying.

If this place was just a garbage dump or a place of child sacrifice my point is why does it say its for the nations who forget God because how do human beings know whats in the hearts of another human being. If it says in the bible the nations who forget God should go there then who is the decider of who goes to this place sheol or geheena? I hope you understand what I mean its hard to explain it in words.

If murder is wrong then what is the punishment? You say it causes pain if they do this sin but let's be honest here there are some people in this world who do not feel guilt or pain if they committed such acts - so what is their punishment for taking the life of another person. If we do not obey Gods commands out of love for him u say there is a problem - so what exactly is this problem? And what happens to people who dont care or dont believe in God. Is God going to treat them the same as a pious person and why? Are there parts in the bible which give you the impression that God treats a religious and evil person the same?

 

I suppose I'll take the liberty of answering this question since I'm a Unitarian Christian. Sheol is the Hebrew analog of Hades; it's more or less the realm of the dead. It doesn't really matter what you did in life, you go there where your soul awaits resurrection. When the resurrection occurs, that is when judgment before God happens, according to the so-called "soul sleep" doctrine. Sheol is just a repository of human souls, if you want to call it that. The Earth is filled with good and bad people, and Sheol is sort of like an extension of the Earth, though there is no consciousness in Sheol, if King Solomon's words are to be believed in the book of Ecclesiastes.

 

When Jesus spoke of Gehenna fire, he was using the valley as an analogy for what would happen to the unrepentant wicked in God's eyes. Wicked people aren't literally thrown in that valley. It's kind of like when people talk about the Battle at Armageddon; if you go to Armageddon in israel today, I think it's just the site of the ruins of an ancient city-state. Analogies fill the Bible, or any literary work in general, as a way to form a more concrete image that the reader/listener can understand.

 

If you were to believe what the book of Malachi says about what will happen to the wicked and then attach that with Jesus' warnings of Gehenna fire, Solomon's description of Sheol, the resurrection, and John's Revelation, then you'd come to the conclusion that after God's judgment on the person after resurrection, the unrepentant sinner would be cast into a "Lake of Fire" to be "burned up" to become "ashes under the soles" of the feet of the righteous. In other words, the wicked would be destroyed, and the "memory of them forgotten."

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If you were to believe what the book of Malachi says about what will happen to the wicked and then attach that with Jesus' warnings of Gehenna fire, Solomon's description of Sheol, the resurrection, and John's Revelation, then you'd come to the conclusion that after God's judgment on the person after resurrection, the unrepentant sinner would be cast into a "Lake of Fire" to be "burned up" to become "ashes under the soles" of the feet of the righteous. In other words, the wicked would be destroyed, and the "memory of them forgotten."

Do unitarians believe this?

 

and thanks for explaining..but it doesn't really answer all my questions.

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Do unitarians believe this?

 

and thanks for explaining..but it doesn't really answer all my questions.

What I just described is called Annihilationism, which is a minority opinion. Annihilation is related to the concept of the mortal soul, which states that human souls can die unless God imbues them with immortality. In this scenario, the wicked are destroyed and removed from existence, and everything about them is forgotten. Evil is forever removed and only righteousness remains.

 

There is also the concept of Universal Salvation, which states that everyone will be saved (though maybe not necessarily at the same time). Unitarians are more prone to believe in universal salvation than annihilationism. In this scenario, the wicked may or may not spend some time in a Purgatory-like state to become "cleansed" and to pay for the prices for their evil deeds on Earth, but it would be in a finite amount of time. After they endure all that, they can be reconciled unto God, due to his love and mercy. So eventually, everyone would be saved, though some may endure a finite amount of punishment. Those who ascribe to this doctrine usually believe in the immortality of the soul.

Edited by Wanderer

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hell is true whether u like it or not it will be home to the diselivers

 

 

oh Allah svae us from u hell fire and grant us your jannah :sl:

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What I just described is called Annihilationism, which is a minority opinion. Annihilation is related to the concept of the mortal soul, which states that human souls can die unless God imbues them with immortality. In this scenario, the wicked are destroyed and removed from existence, and everything about them is forgotten. Evil is forever removed and only righteousness remains.

 

There is also the concept of Universal Salvation, which states that everyone will be saved (though maybe not necessarily at the same time). Unitarians are more prone to believe in universal salvation than annihilationism. In this scenario, the wicked may or may not spend some time in a Purgatory-like state to become "cleansed" and to pay for the prices for their evil deeds on Earth, but it would be in a finite amount of time. After they endure all that, they can be reconciled unto God, due to his love and mercy. So eventually, everyone would be saved, though some may endure a finite amount of punishment. Those who ascribe to this doctrine usually believe in the immortality of the soul.

So just to clarify using an example:

A rapist may or may not spend time in Purgatory where he/she would be cleansed. And if they do spend time in Purgatory then its a limited time and they will eventually be sent to heaven.

 

Is this correct ?

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So just to clarify using an example:

A rapist may or may not spend time in Purgatory where he/she would be cleansed. And if they do spend time in Purgatory then its a limited time and they will eventually be sent to heaven.

 

Is this correct ?

If a person were to be "cleansed" by fire or other means, then that means that they would have attained a true, genuine repentance (otherwise they're still not "cleansed"). It would take as long as it takes, even if it's a trillion years or more. Such a length of time would essentially be the same as "eternity" for humans that live for only an average of 80 years or so. Even if humans lived for thousands of years, it still would seem like an eternity since the soul involved in such a situation has no real idea when it will end. Perhaps some would repent more quickly than others.

 

So goes the doctrine.

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It would take as long as it takes

So then it is possible that a person will never go to heaven and that they will stay there forever ?

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So then it is possible that a person will never go to heaven and that they will stay there forever ?

If the person would never repent, then that would be possible. Those that adhere to (eventual) Universal Salvation believe that, realistically, everyone would eventually repent in a finite amount of time. No one's will is stronger than God's will, so then a person would eventually be forced to relent in his or her rebellion.

 

Annihilationists say that since God already knows the outcome, those that would never repent would simply be destroyed, and every last reminder of their existence would be destroyed as well.

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