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Mrs. J

Why Not Have Female Imams?

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Assalamualaikum Waramatullahi Wabarakatu everyone!

 

A few months ago, a male Muslim member of this site seemed utterly disgusted when I mentioned that there are women preachers in Christianity. I am still struck by this so I thought I would share my thoughts on female preachers/Imams with you and I’d like to hear your opinions as well.

 

 

For more than a decade, an American woman named Amina Wadud has ruffled a few feathers - she is a scholar, a female Imam and has led mixed prayers in the United States, Great Britain and South Africa. But Wadud is not the only one; the Hui people of China have had women Imams leading prayers in women-only Masjids as early as 1820. Several other women in Spain, North America and South Africa lead prayers and give sermons to mixed congregations. (See more: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Women_as_imams"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Women_as_imams[/url] )

 

I’m surprised that there are so few female Imams to speak of in 2011 and that this issue is still being debated. Why not have female Imams? After all, God used women as prophets! There are seven women in the Jewish Bible/Old Testament who are recognised as prophets in Judaism and Christianity, one more in the Gospel of Luke (2:36-38) and several female disciples and apostles in the rest of the New Testament. Miriam, the sister of Aaron (not the mother of Isa), is named as a prophetess in the Bible (Exodus 15:20), as is Deborah (Judges 4:1 – 5:31), who was not only a prophetess and judge but also ruled over the israelites and lead an army! (Click (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgospelassemblyfree(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/facts/women.htm"]here [/url]and (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetjewishvirtuallibrary(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/jsource/Judaism/The_List_of_Prophets.html"]here [/url]for the full list of women prophets.) I did a Google search to see if Islam recognises any female prophets and some of the responses I found were, “We don’t know why Allah does not mention female prophets,†and, “Women have never been prophets! This is a lie in the Bible!†and also, “God chooses men to be prophets because women are more emotional.†I hardly see any reason why the israelites – a patriarchal society – would exalt women as prophets and leaders unless God exalted these women. The truth is that God did used women as prophets and leaders, and still uses us to spread His Word and do His work. God promised, “I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy...Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days.†(Joel 2:28-29 NIV) I feel incredibly proud as a Christian woman that God has used righteous women as prophets and leaders, and that in my community I have the right to minister to my brethern or even become a Bishop.

 

The most common reason I have heard explaining why women cannot be Imams has to do with a woman’s sexuality, “The men will be distracted by her body and her voice.†Really?!!?!!? Isn’t a woman much more than curves and a voice? And, shouldn’t men control themselves? No one complains that the handsome male Imam with the broad shoulders and deep, smooth voice will distract the women! It seems as if the burden of keeping society moral rest mostly upon the shoulders of women who have to cover more than men do and pray behind men.... I have been to churches where women have ministered to a mixed congregation with their hair uncovered, wearing tight pants, and I can assure you that in none of those instances were the men whistling, or making comments about her booty, or hitting on her after the service. The men were as attentive as they were when a male preacher ministered to the congregation – there was no orgy. So, if Christians can do it, why can’t Muslims, especially since ‘Ye are the best community that hath been raised up for mankind. Ye enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency; and ye believe in Allah. And if the People of the Scripture (Christians and Jews) had believed it had been better for them. Some of them are believers; but most of them are evil-livers’ [Quran 3:110 Pickthall]?

 

According to some, a woman’s single testimony is not acceptable or equal to one man's in Islam in certain cases. I believe that what is really being implied by this is that women are untrustworthy, or have poor judgment or memory, or are too emotional, or have highly active imaginations - this is classic misogynism. So yes, a woman cannot be an Imam if (according to some) her testimony is not acceptable in certain cases concerning things of this world, so who is she to minister to the congregation about the things of God or lead prayers? She might forget, or be swayed by her emotions.

 

Why not have female Imams, people? God even used Balaam’s donkey to get his message across (Numbers 22:28), and aren’t women - who are created in God’s likeness - more valuable, more intelligent, more spiritual than donkeys?

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PropellerAds

I haven't looked into this topic and haven't read the specific texts regarding this issue but what I do know is that it is NOT allowed.

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I think I remember reading that Aisha led other women in prayer and she was standing among them, however I can't find it so I am probably wrong.

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No soul has authority over another. Guidance and straying is a matter between God and you.

 

 

aakwrAllahwbHu

 

 

Hey there, sister samantha-g:

 

 

The men were as attentive as they were when a male preacher ministered to the congregation..

 

How do you know that?

 

My guess is that, ordinarily, men would be even more attentive to those female preachers. But for reasons not quite the ones you seem to want to believe.

 

 

 

Alhamdu lillahi Rabbil aalameen.

 

 

 

la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Al-‘Atheemu Al-Haleemu, la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Rabbul ‘arshil-‘atheemi,

la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Rabbus-samaawaati wa Rabbul-ardhi wa Rabbul-‘arshil-kareemi

there is no god except Allah, the All-Mighty, the Forbearing; there is no god except Allah, the Lord of the Mighty Throne;

there is no god except Allah, Lord of the heavens, Lord of the earth and Lord of the noble Throne.

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Hello Br. AsadullaHamza,

 

Their conduct was as orderly as usual. There are some churches which only have female preachers though men regularly attend. Some prominent female preachers in the US are Joyce Meyers and Paula White, and they have their own ministries and their sermons are televised too.

 

Good to see you again.

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Assalamualaikum Waramatullahi Wabarakatu everyone!

 

wa alaikum

 

For more than a decade, an American woman named Amina Wadud has ruffled a few feathers - she is a scholar, a female Imam and has led mixed prayers in the United States, Great Britain and South Africa. But Wadud is not the only one; the Hui people of China have had women Imams leading prayers in women-only Masjids as early as 1820. Several other women in Spain, North America and South Africa lead prayers and give sermons to mixed congregations. (See more: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Women_as_imams"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Women_as_imams[/url] )

 

Well, a woman leading a congregation consisting only of women is nothing radical. The problem is when it comes to a mixed congregation.

 

I’m surprised that there are so few female Imams to speak of in 2011 and that this issue is still being debated. Why not have female Imams? After all, God used women as prophets! There are seven women in the Jewish Bible/Old Testament who are recognised as prophets in Judaism and Christianity, one more in the Gospel of Luke (2:36-38) and several female disciples and apostles in the rest of the New Testament. Miriam, the sister of Aaron (not the mother of Isa), is named as a prophetess in the Bible (Exodus 15:20), as is Deborah (Judges 4:1 – 5:31), who was not only a prophetess and judge but also ruled over the israelites and lead an army! (Click (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgospelassemblyfree(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/facts/women.htm"]here [/url]and (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetjewishvirtuallibrary(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/jsource/Judaism/The_List_of_Prophets.html"]here [/url]for the full list of women prophets.) I did a Google search to see if Islam recognises any female prophets and some of the responses I found were, “We don’t know why Allah does not mention female prophets,” and, “Women have never been prophets! This is a lie in the Bible!” and also, “God chooses men to be prophets because women are more emotional.” I hardly see any reason why the israelites – a patriarchal society – would exalt women as prophets and leaders unless God exalted these women. The truth is that God did used women as prophets and leaders, and still uses us to spread His Word and do His work. God promised, “I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy...Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days.” (Joel 2:28-29 NIV) I feel incredibly proud as a Christian woman that God has used righteous women as prophets and leaders, and that in my community I have the right to minister to my brethern or even become a Bishop.

 

First of all, I want you to realise one thing. We are Muslims. So when you ask why not have female Imams because, after all, God used women as Prophets and then you refer to the Bible as your authority, it means nothing to Muslims. Certain books of the New Testament forbid women from speaking in churches and say that they should quiet and submissive to men. Your answer famous answer is probably, "I don't consider them Scripture". Well, the Bible is not consider Scipture by Muslims. Quoting a passage that says that God will make people's sons and daughters prophecy is not accepted by Mulims because Muhammad, peace and blessings of God be upon him, is the Seal of Prophets. I hope you don't consider yourself a Prophetess.

 

As for the idea of there being women Prophets, what we know that is that God only sent men as Messengers. Messengers such as Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Elijah, Jonah and Noah, peace be upon them all, who all had to preach publicly. The idea of there being women as Prophets is open to debate. However, there is no evidence that there ever was a Prophet based on Islamic evidence. But it doesn't really matter. Look in the Bible and tell me if you see women serving as priests. For example, the priests according to the Bible were only males. There were no women as priests. In Islam, certain women are also considered great authorities. For example, Aisha, may God be pleased with her, was considered a great authority by the close male Companions, may God be pleased with them all, and she is still considered one of the greatest being the second person to have transmitted the most Hadiths. A lot of men transmitted hadiths from her because she was an authority. Yet she didn't lead any prayer. If you can't fathom the idea that only male Imams lead mixed congregations in Islam, then maybe you can understand the concept that only males served as Kohens (Jewish priests). There is no example of women leading men in worship.

 

The most common reason I have heard explaining why women cannot be Imams has to do with a woman’s sexuality, “The men will be distracted by her body and her voice.” Really?!!?!!? Isn’t a woman much more than curves and a voice? And, shouldn’t men control themselves? No one complains that the handsome male Imam with the broad shoulders and deep, smooth voice will distract the women! It seems as if the burden of keeping society moral rest mostly upon the shoulders of women who have to cover more than men do and pray behind men.... I have been to churches where women have ministered to a mixed congregation with their hair uncovered, wearing tight pants, and I can assure you that in none of those instances were the men whistling, or making comments about her booty, or hitting on her after the service. The men were as attentive as they were when a male preacher ministered to the congregation – there was no orgy. So, if Christians can do it, why can’t Muslims, especially since ‘Ye are the best community that hath been raised up for mankind. Ye enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency; and ye believe in Allah. And if the People of the Scripture (Christians and Jews) had believed it had been better for them. Some of them are believers; but most of them are evil-livers’ [Quran 3:110 Pickthall]?

 

The real reason is not due to the woman's sexuality. A woman is definately a lot more than curves and a voice, a woman is man's companion, mate, pair. And yes, men should control themselves. However, this still doesn't mean that women should lead prayers. In the Prophet's, peace and blessings of God be upon him, time, the women prayed in congregation behind the men because that is what God instituted. Men are not allowed to look at women nor are women allowed to look at men - irrespective of the fact whether the person is attractive or not. A woman can't lead a congregation even if she looked unattractive to all the men and even if she had a deeper voice than most men.

 

Men and women have different laws. Read the Old Testament and you'll understand that. Men and women are different. Women menstruate. Women are not allowed to pray or fast when they are menstruating because they are religiously impure at that time. Imagine the whole congregation knowing when you are on your menses or not. Not exactly an ideal situation, quite to the contrary. Some women came to Prophet, peace and blessings of God be upon him, complaining to him that the men were reaping all the good deeds by spending in charity and doing Jihad. The Prophet, peace and blessings of God be upon him, told them that they shouldn't wish for things that are inherently impossible. He told that them that a woman who prays, fasts and obeys her husband receives the same as the person who spends in charity and fights. Women shouldn't wish for the things that men have/do and vice versa. In some areas men have received an advantage and in some women. For example, giving birth is equivalent to Jihad and a mother is more deserving of her child's love than the father. Women are inherently deficient in certain aspects of religion, i.e. can't pray and fast while on menses, just as men are, i.e. can't give birth and be mothers.

 

According to some, a woman’s single testimony is not acceptable or equal to one man's in Islam in certain cases. I believe that what is really being implied by this is that women are untrustworthy, or have poor judgment or memory, or are too emotional, or have highly active imaginations - this is classic misogynism. So yes, a woman cannot be an Imam if (according to some) her testimony is not acceptable in certain cases concerning things of this world, so who is she to minister to the congregation about the things of God or lead prayers? She might forget, or be swayed by her emotions.

 

Not it is not classic mysogynism. You are painting a pretty dark picture. In legal contracts that involve business transactions, there needs to be two women because women are not really familiar with all of that stuff. It doesn't have anything to with trustworthiness, or memory per se. Most women in the past and even now live at home, and aren't involved in monetary transactions etc. They are not familiar with that stuff so they are prone to err. Obviously, you don't want men who are not familiar with business transactions, either. If what you say is true, then nobody would ever accepted Aisha's narrations, or Um Salama's, may God be pleased with them . Read the Torah and you should understand. Men only served as kohanim, women didn't. Same applies here. Jihad is obligatory for men but it isn't for women etc. Men and women have different roles, appreciate it.

 

Why not have female Imams, people? God even used Balaam’s donkey to get his message across (Numbers 22:28), and aren’t women - who are created in God’s likeness - more valuable, more intelligent, more spiritual than donkeys?

 

Honestly, I laughed because I found this funny (positively though for a change).

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Hi Younes,

 

I never said that a woman's testimony is never acceptable. I spent some time to research before I posted this to find out under what circumstances a woman's solitary testimony is not acceptable. Forgetfulness in women seems to be more prominent than forgetfulness in men in the articles I read online on Islamic sites. Men and women do have different roles, but women get into business too and are more educated now, so shouldn't the solitary testimony of those who are knowledgeable suffice? I think its somewhat antiquated.

 

You are painting a pretty dark picture. In legal contracts that involve business transactions, there needs to be two women because women are not really familiar with all of that stuff. It doesn't have anything to with trustworthiness, or memory per se. Most women in the past and even now live at home, and aren't involved in monetary transactions etc. They are not familiar with that stuff so they are prone to err.

 

I had this in mind when I added judgment in the list of possible reasons why a woman's testimony is not acceptable at times. In many cultures and in Muslim countries, women go to the market to buy groceries or are even merchants at markets. I'm sure we've managed to figure out how to count and bargain and make deals by now. Was Khadeeja not a merchant also?

 

Paul's opinion is his own, and is it not interesting that the author writes in that very passage, "Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission as the Law says," (1 Corinthians 14:34 NIV) yet in other matters the Law is fulfilled and done away with? This is just patriarchy. The Epistles to the Romans 16:1 mentions a deaconess named Phoebe and since there were female apostles and disciples in the early church, it is possible that they lead prayers, particularly while teaching the Lord's Prayer to new converts. Also, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galations 4:28 NIV)

 

Doesn't Islam claim to recognise all the prophets who came before Muhammad pbuh? Why discriminate against the women? I know what the OT says, and I know who can and cannot be a priest according to the law. The Law fits right in the time and place it was delivered, but humanity and our perception of women has progressed since. I know of female rabbis but I don't know if any of them have led prayers.

Honestly, I laughed because I found this funny (positively though for a change).

 

Good to know.

 

Peace.

Edited by samantha-g

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I edited my previous post because it contained some grammar errors that made it pretty incoherent at times.

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No soul has authority over another. Guidance and straying is a matter between God and you.

 

 

 

aakwrAllahwbHu

 

 

 

Their conduct was as orderly as usual. There are some churches which only have female preachers though men regularly attend. Some prominent female preachers in the US are Joyce Meyers and Paula White, and they have their own ministries and their sermons are televised too.

 

You can replace those two with Jenna Jameson (not that they are not good looking themselves) and I am sure the conduct will be orderly still. You catch the drift.

 

And just to make sure, what do you have in mind when you talk of an Imam?

 

 

Great to be again seen by you. :sl:

 

 

Alhamdu lillahi Rabbil aalameen.

 

 

 

la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Al-‘Atheemu Al-Haleemu, la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Rabbul ‘arshil-‘atheemi,

la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Rabbus-samaawaati wa Rabbul-ardhi wa Rabbul-‘arshil-kareemi

there is no god except Allah, the All-Mighty, the Forbearing; there is no god except Allah, the Lord of the Mighty Throne;

there is no god except Allah, Lord of the heavens, Lord of the earth and Lord of the noble Throne.

Edited by AsadullahHamza

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You can replace those two with Jenna Jameson (not that they are not good looking themselves) and I am sure the conduct will be orderly still. You catch the drift.

 

And just to make sure, what do you have in mind when you talk of an Imam?

 

:sl: You seem to have little faith in man's ability to resist a beautiful woman. Is beauty our curse? I discuss the Bible and 'minister' to some of my male friends and they seem totally engrossed in what I say (and not my glossed lips) and absorb it.

 

I have in mind a highly knowledgeable individual, who is kind and approachable and leads the community in worship, righteous conduct and the spiritual quest. This is not a job for just anyone - one has to be "called" into such service. Can't a woman be "called"?

 

Peace

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Hi Younes,

 

I never said that a woman's testimony is never acceptable. I spent some time to research before I posted this to find out under what circumstances a woman's solitary testimony is not acceptable. Forgetfulness in women seems to be more prominent than forgetfulness in men in the articles I read online on Islamic sites. Men and women do have different roles, but women get into business too and are more educated now, so shouldn't the solitary testimony of those who are knowledgeable suffice? I think its somewhat antiquated.

 

No, I don't think the law should be changed because that is what God has instituted. For example, Muslim women can earn income like their husbands, however, it is not a religious obligation for them to spend on their husband. Providing is the responsability of the man although the woman could very well provide. It's a Divine institution. Women could go war, however, it isn't obligatory on them. Fighting is the obligation of the man. It is preferrable for men to use men as witnesses when they make contracts to avoid unnecessary intermixing etc.

 

Paul's opinion is his own, and is it not interesting that the author writes in that very passage, "Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission as the Law says," (1 Corinthians 14-15 NIV) yet in other matters the Law is fulfilled and done away with? This is just patriarchy. The Epistles to the Romans 16:1 mentions a deaconess named Phoebe and since there were female apostles and disciples in the early church, it is possible that they lead prayers, particularly while teaching the Lord's Prayer to new converts. Also, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galations 4:28 NIV)

 

I don't really care whether the author contradicts himself, whether it is consistent. All I know is that it is there and it is applied by Christians, and I used it as an example to which you could relate.

 

Doesn't Islam claim to recognise all the prophets who came before Muhammad pbuh? Why discriminate against the women? I know what the OT says, and I know who can and cannot be a priest according to the law. The Law fits right in the time and place it was delivered, but humanity and our perception of women has progressed since. I know of female rabbis but I don't know if any of them have lead prayers.

 

Yes, Islam recognises all the Prophets, peace be upon them, who came before Muhammad, peace and blessings of God be upon him. But who those Prophets excactly were is another question. I don't deny the possibility that there were female Prophets. The Jews say that Miriam was a Prophetess. There is no direct evidence in Islamic sources which affirms this or denies it, so we don't reject it nor do we affirm it. But like I said, even Miriam is not said to have lead any worship with a mixed congregation or male only in the Bible. I read once that the Jews say that when children of israel escaped Pharaoh and he was drowned, Moses, peace be upon him, sang a song to the male israelites and Miriam to the women.There is no evidence of women leading prayers in the OT.

 

There are female scholars in Islam, the equivalent of a Rabbi. Aisha, may God be pleased her, was one but she didn't lead prayers. Islam doesn't changed with how the perception of men changes. Our (not literally though) perception of a lot of things has changed: premarital dating, same-sex marriages, usury etc. has changed a lot, it doesn't mean that we adopt them and disregard God's Law. You think that not having a female Imam is discrimating while it doesn't necessarily have to been in that way. The problem here is the idea of progression. If it is in conflict with God's Law, it is actually regression - at least from a Islamic point of view. I understand your point of view, though. You also have to understand that just because women can't lead mixed congregations that it isn't necessarily discrimination. Do you think that the Torah was discriminating? If you think that Islam is necessarily discriminatory in this aspect, then the Torah by default is discriminatory. You can't fall back on the arguement, "Well, it's ancient times so it was good then but we have progressed". The Torah also says that the priesthood is eternal - repeatedly numerous times - it is the most repeated commandment that is told be everlasting.

 

The fact is from an Islamic perspective that it is not allowed. I also bet that most women don't want to be Imams leading male congregations. Why should they? To prove a point?

 

Peace.

 

And also upon

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No soul has authority over another. Guidance and straying is a matter between God and you.

 

 

 

aakwrAllahwbHu

 

 

 

You seem to have little faith in man's ability to resist a beautiful woman.

 

Not at all. Such an ability is perfectly developed in dead men. :sl:

 

Apart from the dead ones, the only ones who can resist women sufficiently would probably be saints, lovers(?) and men with other interests.

 

But really, it comes down to what you mean by "resist". If by resisting you mean not making physical approaches, then I am sure there are a number of factors that might make men resist even the most alluring women. However, there's a lot that goes on in the mind, and it would take a really fine man to desist mentally.

 

 

Is beauty our curse?

 

Is fire mankind's curse?

 

 

I discuss the Bible and 'minister' to some of my male friends and they seem totally engrossed in what I say (and not my glossed lips) and absorb it.

 

You have probably heard the famous line, "Almost all the world plays the actor."

 

Whether we are playing out our parts or pretending to be what we are not, we are actors. I remember reading somewhere that the word hypocrite originally applied to those who acted on stage: performers, play-actors.

 

I have to ask you this: Would you mind even if your friends are engrossed over your glossed lips?

 

 

I have in mind a highly knowledgeable individual, who is kind and approachable and leads the community in worship, righteous conduct and the spiritual quest. This is not a job for just anyone - one has to be "called" into such service. Can't a woman be "called"?

 

Even if we were to live in an ideal society, I would say that the realities of life would make it nigh impossible for a woman to play out even the roles you have listed.

 

 

Take care. :sl:

 

 

Alhamdu lillahi Rabbil aalameen.

 

 

 

la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Al-‘Atheemu Al-Haleemu, la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Rabbul ‘arshil-‘atheemi,

la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Rabbus-samaawaati wa Rabbul-ardhi wa Rabbul-‘arshil-kareemi

there is no god except Allah, the All-Mighty, the Forbearing; there is no god except Allah, the Lord of the Mighty Throne;

there is no god except Allah, Lord of the heavens, Lord of the earth and Lord of the noble Throne.

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I think I remember reading that Aisha led other women in prayer and she was standing among them, however I can't find it so I am probably wrong.

 

The hadith of `A’ishah and Umm Salamah (may Allah be pleased with them). `Abdur-Raziq (5086), Ad-Daraqutni (1/404) and Al-Bayhaqi (3/131) reported from the narration of Abu Hazim Maysarah ibn Habib from Ra’itah Al-Hanafiyyah from `A’ishah that she led women in Prayer and stood among them in an obligatory Prayer. Moreover, Ibn Abi Shaybah (2/89) reported from the chain of narrators of Ibn Abi Layla from `Ata’ that `A’ishah used to say the Adhan, the Iqamah, and lead women in Prayer while standing among them in the same row. Al-Hakim also reported the same hadith from the chain of narators of Layth Ibn Abi Sulaim from `Ata’, and the wording of the hadith mentioned here is Al-Hakim’s.

 

Furthermore, Ash-Shafi`i (315), Ibn Abi Shaybah (88/2) and `Abdur-Raziq (5082) reported from two chains of narrators that report the narration of `Ammar Ad-Dahni in which he stated that a woman from his tribe named Hujayrah narrated that Umm Salamh used to lead women in Prayer while standing among them in the same row.

 

The wording of `Abdur-Raziq for the same hadith is as follows: “Umm Salamah led us (women) in the `Asr Prayer and stood among us (in the same row).â€

 

In addition, Al-Hafiz said in Ad-Dirayah (1/169), “Muhammad ibn Al-Husain reported from the narration of Ibrahim An-Nakh`i that `A’ishah used to lead women in Prayer during the month of Ramadan while standing among them in the same row.

 

Further, `Abdur-Raziq reported (5083) from the narration of Ibrahim ibn Muhammad from Dawud ibn Al-Husain from `Ikrimah from Ibn `Abbas that the latter said, “A woman can lead women in Prayer while standing between them.â€

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Uhh, female prophets? Maybe in Christianity. But we're not Christians.

 

Samantha, you've to first understand that men and women are assigned different rights and responsibilities in Islam. The responsibility of leading falls to men. If there is no man, then a woman can lead women.

 

"Oh, but that's so unfair! How old-fashioned!"

 

Most people leap to this conclusion without considering the bigger picture, without considering all of the allowances given to women that are not given to men. And most people, when they say that leadership should be given to women, are saying that the caretaker role that a mother or wife has is insignificant and unimportant. How offensive to mothers and wives.

 

And most people, when they claim that the female body or voice is no more sexually enticing than the male body (to the opposite sex), are being ignorant of biology and society.

 

The above is not even relevant. Women are not imams of men because that is not their role as women. They can, however, lead a female gathering. It's as simple as that.

 

P.S: When speaking to a Muslim audience, please do not say "Why not do X, Muslims? God did X in the Bible". That is no more convincing to you than me telling you to stop doing something because the Qur'an says so.

 

Salam.

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The hadith of `A’ishah and Umm Salamah (may Allah be pleased with them). `Abdur-Raziq (5086), Ad-Daraqutni (1/404) and Al-Bayhaqi (3/131) reported from the narration of Abu Hazim Maysarah ibn Habib from Ra’itah Al-Hanafiyyah from `A’ishah that she led women in Prayer and stood among them in an obligatory Prayer. Moreover, Ibn Abi Shaybah (2/89) reported from the chain of narrators of Ibn Abi Layla from `Ata’ that `A’ishah used to say the Adhan, the Iqamah, and lead women in Prayer while standing among them in the same row. Al-Hakim also reported the same hadith from the chain of narators of Layth Ibn Abi Sulaim from `Ata’, and the wording of the hadith mentioned here is Al-Hakim’s.

 

Furthermore, Ash-Shafi`i (315), Ibn Abi Shaybah (88/2) and `Abdur-Raziq (5082) reported from two chains of narrators that report the narration of `Ammar Ad-Dahni in which he stated that a woman from his tribe named Hujayrah narrated that Umm Salamh used to lead women in Prayer while standing among them in the same row.

 

The wording of `Abdur-Raziq for the same hadith is as follows: “Umm Salamah led us (women) in the `Asr Prayer and stood among us (in the same row).”

 

In addition, Al-Hafiz said in Ad-Dirayah (1/169), “Muhammad ibn Al-Husain reported from the narration of Ibrahim An-Nakh`i that `A’ishah used to lead women in Prayer during the month of Ramadan while standing among them in the same row.

 

Further, `Abdur-Raziq reported (5083) from the narration of Ibrahim ibn Muhammad from Dawud ibn Al-Husain from `Ikrimah from Ibn `Abbas that the latter said, “A woman can lead women in Prayer while standing between them.”

Aw thank you fajr :sl:

 

Also I agree with Redeem about the voice thing, I read before that people are more attracted to a womans voice(sorry don't have the source but I am sure its out there)...

And a woman can't pray during menstruation, wouldn't that be awkward that everyone would know ...just saying..

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Samantha....what i figured out it ...by studying psychology and Islam...What Allah said in Qu'ran, whatever barriers Allah set has a reason. There are many things which human cannot understand, those things has a long term effect.

 

IF you try to explain the reason, it may seem confusing by human. Allah understands them, that is Godly power. The extent of complexity is so hard that human brain cannot understand things. By what we should understand is 'Godly power' . We human are nothing but just the created ones. We cannot create anything without the things already made in the worlld or by nature.

 

The most important part of Islam i feel is you have to believe the day of judgment and the life after death (hell or heaven). You know time passes in zip ....i am 23 years i feel yesterday i was 16 years old. If you ask an old men/women who is 70 years old. He would say that his life of sweet 16 was seem so close that it seems that it wasnt very long.

 

As far as reward is concerned, Dr. Zakir Naik said, women will be rewarded something which is not seen/heard/felt before. Therefore something new and innovative. You should be very happy about it. Enjoyment is something which is triggered, it could by anything such as when u get a new expensive cell phone, car, money. Allah says that female will 'enjoy' ...thats the main point. In heaven Allah reconfigure your taste, you can enjoy same thing forever and you wont be bored.

 

Another point is noted not only by you but by many female even myself. I just wish to inform that I am not gender racist, infact my family has women who was world famous for women rights in bangladesh, south asia, and one of the famous lady in the world, Begum Sakhawat Rokeya, you can google it.

 

The point i would like to note is you or many women can arguably say that why women should cover themself. Why not just men cannot control their lust. It is our (men) problem, why does u have to take the burden....

 

First of all men even shouldn't look at you at bad glance. This applies to both gender. Regarding, what i think is, most males are very much attracted towards girls. Covering are needed probably because so that men doesn't have any room for awakening lust, a safeguard. If lust occurs then it will be problematic forever no matter how tough u make the law (laws for rape) or will just make a relationship before marriage.

 

This covering is also a test of yours that how long can u stay widout being attracted by guys. Because girls are normally attention seekers. They like to be admired by their beauty. This is what i have seen from my experience of 7 gfs.

 

And yes even the voice of women do make many men horny, its like it differs from people to people what triggers you to become horny. You should even know that even the presence of women can also awake lust. There are so many problem of men, you cannot call us lucky rather you can say unlucky because so many thing in this world will make us do sin.

 

The whole point over is that the world is nothing, u enjoy things whatever u r set to enjoy. U know that is people have different taste. I love Coke but my sister likes Miranda/Fanta. In the world u r a slave of Allah and will be rewarded after the day of judgment. We, as men , can be leaders, do business, and many things...that doesnt make us any good or superior because with that responsibility we are more accountable to God then females. And no of us make use of it totally for what Allah said. So as men, we should be ready for making our backside red.

 

The best investment in this world is gather as much as good deed and lessen the sin.

 

I MEAN AN EXPERT OR IslamIC SCHOLAR RATHER I HAVE MANY PROBLEM WITH MYSELF. I AM JUST EXPRESSING WHAT I HAVE SEEN, FELT.

 

i was not a good guy myself. 4-5 years ago i pierced my ear, tongue, lips. I have had many gfs. I mix with people who are playboys. I often take alchohal/beer, drugs such as marijuana. And i am still a chain smoker (though hardworking to leave it). I use to mess around people all the time, had gang, been stabbed, shot. Did the same thing to others. But things have changed and i am pushing hard to change. And in many aspect i am successful. Its just only my believe of Allah or fear of Allah that i havent killed anyone, otherwise that wasn't a problem for me.

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As far as reward is concerned, Dr. Zakir Naik said, women will be rewarded something which is not seen/heard/felt before. Therefore something new and innovative. You should be very happy about it. Enjoyment is something which is triggered, it could by anything such as when u get a new expensive cell phone, car, money. Allah says that female will 'enjoy' ...thats the main point. In heaven Allah reconfigure your taste, you can enjoy same thing forever and you wont be bored.

I wonder which one of us will enjoy the fire of Hell. You honestly do not know who you sin against. Sleep tight. Is something not working on me? Hm.it only takes for me to listen to Qur'an.

 

What hath made thee careless concerning thy Lord, the Bountiful [using large font size is not allowed][5:82].

 

But you should know that you are incurring the wrath of the Compeller (al-Jabbaar) and that you are committing one of the gravest acts of disobedience against Allaah after shirk [?].

Edited by Orthodox

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Why Not Have Female Imams?

 

Muslims don't have female Imams because the Prophet (saws) never allowed a woman to lead people in prayer. It is not in the Sunnah and neither is it taught in the Qur'an. Whosoever goes against the Qur'an and Sunnah walks in the footsteps of Satan and will end up in Hell.

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Orthodox...can u again clarify what u r saying...........I DONT UNDERSTAND WHAT UR SAYING ........

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Orthodox wrote to me :-

 

''BOO So scary "jinnnnnn"

LOL ''

 

 

what do u mean by this ??? y find Jinn, angel funny ??? what sort of joke is this ? If you have problem with me then let me know. There is no point leaving of giving unnecessary comments.

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nd go crack your flat jokes somewhere else...

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I have to ask you this: Would you mind even if your friends are engrossed over your glossed lips?

 

I’m indifferent.

Even if we were to live in an ideal society, I would say that the realities of life would make it nigh impossible for a woman to play out even the roles you have listed.

 

I disagree with you.

 

Take care. smile.gif

 

You too!

 

There are female scholars in Islam, the equivalent of a Rabbi.

 

Are there women out there who are scholars in present times other than the likes of Amina Wadud and do they have the same authority as male scholars? Are they called "Sheikha's"? (These are not rhetorical questions, I really want to know.)

 

Doesn't Islam claim to recognise all the prophets who came before Muhammad pbuh? Why discriminate against the women?

 

When I wrote this, I was referring to the female prophets. I thought I put prophets in there.

 

You also have to understand that just because women can't lead mixed congregations that it isn't necessarily discrimination. Do you think that the Torah was discriminating? If you think that Islam is necessarily discriminatory in this aspect, then the Torah by default is discriminatory. You can't fall back on the arguement, "Well, it's ancient times so it was good then but we have progressed". The Torah also says that the priesthood is eternal - repeatedly numerous times - it is the most repeated commandment that is told be everlasting.

 

Since the priesthood is everlasting, why doesn’t the Quran or Islam as a whole continue with it as it is described in the Torah? Why does the Quran abrogate it? You will notice that not all of the rituals described in the Torah for priests are still being observed today by Jews. The eternal nature of the priesthood as described in the Torah is an issue on its own.

Men and women have different roles, and yes, men cannot give birth because you were not designed that way, but we do have brains too and we can learn of the things of God and teach them and lead people in prayer. So yes, it is discrimination since it is claimed that in Islam women are equal and better off than Judeo-Christian women as some claim. “Equal but different,” yeah whatever, it’s either we have equal opportunities based upon our capabilities or not. The Bible and Qur’an are not the same. As I previously stated, the Torah was a product of its time and place – an ancient society where women had a lower status. The Torah even says that a man can sell his daughter, Younes.

If a woman cannot lead mixed prayers because her voice and curves will distract the men then the woman is being made into a sexual object (because her sexuality has been made more important than her intellect) and she is being blamed for the weakness of men so it is mysogynistic and sexist.

If you understood the consciousness of walking in Jesus’ footsteps you would understand where I’m coming from, but it is not something you can truly understand if you do not live it. I understand where you are coming from but I do not agree.

 

I don't really care whether the author contradicts himself, whether it is consistent. All I know is that it is there and it is applied by Christians, and I used it as an example to which you could relate.

 

Okay, but you referred to it in isolation rather than within the context of the NT as a whole and history. It was very convenient for your argument.

As for the idea of there being women Prophets, what we know that is that God only sent men as Messengers. Messengers such as Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Elijah, Jonah and Noah, peace be upon them all, who all had to preach publicly. The idea of there being women as Prophets is open to debate. However, there is no evidence that there ever was a Prophet based on Islamic evidence.

 

This is highly suspect to me. Since there is no need for the previous scripture as many like to claim, tell me all of the history in the OT using the Quran alone. The truth is you can’t. If indeed there weren’t any female prophets, then why doesn’t the Quran correct the Bible, since it ‘corrects’ other stories which benefit Islam in their reworked format? If they were false prophets, why not call them out as God did in the Bible? The idea of women being prophets is open to debate according to you, but in the Judeo-Christian tradition we know it as a fact. The ancient israelites had no need to fabricate such a story since women had a very low social status.

 

Women menstruate. Women are not allowed to pray or fast when they are menstruating because they are religiously impure at that time.

 

We don’t menstruate of our own will – this is how we were engineered by God. Are you one of those people who believe that a woman cannot even read the Qur’an when she is menstruating? I heard one sheikh say it is okay since the impurity is not on her hands but I can’t remember his name right now. Women should be able to pray during their menses because their hearts and souls are not made ‘unclean’. As for fasting, it would make sense to exempt women as they may become too weak and collapse. Not making war compulsory for women makes sense because a population would recover quicker after war if high casualties were incurred with many women and few men than if it were the other way around.

 

A woman is definately a lot more than curves and a voice, a woman is man's companion, mate, pair.

 

...... and an individual with a mind and a soul and intellect.

 

Shlama.

Edited by samantha-g

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Asifsabir,

 

I wish you all the best in turning your life around. I disagree with your comments about women making men horny and why they should cover. It's all our fault, huh? It's mysogynistic.

 

Uhh, female prophets? Maybe in Christianity. But we're not Christians.

 

Samantha, you've to first understand that men and women are assigned different rights and responsibilities in Islam. The responsibility of leading falls to men. If there is no man, then a woman can lead women.

 

"Oh, but that's so unfair! How old-fashioned!"

 

Most people leap to this conclusion without considering the bigger picture, without considering all of the allowances given to women that are not given to men. And most people, when they say that leadership should be given to women, are saying that the caretaker role that a mother or wife has is insignificant and unimportant. How offensive to mothers and wives.

 

Hello Redeem,

 

The role of mother and homemaker is not unimportant, but if women have the right to choose whether they do that only (or even at all) or juggle a career outside of the home then they should have the freedom to do so.

 

And most people, when they claim that the female body or voice is no more sexually enticing than the male body (to the opposite sex), are being ignorant of biology and society.

 

The above is not even relevant. Women are not imams of men because that is not their role as women. They can, however, lead a female gathering. It's as simple as that.

 

P.S: When speaking to a Muslim audience, please do not say "Why not do X, Muslims? God did X in the Bible". That is no more convincing to you than me telling you to stop doing something because the Qur'an says so.

 

Salam.

 

Redeem, again I am only sharing MY views and obviously as a Christian my background influences the way in which I view the world and you can say the same for Islam. And also, since Islam, Judaism and Christianity are all part of the Abrahamic tradition, continuity, similarities and differences are things which will always come up.

 

Peace to you too.

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The point i would like to note is you or many women can arguably say that why women should cover themself. Why not just men cannot control their lust. It is our (men) problem, why does u have to take the burden....

 

First of all men even shouldn't look at you at bad glance. This applies to both gender. Regarding, what i think is, most males are very much attracted towards girls. Covering are needed probably because so that men doesn't have any room for awakening lust, a safeguard. If lust occurs then it will be problematic forever no matter how tough u make the law (laws for rape) or will just make a relationship before marriage.

 

This covering is also a test of yours that how long can u stay widout being attracted by guys. Because girls are normally attention seekers. They like to be admired by their beauty. This is what i have seen from my experience of 7 gfs.

 

And yes even the voice of women do make many men horny, its like it differs from people to people what triggers you to become horny. You should even know that even the presence of women can also awake lust. There are so many problem of men, you cannot call us lucky rather you can say unlucky because so many thing in this world will make us do sin.

 

Asif,

 

Also, if covering worked so well, then women would not still be at risk of being raped in conservative societies and the death penalty for rape as a deterrent would not be necessary. There are communities around the world where women even walk bare-breasted yet the men can control themselves. Women who do not cover their hair are not harassed or assaulted in many places because it's just hair. If men are truly conditioned to respect women rather than think of sex when they see women then covering totally and segregation would not be such a necessity and a female preacher or prayer leader would not cause any distraction. If men are conditioned to believe that a woman's body is a sexual object, then that's all he will see. If men are conditioned to believe that they cannot control themselves because they are too weak, how can we expect them to?

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No soul has authority over another. Guidance and straying is a matter between God and you.

 

 

 

aakwrAllahwbHu

 

 

 

I’m indifferent.

 

Indifferent to some guys figuring out a better use for your mouth while you minister to them? : cool : Of course, I am not playing holier-than-thou.

 

I will leave you alone as far as this topic goes. Enjoy your ministry. :-)

 

 

I disagree with you.

 

Cool.

 

 

Take care. :-)

 

 

Alhamdu lillahi Rabbil aalameen.

 

 

la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Al-‘Atheemu Al-Haleemu, la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Rabbul ‘arshil-‘atheemi,

la ilaaha illaa Allaahu Rabbus-samaawaati wa Rabbul-ardhi wa Rabbul-‘arshil-kareemi

there is no god except Allah, the All-Mighty, the Forbearing; there is no god except Allah, the Lord of the Mighty Throne;

there is no god except Allah, Lord of the heavens, Lord of the earth and Lord of the noble Throne.

Edited by AsadullahHamza

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