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Why Islam Is Only True Religion From God

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So these types of penance are necessary for the justice due to God. These penances men perform are finite and therefore inadequate for an infinite offence which is why Jesus came to save us. Jesus alone can offer the Father infinite satisfaction for our sins.

 

It is now almost 3:30am my time, I’m going to bed now. Thank you for the conversation it’s been quite stimulating.

 

My wife is expecting a child quite soon so if I don’t appear in this forum tomorrow you’ll know why.

 

I’m sure you’ll be a fine example to other Muslims in your new found faith, I will pray for you. Please keep me in your prayers.

 

God bless you and take care.

Hi everyone' date='

 

I just had a dialogue that turned into a debate with a Muslim on a Muslim forum below.

 

http://www.gawaher.com/topic/735354-why-Islam-is-only-true-religion-from-god/page__st__120

 

My icon name is Augustine in the forum and the debate started on page 7

 

I need help from my Christian brothers and sisters. All of a sudden I feel lost, I feel like there is no absolute truth but only subjective truth. I need someone to whack some sense into me. For those of you who have time can you please review the thread and point out some corrections/errors?

 

I guess what I’m asking for is some encouragement to stay on the right path, to believe Jesus is indeed the way, the truth and the life.[/quote']

There is Absolute truth :excl:

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I need someone to whack some sense into me. For those of you who have time can you please review the thread and point out some corrections/errors?

 

Augustine, Why don't you ask God to "whack some sense into you"? If you feel lost and confused just fall on your face like Jesus(as) did and ask God to guide you to what HIS true path is? Beg God to show you the guidance. You don't need people, you just need to ask God who created you. So just ask God, not Jesus(as) but God.

 

And good luck with you wife's pregnancy. I hope all goes well.

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Open your mind, think logically what makes sense and what does not then as my brother here suggested pray to the one God. If necessary say that you are praying to the God of Abraham, of Noah, and of Moses (peace be upon them all) that way there is no confusion for these are the people that Islam, Christianity and Judaism all agree upon and center around.

 

May the Allah (swt) guide you

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my apologies Augustine. I have not had chance to make d'ua for you. I still intend to but I wanted you to know so that you did not have false ideas and it lead to some kind of misunderstanding. I never wish to misrepresent. if I say I am going to do something I will as I have learned while in Islam that one should watch what they say and be men [and women] of truth and speak only truth.

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Hi everyone,

 

I just had a dialogue that turned into a debate with a Muslim on a Muslim forum below.

 

http://www.gawaher.c...d/page__st__120

 

My icon name is Augustine in the forum and the debate started on page 7

 

I need help from my Christian brothers and sisters. All of a sudden I feel lost, I feel like there is no absolute truth but only subjective truth. I need someone to whack some sense into me. For those of you who have time can you please review the thread and point out some corrections/errors?

 

I guess what I’m asking for is some encouragement to stay on the right path, to believe Jesus is indeed the way, the truth and the life.

 

quran is absolute truth, logical truth, if we all together join to find and error we will all fail, beacuse this is real book of God without errors.

 

My christian brother augustine, if you are logical person you will find the truth, but if you are unlogical then you will never find the truth.

 

In my debate i try to use logic as much as posible to back up my arguments.

 

To challenge muslims, you need to study quran, difference between me and you i know both your book and my book , but you only know your book that is why it is difficult for you to discuss these matter deeply.

 

My advice for you, dont listen to catholics on that forum who talk lies about Islam, as soon as i have look at that forum, i notice lies from them, that is why i registred there to correct them.

 

We allways have to speak the truth. peace

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[at] Non-Muslims

If non-Muslim members want to bring other knowledgeable members of their own faith here, you are welcome to do so....This will be great!!! So, please, do not feel shy to invite others, and get involved in (peaceful) discussions/debates here. It's open for exchanging and sharing knowledge...

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  1. Muslims claim the Old and New Testaments have been corrupt. I have had this debate many times over regarding the differences between the Septuagint, Masoretic, Samaritan and the Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts. I’ve also debated Muslims regarding the alleged added ending to St Mark’s gospel, the interpolation of the first letter of St John chapter e verse 7-8, etc. I do not intend to debate these now but with my past debates not one Muslim has been able to convince me these are examples of textual corruption. Putting all arguments aside the only reason why Muslims know about them is because Christian scholars are open and honest about them. Christians admitted the above issues in contrast to the famous Uthman burning of Qurans with variant readings due to diverse dialects. Even if it was harmless burning the Qurans here is where I have an issue. The Christians are honest and could admit were there are variant readings without burning anything. The Qurans burnt give way to suspicion of some kind of cover up. Besides this we have two different generations of Jews and Christians accused of fabrication. It seems to be convenient to accuse the other side of fabrication when a passage does not agree with the Quran

 

Ahh man. You should have been at this debate. There was a debate and the Christian reverend/Priest brought up EXACTLY the same questions that you brought up. And the Muslim Scholar answered them all. Including the issue with Quran burning by Uthman(ra). Once I find that debate online I will post it up.

 

 

These two are the major obstacles I have with the Islamic faith. I don’t intend to debate, I’m merely pointing out what’s holding me back from becoming a Muslim.

 

Lets see what answers other more knowledgeable members present but again man just ask God and keep looking with an open mind. Don't force Islam or Christianity or anything else on your self unless your mind and heart accept it. I will also make duaa for you and your family insh'Allah. And always remember no matter how confused and lost you might feel just remember GOD is ALWAYS there and you only need to turn to him. Be patient and ask HIS help.

 

My wife’s caesarean is scheduled tomorrow morning so this is going to be my last post until things settle down at home. Thanks for your support again God bless you all.

 

Take your time and I hope all goes well. Good luck!

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Thanks guys for your support I appreciate it.

 

I guess I’m going through a phase of uncertainty. If I believe in Jesus as Lord and God I’m dammed by the Muslims, if I follow Mohammed I’m dammed by the Christians.

 

Among the many obstacles I have with Islam here are the major two that I just can’t get my head around.

  1. Muslims claim the Old and New Testaments have been corrupt. I have had this debate many times over regarding the differences between the Septuagint, Masoretic, Samaritan and the Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts. I’ve also debated Muslims regarding the alleged added ending to St Mark’s gospel, the interpolation of the first letter of St John chapter e verse 7-8, etc. I do not intend to debate these now but with my past debates not one Muslim has been able to convince me these are examples of textual corruption. Putting all arguments aside the only reason why Muslims know about them is because Christian scholars are open and honest about them. Christians admitted the above issues in contrast to the famous Uthman burning of Qurans with variant readings due to diverse dialects. Even if it was harmless burning the Qurans here is where I have an issue. The Christians are honest and could admit were there are variant readings without burning anything. The Qurans burnt give way to suspicion of some kind of cover up. Besides this we have two different generations of Jews and Christians accused of fabrication. It seems to be convenient to accuse the other side of fabrication when a passage does not agree with the Quran
     
  2. There have been thousands upon thousands of miracles attributed to Catholic saints by the power of God. I have not heard of one devout Muslim performing a Miracle. Sure I’ve seen on Youtube a Muslim child with Quran verses imprinted on skin in an unexplained way. Those types of miracles don’t really concern me; I’m talking about miracles such healing the blind, the lame people with cancer. Catholics have performed many healings such as these, I’ve never heard of Muslims performing anything even similar to these miracles…

These two are the major obstacles I have with the Islamic faith. I don’t intend to debate, I’m merely pointing out what’s holding me back from becoming a Muslim.

 

My wife’s caesarean is scheduled tomorrow morning so this is going to be my last post until things settle down at home. Thanks for your support again God bless you all.

 

 

I guess I’m going through a phase of uncertainty. If I believe in Jesus as Lord and God I’m dammed by the Muslims, if I follow Mohammed I’m dammed by the Christians.

 

it is totally normal to be worried if you find that your holy book contain errors, something you believe is right, turns to be wrong, but dont be worried you will find the truth if you are logical and honest person.

 

 

If I believe in Jesus as Lord and God I’m dammed by the Muslims, if I follow Mohammed I’m dammed by the Christians.

 

if you believe jesus is God

 

you are doomed according to jesus, and bible and quran and God , beacuse Jesus said There is only one God, dont forget that, if you believe jesus is God, then you create 2 gods, that is blasphemy wich can cause you to go to hell.

 

if I follow Mohammed I’m dammed by the Christians

 

they have no evidence at all to damm you, beacuse jesus himself prophesied muhammed and commanded people to follow him,

 

so to believe muhamemd will not leve faith in jesus, beacuse i as muslim have to beliecve both jesus and muhammed equally, if i did not i would not be a muslim anymore.

 

You shall not fear christians or muslims, you shall fear GOD, DONT FORGET THAT. beacuse he will punish you for sure if you associate partners with him.

 

God says in quran:

 

"Surely Allah will not forgive the association of partners (shirk) with Him, but He forgives (sins) less then that to whomever He wishes" (Surah An-Nisa 4:48)

 

5:72 Those who say, ‘God is the Messiah, son of Mary,’ have defied God. The Messiah himself said, ‘Children of israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.’ If anyone associates others with God, God will forbid him from the Garden, and Hell will be his home. No one will help such evildoers.

 

and jesus himself said Hear israel, our Lord is One God.

 

 

 

Muslims claim the Old and New Testaments have been corrupt. I have had this debate many times over regarding the differences between the Septuagint, Masoretic, Samaritan and the Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts. I’ve also debated Muslims regarding the alleged added ending to St Mark’s gospel, the interpolation of the first letter of St John chapter e verse 7-8, etc. I do not intend to debate these now but with my past debates not one Muslim has been able to convince me these are examples of textual corruption. Putting all arguments aside the only reason why Muslims know about them is because Christian scholars are open and honest about them

 

 

do you know that bible itself confirms that it contains lies??

 

Bible speaks about itself:

<< Jeremiah 8:8 >>

"'How can you say, "We are wise because we have the word of the LORD," when your teachers have twisted it by writing lies?

 

look this errors

 

Jacob father of Joseph?

 

Matthew 1:16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

 

vs

 

Heli father of Joseph?

 

Luke 3:23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli,

 

this is impossible to explain, dont try to say that heli was father of Mary and such nonsence, beacuse it clearly say Joseph, the son of Heli not Mary, daughter of Heli.

 

 

How many horsemen 1700 or 7000 ?

 

2 Samuel 8:4 And David took from him 1,700 horsemen, and 20,000 foot soldiers. And David hamstrung all the chariot horses but left enough for 100 chariots.

 

vs

 

1 Chronicles 18:4 And David took from him 1,000 chariots, 7,000 horsemen, and 20,000 foot soldiers. And David hamstrung all the chariot horses, but left enough for 100 chariots.

 

and there is a much more errors and corruption in bible, that is why bible can not be word of God, beacuse God does not make errors.

 

 

in contrast to the famous Uthman burning of Qurans with variant readings due to diverse dialects. Even if it was harmless burning the Qurans here is where I have an issue. The Christians are honest and could admit were there are variant readings without burning anything. The Qurans burnt give way to suspicion of some kind of cover up. Besides this we have two different generations of Jews and Christians accused of fabrication. It seems to be convenient to accuse the other side of fabrication when a passage does not agree with the Quran

 

not true at all

 

answer is here

 

Ahmed Deedat Answers: "Corruption in Bible or Quran?"

 

Why did Uthman, Prophet Muhammad's third disciple burn the "other books"?

 

 

The Noble Quran was revealed in one language and that is Arabic. It has only one original Arabic copy. Arabic 1400 years ago had 7 dialects. There exists today one original copy of the Noble in Saudi Arabia today. A copy of this original copy also exists in Turkey today as well.

When the Noble Quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, it was revealed in Arabic, and in the Quraishi dialect. The Quraishi dialect is the most proper Arabic dialect that properly uses the Arabic words without altering their sound.

The Quraishi dialect was the most popular dialect in the Middle East at that time, and is today the dialect used among Arabs who speak Proper Arabic. The dialect that books teach at schools is also a Quraishi dialect today.

Back in the Middle East 1400 years ago, the Quraishi dialect was not the only one used among Arabs. There existed 6 other dialects along with it, but as I said, it was the most popular.

It is very important in the Islamic faith that when we recite the Noble Quran, we recite it in the Quraishi dialect or what we call today in the proper Arabic. We can't pronounce for instance "th" as "sa" or "za". We can't pronounce "la" as "laman". We can't pronounce "ja" and "ga", etc...

There are no variances or missing parts in the Noble Quran. These are all false and baseless assumptions by some anti-Islamics. The Arabic dialects had problems with each others, and that's why standardizing the Noble Quran with its original Quraishi dialect was essential to keeping it as a perfect Holy Book: For instance, take the letter "j". Did you know that some Arabs don't pronounce the "j"? They always pronounce it as "g" or "ga".

Take "the" as another example. Some Arabs also don't pronounce "the". They pronounce it as "za".

Another example, and this is an important one in my opinion, is that some Arabs used to have a dialect which originated from Yemen, where they would add "an" at the end of a noun. Take for instance the popular word of today "Taliban", as in the Taliban in Afghanistan. "Taliban" is the same as the Arabic word "Talib" which means "Student".

The Afghans today used the old Arabic dialect from Yemen which dates even older than 1400 years ago when the Noble Quran was revealed. Back then in Yemen, as I said, they used to add the word "an" for nouns. So if they for instance wanted to refer to a stone "sakhr (in Arabic)", then they would refer to it as "sakhran", even though it would be written in Arabic as "sakhr".

In Islam, properly reciting the Words of Allah Almighty is the way it must be practiced. Otherwise, it would be considered a sin and disrespect toward Allah Almighty and the individual would be disobeying Allah Almighty and would gain bad deeds that will count against him in the Day of Judgment if he did it intentionally.

 

The preservation of the Noble Quran during Muhammad's time:

When Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him received the Noble Quran's Revelations in a 10-years span, he had everything documented on paper and saved with his close disciples and immediate family. He also had the entire Noble Quran memorized along with many of his followers. The Noble Quran during the times of our beloved Prophet peace be upon him was carefully preserved and protected from man's corruption. It was documented on paper and it was entirely memorized by many.

When Uthman, the third Caliph in Islam, compiled the Noble Quran, he did not determine the numerical order of the Noble Chapters and the Noble Verses. The entire Noble Quran as I said was already documented and memorized. Chapters from the Noble Quran were recited by our Prophet peace be upon him at least 5 times a day during the Muslims' five-daily prayers. Also, the Noble Quran was all recited during the month of Ramadan, as it is still done today. There are other daily and weekly religious occasions, festivals and holidays where the Noble Quran back then and still today was recited either partially or wholly. The Muslims who perfected the memorization of the Noble Quran back then continuously refreshed their memories through teaching others: Muslims and non-Muslims about Islam.

So, it is beyond the shadow of the doubt that the numbering and the order of the Noble Chapters and Verses was already determined by our Prophet peace be upon him through the inspiration and guidance of Allah Almighty, and not by anyone else.

Historically, almost every Muslim scholar had the entire Noble Quran memorized by heart. If you live among Muslims or know well how the Muslims deal with the Noble Quran, then you would know that tampering with the Noble Quran is impossible among the Muslims. If someone recites the Noble Quran to the public (in the Masjid for instance) and makes a mistake, then he would find many who would correct him because they would have the entire Noble Quran memorized by heart.

The memorization of the entire Noble Quran is something sacred in Islam. It helped the Noble Quran remain error-free from man's false documentation. Today in the Middle East they have programs and rewards for those who have the entire Noble Quran memorized. I once saw on TV a biography about a 4-years old little boy in Iran who had the entire Noble Quran memorized! He received a big reward and was enlisted in the "gifted kids" program.

We must know that according to Islam Allah Almighty Himself is protecting the Noble Quran until the Day of Judgment from man's corruption: "We [Allah] have, without doubt, sent down the Message [The Noble Quran]; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption). (The Noble Quran, 15:9)"

 

 

After the death of our beloved Prophet peace be upon him:

When Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him died, Islam was still small geographically. The Muslims mostly existed in the two cities of Mecca and Madina. Comparing those two cities' size to the Middle East region's size, they would not even be 0.0001% in comparison.

After the death of our beloved Prophet, Islam started to expand in the Middle East region. Not only the People of the entire region didn't have the same dialect, but also they had different languages. The languages that were spoken in the region at that time were Arabic (with its 7 dialects), Persian, Assyrian, Hebrew and some Greek. All of these languages are quite different from each others. You would need a translator to translate almost 100% of the conversation if you were to pick two languages and have two people converse with them, each person with one language.

As the Muslims expanded through the entire region, which is thousands of squared miles in area, the Noble Quran was documented at different places with sometimes different languages and Arabic dialects as well.

Islam mostly spread throughout the region during the first two Caliphs (our Prophet's disciples); may Allah Almighty be pleased with them, Abu-Baker Al-Siddeeq, and Omar bin Al-Khattab. They were mostly concerned with spreading Islam to the people of the entire region and never had the time, nor the rulership (since Islam wasn't quite spread throughout the entire region until toward the end of the second disciple's time) to unify the Noble Quran or the teaching of the Noble Quran with one dialect in recitation and spelling.

When Uthman bin Aaffan (the third disciple) came, Islam was pretty stable in the region, and he had rulership to implement the Quraishi dialect among all the Arabic speaking people in the entire region, and to teach them the Noble Quran through that dialect only.

Important Note: If the Noble Quran is recited in a different dialect than the Quraishi one, and if one tries to write down what he is reciting, he could and would end up with different words in spelling and in some cases in meaning as well than the original copy of the Noble Quran.

When Uthman got hold of all of the Qurans that were written in different dialects, and in some cases were altered to sound exactly like the other dialects, he ordered for them to get burnt because they did not use the proper Arabic that was revealed unto our beloved Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, and in some cases their words were different because of this dialect difference. He then compiled all of the Noble Surahs (Chapters) of the Noble Quran that were already written during the time of Prophet Muhammad in the city of Madina and formed what we call today the one true copy of the "Noble Quran".

Important Note: As I mentioned above, when Uthman, the third Caliph in Islam, compiled the Noble Quran, he did not determine the numerical order of the Noble Chapters and the Noble Verses. The entire Noble Quran as I said was already documented and memorized. Chapters from the Noble Quran were recited by our Prophet peace be upon him at least 5 times a day during the Muslims' five-daily prayers. Also, the Noble Quran was all recited during the month of Ramadan, as it is still done today. There are other daily and weekly religious occasions, festivals and holidays where the Noble Quran back then and still today was recited either partially or wholly. The Muslims who perfected the memorization of the Noble Quran back then continuously refreshed their memories through teaching others: Muslims and non-Muslims about Islam.

So, it is beyond the shadow of the doubt that the numbering and the order of the Noble Chapters and Verses was already determined by our Prophet peace be upon him through the inspiration and guidance of Allah Almighty, and not by anyone else.

Ever since then and till today, the Arabic Noble Quran is taught with one Arabic dialect, and that is the Quraishi dialect. Also, the proper Arabic language as I mentioned above that is taught in schools and books today is also in the Quraishi dialect.

 

 

Conclusion:

The Noble Quran today is One True Perfect Divine Holy Book. It survived man's alterations and corruptions. The Noble Quran was all documented on the spot during Prophet Muhammad's times. The Noble Quran's numerical ordering of the Noble Verses and Chapters were also determined Prophet Muhammad through the inspirations of Allah Almighty. The Noble Quran was memorized and recited over and over again through the Muslims' five-daily prayers, the Holy Month of Ramadan, and other events and occasions where Muslims who perfected the memorization of the Noble Quran continuously refreshed their memories through teaching others.

So, it is beyond the shadow of the doubt that the numbering and the order of the Noble Chapters and Verses was already determined by our Prophet peace be upon him through the inspiration and guidance of Allah Almighty, and not by anyone else.

 

 

 

There have been thousands upon thousands of miracles attributed to Catholic saints by the power of God. I have not heard of one devout Muslim performing a Miracle. Sure I’ve seen on Youtube a Muslim child with Quran verses imprinted on skin in an unexplained way. Those types of miracles don’t really concern me; I’m talking about miracles such healing the blind, the lame people with cancer. Catholics have performed many healings such as these, I’ve never heard of Muslims performing anything even similar to these miracles…

 

but do you know that such people shall go to hell according to Jesus? do you ?

 

look this

 

<< Matthew 7:22-23 >>

Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'

Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you evildoers!'"

 

why would jesus expell them from himself, do you know why?

 

beacuse they thought jesus was God, while jesus himself never said hw was God, he was only a prophet from God, who prayed to God like rest of us.

 

so dont be fooled by those miracle workers beacuse jesus himself shall call tghem evildoers when he come back in his second coming in future.

 

And of course muslim does not need preform miracle biggest we have quran is is greater miracle than all.

 

And by the way, there is some muslims who did miracle, actually God did trough them, not they by they own power, no no, it is God who do miracle as sign of his help.

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These two are the major obstacles I have with the Islamic faith. I don’t intend to debate, I’m merely pointing out what’s holding me back from becoming a Muslim.

 

My wife’s caesarean is scheduled tomorrow morning so this is going to be my last post until things settle down at home. Thanks for your support again God bless you all.

 

augustine, my friend, we are not your enemies , but friends.

 

Islam is only correct relgion on the face of earth right now, all other faiths are corrupted or man-made.

 

If you were a muslim, you would still believe in all prophets expect that you would add muhammed among them.

 

Following muhammed is like following true teching of jesus, just compare for yourself, jesus prayed like we muslims with face on the ground, washed before prayer like we muslims, called God Allah like we muslims, dfasted like we muslims, did not eat pork or drink alcohol neighter do we, his mother had headscarf like muslim woman.

 

Jesus called God Allah

 

and many many other things, so following Islam is following true teaching of jesus, that is something wich most christians dont know, beacuse we muslims are true followers of jesus , not christians, christians are followers of Paul, who created christianity after jesus was rised to heaven.

 

i finish this post with this:

 

God says to all of us:

 

And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will not be accepted from him and he will be one of the losers in the Hereafter. (Quran, 3:85)

 

 

decide before death comes, then it will be to late

 

To be true follower of jesus(muslim) or to be follower of Paul(christian)

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Augustine, i registred on that ctaholixc forum yeasterday, and they kicked me out and closed my account, that shows how tolereant they are.

 

here in this Islamic forum you have freedom to discuss these matter oppenly, so i recommend you to invite all christians from that forum to this discuss relgion with us muslims, but probably they wont dare to come here beacuse we expose their lies. and tell people the truth.

 

As soon as i exposed yeasterday lies on their forum, i clearly showed where they made lies and error about Islam, they closed my account, amazing, this only show me one thing, they are afraid of truth, that is why the banned me from that forum. they like putting lies between then and there is no muslims to correct them.

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i want to share with you very beautiful Islamic prayer

 

beautiful Islamic call to prayer

 

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Thanks guys for your support I appreciate it.

 

I guess I’m going through a phase of uncertainty. If I believe in Jesus as Lord and God I’m dammed by the Muslims, if I follow Mohammed I’m dammed by the Christians.

 

Among the many obstacles I have with Islam here are the major two that I just can’t get my head around.

  1. Muslims claim the Old and New Testaments have been corrupt. I have had this debate many times over regarding the differences between the Septuagint, Masoretic, Samaritan and the Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts. I’ve also debated Muslims regarding the alleged added ending to St Mark’s gospel, the interpolation of the first letter of St John chapter e verse 7-8, etc. I do not intend to debate these now but with my past debates not one Muslim has been able to convince me these are examples of textual corruption. Putting all arguments aside the only reason why Muslims know about them is because Christian scholars are open and honest about them. Christians admitted the above issues in contrast to the famous Uthman burning of Qurans with variant readings due to diverse dialects. Even if it was harmless burning the Qurans here is where I have an issue. The Christians are honest and could admit were there are variant readings without burning anything. The Qurans burnt give way to suspicion of some kind of cover up. Besides this we have two different generations of Jews and Christians accused of fabrication. It seems to be convenient to accuse the other side of fabrication when a passage does not agree with the Quran
     
  2. There have been thousands upon thousands of miracles attributed to Catholic saints by the power of God. I have not heard of one devout Muslim performing a Miracle. Sure I’ve seen on Youtube a Muslim child with Quran verses imprinted on skin in an unexplained way. Those types of miracles don’t really concern me; I’m talking about miracles such healing the blind, the lame people with cancer. Catholics have performed many healings such as these, I’ve never heard of Muslims performing anything even similar to these miracles…

These two are the major obstacles I have with the Islamic faith. I don’t intend to debate, I’m merely pointing out what’s holding me back from becoming a Muslim.

 

My wife’s caesarean is scheduled tomorrow morning so this is going to be my last post until things settle down at home. Thanks for your support again God bless you all.

 

1. There is some very obvious bias at play here. "Putting all arguments aside the only reason why Muslims know about them is because Christian scholars are open and honest about them." Are you suggesting that all NT scholarship is Christian? NT scholarship is not a Christian monopoly, certainly not a Catholic one. There are secular scholars among them. How's about we know about those things because scholars in general know about them?

 

The great irony is of course that you know about the incident of 'Uthman (ra) from Muslim scholars. Putting all arguments aside the only reason why you know about the incident is because Muslim scholars have been open and honest about them throughout the scope of Islamic scholarship which roughly spans 1400 years. Muslims are not hiding anything. In this case you literally do know about this because Muslims have transmitted and preserved that information. There are multiple readings that are recited even today! (I don't use the word variant since it implies uncertainty). What you have written is completly biased.

 

2. Miracles have been attributed to Muslim saints. Numerous ones. The only reason you have not heard about them is because Muslims don't put emphasis on those miracles when we preach to non-Muslims.

 

May your wife deliver safely.

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Augustine, i registred on that ctaholixc forum yeasterday, and they kicked me out and closed my account, that shows how tolereant they are.

 

here in this Islamic forum you have freedom to discuss these matter oppenly, so i recommend you to invite all christians from that forum to this discuss relgion with us muslims, but probably they wont dare to come here beacuse we expose their lies. and tell people the truth.

 

As soon as i exposed yeasterday lies on their forum, i clearly showed where they made lies and error about Islam, they closed my account, amazing, this only show me one thing, they are afraid of truth, that is why the banned me from that forum. they like putting lies between then and there is no muslims to correct them.

 

Here are the forum rules for Gawaher which applies to the discussion of other religions or possibly the search for truth

 

4. Posting anti-Islamic link or offensive content > 1 point

8. Disrespecting a forum official > 1 point

11. Making a sect related post > 1 point

16. Starting a topic to preach another faith > 1 point

18. Posting what wrongfully gives Islam a bad name > 1 point

20. Showing no interest in learning about Islam, or consistently attacking Muslims/Islam > 1 point

 

The key to rule #4 is that depending on the IF moderator, offensive can be a broad scope. In my year plus on the forum, I have seen this interpreted strictly and sometimes less strict. Different people are offended by different things.

 

Rule #8 I only included because forum officials seem to have the unrestricted ability to disrespect forum users. I have seen much name calling and personal attacks, often from IF Guardians or other specially classified groups within here. When this behavior occurs during the discussion of religion recognized by the administrators, it does now allow effective discussion of views which go against the forum consensus. It creates anger, hostility, and no truth ends up being discussed in a responsible way.

 

Rule #11 also has a broad scope. Once I related some history which touched upon both Sunni and Shi'a history and was given advisement by an administrator that I am on the verge of violating this rule. Discussing the totality of Islamic history and theology is thus impossible as many sources are not allowed.

 

Rule #16 would not allow a Catholic or member of any other religion to come here to preach their religion. The purpose of the forum, stated quite clearly, is for people to learn about Islam, well Islam as per the consensus of the forum administrators.

 

Rule #18 has a very broad scope. The use wrongfully goes hand in hand with the limitation of posting things which could give Islam a bad name, even if it is justified by the concerns of a true seeker. Topics get closed and people are warned if the discussion cannot be turned around. Take for example a topic I started about “Salafism” which is not banned on this forum. Yet, the topic was closed within 2 days. Honest discussions which could shed a negative light on modern day Sunni Islam are difficult to have, if at all.

 

Rule #20 I have been accused of repeatedly on here for teaching what I believe the Qur'an says, due to my interpretation and independent reasoning going against the consensus. All this without attacking any person and praising God, the Qur'an, and His Messengers. The key is I was not very open to Sunni Islam.

 

All of this has resulted in me working within the forum to teach what I believe without expressing fully what I believe. If I had continued, I would also have been banned, as I had been warned before. Any person who enjoys this forum, is a Muslim, and expects a different treatment on other religious forums should not be surprised to be banned. As I have noticed on this forum, there are many people, Muslims and non-Muslims, who are quite belligerent and insulting.

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Plenty of non muslims get banned from this forum for saying something muslims dont like, are muslims afraid of the truth aswell?

 

There is a difference between defending their own faith, and attacking others' faith. Andalusi openly said there that he loves and respects Jesus. And he was clearing up misconceptions. They accused Islam of many things FIRST, he exposed their lies.

 

There are many contents on this forum which many Muslims do not like, but they still exist here. A good example is you. You have so far managed to post 271 times which are mostly off-topic, inflammatory comments and false accusations, lies, but they still exist here. And we are actually quite hostile towards liars and trolls.

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Rule #8 I only included because forum officials seem to have the unrestricted ability to disrespect forum users. I have seen much name calling and personal attacks, often from IF Guardians or other specially classified groups within here. When this behavior occurs during the discussion of religion recognized by the administrators, it does now allow effective discussion of views which go against the forum consensus. It creates anger, hostility, and no truth ends up being discussed in a responsible way.

 

I want to see this (allegation against IF guardians) backed up by overwhelming evidence, please. You also made many other claims, and I will not go into them for now.

 

All of this has resulted in me working within the forum to teach what I believe without expressing fully what I believe. If I had continued, I would also have been banned, as I had been warned before. Any person who enjoys this forum, is a Muslim, and expects a different treatment on other religious forums should not be surprised to be banned. As I have noticed on this forum, there are many people, Muslims and non-Muslims, who are quite belligerent and insulting.

 

As I said earlier, There is a difference between defending their own faith, and attacking others' faith. Andalusi openly said there that he loves and respects Jesus. And he was clearing up the misconceptions. They accused Islam of many things FIRST, he exposed their lies. Now they banned him and deleted his posts, where he was defending Islam.

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Was Muhammad Really a Prophet? Kamal El Mekki on TheDeenShow

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just look what american muslims say how they feel when they pray in Mekka for the first time

 

praying in mekka, all are in white clothes :) you can feel positive energi even from this video

 

 

prophet muhammed's Masjid in medina

image-163567-galleryV9-ikca.jpg

 

medina.jpg

 

image-161968-galleryV9-naxx.jpg

 

Kaba Mekka

stock-photo-mecca-dec-muslim-pilgrims-in-ihram-clothes-pray-at-one-of-the-mosques-dec-in-50890615.jpg

Kaba Mekka

image-162401-galleryV9-hrpd.jpg

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So.. let's stir the pot a little further.

 

Why isn't the Baha'i Faith from God? I know this religion is not allowed to be discussed, but if the topic is "Why Islam is the only from God" then this means a comparison is being made with all the other religions.

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So.. let's stir the pot a little further.

 

Why isn't the Baha'i Faith from God? I know this religion is not allowed to be discussed, but if the topic is "Why Islam is the only from God" then this means a comparison is being made with all the other religions.

 

give me little more information about it then i will judge it with quran if it is from God or not.

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Why isn't the Baha'i Faith from God? I know this religion is not allowed to be discussed, but if the topic is "Why Islam is the only from God" then this means a comparison is being made with all the other religions.

 

You should start another thread for this topic in the Refuting non-Muslims-section. This thread has grown quite big.

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Quran Preservation & Compilation -1 (Prophet’s lifetime)

 

 

Many polemics especially Christian missionaries speak against Qur'an and try to create confusions. In this series we shall study in brief the whole process of Qur'an preservation and compilation.

 

Main Medium of Qur'an Preservation:

One thing that ought to be kept in mind regarding the preservation of the Qur'an is that it was done more through memory then through writing. There was and is great wisdom in this. We see that in the case of earlier Prophets whose teachings were not committed to memory were lost. Some times the invaders destroyed the manuscripts and sometimes the scribes intentionally or intentionally made mistakes. So to avoid the same to happen to the Qur'an more emphasis was laid on its memorization though it was put into writing as well.

 

Therefore we read in Sahih Muslim that Allah Almighty said to the Holy Prophet (PBUH):

وَأَنْزَلْتُ عَلَيْكَ كِتَابًا لَا يَغْسِلُهُ الْمَاءُ

"I sent the Book to you which cannot be washed away by water." (Sahih Muslim, Hadith 5109)

This meant that Qur'an will not be preserved only on scrolls but through some other medium as well. So Muslims right from the beginning gave special attention to memorizing the Qur'an so not only the Holy Prophet (PBUH) himself but scores of his companions learnt the complete Qur'an by heart. They include Abu Bakr, Umar, Usman, Ali, Abdullah bin Masud, Talha, Sa'ad, Huzaifa, Ubayy bin Ka'b, Abdullah bin Abbas, Abdullah bin Zubar, Abdullah bin Sai'b, Zaid bin Thabit, Abu Hurairah, Abu Darda, Ma'az bin Jabal, Anas bin Malik, Abu Musa Ashari, Muawiyyah, Sayyidah Aisha, Sayyidah Umm Salmah, Sayyidah Hafsa and many more.

(More names of the companions who had rendered complete Qur'an to their memory can be found in An-Nashr fil Qir'at al-Ashr by Al-Jazri and Al-Ittiqan by Jalaluddin Suyuti)

Quran Compilation during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet:

But nevertheless Qur'an was also written down and this was done right during the life time of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). And all the later codices were based on what was dictated by the Holy Prophet (PBUH) himself. We shall see the details shortly.

Holy Prophet (PBUH) had around 40 companions who usually worked as scribes. The names of these companions have been mentioned in various authentic writings. Holy Prophet (PBUH) made special arrangements for the Qur'an to be written. How the Qur'an was written and was checked by the Prophet (PBUH) is evident from the following example:

عن زيد بن ثابت قال : كنت أكتب الوحي لرسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ، وكان « إذا نزل عليه أخذته برحاء شديدة ، وعرق عرقا شديدا مثل الجمان، ثم سري عنه » ، فكنت أدخل عليه بقطعة الكتف أو كسرة ، فأكتب وهو يملي علي ، فما أفرغ حتى تكاد رجلي تنكسر من ثقل القرآن ، وحتى أقول : لا أمشي على رجلي أبدا ، فإذا فرغت قال : « اقرأه » ، فأقرؤه ، فإن كان فيه سقط أقامه ، ثم أخرج به إلى الناس

Zaid bin Thabit, one of the chief scribes relates: 'I used to write down the revelation for the Holy Prophet (PBUH). When the revelation came to him he felt intense heat and drops of perspiration used to roll down his body like pearls. When this state was over I used to fetch a shoulder bone or a piece of something else. He used to go on dictating and I used to write it down. When I finished writing the sheer wait of transcription gave me the feeling that my leg would break and I would not be able to walk anymore. Anyhow when I finished writing, he would say, 'Read!' and I would read it back to him. If there was an omission or error he used to correct it and then let it be brought before the people.'

(Mu'jam Al-Tabarani Al-Awst 4/445 Hadith 1985. Authenticated by Al-Haithmi in Majma’ Al-Zawaid 8/257)

This is a categorical proof that Companions used to write Qur'an in the supervision of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and got it checked from him before making it public.

Also there are proofs that during the life time of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) the written manuscripts of Qur'an were there. Infact writing of the Qur'an was in practice from the early days of Islam as evident from the event of the reversion of one of the closest companions, Umar bin Khattab, when he found his sister and brother-in-law with a parchment on which the verses of Surah Taha (chapter 20) were written.

(cf. Sunan Dar Qutni 1/491 Hadith 451. Zayli' confirmed its authenticity)

There are some other traditions which indicate that Companions had written copies of complete or incomplete Quran. For example;

عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ عُمَرَ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمَا أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ نَهَى أَنْ يُسَافَرَ بِالْقُرْآنِ إِلَى أَرْضِ الْعَدُوِّ

Narrated Abdullah bin 'Umar: 'Allah's Messenger forbade the people to travel to a hostile country carrying (copies of) the Quran.'

(Sahih Bukhari, Hadith 2768)

Obviously these traditions irrefutably indicate to the fact the Companions used to have written copies of the Qur’an even during the life time of the Holy Prophet (PBUH).

Claim that Qurān was not written completely during the Prophet’s time:

Orientalists claim that Qur’an was not written in full during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). This is false and the fact is that whole of the Qur’an was indeed written in the supervision of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) but it was not compiled into one collection. This is testified by the statement of Zaid bin Thabit, one of the chief scribes. He said:

قُبِضَ النَّبِيّ صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَلَمْ يَكُنْ الْقُرْآن جُمِعَ فِي شَيْء

“The Prophet passed way while the Qurān was yet not gathered into a book.” (Fath Al-Bari 14/193)

Clearly the word used here is jumia’ i.e. gathered and not written. And the wisdom behind the fact that Qur’an was completely written but not compiled at one place during the life of the holy Prophet (PBUH) is explained by Al-Khattabi. He said;

‘The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) did not gather the Qur’an in a Mushaf because he had to wait if there was some abrogation of some commands or recitation but when he died and the revelation ceased (and thus abrogation as well); Allah, to fulfill his True Commitment of preservation (of Qur’an) for this Ummah, put this thought into the hearts of the Righteous Caliphs. Then this great task was undertaken by Abu Bakr on the advice of Umar.’ (Al-Ittiqan 1/143 Section 18)

In the next part we shall discuss the circumstances which lead to the compilation of the Holy Qur'an during the days of Abu Bakr (RA) and misconceptions regarding it.

 

 

Quran Preservation & Compilation -2 (Circumstances during Abu Bakr's time)

 

 

 

 

During the time of Abu Bakr (RA) circumstances asked for the collection of various writings to be gathered in one compilation. Following narration gives an account of it;

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari: Abu Bakr sent for me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra' were killed). 'Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said, 'Umar has come to me and said, The people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be more casualties among the Qurra' (those who know the Qur'an by heart) at other battle-fields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost, unless you collect it.

And I am of the opinion that you should collect the Qur'an." Abu Bakr added, "I said to 'Umar, 'How can I do something which Allah's Messenger has not done?' 'Umar said (to me), 'By Allah, it is (really) a good thing.' So 'Umar kept on pressing, trying to persuade me to accept his proposal, till Allah opened my bosom for it and I had the same opinion as 'Umar." (Zaid bin Thabit added:) Umar was sitting with him (Abu Bakr) and was not speaking. me). "You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness): and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Messenger. Therefore, look for the Qur'an and collect it (in one manuscript). “By Allah, if he (Abu Bakr) had ordered me to shift one of the mountains (from its place) it would not have been harder for me than what he had ordered me concerning the collection of the Qur'an. I said to both of them, "How dare you do a thing which the Prophet has not done?" Abu Bakr said, "By Allah, it is (really) a good thing. So I kept on arguing with him about it till Allah opened my bosom for that which He had opened the bosoms of Abu Bakr and Umar. So I started locating Qur’anic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leaf-stalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart). (Sahih Bukhari, Kitabul Tafir, Hadith 4603)

The Martyrs of Battle of Yamama and frustration of Polemicists & Missionaries:

The Hadith above says that martyrdom of a number of Qur’a (Reciters) in the Battle of Yamama happened to be the final stimulus for the compilation of Qur’an into a single codex. The way it has been dealt with by the Missionaries and polemicists shows their absolute frustration. On one hand the likes of Schwally, Richard Bell and Montgomery Watt suggested that the traditions about it are subject to much criticism and argued that there were hardly any considerable reciters among those who fell at Yamama. One of them writes;

In the lists of those who fell in that campaign, very few are mentioned who were likely to have had much of the Qur’an Qur’an by heart’. And further that; ‘those killed were mostly recent converts.’ (Montgomery Watt: Bell’s Introduction to the Qur’an, Chapter 3: Online Source)

And on the other hand some of them tend to convey that too many reciters were killed in the Battle and some parts of the Qur’an were lost with their death as only they knew it.

‘A great majority of the Qur'anic reciters had been killed at al-Yamama, forever taking with them portions of the Qur'an that only they knew.’ (Sam Shamoun: Compilation of the Qur’an. Online Source)

This is a perfect manifestation of the incoherent approach these people have towards Islamic sources. All they know is to seek to find fault with the Qur’an and Hadith one way or the other.

Infact both these contentions are wrong. Some of the important Qur’a (Reciters) were indeed martyred in this battle and thus Umar’s (RA) emphasis for the compilation of the Qur’an. Among the martyrs were Abu Khuzaifa, Salim (one of the four known for their extensive knowledge of Qur’an), Zaid bin Khattab, Thabit bin Qais, Tufail bin ‘Amr, Yazeed bin Thabit, Saib bin Awwam etc. All these were known for their profound knowledge of the Qur’an. Excluding these the martyrs included 18 Emigrants (Muhajireen), of the Ansar 20 were those who participated in Battle of Badr, 10 were such as who fought at Uhud (For the complete list of martyrs of Yamama see Ibn Kathir’s Al-Bidaya wal-Nihaya and Ibn Athir’s Al-Kamil) This proves, the contention of the well known Orientalists that martyrs were mostly ‘recent converts’ is totally rubbish and a manifestation of their superficial knowledge of Islamic sources.

But at the same time to assume that all the people who learnt the whole of Qur’an by heart lost their lives is also fallacious. No part of the Qur’an was lost with the death of some Qur’a (Reciters) because no matter how many they were, there still remained people who had memorized the whole of Qur’an.

Sam Shamoun refers to a narration in Ibn Abi Dawud’s Al-Masahif which reads;

Zuhri reports, 'We have heard that many Qur'an passages were revealed but that those who had memorised them fell in the Yemama fighting. Those passages had not been written down, and following the deaths of those who knew them, were no longer known; nor had Abu Bakr, nor `Umar nor `Uthman as yet collected the texts of the Qur'an. Those lost passages were not to be found with anyone after the deaths of those who had memorised them. This, I understand, was one of the considerations which impelled them to pursue the Qur'an during the reign of Abu Bakr, committing it to sheets for fear that there should perish in further theatres of war men who bore much of the Qur'an which they would take to the grave with them on their fall, and which, with their passing, would not be found with any other. (Ibn Abi Dawud’s Al-Masahif 1/80 Narration 65, Translation from Sam Shamoun’s page)

The fact is this narration is not valid according to the rules of narration as Zuhri was not the eye witness nor has he mentioned as to what is his source of information. He rather narrates with the word بلغنا i.e. ‘it has reached us’ and a narration this way is not acceptable. Even if he had actually related it on the authority of someone who was the eyewitness and had not listened from personally the narration would still have been unauthentic while in this case nothing is known about his source the narration is totally unreliable.

Moreover it also goes against other more rigorous narrations about the people who had memorized the whole of the Qur’an and did not die in the Battle.

Suyuti has quoted a narration of Nasai’ and authenticated it that Abdullah bin Umar (RA) had memorized the whole of the Qur’an during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and we know he did not die at Yamama. Moreover others who had memorized the whole of Qur’an and lived after Yamama include Ubayy bin Ka’b, Abu Ayub Ansari, Ubadah bin Samit, M’az bin Jabal, Abu Darda (RA). (Al-Ittiqan 1/56 Section 20)

These are just a few names recorded in just one book, Al-Ittiqan by Suyuti, clearly mentioning that they had memorized the whole of the Qur’an during the lifetime of the Messenger of Allah (PBUH). These are enough to show that the narration of Zuhri brought forward by Sam Shamoun is baseless. There are other evidences that more companions had actually memorized the whole of Qur’an during Prophet’s (PBUH) lifetime.

Did only four people memorize Qur’an during the Prophet’s (PBUH) lifetime?

Sam Shamoun following the footsteps of his predecessor liars uses a narration from Sahih Muslim to suggest that when Zaid (RA) undertook the task of compiling the whole of the Qur’an at one place other codices were already in circulation. The narration goes as:

Anas is reported to have said: Four persons collected the Qur'an during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and all of them were Ansar: Mu'adh b. Jabal, Ubayy b. Ka'b, Zaid b. Thabit, Abu Zaid. Qatada said: Anas, who was Abu Zaid? He said: He was one of my uncles. (Sahih Muslim, Hadith 4507)

There are many flaws in the assertion of Sam Shamoun:

1) The narration only relates to rendering the whole of the Qur’an to memory and not putting it in codices. The detailed discussion in Al-Ittiqan clarifies this.

2) The apparent meaning of the narration cannot be true as many companions had memorized the Qur’an in full while the Prophet (PBUH) was alive. The names given under the previous heading testify to it. The fact is Anas (RA) said this in a particular context and it relates to Ansar only. The following narration, referred to by Ibn Hajr as well, clarifies this;

‘Two families of Aws and Khazrij boasted about their superiority over the other. The Aws said, four of us have been of great esteem. One for whom Allah’s throne trembled, he was Sa’d bin M’az. Second, whose testimony was considered equal to two, he is Khuzaima bin Thabit. Third whom the angels gave the (funeral) bath, he is Hanzala bin Abi Aamir. And fourth whose body was saved by the bees from being taken by the infidels, he is Asim bin Thabit. The Khazrij said four of us memorized the whole of Qur’an and no one except them memorized the whole of it. Then Anas (RA) named the four.’ (Al-Ittiqan 1/171 Section 20)

As per this, it was only a comparison between two tribes of Ansar and thus it ought to be considered with respect to them only and not the Muhajireen (Emigrants).

Moreover we also ought to consider what Al-Maziri argued about this narration for he made really a valid point when he said;

‘The saying of Anas (RA) does not prove that except these four no other companion had memorized the whole of Qur’an and that his saying is the ultimate truth because here his words merely imply that Anas (RA) did not know anyone except these four to have memorized the whole of the Qur’an. And while the companions had spread in different cities how could it have been possible for Anas (RA) to know (about each one of them)? It would be possible only if Anas (RA) had met each of them individually and asked him if he had collected the whole of Qur’an during the Prophet’s (PBUH) lifetime and if each of them had replied in negative. This is obviously out of question and if this statement is taken only to be according to the knowledge of Anas (RA) then it does not mean his statement is actually true.’ (Al-Ittiqan 1/170 Section 20)

Was there any Mushaf in circulation before Abu Bakr (RA) decided to undertake the task?

1) Was Salim (RA) the freed slave of Abu Huzaifa the first person to collect Qur’an in a Mushaf?

Sam Shamoun uses a narration recorded in Al-Ittiqan to convey that Salim, the freed slave of Huzaifa and not Abu Bakr was the first one to collect the whole of Qur’an in one codex. The narration goes as;

‘Ibn Buraida said, the first person to collect the Qur’an in one codex (Mushaf) was Salim, the freed slave of Huzaifa.’

But displaying his unmatchable ‘skill’ of intellectual dishonestly he fails to either quote the criticism on this narration by the author of Al-Ittiqan or to dare challenge his criticism. Infact Al-Suyuti, the author himself says before quoting this narration;

The most strange narration about the first person to collect the Qur’an (in one Mushaf) is the one narrated by Ibn Ashta in his Kitabul Masahif…’ and then he related the narration in question.

This is not all, just after the narration Al-Suyuti categorically says;

‘Its chain is disconnected.’ See Al-Ittiqan 1/145 Section 18.

2) Was Ali (RA) the first one to organize a complete Mushaf of the Qur’an?

Someone may refer to narrations about Ali’s (RA) having compiled the whole of the Qur’an before the official endeavor. Here are a couple of narrations in this regard and truth about them;

Ibn Abi Dawud narrated from Ibn Sirin that he said; ‘Ali (RA) used to say that when the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) died I made a firm conviction that I’ll put on an extra sheet of cloth except for Friday prayers until I gather the (whole of) Qur’an so I did it.’

But this narration is not an evidence for its weakness. Suyuti quotes Ibn Hajr to have said; ‘This narration is Da’if for it is disconnected (in chain) and even if it is considered Sahih it conveys that Ali (RA) meant to say he memorized the Qur’an.’ (Al-Ittiqan 1/144 Section 18)

Another narration on the same lines reads;

‘Ikrama narrated, After giving allegiance to Abu Bakr (RA) Ali (RA) stayed at home. Abu Bakr (RA) was told that Ali (RA) disliked giving allegiance to him. Abu Bakr (RA) called for Ali (RA) and asked him, ‘Did you dislike giving allegiance to me?’ Ali (RA) replied, ‘By Allah this is not case.’ Abu Bakr (RA) inquired, ‘Why then you did not come to me?’ Ali (RA) said, ‘I saw additions being done to the Book of Allah thus I made my mind not to take on an extra sheet of cloth except for Salah until I gather it.’ Hearing this Abu Bakr said, ‘That’s a good you hit upon.’ (Al-Ittiqan 1/144 Section 18)

Regarding this narration following points ought to be considered;

1) ‘Ikarma does not mention the person on whose authority he says this while this is certain that he was not there during the days of Abu Bakr (RA).

2) This narration does not imply that he actually prepared the codex but simply that he learnt the whole of Qur’an by heart.

3) This even goes against an authentic narration from Ali (RA) himself in which he said;

‘Concerning Musahif (codices) the greatest reward will be for Abu Bakr. May Allah have mercy on Abu Bakr for; he is the first one to gather (the Book of Allah) between two bindings.’ (Ibn Abu Dawud’s Al-Masahif 1/16-20 Hadith 8-12)

Al-Suyuti quoted and authenticated it in Al-Ittiqan 1/144 Section 18 calling it Hasan.

All these details debunk the myths created by the missionaries who study without any justified methodology and whose only aim is to seek trouble with Qur’an. Let us ensure them that all such endeavors will only bring shame to them.

In the next post we discuss the actual compilation of Qur'an and its details during the days of Abu Bakr (RA).

INDEED Allah KNOWS THE BEST!

 

 

Quran Preservation & Compilation -3 (under Abu Bakr)

 

 

 

 

In the last post of this series we discussed the circumstances during the time of Abu Bakr (RA) which lead him to seek the compilation of Qur’an in one binding. Today let’s analyze as to what he did and how actually;

Back drop in brief:

Although we discussed the back drop of this endeavor earlier as well but here is a quick recap;

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari: Abu Bakr sent for me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra' were killed). 'Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said, 'Umar has come to me and said, The people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be more casualties among the Qurra' (those who know the Qur'an by heart) at other battle-fields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost, unless you collect it. And I am of the opinion that you should collect the Qur'an." Abu Bakr added, "I said to 'Umar, 'How can I do something which Allah's Messenger has not done?' 'Umar said (to me), 'By Allah, it is (really) a good thing.' So 'Umar kept on pressing, trying to persuade me to accept his proposal, till Allah opened my bosom for it and I had the same opinion as 'Umar." (Zaid bin Thabit added:) Umar was sitting with him (Abu Bakr) and was not speaking. me). "You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness): and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Messenger. Therefore, look for the Qur'an and collect it (in one manuscript). “By Allah, if he (Abu Bakr) had ordered me to shift one of the mountains (from its place) it would not have been harder for me than what he had ordered me concerning the collection of the Qur'an. I said to both of them, "How dare you do a thing which the Prophet has not done?" Abu Bakr said, "By Allah, it is (really) a good thing. So I kept on arguing with him about it till Allah opened my bosom for that which He had opened the bosoms of Abu Bakr and Umar. So I started locating Qur’anic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leaf-stalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart). (Sahih Bukhari, Kitabul Tafir, Hadith 4603)

Why Zaid (RA)?

Here are some of the reasons for charging Zaid (RA) with this endeavor.

1. His intelligence and youth which indicates vibrancy and energy. The report says; ‘You are a wise young man.’

2. His being an upright person. The report says; ‘we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness.’

3. The fact that he had been a scribe of the Prophet (PBUH). The report says; ‘you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Messenger.’ [in the first post of this series we saw narrations from him explaining the recording of revelation in the presence of the Prophet]

4. He had attended Angel Gabriel’s recitation to the Prophet during the last Ramadan. See al-Tibyan p.126. This signifies that he was well aware of the different ‘ahruf’ and about the abrogated etc.

The Challenge for Zaid; what he did and why?

As clear from Zaid’s own words this was an arduous task because it involved the Word of Allah, so he had to be very clear and careful about what he was to do.

The methodology employed was derived from the Islamic law of Witnesses i.e. Qur’an 2:282 and reason. At least two written witnesses were required for every single verse that was to be included in the first complete official Mushaf.

We read in Ibn Abi Dawud’s Al-Masahif;

Abu Bakr told Umar and Zaid, “Sit at the entrance of the Masjid. When one brings you something from the Book of Allah with two witnesses, then record it.” (Kitabul Masahif, Hadith 18)

Its narrators are authentic with a disconnection but it has many supporting evidences recorded in Suyuti’s Durr Manthur and Ahmad’s Musnad.

The aim was to bring together the best possible fool proof evidences.

1. He definitely employed his own memory.

2. Umar (RA) was with him, so surely he must have referred to what was preserved in his memory too.

3. Bilal roomed the streets of Medina and asked the Companions of the Prophet to bring the verses recorded with Prophet’s dictation. (Kitab as-Saba’ fil Qir’at li Ibn Mujahid , with research by Dr. Shauqi Da’if pub. Darul Ma’rif, Cairo , p.6)

Evidently this was done to ensure that all people do participate and nothing is left out of the Qur’an.

4. At least two written witnesses were required. Commenting on narration from Ibn Abi Dawud Hafiz Ibn Hajr says,

“The intention was to accept only what had been written in the Prophet’s presence, not relying on one’s memory alone.” (Fath al-Bari 14/193)

5. The reason why Zaid (RA) and co. sought only for the texts written in the presence of the Prophet is merely logical. As German orientalist Bergstrasser said about manuscript gradation;

a) If the original is extant, any copy scribed from this loses all significance.

b) Older copies were generally more reliable than newer ones. (Usul Naqd an-Nusus wa Nashr al-Kutub, Darul Kutab, Cairo, 1995 p. 14, 20)

Obviously any personally prepared manuscripts with the Companions could not equal the one prepared in the presence of the Prophet.

Answering a query:

Using the word of the narration from Sahih Bukhari some people bring a doubt. It’s about the statement;

‘So I started locating Qur’anic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leaf-stalks of date palms and from the memories of men.’

Al-Zarkashi responds to this;

“This statement has lead few to suppose that no one had memorized the Qur’an in its entirety during Prophet’s lifetime, and that claims of Zaid and Ubayy bin K’ab having done so are unfounded. But his is erroneous. What Zaid means in fact is that he sought out verses from scattered sources, to collate them against the recollections of the huffaz. In this way everyone participated in the collection process. No one possessing any portion of it was left out, and so one had any reason to express concern about the verses collected, nor could anyone complain that the text had been gathered from only a select few.” (Al-Burhan fi ‘Uloom al-Qur’an 1/238 pub. Darul Ahya al-Kutb al-Arabiyya, Cairo 1957)

Further Hafiz Ibn Hajr comments;

“Abu Bakr had not authorized him to record except what was already available [in written]. For this reason Zaid refrained from including the last verse of Surah Bara’a until he came upon it in written form, even though he and his fellow Companions could recall it perfectly well from memory.” (Fath al-Bari 14/193)

For a detailed response on the issue of the last two verses of Surah Bara’a [Al-Tawba], please see THIS.

Peculiarities of the collection under Abu Bakr (RA):

1. Although the verses were arranged according to instruction of the Prophet (PBUH) the Surahs were not compiled in the single copy. Infact each Surah was on a separate copy. See Mustadrak Al-Hakim, Hadith 2854. Its significance will be discussed when we discuss the compilation under Uthman (RA).

2. The seven Ahruf were preserved in it. See Manahil al-‘Irfan 1/246-247

3. It did not have any abrogated verse.

4. The purpose to produce this master Mushaf, called Al-Umm too (according to Al-Ittiqan), was to have a reference that is free from errors that could creep into personal endeavors of the same nature.

All these details not only tell us about the history of Qur’an compilation but also of the extreme care taken by the people involved with the text. If we compare the Bible’s history with this we come to know that in Bible's case it’s all mere conjecture and wishful guesses. All praise belongs to Allah who preserved His Final Word from such a fate!

Insha’Allah in the next post we shall discuss the compilation under Uthman (RA).

Works I referred to:

Other than the books referenced in the article I extracted material from the following works.

--Azmi, Muhammad Mustafa: History of the Qur’anic Text from Revelation to Compilation, (Suhail Academy Lahore, 2005)

--Usmani, Muhammad Taqi: ‘Uloom al-Qur’an, (Makteba Darul ‘Uloom Karachi, 2008)

--Gilani, Syed Manazir Ahsan: Tadwin Qur’an, (Makteba al-Bukhari Karachi, 2005)

INDEED Allah KNOWS THE BEST!

 

 

Quran Preservation & Compilation -4 (under ‘Uthman)

 

 

 

 

We have actually seen in earlier posts of this series that Qur’an was put into written record during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet –may Allah bless him- but it was scattered. During the time of Abu Bakr –may Allah be pleased with him- the circumstances demanded for making an official copy of the Qur’anic text which was done by a committee headed by Zaid bin Thabit –may Allah be pleased with him. Today we discuss the the steps taken by ‘Uthman in this regard.

The background:

The manuscripts <a href="http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2011/01/quran-preserve-compile-abu-bakr.html">prepared under Abu Bakr –may Allah be pleased with him- remained in his custody as long as he lived. After his death they were kept with ‘Umar –may Allah be pleased with him- and when he was martyred they went to Hafsa –may Allah be pleased with her- who was not only the daughter of ‘Umar but also the widow of the Holy Prophet –may Allah bless him.

During the rule of ‘Uthman Muslim conquests reached regions like Armenia and Azerbijan. So with Islam reaching many non-Arab nations the differences in recitation of the Qur’an got manifest. Following report says about it;

Anas ibn Malik reported that Hudhayfa ibn al-Yaman came to 'Uthman while the people of Syria were conquering Armenia and Azerbaijan with the people of Iraq. Hudhayfa was alarmed by the difference in their recitation. Hudhayfa said to 'Uthman, "Amir al-Mu'minin! Deliver this Community before they disagree about the Book as the Jews and Christians differed!" So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa, saying, "Send us the pages in your possession and we will copy them and then return them to you." So Hafsa sent them to 'Uthman. He ordered Zayd ibn Thabit, 'Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr, Sa'id ibn al-'As, and 'Abdu'r-Rahman ibn al-Harith ibn Hisham to transcribe copies. 'Uthman said to the group of the three Qurashis, "When you and Zayd ibn Thabit disagree about any of the Qur'an, write it in the dialect of Quraysh. It was revealed in their language." They did that. When they had copied it out, 'Uthman returned the pages to Hafsa and he sent a copy of what they had copied out to every region and commanded that every sheet or copy which had any other form of the Qur'an should be burned. (Sahih Bukhari, Hadith 4604)

The problems that caused consternation:

This was certainly perturbing. There were basically two issues that caused consternation.

1) People started reciting Qur’an in their own dialects. Even though this did not change the meanings and was tolerated earlier but with more and more diversity of nations among Muslims the problem was showing its teeth and it was now feared that in some time people will start to have startling differences in Qur’anic rendering which could potentially cause great trouble in later times.

Example of such differences can be the fact that Banu Qays read the letter ك as ش. This was referred to us “Kashkasha Qays.” Or Banu Tamim would render the word أن as عن. This was called, “’An’ana Tamim.” This was the state of affairs among Arabs; one can imagine how things could go out of control with non-Arabs coming in. The above and more on it can be found in Shaykh Tahir bin Salih al-Jaza’iri’s al-Tibyan fi Mabahith al-Quran p.52

The issue was that if someone were to produce his own manuscript considering such “anomalous” writing conventions, with the passage of time it was sure to cause a lot of fuss.

2) In certain cases slight variation was sanctioned by the Prophet –may Allah bless him- himself and there was to be no issue with it but some people make grave charges against each other because of it. e.g. in Surah 1 verse 4 one may read the word as “Maalik” with a long vowel (Kitabul Masahif, 239 Narrated by Anas) or simply “Malik” with a short vowel (Durr Manthur 1/6 cf. Ibn al-Anbari Narrated by Anas). They are more examples of this kind.

Now naturally people who had mastered any of the allowed renderings or pronounced words differently from the convention of the Quraysh, which is followed to this day, made their private manuscripts like that and taught their students likewise. This meant that without taking due steps things were to get out of control and could give way to serious issues in the times to follow.

Agreement to make one standard Mushaf:

‘Uthman –may Allah be pleased with him- raised the issue with fellow companions and asked for their intake. Once asked about his own opinion he, as reported by ‘Ali –may Allah be pleased with him- said:

“I see that we bring people to a single Mushaf so that there is neither division nor discord”. And we said, “An excellent proposal.” (Ibn Abi Dawud’s Kitab al-Masahif, Hadith 62. Classified as Sahih by Ibn Hajr in Fath al-Bari)

An independent manuscript was arranged:

As reported by Kathir bin Aflah, a twelve member committee was formed to oversee the task. (Kitab al-Masahif, Hadith 72. Classified as Sahih by Ibn Kathir)

This committee did not simply considered the Official Qur’anic Manuscripts prepared under Abu Bakr –Allah be pleased with him- infact they prepared an independent Manuscript repeating the same practice as carried out during the time of Abu Bakr –may Allah be pleased with him.

Mus’ab bin Sa’d reported: ‘Uthman delievered a sermon to the people and said: Your prophet did (just) fifteen years ago and you differ regarding Qur’an. Bring to me anything you have from the Qur’an that he heard from the Messenger of Allah –may Allah bless him. Then it started that a man would come to him with writing on pieces of board and shoulder-blades and parchments. So whoever came to him with something, he asked: “Did you hear this from the Messenger of Allah –may Allah bless him?” Then he asked, “Who is best in language among the people?” They said, “Sa’id bin al-‘As.” Then he asked, “Who is the best in writing among the people?” They said, “Zaid bin Thabit.” He said. “Then let Zaid write and Sa’id dictate.” And then he got the Musahif written and sent to various cities. And I did not see anyone objecting to it. (Kitabul Masahif, Hadith 67. Classified as Sahih by Dr. Muhibuddin Wa’iz)

Comparison with what was accomplished during the time of Abu Bakr:

So exactly same method was employed and the whole text collected again from the scattered pieces prepared in the presence of the Qur’an. This was very much like what was done during the time of Abu Bakr –may Allah be pleased with him.

The reason why ‘Uthman –may Allah be pleased with him- took all this trouble again is same as explained with reference to Orientalist Bergstrasser in the discussion about Abu Bakr’s contribution.

Similarity:

Zaid bin Thabit -may Allah be pleased with him- who was in charge of both the endeavors testified that after making independent Mushaf during the time of ‘Uthman he compared it with what was prepared during Abu Bakr’s time and found them exactly similar. He said:

“I compared the Mushaf with those manuscripts; they did not differ in anything.” (Mushkil al-Athar, Hadith 2645)

So this also serves as a testimony for the extreme care taken and robustness of the methodology that a practice was repeated twice and there was no discrepancy at all. And all praise be to Allah!

Unique Achievements:

As to the unique accomplishments of ‘Uthman –may Allah be pleased with him- consider the following points.

1. During the time of Abu Bakr Surahs were not arranged. Surah arrangement was done during ‘Uthman’s time- may Allah be pleased with them both. See Mustadrak al-Hakim Hadith 2901.

This is also supported by the fact that in Sahih Bukhari the narration from Zaid bin Thabit about the project under Abu Bakr uses the plural word “Suhuf” (Manuscripts) while in his own report about the work done under ‘Uthman, he uses the singular “Mushaf” (Manuscript) showing that during Abu Bakr’s time a manuscript was prepared for each Surah and they were not arranged as such.

2. Special attention was paid to the fact that Qur’an is written in such a way that all the authentic ways of recitation are taken care of. Dialectical marks were not put, nor were the dots this allowed multiple warranted ways recitation.

3. During the time of Abu Bakr, only one official copy was prepared. ‘Uthman made multiple copies and sent them to all provincial headquarters –may Allah be pleased with them both. According to Abu Hatim al-Sajistani in total seven manuscripts were prepared and sent one each to Makkah, Syria, Yemen, Bahrain, Basra and Kufa and one was kept at Medina. See Kitabul Masahif, Narration 94.

How the problems were solved:

We mentioned two problems that highlighted the expediency for what was achieved during ‘Uthman’s time –may Allah be pleased with him.

Solution to Problem 1:

Problem 1 was solved by ensuring that spelling convention of only the Quraysh is followed. As clear from the Hadith from Sahih Bukhari quoted above which clearly says;

'Uthman said to the group of the three Qurashis, "When you and Zayd ibn Thabit disagree about any of the Qur'an, write it in the dialect of Quraysh. It was revealed in their language."

Also note that the person appointed to dictate i.e. Sa’id bin al’As was from the Quraysh.

This point needs a clarification. The possible difference was certainly about the spelling convention and not the wording itself. Following narration proves it;

“One day they differed if it was التابوت or التابوه. Men from Quraysh said it was التابوت while Zaid said it was التابوه. This difference was brought to ‘Uthman. He said write التابوت for Qur’an was revealed in the language of the Quraysh.” (Kanzul Ummal, Hadith 4775 cf. Ibn Sa’d, Tirmidhi etc.)

This shows it was only about spelling convention and not the wording itself.

Solution to Problem 2:

Problem 2 was solved because of the writing convention as it incorporated all the valid readings. Besides with each manuscript was sent a person with sound and profound knowledge of the Sunnah ways of recitation. See History of the Qur’anic Text p.95 cf. Abdul Fattah al-Qadi’s al-Qiraat fi Nazar al-Mustashriqin

Uthman did not destroy anything:

Many people have a misconception that ‘Uthman –may Allah be pleased with him- destroyed something that was in vogue during his time and before him.

This is false for multiple reasons.

1. As we saw, Zaid bin Thabit made comparison between the manuscript made under ‘Uthman and the the ones made under Abu Bakr –may Allah be pleased with them all- and said:

“I compared the Mushaf with those manuscripts; they did not differ in anything.” (Mushkil al-Athar, Hadith 2645)

And no one has ever said that Abu Bakr destroyed anything from or about the Qur’an. And with above narration under consideration, the only reasonable conclusion is that neither did ‘Uthman –may Allah be pleased with them both.

2. Following two narrations need special attention.

‘Ali said, “Do not speak of ‘Uthman anything but good because by Allah, whatever he did concerning the Masahif he did in our presence. He asked us, ‘What do you say regarding these recitations for it has reached me that some say to the others, ‘our recitation is better than yours’ even though this takes one towards disbelief?’ We said to him, ‘what is your opinion?’ He said, ‘I see that we should make all people recognize one Mushaf then there will be no difference or discord.’ We said, ‘An excellent proposal.’” (Kitabul Masahif, Hadith 62. Classified as Sahih by Dr. Wa’iz)

Narrated Anas: People differed about the Qur’an during the time of ‘Uthman to the extent that even teachers and children had differences. This reached ‘Uthman. He said, “You deny (valid recitations) in my presence and make mistakes in that. Those away from me must be more violent in denying and making mistakes. O companions of Muhammad! Come together and write for the people a manuscript to be followed.” (al-Ittiqan 1/69)

So evidently ‘Uthman –may Allah be pleased with him- was only looking to preserve all the valid recitations and do away with mistakes being made in them (recall problems 1 & 2). If he was to destroy anything it was only something that could potentially give way to differences and deny the warranted slight variations.

(in-sha-Allah! A detailed paper explaining the idea of slight variations to follow soon)

Burning of the Manuscripts:

With above details in mind we can now easily fathom the reason as to why ‘Uthman –may Allah be pleased with him- burnt some manuscripts.

They were certainly personal manuscripts that did not incorporate within their spelling convention all of warranted multiple readings. This could lead later generations studying Qur’an from those manuscripts to maintain that only what their manuscripts read was true and they might have resorted to same denial which ‘Uthman feared.

In personal manuscripts there might have been instances where a person followed his tribal spelling convention. It was feared that if studied by someone not cognizant of the details and basis of the writing that way, it could again lead to serious problems.

So considering the above ‘Uthman –may Allah be pleased with him- decided to destroy all sources of the potential threat in the form of personal manuscripts. And in this endeavor he had the support of the companions of the Prophet.

Mus’ab bin Sa’d reported: “I saw a large number of people present when ‘Uthman burnt the manuscripts. They liked it.” He (further) said, “And not one of them opposed it.” (Kitabul Masahif, Hadith 33. Classified as Sahih by Ibn Kathir and Dr. Wa’iz)

The companions were on board:

The whole idea was not Uthman’s brainchild, nor was it imposed in a dictatorial fashion. It was a collective affair and the task was as such collectively achieved and people were taken on board.

About the Mushaf prepared we learn that, “then it was read to the Companions in the presence of ‘Uthman.” (Ibn Kathir’s Fadhail al-Qur’an 1/89)

With regards to Uthman’s endeavors to make all people follow one manuscript ‘Ali –may Allah be pleased with him- said: “By Allah, if I were in charge of the affairs, I would have done what has been done.” (Kitabul Masahif, Hadith 62. Classified as Sahih by Dr. Wa’iz)

The only person to have reservations about the endeavors of ‘Uthman was Abdullah bin Mas’ud –may Allah be pleased with them him. In-sha-Allah in the next post we discuss the issue of his reaction; reasons for it, implications and misconceptions.

Indeed Allah knows the best!

 

 

COMPARE THIS WITH BIBLICAL PRESERVATION

 

THEN YOU WILL KNOW HOW Islam IS SUPERIOR TO ANY OTHER RELGION , AND QURAN SUPERIOR TO ANY OTHER ANCIENT BOOK

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Salaam alaiykum,

 

to all my Muslim brothers & sisters we might want to desist this thread as it is Ramadan and it is easy to say something that is less than desirable. We must be on guard and remember the point of fasting, to purify the soul.

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Wa 'alaikumu as-salam wa rahmatu Allahi wa barakatuh

 

I agree with brother 'Abdullah.

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amazing recitation with beautiful call to prayer

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