Jump to content
Islamic Forum
Hathan

Things I Do Respect About Islam

Recommended Posts

Although I've made no secret of the fact that I think Islam is fundamentally and forever incompatible with Western values, and that if Muslims are here in sufficient numbers it is bound to lead to trouble, that doesn't mean that I can't see some things about Islam that are worthy of respect. The way Muslims around the world call each other brother and sister and look out for each other's interests above everyone else is certainly something that the West should do, in my opinion, rather than trying to look after the rest of the world (including Muslims) first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PropellerAds
Although I've made no secret of the fact that I think Islam is fundamentally and forever incompatible with Western values, and that if Muslims are here in sufficient numbers it is bound to lead to trouble, that doesn't mean that I can't see some things about Islam that are worthy of respect. The way Muslims around the world call each other brother and sister and look out for each other's interests above everyone else is certainly something that the West should do, in my opinion, rather than trying to look after the rest of the world (including Muslims) first.

 

How is this admirable ?! I find it obnoxious.

It's like, they don't care if someone is a good person, or if he's a close friend or a relative; if he's not a Muslim, he's not a "brother".

 

Things that I respect about Islam :

- the concept of fitra, that, as far as I understand, can be interpreted as meaning that any human can be good even if he's not a Muslim

- the anti-racism

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How is this admirable ?! I find it obnoxious.

It's like, they don't care if someone is a good person, or if he's a close friend or a relative; if he's not a Muslim, he's not a "brother".

 

Things that I respect about Islam :

- the concept of fitra, that, as far as I understand, can be interpreted as meaning that any human can be good even if he's not a Muslim

- the anti-racism

 

It's certainly obnoxious when a group that's opposed to you does it, which is why we need to do it.

 

As for those other two things, the very opposite has been the usual practice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing I respect about Islam the most is the fact that Islamic beliefs does not conflict with my scientific knowledge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The thing I respect about Islam the most is the fact that Islamic beliefs does not conflict with my scientific knowledge.

 

The evolution of species is a scientific theory, and I don't see a lot of Muslims accepting it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How is this admirable ?! I find it obnoxious.

It's like, they don't care if someone is a good person, or if he's a close friend or a relative; if he's not a Muslim, he's not a "brother".

 

Calling someone a "brother" or "sister" does not mean overlooking their wrongdoings. We care that people are good or bad. However, even if someone is a wrongdoer, that does not mean he stops being your brother. Even in the case of a male blood sibling.

 

Secondly, we care about familial relations. For example, a person who cuts off a kin has committed a major sin and a person is not permitted to give charity to strangers if his relatives are going without food. Islam is also very strict about obedience/respect to parents, which come second only to the worship of Allah according to the Qur'an.

 

Why do we call each other brothers and sisters? The prophet Muhammad said:

 

"A Muslim is the brother of a Muslim. He neither oppresses him nor humiliates him nor looks down upon him. Piety is here," and he pointed to his chest three times. "It is evil enough for a Muslim to hold his brother Muslim in contempt. All things of a Muslim are inviolable for another Muslim: his blood, his property and his honour.â€

 

Also, Hathan (if you're still around to read this), I know very well that your comment about the brotherhood thing wasn't intended to be positive. It is the very definition of a backhanded compliment (Muslims care about one another so admirably, so we should become just as selfish). You're something else.

 

Salam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see no insult in Hathan's post, implicit or otherwise. Exclusively calling members of your faith brother and sister seems harmless enough unless seen in context. If you are not a brother or sister, you are a Kafir, a second-class citizen, when there is a Muslim majority who chooses to enforce the law. It is not just a discriminatory mindset that some or many may have, it is written and enforced.

 

We in the West have worked hard at eliminating second-class citizenry and I would personally hate to see us reach the point where we would enforce discriminatory laws on those who discriminate against us. There is no escaping from the fact however that folks will often obtain the same amount respect that they choose to show others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have read and responded to enough of Hathan's posts to know that nothing he says about Islam is meant to be complimentary. Please feel free to read through his posts. Old habits die hard.

 

Secondly, you might have been able to argue that I'm reading too much into it if he had only said "I respect that Muslims call each other brothers and sisters". He didn't leave it at that. He added that he respects it because it is something westerners should learn, so that they can stop caring about the Muslim world and only care about one another. He then agreed that it's obnoxious if only Muslims do it. Excuse me, where exactly is the compliment in that?

 

We in the West have worked hard at eliminating second-class citizenry and I would personally hate to see us reach the point where we would enforce discriminatory laws on those who discriminate against us.

 

Ookay. The terms "brother" or "sister" have nothing to do with citizenship, and I have no idea why you're going off about this. And I have no idea what things you believe are denied to non-Muslims in an Islamic State, that Muslims are given freely.

 

Nonetheless, I don't even qualify as a second-class citizen in America because I was born in a different country. Many people are. If people should not be treated differently because of religion, is it fair to treat them differently because of nationality?

 

Perhaps that sort of second-class citizenry should be eliminated.

 

Salam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And I have no idea what things you believe are denied to non-Muslims in an Islamic State, that Muslims are given freely.

 

Nonetheless, I don't even qualify as a second-class citizen in America because I was born in a different country. Many people are. If people should not be treated differently because of religion, is it fair to treat them differently because of nationality?

 

You have no idea? Perhaps that is true. You have never heard that non-Muslims cannot travel to Mecca? Build a Christian Church? Preach the Bible? Different tax rates for Kafir? You have never heard of any of this? Are you serious or just take me for a fool?

 

Anyone, of any race, creed, religion or nationality is entitled to full and equal rights in the United States, whether you are a citizen, resident or an illegal alien. Expect to be escorted out if you are illegal and there are restrictions to immigration, but it would be hard to find a country that does not have similar laws. I would like to see an example of a US law that discriminates against any nationality. The closest we come to that are the laws that favor minorities, which is the same as saying they disfavor majorities, in reality white males, but that is a whole separate topic. I mention it only to point out the extent which this country has gone to prevent discrimination.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You have no idea? Perhaps that is true. You have never heard that non-Muslims cannot travel to Mecca? Build a Christian Church? Preach the Bible? Different tax rates for Kafir? You have never heard of any of this? Are you serious or just take me for a fool?

 

You misunderstood. I didn't say I have no idea if there are things Muslims can do that non-Muslims can't. I said that I have no idea what you think. You are right about the first. Makkah is a sacred land. You are wrong about the second. Islam does not prohibit the building of churches. You are right that people can't preach the Bible, but then again, Muslims can't preach anything unIslamic either. And lastly, the tax rate thing factors out differently based on many things. There are responsibilities on Muslims that non-Muslims do not share.

 

Anyone, of any race, creed, religion or nationality is entitled to full and equal rights in the United States, whether you are a citizen, resident or an illegal alien.

 

Permanent residents and citizens do not have the same rights. Permanent residents do not have:

 

1) The right to vote.

2) The right to hold public office.

3) The right to become president/vice president even after naturalization.

4) The right to have certain federal jobs or work certain positions (i.e. police officer).

5) Protection from deportation.

6) Protection when traveling abroad.

7) Guarantee of re-entering the country with ease.

8) Same treatment in certain taxes.

7) The right to certain government benefits, such as SSI for the elderly. Which is especially hard on old residents who cannot even become citizens because of language problems, memory problems such as dementia or alzheimer's, or learning disability. And not everyone gets exempted by a doctor's note.

 

My point is not to play the blame game. My point is to show you that not every country treats its inhabitants the same way. I'm fine being a second-class citizen because I didn't win the birth lottery.

 

Salam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps I should have said that there is equal protection under the law. Of course citizens have rights that non-citizens do not. Give me a break. What country can you visit on vacation and vote in their elections? You are dodging the issue. Everyone can become a citizen, no matter their nationality etc. You have shown exactly zero examples of second class citizenry in the US.

 

Of course, if you have not established residency, have not been allowed to enter the country, you are not going to gain citizenship while living elsewhere. Now if you are talking about our immigration laws being in need of reform, I would agree. That is not to say they are discriminatory.

 

Every country has immigration laws. This would not be an issue if folks were really wanting to immigrate to the good old US of A. One sees very, very few complimentary comments about the US in this forum and tons of bad mouthing. Why would someone with that type of mindset even think about coming to the US in the first place? Why would one care? To try to make the argument that since there are more Mexican immigrants than there are those from Yemen, that the US is a country that allows second class citizenry?

Edited by gill

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Perhaps I should have said that there is equal protection under the law.

 

You said non-Muslims don't have the same rights that Muslims do. I said non-citizens do not have the same rights that citizens do. I have no interest in playing a game where I respond to you, and then you change the subject 2 seconds later.

 

Secondly, even in equal protection, citizens come first. That is why if there is a legal alien and a citizen living in Venezuela and there is a natural disaster, the government makes sure that the citizen is taken to safety. As for the legal alien, you're on your own, bud.

 

What country can you visit on vacation and vote in their elections? You are dodging the issue.

 

Dodging the issue? I'm pointing out the issue here, and just because I use America as an example (since I live in it) doesn't mean I'm not speaking of all countries that base citizenry on whether or not one was born there or has gone through naturalization.

 

Everyone can become a citizen, no matter their nationality etc.

 

Everyone can become a Muslim, no matter their religion, and etc. :sl:

 

And lol, I don't even agree with what you said. Not everyone can become a citizen. Only the competent and able can become citizens. There's a fee and an exam in English. Sounds easy enough? I live in a community where most people I know are minorities. Some are not able to speak English. There have been a number of people who failed the citizenship exam and lost the $700 or so nonrefundable fee.

 

You have shown exactly zero examples of second class citizenry in the US.

 

In that case, you have shown exactly zero examples of second class citizenry in an Islamic State.

 

Every country has immigration laws. This would not be an issue if folks were really wanting to immigrate to the good old US of A. One sees very, very complimentary comments about the US in this forum and tons of bad mouthing. Why would someone with that type of mindset even think about coming to the US in the first place? Why would one care? To try to make the argument that since there are more Mexican immigrants than there are those from Yemen, that the US is a country that allows second class citizenry?

 

Another tangent. I really don't care about immigration laws or citizenship or all of that.

 

I care only that you tried to point out a flaw of an Islamic State, and I showed you the same trend in your own country. That is all.

 

Salam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You said non-Muslims don't have the same rights that Muslims do. I said non-citizens do not have the same rights that citizens do. I have no interest in playing a game where I respond to you, and then you change the subject 2 seconds later.

 

Secondly, even in equal protection, citizens come first. That is why if there is a legal alien and a citizen living in Venezuela and there is a natural disaster, the government makes sure that the citizen is taken to safety. As for the legal alien, you're on your own, bud.

Dodging the issue? I'm pointing out the issue here, and just because I use America as an example (since I live in it) doesn't mean I'm not speaking of all countries that base citizenry on whether or not one was born there or has gone through naturalization.

Everyone can become a Muslim, no matter their religion, and etc. :sl:

 

And lol, I don't even agree with what you said. Not everyone can become a citizen. Only the competent and able can become citizens. There's a fee and an exam in English. Sounds easy enough? I live in a community where most people I know are minorities. Some are not able to speak English. There have been a number of people who failed the citizenship exam and lost the $700 or so nonrefundable fee.

In that case, you have shown exactly zero examples of second class citizenry in an Islamic State.

Another tangent. I really don't care about immigration laws or citizenship or all of that.

Sorry but you are the one changing the subject. This started out comparing the rights of a Kafir in a Muslim country and a Muslim in the US. I took it for granted that we all know that citizens have rights that non-citizens do not. Fourth grade stuff.

 

Second, a US citizen living in Venezuela will be assisted by his country. A person who visited the US but in now in trouble in Venezuela presumably is a citizen of some country, he should look there for assistance. Now we maybe are into sixth grade stuff. All people can become Muslims. All people can become Christians. Religion is not the same as citizenry. Back down to maybe third grade stuff. Unreal.

 

Yes, everyone can become a citizen, but there are requirements, just as in any country. What in the world are you expecting? Rolling a demented person in a wheelchair up to a judge and get automatic free citizenship? In the land of Oz maybe. More grade school stuff. I guess it is a sign of the times, people have a right to public education through high school, but pass a test? How unfair.

 

Example number one. Freedom of travel. Non-Muslims cannot travel to Mecca. Discrimination based upon religion. Your turn.

 

The US is a country of immigrants as were my grandparents. They became citizens by passing a test, and yes they had to learn English to do so. They were proud to be Americans and did not bad mouth the country that offered them opportunity. My grandfather had to take a job in the lumber industry. It is a dangerous job even today with workers sitting inside large pieces of heavy machinery much of the time. Back then, there were no chain saws, being a lumberjack meant swinging an ax all day long, trying to make enough money to pay passage for the rest of the family.

 

To those who failed the test, you can pass this on along for me, work hard, study hard, stop whining.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although I'm not Muslim I do like the community. I have never met a Muslim that wasn't friendly. I like the culture and how devote Muslims are. I have even started to read the Qur'an.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sorry but you are the one changing the subject. This started out comparing the rights of a Kafir in a Muslim country and a Muslim in the US.

 

If you believe pointing out double standards is changing the subject, I won't dispute that. If that's how you see it, then fine.

 

A person who visited the US but in now in trouble in Venezuela presumably is a citizen of some country, he should look there for assistance.

 

And a person who is not a Muslim should not expect aid from Muslims first and foremost. He should turn to his people.

 

Secondly. A legal alien is not a "visitor". He is a permanent resident. His home is as much America as a citizen's.

 

All people can become Muslims. All people can become Christians. Religion is not the same as citizenry. Back down to maybe third grade stuff. Unreal.

 

"Religion is not the same as citizenry", he says. On what basis? "Because I was taught that in my grade school".

 

It's great that you have retained your grade school education. Now, if only the rest of us could remember what we learned in fourth grade...

 

Oh wait. Different school system.

 

My point is that you're taking your knowledge, and applying to everyone. You might think that a country is only legit if citizenship is based on nationality, but I disagree. A country is just as legit if citizenship is based on religion.

 

And think this through, my friend. You're against giving people free stuff, and yet, people who are born in the U.S. get a freebie. What test did they take? There are plenty of natural born citizens who would flunk the citizenship test if they had to take it. Be consistent, or admit that you believe natural born citizens are superior.

 

Example number one. Freedom of travel. Non-Muslims cannot travel to Mecca. Discrimination based upon religion. Your turn.

 

You mentioned this already. I responded to it.

 

To those who failed the test, you can pass this on along for me, work hard, study hard, stop whining.

 

I'll pass it along to the 70+ year old woman I used to know, who failed the exam because she's too old to learn a new language, and who lost her SSI benefits as a result, that she should stop whining and hit the books. I'm sure your thoughtful advise will help her overcome her learning disability and shoot to the 50 stars, pun intended.

 

Salam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A country is just as legit if citizenship is based on religion.

 

And think this through, my friend. You're against giving people free stuff, and yet, people who are born in the U.S. get a freebie. What test did they take? There are plenty of natural born citizens who would flunk the citizenship test if they had to take it. Be consistent, or admit that you believe natural born citizens are superior.

You mentioned this already. I responded to it.

I'll pass it along to the 70+ year old woman I used to know, who failed the exam because she's too old to learn a new language, and who lost her SSI benefits as a result, that she should stop whining and hit the books. I'm sure your thoughtful advise will help her overcome her learning disability and shoot to the 50 stars, pun intended.

Well, my friend, which country can you show up in and say I am a Muslim (or Christian) and get full rights of citizenship, the right to vote etc? You can make the argument but cannot back it up. You say I am right that non-Muslims don't have freedom to travel, but refuse to accept it as an example. Consistency is a crucial part of having a debate, but when you are merely arguing, anything is in play.

 

I feel sorry for you former acquaintance who either waited too long to get with the program or arrived here too late in life. Perhaps she can look to the country where she has citizenship. Oh right, that would be unfair, she should be supported by US taxpayers instead. The system here is just so darn unfair, I am surprised she wasn't on the first jet to her country of origin.

 

Now because I happen to have the good fortune to be born in the US I have a superiority complex? What is this, a kindergarten debate? Everyone was born somewhere and becomes a citizen without a test. It sounds like a bunch of sour grapes. Let's all get out our tiny violins. Boo hoo, I wasn't born here, boo hoo, I can't pass the test. And by the way, I don't really like you and what you stand for but I want all the rights and privileges that you have, with zero cost.

 

My guess is that you cannot even comprehend how absolutely ridiculous this line of reasoning is. The logical solution is too return to your country of origin where you would not have to put up with the ridiculous concept of testing for citizenship. (Hopefully the test includes the ability to discriminate between religion and citizenry) I am sure that your homeland will provide all the things that you continue to complain that this country does not provide. Free entry to everyone, citizenry to everyone, no need to learn the language, or take any test. Put you on the government dole simply at your request. I am sure all these benefits will be to US standards. Social security payments at the current dollar to dinar conversion rate. Education at US levels at taxpayer expense.

 

I wonder how I would be treated if I found myself in Saudi Arabia, complaining to high heaven about essentially everything Saudi, not speaking the language, arguing with all the Muslims about how great Christianity is, seeking automatic citizenship as well as demanding to be put on the dole?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, my friend, which country can you show up in and say I am a Muslim (or Christian) and get full rights of citizenship, the right to vote etc? You can make the argument but cannot back it up. You say I am right that non-Muslims don't have freedom to travel, but refuse to accept it as an example. Consistency is a crucial part of having a debate, but when you are merely arguing, anything is in play.

 

I feel sorry for you former acquaintance who either waited too long to get with the program or arrived here too late in life. Perhaps she can look to the country where she has citizenship. Oh right, that would be unfair, she should be supported by US taxpayers instead. The system here is just so darn unfair, I am surprised she wasn't on the first jet to her country of origin.

 

Now because I happen to have the good fortune to be born in the US I have a superiority complex? What is this, a kindergarten debate? Everyone was born somewhere and becomes a citizen without a test. It sounds like a bunch of sour grapes. Let's all get out our tiny violins. Boo hoo, I wasn't born here, boo hoo, I can't pass the test. And by the way, I don't really like you and what you stand for but I want all the rights and privileges that you have, with zero cost.

 

My guess is that you cannot even comprehend how absolutely ridiculous this line of reasoning is. The logical solution is too return to your country of origin where you would not have to put up with the ridiculous concept of testing for citizenship. (Hopefully the test includes the ability to discriminate between religion and citizenry) I am sure that your homeland will provide all the things that you continue to complain that this country does not provide. Free entry to everyone, citizenry to everyone, no need to learn the language, or take any test. Put you on the government dole simply at your request. I am sure all these benefits will be to US standards. Social security payments at the current dollar to dinar conversion rate. Education at US levels at taxpayer expense.

 

I wonder how I would be treated if I found myself in Saudi Arabia, complaining to high heaven about essentially everything Saudi, not speaking the language, arguing with all the Muslims about how great Christianity is, seeking automatic citizenship as well as demanding to be put on the dole?

 

Amen.

 

Rand00

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The argument you have chosen is a route that I wondered if you would take. But you have left yourself open. You missed something very obvious, which I will point out when I return home. :sl:

 

Salam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, my friend, which country can you show up in and say I am a Muslim (or Christian) and get full rights of citizenship, the right to vote etc?

 

Wasn't that your issue with an Islamic State? That Muslims receive more rights solely because of "I am a Muslim"? Are you saying that the citizenship laws of an Islamic State are not legitimate if they are based on religion, but those of your secular country are legitimate if they are based on nationality?

 

You can make the argument but cannot back it up. You say I am right that non-Muslims don't have freedom to travel, but refuse to accept it as an example. Consistency is a crucial part of having a debate, but when you are merely arguing, anything is in play.

 

Personal attacks aside, here's what I said: You misunderstood. I didn't say I have no idea if there are things Muslims can do that non-Muslims can't.

 

And also what I said: You are right about the first. Makkah is a sacred land.

 

This is admittance that there are things non-Muslims cannot do. I'm not sure if you wanted me to put it in neon colors or take out an ad in the newspaper. Refusal would be that I say it does not apply. Refusal would be that I say you're making things up. Refusal would be anything besides saying "You are right about the first".

 

Please do not accuse me of things that I never said or did.

 

I feel sorry for you former acquaintance who either waited too long to get with the program or arrived here too late in life. Perhaps she can look to the country where she has citizenship. Oh right, that would be unfair, she should be supported by US taxpayers instead. The system here is just so darn unfair, I am surprised she wasn't on the first jet to her country of origin.

 

The old "put up or get out" line. I wondered if you'd go down that road. I'll address it more in the next few lines.

 

Now because I happen to have the good fortune to be born in the US I have a superiority complex? What is this, a kindergarten debate?

 

I said: There are plenty of natural born citizens who would flunk the citizenship test if they had to take it. Be consistent, or admit that you believe natural born citizens are superior.

 

Not once did I say that you, Gill, have a superiority complex because you are a citizen. I said based on the fact that natural born citizens don't take an exam, and you said people who're going through naturalization shouldn't be given freebies, you must then believe that natural born citizens are superior. Superior in what way? Why, superior enough that they obviously don't need an examination. Superior in that they belong to the land merely by default because they were born there.

 

My guess is that you cannot even comprehend how absolutely ridiculous this line of reasoning is.

 

My guess is that you don't realize that you have lost sight of your premise, which was that an Islamic State is discriminatory, and that the western world has worked hard to remove such discrimination of second-class citizenry. When I pointed out that a secular country like yours hardly treats all of its inhabitants the same way, you responded with a variety of tough-luck statements such as:

 

Boo hoo

Let's all get out our tiny violins.

Go back home.

Stop whining.

It's ridiculous to ask for free citizenry for everyone.

You should be happy with what you're given, considering you don't support the values of our country.

Go ask your government to give you half the stuff we've done for you.

 

And so on and so forth. A lot of hostile words, there.

 

That's perfectly fine you feel that way (although it was unncessary for you to explain yourself so...indepthly). That you feel those who are not completely affiliated with a government, (who don't like what it stands for, in your own words), should not be given the same rights as those who are simply born into that country.

 

The thing you're missing is, the same argument can be used against you. That those who do not agree with what the Islamic State stands for, who follow a religion other than the one the land is established upon, should not expect the same rights as the ones who abide, soul and body, to the laws of the Islamic State. If they whine and complain, then...

 

Boo hoo

Cue the violins.

Etc, etc.

 

Salam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I subscribed to this topic yesterday just to track this interesting discussion. Great job Redeem.

 

Gill, how hypocritical ...

 

Yasnov

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The piety of some of its adherents.

 

 

May my brothers and sisters forgive me for going off the subject.

 

When other Muslims are angry for the sake of Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, it is something praiseworthy. I say this because piety I believe in our definition is taqwa. It's a hard thing to define. But geerah or jealousy due to what others say against divine scripture and such is something praiseworthy. If you are okay with some things, you wouldn't mind committing the same.

 

I am sometimes ver yproud when I see my brothers and sisters around the world defending their religion. Mockery of it is a very serious thing be it done by a Muslim. This is not like any other religion. It is protected from all sides and I am a witness to that.

Edited by Orthodox

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The evolution of species is a scientific theory, and I don't see a lot of Muslims accepting it.

There is nothing in the Islam that is against the evolution of species.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×