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Did Jesus Really Claim To Be God?

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What Jesus claimed was obvious to the Jews

Jesus, being a Jew, was totally familiar with the Jewish culture and religion.

“Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He

… said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.†(John 5:18)

“Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.

… ‘For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy,

and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.’ †(John 10:31,33)

“Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God!†Jesus said to him, “It is as you said.â€

… the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy!†(Matt. 26:63,64)

 

But, Jesus did not proclaim God’s truths clearly (He taught in parables)

“But without a parable He did not speak to them (the multitudes).

And when they were alone, He explained all things to His disciples.†(Mark 4:34)

“To you (disciples) it has been given to know the mysteries

(secret-hidden truths) of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables,

that ‘Seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’ †(Luke 8:10)

 

Jesus hinted at His equality with Father God

“I and My Father are one†(John 10:30)

“He who has seen Me has seen the Father†(John 14:9)

“… all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father†(John 5:23)

“And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory

which I had with You before the world was. … We are one†(John 17:5,22)

 

Jesus hinted that He was “I AM†(God)

God told Moses that “I AM†was His name “forever†(Exodus 3:14-15).

“… if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.†(John 8:24)

“When you lift up (crucify) the Son of Man,

then (at the resurrection) you will know that I AM …†(John 8:28)

“Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.†(John 8:58)

“… when it (His betrayal) does come to pass, you may believe that I AM.†(John 13:19)

“Now when He said to them, ‘I AM’, they drew back and fell to the ground.†(John 18:6)

“I have told you that I AM.†(John 18:8)

“Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you AM.†(John 4:26)

None of the 7 verses above have “he†after “I AM†in the Greek manuscripts.

Many of the English translations have just inserted the “he†for readability.

 

More of Jesus’ hints that He is “I AM†(God)

“I AM the bread of (eternal) life …†(John 6:35)

“I AM the light of the world …†(John 8:12)

“I AM the door of the sheep.†(John 10:7)

“I AM the good shepherd†(John 10:11)

“I AM the resurrection and the (eternal) life …†(John 11:25)

“I AM the way, the truth, and the (eternal) life …†(John 14:6)

“I AM the true vine …†(John 15:1)

“I AM the Son of God†(Matthew 27:43)

 

Jesus claimed to be the Giver of eternal life

“… a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.†(John 4:14)

“… the Son gives (eternal) life to whom He will.†(John 5:21)

“… everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you …†(John 6:27)

“And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish …†(John 10:28)

“No one comes to the Father (gets into heaven) except through Me.†(John 14:6)

“… You (Father God) have given Him (Jesus) authority over all flesh,

that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given (to) Him.†(John 17:2)

 

For people to believe in “the mysteries of the kingdom of God†(Luke 8:10),

God must reveal to them that these things are the truth.

Spiritual truth does not come through intellect, education, reasoning, etc.

God had His reasons for planning it that way.

Edited by Ameer7

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PropellerAds

Might as well add these verses to the list:

 

Matthew

 

28:18 And Jesus came to them and said, All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.

28:19 Go then, and make disciples of all the nations, giving them baptism in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:

28:20 Teaching them to keep all the rules which I have given you: and see, I am ever with you, even to the end of the world.

 

Matthew

 

22:41 Now while the Pharisees were together, Jesus put a question to them, saying,

22:42 What is your opinion of the Christ? whose son is he? They say to him, The Son of David.

22:43 He says to them, How then does David in the Spirit give him the name of Lord, saying,

22:44 The Lord said to my Lord, Be seated at my right hand, till I put under your feet all those who are against you?

22:45 If David then gives him the name of Lord, how is he his son?

22:46 And no one was able to give him an answer, and so great was their fear of him, that from that day no one put any more questions to him.

 

 

This runs counter to what God says in the Qur'an:

 

They have no protecting friend beside Him, and He maketh none to share in His government. (18:26)

 

They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things. (5:17)

 

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

 

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no Allah save the One Allah. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

 

Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him? For Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

 

The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!

 

Say: Serve ye in place of Allah that which possesseth for you neither hurt nor use? Allah it is Who is the Hearer, the Knower. (5:72-76)

 

They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One Allah. There is no Allah save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)! (9:31)

 

O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.

 

The Messiah will never scorn to be a slave unto Allah, nor will the favoured angels. Whoso scorneth His service and is proud, all such will He assemble unto Him; (4:171-172)

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This runs counter to what God says in the Qur'an:

 

They have no protecting friend beside Him, and He maketh none to share in His government. (18:26)

 

They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things. (5:17)

 

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

 

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no Allah save the One Allah. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

 

Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him? For Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

 

The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!

 

Say: Serve ye in place of Allah that which possesseth for you neither hurt nor use? Allah it is Who is the Hearer, the Knower. (5:72-76)

 

They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One Allah. There is no Allah save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)! (9:31)

 

O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.

 

The Messiah will never scorn to be a slave unto Allah, nor will the favoured angels. Whoso scorneth His service and is proud, all such will He assemble unto Him; (4:171-172)

 

i'm surprised and i must say i'm also impressed that the quran knows about trinity (three). i'm thinking aloud. as far as i know 'three' is not in torah and certainly not in the bible. its the church and man that elaborates on trinity (three). and here we have quran referring to 'three'. dare i say it knows whats going on in man's 'brain'?

 

the question now who's going to hell among christians - trinitarians, binitarians, unitarians? (i'm not touching on jews, muslims and others). :sl:

Edited by tom

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the question now who's going to hell among christians - trinitarians, binitarians, unitarians? (i'm not touching on jews, muslims and others). :sl:

 

Tritarians and binitarians will go to Hell. And even Unitarians if they say that Jesus (pbuh) is the Son of God and Lord who has been given all authority in the Heaven and the Earth. Plus those who fulfill this criteria:

 

Those who deny Allah and His messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His messengers, saying: "We believe in some but reject others": And (those who) wish to take a course midway,-

 

They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment.

 

To those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of the messengers, we shall soon give their (due) rewards: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (4:150-151)

 

Those Christians who weren't exposed to the Truth/Islam will be tested by God. He will ask them to enter Hell as a test. If they do, the fire won't harm them and they will enter Paradise. If they don't, they will be thrown into Hell.

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Tritarians and binitarians will go to Hell. And even Unitarians if they say that Jesus (pbuh) is the Son of God and Lord who has been given all authority in the Heaven and the Earth. Plus those who fulfill this criteria:

 

Those who deny Allah and His messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His messengers, saying: "We believe in some but reject others": And (those who) wish to take a course midway,-

 

They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment.

 

To those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of the messengers, we shall soon give their (due) rewards: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (4:150-151)

 

Those Christians who weren't exposed to the Truth/Islam will be tested by God. He will ask them to enter Hell as a test. If they do, the fire won't harm them and they will enter Paradise. If they don't, they will be thrown into Hell.

 

it looks like christians of 2.1 billion regardless they're unitarians, binitarians or trinitarians gonna go to hell bearing in mind majority of us are exposed to Islam via borderless world. we believe in all prophets except muhammad. the difference is binitarians/trinitarians believe jesus is god while unitarians dont. if the criteria is solely believe in muhammad as one of the prophets, then it looks like majority non muslim world population of 6.93 billion inview of this borderless world gonna rot in hell. that's gonna include the pope, lady gaga, tiger woods, brad pitt, me tom etc. am i right? :sl:

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it looks like christians of 2.1 billion regardless they're unitarians, binitarians or trinitarians gonna go to hell bearing in mind majority of us are exposed to Islam via borderless world. we believe in all prophets except muhammad. the difference is binitarians/trinitarians believe jesus is god while unitarians dont. if the criteria is solely believe in muhammad as one of the prophets, then it looks like majority non muslim world population of 6.93 billion inview of this borderless world gonna rot in hell. that's gonna include the pope, lady gaga, tiger woods, brad pitt, me tom etc. am i right? :sl:

 

I don't think the majority of the world is exposed to Islam. Just because you hear about the word "Islam" and hear that its followers are called Muslims doesn't necessarily mean that you are exposed to it, in my opinion. Though I believe that you, tom, have been exposed to it and have had ample opportunity to learn as compared to the average Joe, and I think you will agree with me. I don't know if you will be in Hell. I don't know the future and I'll let God be the Judge. I don't think that the majority of the non-Muslims has been exposed to Islam and the Truth. I don't think the majority has been called to Islam. Even Trinitarians and Binitarians won't necessarily go to Hell if they haven't exposed to the Truth and had a chance to rectify their false beliefs.

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Well, I think we in the West have been exposed to Islam, over the last 50 years and less actually, made famous by your very own Bin Laden and his ilk, by their own cunning design.

But I think this this has got rather off topic, since the start of this post, not the intention of it's creator I'm sure.

 

Jesus has certainly not been the ony one to claim 'I am God' and so on.

To my knowledge Hallaj was disemboweled for saying the words 'Ayn al Haq' ( I am the truth). He was a Sufi martyr. There are others, I know but I cannot name them.

There iis a taboo against saying such things, since time immemorial, Heresy, Saciligiousnous. Things people think that God said are taboo. This is one of the reasons atheists dislike religion.

The 'State' , 'Authority', very often religiously ordained, or so they liked to think! No, we can see freedom of thought now, isn't that right?

 

To a person of knowlege, to say 'I am the truth, the way, God' etc', is simply a mental state of mind.

The Lord Krisna said similar things in the Simrad Bhagivatum, five thousand years ago, but no-one wanted to take him to the sword or worse so far as I know.

 

Bless,

 

Shirt

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I don't think the majority of the world is exposed to Islam. Just because you hear about the word "Islam" and hear that its followers are called Muslims doesn't necessarily mean that you are exposed to it, in my opinion. Though I believe that you, tom, have been exposed to it and have had ample opportunity to learn as compared to the average Joe, and I think you will agree with me. I don't know if you will be in Hell. I don't know the future and I'll let God be the Judge. I don't think that the majority of the non-Muslims has been exposed to Islam and the Truth. I don't think the majority has been called to Islam. Even Trinitarians and Binitarians won't necessarily go to Hell if they haven't exposed to the Truth and had a chance to rectify their false beliefs.

 

perhaps majority of the world are not exposed to Islam in the real sense of the word. what we have are news on how muslims interact among themselves and with non muslims. among issues - israeli palestinian conflict, 911, suicide bombers who seem to kill at random, al qaeda, hamas, civil war which involve muslims (?), arab uprising, muslim leaders who are guilty of human rights (?) etc. and we've anti Islam, hatred sites, misinform sites etc. and we have world leaders like bush, blair who lied inorder to win their case for war in iraq and afghanistan and we've obama who assassinated unarmed 911 mastermind suspect bin laden etc.

 

perhaps non muslims should be proactive in wanna know the real truth about muslims and Islam rather than having preconceived ideas what they're all about.

 

perhaps i'm more exposed than them via this forum and the net.

 

and you're right in saying its all in god's hand whether me and majority non muslims gonna rot in hell or be forgiven. nonetheless one gotta bear in mind more often we all - unitarians, trinitarians, muslims, buddhists, aethists etc - are steadfast in our beliefs and believe others gonna go to hell and not us. come doomsday then we gonna know who gonna cry their eyes out. :sl:

Edited by tom

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Well, I think we in the West have been exposed to Islam, over the last 50 years and less actually, made famous by your very own Bin Laden and his ilk, by their own cunning design.

But I think this this has got rather off topic, since the start of this post, not the intention of it's creator I'm sure.

 

Jesus has certainly not been the ony one to claim 'I am God' and so on.

To my knowledge Hallaj was disemboweled for saying the words 'Ayn al Haq' ( I am the truth). He was a Sufi martyr. There are others, I know but I cannot name them.

There iis a taboo against saying such things, since time immemorial, Heresy, Saciligiousnous. Things people think that God said are taboo. This is one of the reasons atheists dislike religion.

The 'State' , 'Authority', very often religiously ordained, or so they liked to think! No, we can see freedom of thought now, isn't that right?

 

To a person of knowlege, to say 'I am the truth, the way, God' etc', is simply a mental state of mind.

The Lord Krisna said similar things in the Simrad Bhagivatum, five thousand years ago, but no-one wanted to take him to the sword or worse so far as I know.

 

its somewhat off topic because the creator dont seem to wanna respond to pertinent questions. whether jesus is god/trinity are in 2 other threads as stated below.

 

and jesus NEVER said he's god per se. more often he would say "my father". sure trinitarians gonna say due to 3 persons in 1 god, then god son jesus has the right to say "god father" whenever he wanna to. that defeats the principle of ONE god when this ONE god gotta manifest as foetus then baby in his creation mary and later murdered by his creation jews and romans inorder to save his creation man from his creation satan. see? :sl:

 

IS JESUS GOD?

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=734411.html&"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=734411.html&[/url]

 

CHRISTIANITY SIMPLIFIED

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What Jesus claimed was obvious to the Jews

Jesus, being a Jew, was totally familiar with the Jewish culture and religion.

“Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He

… said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.†(John 5:18)

“Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.

… ‘For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy,

and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.’ †(John 10:31,33)

“Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God!†Jesus said to him, “It is as you said.â€

… the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy!†(Matt. 26:63,64)

 

But, Jesus did not proclaim God’s truths clearly (He taught in parables)

“But without a parable He did not speak to them (the multitudes).

And when they were alone, He explained all things to His disciples.†(Mark 4:34)

“To you (disciples) it has been given to know the mysteries

(secret-hidden truths) of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables,

that ‘Seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’ †(Luke 8:10)

 

Jesus hinted at His equality with Father God

“I and My Father are one†(John 10:30)

“He who has seen Me has seen the Father†(John 14:9)

“… all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father†(John 5:23)

“And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory

which I had with You before the world was. … We are one†(John 17:5,22)

 

Jesus hinted that He was “I AM†(God)

God told Moses that “I AM†was His name “forever†(Exodus 3:14-15).

“… if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.†(John 8:24)

“When you lift up (crucify) the Son of Man,

then (at the resurrection) you will know that I AM …†(John 8:28)

“Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.†(John 8:58)

“… when it (His betrayal) does come to pass, you may believe that I AM.†(John 13:19)

“Now when He said to them, ‘I AM’, they drew back and fell to the ground.†(John 18:6)

“I have told you that I AM.†(John 18:8)

“Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you AM.†(John 4:26)

None of the 7 verses above have “he†after “I AM†in the Greek manuscripts.

Many of the English translations have just inserted the “he†for readability.

 

More of Jesus’ hints that He is “I AM†(God)

“I AM the bread of (eternal) life …†(John 6:35)

“I AM the light of the world …†(John 8:12)

“I AM the door of the sheep.†(John 10:7)

“I AM the good shepherd†(John 10:11)

“I AM the resurrection and the (eternal) life …†(John 11:25)

“I AM the way, the truth, and the (eternal) life …†(John 14:6)

“I AM the true vine …†(John 15:1)

“I AM the Son of God†(Matthew 27:43)

 

Jesus claimed to be the Giver of eternal life

“… a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.†(John 4:14)

“… the Son gives (eternal) life to whom He will.†(John 5:21)

“… everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you …†(John 6:27)

“And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish …†(John 10:28)

“No one comes to the Father (gets into heaven) except through Me.†(John 14:6)

“… You (Father God) have given Him (Jesus) authority over all flesh,

that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given (to) Him.†(John 17:2)

 

For people to believe in “the mysteries of the kingdom of God†(Luke 8:10),

God must reveal to them that these things are the truth.

Spiritual truth does not come through intellect, education, reasoning, etc.

God had His reasons for planning it that way.

 

not good enough dude. what you've pasted are HINTS not DECLARATION. jesus HINTED hes god right? if he's truly god why cant he say outright that he's god and trinity is what christianity is all about? at the end of the day he's gonna be crucified. hence he shouldnt shy away from declaration the truth if thats truly the truth that hes one of 3 persons in one triune god whos out to save his creation man from his creation satan. :sl:

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this' what i've from CHRISTIANITY.ABOUT(contact admin if its a beneficial link). trinity is at the bottom of the list and the explanation is not convincing. as usual trinity is in the form of innuendoes, hints, implied etc. :sl:

 

These 20 Bible facts about God will give you insight into the nature and character of God.

 

God is eternal.

(Deuteronomy 33:27; Jeremiah 10:10; Psalm 90:2)

 

God is infinite.

(1 Kings 8:22-27; Jeremiah 23:24; Psalm 102:25-27; Revelation 22:13)

 

God is self-sufficient and self-existent.

(Exodus 3:13-14; Psalm 50:10-12; Colossians 1:16)

 

God is omnipresent (present everywhere).

(Psalm 139:7-12)

 

God is omnipotent (all powerful).

(Genesis 18:14; Luke 18:27; Revelation 19:6)

 

God is omniscient (all knowing).

(Psalm 139:2-6; Isaiah 40:13-14)

 

God is unchanging or immutable.

(Psalm 102:25-27; Hebrews 1:10-12; 13:8)

 

God is sovereign.

(2 Samuel 7:22; Isaiah 46:9-11)

 

God is wise.

(Proverbs 3:19; Romans 16:26-27; 1 Timothy 1:17)

 

God is holy.

(Leviticus 19:2; 1 Peter 1:15)

 

God is righteous and just.

(Deuteronomy 32:4; Psalm 11:7; Psalm 119:137)

 

God is faithful.

(Deuteronomy 7:9; Psalm 89:1-8)

 

God is true and truth.

(Psalm 31:5; John 14:6; John 17:3; Titus 1:1-2)

 

God is good.

(Psalm 25:8; Psalm 34:8; Mark 10:18)

 

God is merciful.

(Deuteronomy 4:31; Psalm 103:8-17; Daniel 9:9; Hebrews 2:17)

 

God is gracious.

(Exodus 34:6; Psalm 103:8; 1 Peter 5:10)

 

God is love.

(John 3:16; Romans 5:8; 1 John 4:8)

 

God is spirit.

(John 4:24)

 

God is light.

(James 1:17; 1 John 1:5)

 

God is triune or trinity.

(Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14)

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not good enough dude.

what you've pasted are HINTS not DECLARATION. jesus HINTED hes god right? if he's truly god why cant he say outright that he's god and trinity is what christianity is all about? at the end of the day he's gonna be crucified. hence he shouldnt shy away from declaration the truth if thats truly the truth that hes one of 3 persons in one triune god whos out to save his creation man from his creation satan.

Can you read, dude? See the original post.

Jesus declared Himself outright enough for the Jews ... see section 1.

Jesus did not declare Himself totally outright to everyone ... see section 2.

etc.

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What Jesus claimed was obvious to the Jews

Jesus, being a Jew, was totally familiar with the Jewish culture and religion.

“Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He

… said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.†(John 5:18)

 

Where does it say as a quote from Jesus - that he said he was equal with God?

 

I have quotes that nullify Jesus saying he is God.

 

John 14:28: My Father is greater than I...

John 5:30: I can of myself do nothing...

Mark 13:32: 32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Be on guard! Be alert[e]! You do not know when that time will come. 34 It’s like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with their assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.

 

Does this sound like Jesus saying he is equal to God the Father? How do your verses override these verses I have given as proof that Jesus is equal with God? It's straight forward. These verses I give nullify Jesus was God - they tell the reader he was a subordinate. Like I said, where does Jesus say he was God? Where does he say worship me explicitly? (I know - look to the parables right? Ill get on to that)

 

“Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.

… ‘For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy,

and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.’ †(John 10:31,33)

“Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God!†Jesus said to him, “It is as you said.â€

… the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy!†(Matt. 26:63,64)

If you read all the verses where Jesus is speaking, you will see he always refers himself to the Son of Man. Mark 14:62 “I am,†said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.†He never calls himself Son of God. It is only other people who call him that. (Such as christians)

 

But, Jesus did not proclaim God’s truths clearly (He taught in parables)

“But without a parable He did not speak to them (the multitudes).

And when they were alone, He explained all things to His disciples.†(Mark 4:34)

“To you (disciples) it has been given to know the mysteries

(secret-hidden truths) of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables,

that ‘Seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’ †(Luke 8:10)

Why would salvation, the most important message, to be obtained from this life, be illicit? When explicitly God says, " And God spoke all these words:

 

“I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

 

“You shall have no other gods before[a] me." (Exodus 20:1-3)

 

God has been explicit on the aspect of how to attain salvation from the beginning of time. He is saying, 'Worship Me! I am your God.' Why would he now abruptly change his style of salvation? Now he has to beat around the bush to get his message across? Okay lets say you still believe Jesus is God. God's word is everlasting correct? "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." (Luke 21:33) So how come when God made it clear from the beginning explicitly to worship him and only him as something everlasting, changes his style to illicitly saying, ' I am the truth and light, no one comes through the father except through me,' through Jesus? That is not explicit. Even Moses could say ' I am the truth and light, no one comes through the father except through me.' You know why he can say that? Because He (Moses) had favor in the eyes of God so if you wanted to be close to God, Moses was your man. Moses was the man who would guide you to the Father. He was the truth. And he was the light. That would be an explicit way of saying Moses is just a messenger. How is that saying explicitly that he is God? Same goes for Jesus. How does ' I am the truth and light, no one comes through the father except through me,' clearly say, 'I am God. Worship me'? Where does he explicitly say he is God? God said this before Jesus' time explicitly ('I am God, worship me') - his word was supposed to be everlasting. Now his word has changed to being illicit?

Jesus hinted at His equality with Father God

“I and My Father are one†(John 10:30)

“He who has seen Me has seen the Father†(John 14:9)

 

"And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form" John 5:37

 

So you say whoever has seen Jesus has seen the Father. Why in this verse he is saying, 'You who see me - has not seen the Father'?

 

“… all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father†(John 5:23)

“And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory

which I had with You before the world was. … We are one†(John 17:5,22)

 

Jesus hinted that He was “I AM†(God)

God told Moses that “I AM†was His name “forever†(Exodus 3:14-15).

“… if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.†(John 8:24)

“When you lift up (crucify) the Son of Man,

then (at the resurrection) you will know that I AM …†(John 8:28)

“Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.†(John 8:58)

“… when it (His betrayal) does come to pass, you may believe that I AM.†(John 13:19)

“Now when He said to them, ‘I AM’, they drew back and fell to the ground.†(John 18:6)

“I have told you that I AM.†(John 18:8)

“Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you AM.†(John 4:26)

None of the 7 verses above have “he†after “I AM†in the Greek manuscripts.

Many of the English translations have just inserted the “he†for readability.

 

 

More of Jesus’ hints that He is “I AM†(God)

“I AM the bread of (eternal) life …†(John 6:35)

“I AM the light of the world …†(John 8:12)

“I AM the door of the sheep.†(John 10:7)

“I AM the good shepherd†(John 10:11)

“I AM the resurrection and the (eternal) life …†(John 11:25)

“I AM the way, the truth, and the (eternal) life …†(John 14:6)

“I AM the true vine …†(John 15:1)

“I AM the Son of God†(Matthew 27:43)

 

So what. King David can say, 'I AM David' Does that make him God? I can say, 'I AM Tonny.' Does that make me God?

Jesus claimed to be the Giver of eternal life

“… a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.†(John 4:14)

“… the Son gives (eternal) life to whom He will.†(John 5:21)

 

"Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. “Abba,[f] Father,†he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."†(Mark 14:35,36)

 

Does this sound like Jesus is doing his own will? Why does he fall face down on the ground to pray to the Father? Why does he ask for his Father's will be done and not his own?

 

“… everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you …†(John 6:27)

“And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish …†(John 10:28)

“No one comes to the Father (gets into heaven) except through Me.†(John 14:6)

“… You (Father God) have given Him (Jesus) authority over all flesh,

that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given (to) Him.†(John 17:2)

 

For people to believe in “the mysteries of the kingdom of God†(Luke 8:10),

God must reveal to them that these things are the truth.

Spiritual truth does not come through intellect, education, reasoning, etc.

God had His reasons for planning it that way.

 

 

So basically, people think Jesus was God from some few verses that are put in context that way. As we see, there are many verses that nullify the divinity of Jesus as God. What do you get from +1 + -1?? Do you get 1? Or do you get 0? The verses I provide cancel out what you just said to prove Jesus is God. So if they are cancelled out, that's it - its cancelled out. These verses that refute Jesus is God are coming from your own bible. And the message of Salvation - the most important message of life - now beats around the bush of what it really has to say? God who is so great and promises to keep his word as everlasting - now changes his words and has to retreat from saying, 'Worship me! I am God!' to beating around the bush and telling parables?

Edited by tonnyj

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tonnyj ...

This is an excellent post with much thought behind it.

I have already answered many of your concerns in the thread

"Christianity Simplified" in Refuting Non-Muslims, so may we begin there?

Edited by Ameer7

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This you posted is about "Did Jesus Really Claim To Be God?"

 

I have answered with my side of the argument . I dont know what you mean by "Christianity Simplified" I thought this was about "Did Jesus Really Claim To Be God?" Are you trying to make me answer something that is not related to what you asked and provided?

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Can you read, dude? See the original post.

Jesus declared Himself outright enough for the Jews ... see section 1.

Jesus did not declare Himself totally outright to everyone ... see section 2.

etc.

 

dont intent to repeat rebuttal to your posts since its done by mr TONNYJ and threads below. compare them with yours and see which one is consistent to shema's ONE god. :sl:

 

IS JESUS GOD?

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=734411.html&"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=734411.html&[/url]

 

JESUS CHRIST

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=344968.html&"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=344968.html&[/url]

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mr TONNYJ

 

so you've made the move. salute. you're the man. :sl:

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:sl: what a privilege! I am just discovering these posts you have linked. I will get back to u soon :sl:

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there's a saying in the quran which says something like - you with your religion and me with mine. peace. :sl:

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now now dont be like that. We gotta be open minded right??? I was christian before once upon a time u know. Im sure we can come to terms :sl: lol

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now now dont be like that. We gotta be open minded right??? I was christian before once upon a time u know. Im sure we can come to terms :sl: lol

 

indeed we gotta be openminded and come to terms if we wanna survive in a world of multi religions, multi races etc. we uphold the 10 commandments. yet i sense a widening gap between muslims and christians. perhaps the former give priority to their religion while the latter dont. more often we're born christians not devout. having gay priests is awfully demoralising. god destroyed sodom and gomorrah coz of their homosex activities. :sl:

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mr AMEER7

 

come in quick otherwise me gonna derail this thread. :sl:

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Yes. You are right on Sodom and Gomorrah. It is sad to see things starting to turn upside down. Now you got gay rights being recognized as second to nature. Music industry is getting away feeding kids and people crap that deals with rebellion being number 1 priority - and its getting worse. I open up a local newspaper magazine and to my surprise, it has pictures of gay men kissing and men in underwear all buff to show off their muscles - getting the hype up that homosexuality is okay on a everyday basis to look at and acknowledge. I mean what do you do with so much crap coming out left and right and it never seems to stop? Yeah I think its sad. But there are even more problems that are global. I guess just stay educated and have a clear path of where your going. No one should live blindly with the veil covered over their heads. But still I wonder, what would it be like if things were supposed to be perfect. Everyone being truthful, no misgiving, no grief, no shame, everyone greeting each other on a daily basis like its nothing. We all live for something similar to this, but yet, its far beyond our comprehension of what perfect life is, so I guess we'll never really know until the end. But still, alot of stuff out there has to deal with religion. It seems to be the at the heart of everything, right? So we got 1 life. Gotta do it right somehow. Dont worry, I'm still going to read your posts and reply of what I think of it. But in the meantime, since its late, I'll check it out thoroughly tomorrow.

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it looks like christians of 2.1 billion regardless they're unitarians, binitarians or trinitarians gonna go to hell bearing in mind majority of us are exposed to Islam via borderless world. we believe in all prophets except muhammad. the difference is binitarians/trinitarians believe jesus is god while unitarians dont. if the criteria is solely believe in muhammad as one of the prophets, then it looks like majority non muslim world population of 6.93 billion inview of this borderless world gonna rot in hell. that's gonna include the pope, lady gaga, tiger woods, brad pitt lol this is good, me tom etc. am i right? :sl:

 

Lol. Lady Gaga. Honestly I think that chick is Shaytan. The music industry is filled with them. Movie stars too - man it seems like its everywhere. (Dont worry, I'm not one of those paranoid freaks, or am I?) I dont know about the other people who gonna rot in hell, but I must say that God has a plan. Im pretty sure he's got that part figured out. I mean - the Islamic way of looking at non-believers able to enter paradise - God asks the person to enter Hellfire right? To see if the person would have obeyed God if it is true he/she believes in God at that moment. I mean this idea makes sense. Much more so than the trinity. :sl: So I dont have too much doubt about Christians, Jews, Buddhists, and atheists - I'm sure they will all have a chance at salvation if they were confronted by God on their day of resurrection. Still doesn't mean we all get a free pass like Trinitarians, to commit all the sin, because hey - we are all saved right?

 

Anyways Tom-

I tried to read through the links you have sent me. I can see you are not a trinitarian. Im guessing you are a Morman?

Edited by tonnyj

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Yes. You are right on Sodom and Gomorrah. It is sad to see things starting to turn upside down. Now you got gay rights being recognized as second to nature. Music industry is getting away feeding kids and people crap that deals with rebellion being number 1 priority - and its getting worse. I open up a local newspaper magazine and to my surprise, it has pictures of gay men kissing and men in underwear all buff to show off their muscles - getting the hype up that homosexuality is okay on a everyday basis to look at and acknowledge. I mean what do you do with so much crap coming out left and right and it never seems to stop? Yeah I think its sad. But there are even more problems that are global. I guess just stay educated and have a clear path of where your going. No one should live blindly with the veil covered over their heads. But still I wonder, what would it be like if things were supposed to be perfect. Everyone being truthful, no misgiving, no grief, no shame, everyone greeting each other on a daily basis like its nothing. We all live for something similar to this, but yet, its far beyond our comprehension of what perfect life is, so I guess we'll never really know until the end. But still, alot of stuff out there has to deal with religion. It seems to be the at the heart of everything, right? So we got 1 life. Gotta do it right somehow. Dont worry, I'm still going to read your posts and reply of what I think of it. But in the meantime, since its late, I'll check it out thoroughly tomorrow.

 

you're being philosophical . . . . . and you're dead right . . . . one life and gotta do it right . . . . right for muslims may not be right for christians and vice versa. :sl:

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