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Ameer7

Did Jesus Really Claim To Be God?

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Lol. Lady Gaga. Honestly I think that chick is Shaytan. The music industry is filled with them. Movie stars too - man it seems like its everywhere. (Dont worry, I'm not one of those paranoid freaks, or am I?)

 

see? not that easy to drop things pronto for the sake of religion. thats why i'm in awe over those who made the move. and nope you're no freak . . . . . or prig. hehe

 

I dont know about the other people who gonna rot in hell, but I must say that God has a plan. Im pretty sure he's got that part figured out. I mean - the Islamic way of looking at non-believers able to enter paradise - God asks the person to enter Hellfire right? To see if the person would have obeyed God if it is true he/she believes in God at that moment. I mean this idea makes sense. Much more so than the trinity. :sl: So I dont have too much doubt about Christians, Jews, Buddhists, and atheists - I'm sure they will all have a chance at salvation if they were confronted by God on their day of resurrection. Still doesn't mean we all get a free pass like Trinitarians, to commit all the sin, because hey - we are all saved right?

 

thats the best statement i've read so far from a muslim and a new muslim at that. you've made my day.

 

to me trinity is one confused state of mind.

 

Anyways Tom-

I tried to read through the links you have sent me. I can see you are not a trinitarian. Im guessing you are a Morman?

 

i'm unitarian. :sl:

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see? not that easy to drop things pronto for the sake of religion. thats why i'm in awe over those who made the move. and nope you're no freak . . . . . or prig. hehe

 

By 'dropping things pronto for religion' - do you mean condemning things such as the music industry for the sake of religion?

 

thats the best statement i've read so far from a muslim and a new muslim at that. you've made my day.

 

Well I hope that's as close to the truth as possible. :sl:

to me trinity is one confused state of mind.

i'm unitarian. :sl:

 

I talked to a pastor about the trinity recently. I never knew this theory was valid for her (she was presbyter) - but I asked for the trinity - how is it possible God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy spirit do not mix and yet do net separate. To her somehow it all makes sense.

 

So Mormans are not unitarians? Didn't Mormonism come from Arianism? Didn't Arianism believe in one God? So if you are unitarian, what kind of denomination do you belong to? Is it just plainly called unitarian? or something else?

Edited by tonnyj

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tonnyj

So I dont have too much doubt about Christians, Jews, Buddhists, and atheists - I'm sure they will all have a chance at salvation if they were confronted by God on their day of resurrection. Still doesn't mean we all get a free pass like Trinitarians, to commit all the sin, because hey - we are all saved right?

 

I've been lurking on this one. But this statment here just strikes a cord with me. Now before I open my mouth to far and insert a foot I am not looking to bicker. But I do not subscribe to a "free pass" to commit all the sin I want. I am a Trinitarian. A Roman Catholic. I can not think of a Trinitarian who does subscribe to this though. I do not subscribe to once saved always saved though either. I would put it like this though. I will stand my judgment in front of God and I could end up in heaven, hell, or purgatory (a place of perging or cleaning). As nothing unclean shall enter heaven.

 

So any Christian that tells you they can commit all the sin they want because they are saved is lost not following God's word. If one is saved they will bear good fruit.

 

Sorry for the cherry picking of a section your comment tonnyj. I just had to say something about it I guess.

 

God's peace and blessings

 

workingman

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Jesus claimed to be one of the three persons of God. God is one. God creates our reality in the form of three natures (persons). There is a disagreement on this among Christian religions. Some believe that God comes in three modes. This is modalism. Some believe that He is three persons of the Trinity. Others believe that Jesus was a man only and God is one. This is Unitarian belief.

 

God is more than just one aspect of creation. Anyone can see that a typical person is who they are at work, who they are at home and who they are in private. This does not change the fact that it is still one person.

 

What follows is my own view from that of science and physics. Although science is a poor description of God, science can be used to see into God's creation dimly.

 

God is Light or the Father (1st person of the trinity). Jesus is Word (Logos) form John 1. "In the Beginning was the Word" The Holy Spirit is the third person. I believe this to be God's Holy Consciousness.

 

If we look at this from the standpoint of physics and human nature, we see the three persons of God in each man. Light is both a particle and a wave in physics. If God created the universe, the we must assume that what we see a the properties of physics is a description of how He accomplished this task. Light is both a particle and a wave. John 1 calls Christ, the 2nd person of the trinity, the Word. A word is a wave. Logos goes further to describe what this Word represents to creation. It is the wave, or word, that God used to speak creation into existence. This word of God that created the universe is far more complicated than any of us could imagine. Jesus is this Word according to the Christian trinity.

 

I am suggesting here that light and wave can be seen as a reflection of God creating matter. What is matter missing to be alive? Consciousness.

 

If we add consciousness to matter it becomes living. Man is made up of both matter and consciousness. This is Light, both particle and wave. God is also consciousness (the Great I AM). As you can see so far, one God speaks His Living Word into existence to create the universe for man. He then gives man consciousness.

 

Man can be seen as a person. To God, He sees man as particle, wave and His Holy Consciousness, as well as a person. To man, we see God in the material world as all three as well. We see Him from the perspective of our Particle, Wave and Consciousness. These are our simple definitions to something that is cosmically complicated.

 

Jesus is seen as the incarnation of God in all three persons in the material world. The Holy Spirit of man is what He comes to bring to man as His own sacrifice for us; His payment for our sins. This is grace. We did not deserve this. He did it for love. This is the love that Christ speaks about. He loved us first and died a mans death to set us free. This is the Christian perspective.

 

The bits about physics are my perspective. Take it for what it is worth. Jesus is your messenger as well. The message is the same. Love God and love your fellow man. You cannot love one without the other.

 

Hate never dispelled hate. Only love dispels hate.

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By 'dropping things pronto for religion' - do you mean condemning things such as the music industry for the sake of religion?

 

'condemning' is a harsh word. perhaps 'ignore' is more palatable, it sounds gracious.

 

I talked to a pastor about the trinity recently. I never knew this theory was valid for her (she was presbyter) - but I asked for the trinity - how is it possible God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy spirit do not mix and yet do net separate. To her somehow it all makes sense.

 

depends on one's belief. for trinitarians, trinity makes sense but not for non trinitarians.

 

So Mormans are not unitarians? Didn't Mormonism come from Arianism? Didn't Arianism believe in one God? So if you are unitarian, what kind of denomination do you belong to? Is it just plainly called unitarian? or something else?

 

mormons are unitarians in some aspects while arianism does believe in ONE god in certain aspect. suffice it to say i'm unitarian, a non performing one. that being said i'm no atheist either. :sl:

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I've been lurking on this one. But this statment here just strikes a cord with me. Now before I open my mouth to far and insert a foot I am not looking to bicker. But I do not subscribe to a "free pass" to commit all the sin I want. I am a Trinitarian. A Roman Catholic. I can not think of a Trinitarian who does subscribe to this though. I do not subscribe to once saved always saved though either. I would put it like this though. I will stand my judgment in front of God and I could end up in heaven, hell, or purgatory (a place of perging or cleaning). As nothing unclean shall enter heaven.

 

indeed no christian be he trinitarian, binitarian or unitarian wanna believe hitler gonna go to heaven after causing 2ww and murdering millions including 6 millions jews and causing holocaust. right? :sl:

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Jesus claimed to be one of the three persons of God. God is one. God creates our reality in the form of three natures (persons). There is a disagreement on this among Christian religions. Some believe that God comes in three modes. This is modalism. Some believe that He is three persons of the Trinity. Others believe that Jesus was a man only and God is one. This is Unitarian belief.

 

where in the bible that jesus claimed to be god?

 

and where in the bible that god creates our reality in form of 3 persons?

 

what irksome is trinitarians claim jesus, father and holyspirit have EXACTLY same nature when they dont. :sl:

Edited by tom

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indeed no christian be he trinitarian, binitarian or unitarian wanna believe hitler gonna go to heaven after causing 2ww and murdering millions including 6 millions jews and causing holocaust. right? :sl:

 

That is not for me to say. That is God's job. I can not know the state of another man's soul.

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Tom

 

where in the bible that jesus claimed to be god?

 

Well lets start with Matt. 4:7 and Luke 4:12 Matt 21:3, Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44, John 6:38, John 8:12, John 5:18. These are but a few verses where Jesus Christ calls himself God.

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If we add consciousness to matter it becomes living. Man is made up of both matter and consciousness. This is Light, both particle and wave. God is also consciousness (the Great I AM). As you can see so far, one God speaks His Living Word into existence to create the universe for man. He then gives man consciousness.

 

Man can be seen as a person. To God, He sees man as particle, wave and His Holy Consciousness, as well as a person. To man, we see God in the material world as all three as well. We see Him from the perspective of our Particle, Wave and Consciousness. These are our simple definitions to something that is cosmically complicated.

 

Ok you lost me at the beginning when your talking about your scientific view of the trinity. That whole thing you talked about is just as confusing as the trinity itself. But I gotta ask, why do you use scientific analogy to describe the trinity? Doesn't Genesis have serious problems that are in conflict with science today? Yet you use science to prove your points? Why use something that is against you as something for you?

Edited by tonnyj

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Well lets start with Matt. 4:7 and Luke 4:12 Matt 21:3, Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44, John 6:38, John 8:12, John 5:18. These are but a few verses where Jesus Christ calls himself God.

 

"Where does it say as a quote from Jesus - that he said he was equal with God?

 

I have quotes that nullify Jesus saying he is God.

 

John 14:28: My Father is greater than I...

John 5:30: I can of myself do nothing...

Mark 13:32: 32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Be on guard! Be alert[e]! You do not know when that time will come. 34 It’s like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with their assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.

 

Does this sound like Jesus saying he is equal to God the Father? How do your verses override these verses I have given as proof that Jesus is equal with God? It's straight forward. These verses I give nullify Jesus was God - they tell the reader he was a subordinate. Like I said, where does Jesus say he was God? Where does he say worship me explicitly? (I know - look to the parables right? Ill get on to that)"

 

You should read the earlier posts. :sl:

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"Where does it say as a quote from Jesus - that he said he was equal with God?

 

I have quotes that nullify Jesus saying he is God.

 

John 14:28: My Father is greater than I...

John 5:30: I can of myself do nothing...

Mark 13:32: 32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Be on guard! Be alert[e]! You do not know when that time will come. 34 It’s like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with their assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.

 

Does this sound like Jesus saying he is equal to God the Father? How do your verses override these verses I have given as proof that Jesus is equal with God? It's straight forward. These verses I give nullify Jesus was God - they tell the reader he was a subordinate. Like I said, where does Jesus say he was God? Where does he say worship me explicitly? (I know - look to the parables right? Ill get on to that)"

 

You should read the earlier posts. :sl:

 

You need to properly understand how the trinity is viewed. Please read the link below as it goes into far greater depth than I can on this forum. Then get back to me. Yes the artical is lengthy but a good read.

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yet######/cathen/15047a.htm"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yet######/cathen/15047a.htm[/url]

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Before I even attempt to read this I just want to say - understanding the concept of God shouldn't have to be explained through a huge article. I can understand that God is God making sense naturally, but a huge article of complex ideas to explain him? Yeah sure, maybe God is so complex, the image of him is beyond our comprehension. So we will never know who he truly is or what he looks like until we die. Then maybe on that day our minds will be boggled. So until that time we should be able to explain him as easily and clearly as possible. So a simplified version of God in Islam is Allah. Simple, the one and true God. The simple version of God in trinatarians is God 3 persons in 1, 1 God with 3 persons. Something that does not mix yet it does not separate. Since this makes no sense we have to read a huge article to understand something that is supposed to be simplified?

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No matter how many times I post this, people just don't get it.

But, since it's a bad habit of mine, here it comes again ...

 

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My waysâ€, says the Lord.

“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways,

and My thoughts (higher) than your thoughts.†(Isaiah 55:8-9)

 

Tonnyj,

Did you find a lot of answers (in the other thread) to the questions you asked me?

If not, there still there a-waitin' for you. They haven't run away anywhere.

Edited by Ameer7

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Before I even attempt to read this I just want to say - understanding the concept of God shouldn't have to be explained through a huge article. I can understand that God is God making sense naturally, but a huge article of complex ideas to explain him? Yeah sure, maybe God is so complex, the image of him is beyond our comprehension. So we will never know who he truly is or what he looks like until we die. Then maybe on that day our minds will be boggled. So until that time we should be able to explain him as easily and clearly as possible. So a simplified version of God in Islam is Allah. Simple, the one and true God. The simple version of God in trinatarians is God 3 persons in 1, 1 God with 3 persons. Something that does not mix yet it does not separate. Since this makes no sense we have to read a huge article to understand something that is supposed to be simplified?

 

 

It does not have to be complex. On that note you seem to need a deeper explanation than what I am willing to write. This is why it is called faith.

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Tonnyj,

Did you find a lot of answers (in the other thread) to the questions you asked me?

If not, there still there a-waitin' for you. They haven't run away anywhere.

 

Sure here I already find a problem. Here is from the link you posted. Workingman quoting off Mrs. J.

 

Jesus Christ him self clames to be God.

 

Luke 4:12 And Jesus answering, said to him: It is said: Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Matt 4:7 Jesus said to him: It is written again: Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

 

Why is this important. This occured durring Satans temptation of Christ in the desert durring his fasting.

 

Now is Jesus God? Well you seem to say so by referring to Luke 4:12 and Matthew 4:7. Okay that's settled. So what is God? Can God be tempted? According to the verses you give tells us God cannot be tempted.

 

Why not add to the foundation of this idea, lets look at James 1:13, "When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.†For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone" Okay we have an understanding here. We can conclude that Satan cannot tempt God. This is pretty explicitly saying God's nature is not of temptation - he does not tempt nor does anyone tempt Him.

 

Now lets look at Matthew 4:1, "Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be[using large font size is not allowed] tempted by the devil."

 

Huh? Jesus went to be tempted by Satan? Isn't Jesus supposed to be God? Isn't God unable to be tempted? How can Satan tempt God? If God is unable to be tempted according to your verses - how is it that Jesus was? If Jesus was tempted as the verse says - then he is not God. There must be someone else Matthew 4:7, Luke 4:12, and James 1:13 must be referring to. Because clearly Jesus went to be what? To be tempted by Satan. Not might be, or should of been, but was TO BE tempted. A definition TO BE is to take place; happen; occur (Dictionary(contact admin if its a beneficial link)). Temptation was taking place, happening, and occuring. So I say again - If it took place that Jesus was being tempted, he is not God. I dont need to look further in the post.

 

It does not have to be complex. On that note you seem to need a deeper explanation than what I am willing to write. This is why it is called faith.

 

Yes faith - I know this word. Not very complicated. It means 'willing to believe as something true regardless of the 5 senses to prove its true.' It would be 'blind belief' yes? See thats not so complicated to describe or understand. I didn't have to write a whole article to depict the whole meaning of this. Its straightforward plain and simple. So should our understanding be of God. With your whole analogy, things just get complicated.

Edited by tonnyj

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No matter how many times I post this, people just don't get it.

But, since it's a bad habit of mine, here it comes again ...

 

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My waysâ€, says the Lord.

“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways,

and My thoughts (higher) than your thoughts.†(Isaiah 55:8-9)

 

Tonnyj,

Did you find a lot of answers (in the other thread) to the questions you asked me?

If not, there still there a-waitin' for you. They haven't run away anywhere.

 

you may not realise it but the answers given dont seem to focus on the questions. for instance when i asked why jesus' not omnipotent when he and god the father supposedly are of the EXACT same nature? your instant reply should be "because . . . . ". but you didnt did you? :sl:

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Tonnyj ... Is this all you have so far?

 

Who knows if God can be tempted or not? Ask Him. He does have free will like us, right?

Do I know everything? Am I God?

 

Jesus was a human called/named “Jesusâ€. So, we’re talking here about the man Jesus.

The reason for the Holy Spirit being Jesus’ Father was to produce this sinless man.

If Joseph had been Jesus’ father, Jesus would have had man’s sin nature.

This proves that the sin nature is passed down through the male sperm,

and it did not come through Mary (via her blood, or?).

 

Now, this sinless man had to prove to everyone that he always overcame temptation.

And because he did live a sinless life, he was qualified to be your substitute and die for your sins.

 

God's Plan-A was about producing a sinless man who could (and did) live “without sinâ€.

God’s Plan-B was for Jesus to also be “fully Godâ€. And I don’t know the reason for Plan-B ...

except it sure makes everything more impressive that it actually was God who died for your sins.

Edited by Ameer7

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Tonnyj ... Is this all you have so far?

 

Who knows if God can be tempted or not? Ask Him. He does have free will like us, right?

Do I know everything? Am I God?

 

It says in your own scriptures that God cannot be tempted. James 1:13, "When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.†For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone" I’m not making this up, it’s in your bible. How can you say ‘who knows’?

 

Now, this sinless man had to prove to everyone that he always overcame temptation.

And because he did live a sinless life, he was qualified to be your substitute and die for your sins.

 

God's Plan-A was about producing a sinless man who could (and did) live “without sinâ€.

God’s Plan-B was for Jesus to also be “fully Godâ€. And I don’t know the reason for Plan-B ...

except it sure makes everything more impressive that it actually was God who died for your sins.

 

So it was a person who was fully man (according to God's Plan A) and a person who was fully God (according to God’s Plan B) that was sacrificed? Does this make sense to you? How can both man and God be sacrificed at the same time? Even you dont know how this is possible (God’s Plan-B was for Jesus to also be “fully Godâ€. And I don’t know the reason for Plan-B ...) If God was sacrificed – are you saying humans are capable of killing God? If just a man was sacrificed, then no God was sacrificed – just only a man.

 

So when the OT talks about humans offering sacrifices to God for forgiveness – would humans been saved had they refused? So now when God came to die for us – did he come to offer us a sacrifice? Wasn’t it the humans role to offer God a sacrifice? Wasn’t it the responsibility of human actions to find pleasure from the sight of God? Now God has to find pleasure in our eyes by making a sacrifice to us? Now God has to make a sacrifice to us to please us because he thinks we are gods? Is that why he offers a sacrifice to us?

Edited by tonnyj

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Tonnyj ... Is this all you have so far?

 

Who knows if God can be tempted or not? Ask Him. He does have free will like us, right?

Do I know everything? Am I God?

 

James 1:13, "When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.†For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone"

 

Why do you avoid the meaning of the verse and say 'who knows if God can be tempted or not? James 1:13 has a pretty explicit meaning as to tell you God cannot be tempted. Why do you seem to say that the only verses apply (Luke 4:12, Matthew 4;7) is valid as Jesus being God, but you seem to brush off James 1:13? So when it comes to Luke 4:12, Matthew 4:7 - 'o! we (christians) all know what this is talking about'. But for James 1:13 - its; 'o no! we (christians) dont know what your talking about'?

Edited by tonnyj

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Tonnyj,

 

You’re correct about James 1:13 … God cannot be tempted by evil.

But, what about the "fully man" part of Jesus? Man can be tempted.

 

Jesus was “fully man†… as man was before A&E’s fall.

Everyone after that had the sin nature … except Jesus …

who did not inherit it from Joseph (because of the Holy Spirit).

 

In one sense, Jesus couldn’t be totally “fully Godâ€

because He also was “fully man†who can be killed.

 

God didn’t need to be sacrificed … just a sinless man needed to be sacrificed.

The Triune God wanted to experience the totality of being a human.

That’s the one reason Jesus became “fully Godâ€.

But, apparently there are other reasons as well (I’m struggling with these).

 

Re: sacrifices …

the OT is the Old Covenant, and there are differences in the New Covenant.

In the OT, they offered the most unblemished animals for sacrifice.

Later, God said He was weary of all of this killing of bulls and goats.

The New Covenant used an absolutely PERFECT Sacrifice.

Not only was it a human without sin, but “fully God†as well.

Unbelieveable.

 

The Sacrifice was not to us.

The Sacrifice was to God … for us (i.e. on our behalf).

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Jesus was “fully man†… as man was before A&E’s fall.

Everyone after that had the sin nature … except Jesus …

who did not inherit it from Joseph (because of the Holy Spirit).

 

In one sense, Jesus couldn’t be totally “fully Godâ€

because He also was “fully man†who can be killed.

 

God didn’t need to be sacrificed … just a sinless man needed to be sacrificed.

The Triune God wanted to experience the totality of being a human.

That’s the one reason Jesus became “fully Godâ€.

But, apparently there are other reasons as well (I’m struggling with these).

 

What are you trying to say? In one statement you say Jesus is not 'fully God', then in another, you say he is 'fully God'. Does this seem like a game to you? How can you tell me what God's nature is when:

1) your statements are in contradiction

2) you dont even know how his nature works

 

The Sacrifice was not to us.

The Sacrifice was to God … for us (i.e. on our behalf).

 

Why does God need to make a sacrifice to himself? He made the universe and now he needs to make a sacrifice to himself? God doesn't need anything. Why should he need his own sacrifice?

Edited by tonnyj

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What are you trying to say? In one statement you say Jesus is not 'fully God',

then in another, you say he is 'fully God'. Does this seem like a game to you?

How can you tell me what God's nature is when:

1) your statements are in contradiction

2) you dont even know how his nature works

Why does God need to make a sacrifice to himself?

He made the universe and now he needs to make a sacrifice to himself?

God doesn't need anything. Why should he need his own sacrifice?

A couple of weeks ago, I said I was struggling with "fully God" because Jesus

demonstrated His total dependence on the Father and on the Holy Spirit.

Since then, this has been cleared up! I thought I passed on the info here.

 

God the Son (name/title only) incarnated into a human called Jesus Christ.

This Jesus Christ was "fully man" and "fully God".

It was the perfect sinless "fully man" part of Messiah who was the sacrifice.

Because a sinless human HAD TO BE the sacrifice.

I'm still struggling with WHY he also needed to be "fully God".

 

No one ever said that God (e.g. the Triune God) was totally understandable.

Sorry that you expect me to be some kind of genius.

I'm a-doin' my best, pal.

.

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Ok let me help you understand this concept of 'tri-une' God a little better.

 

I'm reading a book by a catholic theologian Hans Kung. He is a Swiss catholic priest (used to be). He was ordained after his studies of theology and philosophy at the Pontifical Gregorian University of Rome. In 1962 he was appointed by the Pope John XXIII, to serve as an expert theologian advisor to members of the Second Vatican Council.

 

So basically this guy is no joke. If your going to understand the bible and its history - then this is the guy. You can search up his bio in wiki.

 

Anyways, I'm reading his book, "Islam, Past, Present, & Future." In it he praises Islam for many aspects but is also critical in some other aspects. In this book he talks about Christianity to compare the religions. Here is what he says:

Any Christian theologian who does not just speculate uncritically on the basis of the Hellenistic development and of doctrine in the fourth and fifth centuries but who follows Protestant and Catholic theologians in thinking in the light of the New Testament will notice that, while there are many triadic formulae in the New Testament, there is not a word about the 'unity' of these three extremely different entities, that is, a unity on the same divine level. At one point in the First Letter of John there was a clause which was in the context of saying about the Spirit, the water and the blood, and went on to speak of the Father, the word and the spirit as being one. However, historical criticism has shown this statement to be a forgery which arose in North Africa or Spain in the third or fourth century and it did not help the Roman Inquisition at all by trying to defend the authenticity of the sentence at the beginning of the twentieth century, it would have done better to adopt the results of historical criticism. However, out of fear that it would have to correct much more, it has not been able to bring itself to do this, even now. (pg 509)

 

In the Bible they will quickly find that in Jewish Christianity, indeed throughout the New Testament, whereas there is belief in God the Father, Jesus the Son and in God's Holy spirit, there is no doctrine of a one God in three persons (modes of being), no doctrine of a 'tri-une God', a trinity. (pg509) (also quoted in, Hans Kung - Christianity: Essence, History, Future - Continuum, 2001 - Page 97).

 

So a man who knows alot about Christianity and Catholicism makes these statements. Now I see why the trinity is so confusing. Because there is no such thing. Maybe in another way of spirituality there is such thing as a Father, a son, and a holy spirit, but not on the same level of divinity. (as quoted from above) My guess is that the Father is one God and only One. The sons are everyone who follow Him. And the spirit is his guidance. But the trinity? That's a whole other thing.

 

I've done research on Christianity from people like Bart Erhman, Dr. Maurice Bucaille, and I have watched many lectures of debates between Christians and Muslims. I used to be a Christian - one who believed in the Bible. As I heard lectures from Muslims - I felt they were wrong and that Christianity was correct. (This is when I was naive and ignorant of Islam and its teachings) Slowly everything I ever believed in, was being knocked off the totem pole one section of belief after another. The 'truth shall set you free' as they say.

 

Now one of my major problems was the trinity. Something I once believed was now something I was starting to become truly aware of and as well critical of - the trinity mentioned in the Gospel of John as a forgery. 'Why would people say this I thought. Surely it's not true.' Over and over again people confirmed it as a forgery in lectures I watched and books I read. Now after reading from this man Hans Kung - to reaffirm this fact - left no doubt in my mind the trinity is a forgery. All I know is, I am never going to follow Christianity again. Even if all the religions of the world were untrue. There is too many confusing ideologies and theologies from Christianity. And now I see the reason why. It's built on many things that aren't true. So I'll stick with Islam for the time being. (Still a new convert) I know I got much to learn while doing my research to be 100% convinced that the Quran is truly the word of God, and that Islam, is truly the 'right way'. But I'm glad I'm doing as much as I can to be as close to the truth as much as possible. I'm glad I found many truths to the Quran and Islam on the way thus far.

Edited by tonnyj

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Tonnyj,

 

No so-called "expert" theologian impresses me one iota.

Because intellect, education, logic, etc. have absolutely nothing to do with spiritual truth from God.

These fleshly things are the total opposite to spiritual things.

 

I've been working on this in my spare time (not finished yet) ...

 

First, it’s not necessary for the 3 "Persons" of the Triune God to all be in the same verse.

In seeing these passages in their true light, one needs to be aware of the many

other Scripture verses that reveal who these 3 "Persons" are.

I.E. Every passage cannot go into a detailed explanation of who the 3 "Persons" are,

and everything needs to be understood in the context of the entire Bible.

 

Isaiah 48:12-16

“Listen to Me, O Jacob, and israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.

Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched

out the heavens … I, even I, have spoken; yes, I have called him, I have brought him,

and his way will prosper.â€

“Come near to Me, hear this: I (Jesus) have not spoken in secret from the beginning;

from the time that it was, I was there, and now the Lord GOD and His Spirit have sent Me.â€

Note: Father God promises to come to His people in the form of His Servant Jesus

 

Matthew 3:16-17

“When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold,

the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove

and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying,

‘his is My beloved Son, in whom I (the Father) am well pleased.’ â€

 

Matthew 28:19

“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them

in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit …â€

 

Luke 1:35

“The Holy Spirit will come upon you (Jesus), and the power of the Highest will overshadow you;

therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.â€

 

John 14:26

“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My (Jesus) name,

He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

 

John 15:26

“But when the Helper comes, whom I (Jesus) shall send to you from the Father,

the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.â€

 

Acts 2:38-39

“Then Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of

Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off,

as many as the Lord our God (the Father) will call.’ â€

 

Ephesians 4:4-6

“There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;

one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all,

and through all, and in you all.â€

Edited by Ameer7

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