Jump to content
Islamic Forum
Ameer7

Did Jesus Really Claim To Be God?

Recommended Posts

Ameer7

 

This is sad. Firstly I'd like to say an expert theologian who came from the Vatican is much more knowledgeable than the average layman or Protestant theologian. I'm sure he doesn't have credit for also being a priest and professor at many universities because he doesn't know his way around manuscripts and the bible. Also who do you turn for the higher knowledge of the bible? Do you turn to yourself or experts? Is there Protestant theologians existing particularly for no reason at all? I'm sure your well informed and have manuscripts at your disposal to make your sound judgements. Let alone you can't even figure out how the nature of the trinity works.

 

Secondly, this is not the only person I've heard say this so he is not my only reference.

 

Some people just wont get it. Your scripts dont have a word that defines the unity of the Father, Jesus, and holy spirit as one. There is no word connecting all three on a divine level. So if there are differences, then there is no trinity!

 

In Psalm 2:7, an accession ritual, the Messiah king is explicitly addressed as 'son': 'You are my son; today I have begotten you.' In this verse, 'begotten' is a synonym for enthronement, exaltation. Neither in the Hebrew Bible nor in the New Testament is there any trace of a physical - sexual begetting as in the case of the Egyptian God-king and the Hellenistic sons of god, nor of a metaphysical begetting along the lines of the later Hellenistic ontological christology. ( "Islam, Past, Present, & Future" pg 493)

 

What did first Judaism and then the New Testament mean by 'son of God'? Regardless of how this was later defined by Hellenistic councils with Hellenistic terms, in the New Testament what is unquestionably meant is not the descent but an appointment to a position of justice and power in the Hebrew Old Testament sense. This is not a physical divine sonship, of the kind that occurs in Greek myths, which is often supposed and rightly rejected by Jews and Muslims, but and election and authentication of Jesus by God, completely in keeping with the Hebrew Bible, in which sometimes the people of israel can collectively be call 'son of God'. ("Islam, Past, Present, & Future" pg 493)

 

The begetting is not classified as God having a Son even metaphysically! (which exactly what this whole trinity thing is!) Nowhere in the Hebrew Bible or the New Testament is this present. So that means Jesus is just man. There was no metaphysical begetting nor physical divine sonship. You seem to just ignore facts and try to build your faith on straw sticks.

 

As a pious Jew, Jesus himself preached a strict monotheism. He never called himself God, on the contrary: 'Why do you call me good? No one is good save God alone.' According to the same Gospel, Jesus a answers a scribe's question about what is the highest commandment with israel's confession of faith, the 'shema israel': The greatest commandment is: 'Hear, israel, the Lord your God is one God.' There is no indication in the New Testament that Jesus understood himself as a second person in God and was present at the creation of the world. In the New Testament, God himself ('ho theos', 'the God', 'God') is always the one God and Father - not the Son. ( pg 492. Also check out Born before All Time. The Dispute over Christ's Origin, London and New York 1992 by K.-J. Kuschel.)

 

Okay what does this mean? That Jesus never existed in the beginning nor is he the 2nd person in God. But like I said, you must have many manuscripts at your disposal as well as being well educated in Catholicism and Christianity. I'm sure we can all turn to you for knowledge even though you dont know how to illustrate how God's nature works through the trinity.

Edited by tonnyj

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PropellerAds

Tonnyj,

We have verses such as these:

John 10:30 “I and My Father are one.â€

John 10:38 “the Father is in Me, and I in Him.â€

John 14:9 “He who has seen Me has seen the Fatherâ€

John 17:22 “We are oneâ€

But, no one is forcing you to believe them.

Edited by Ameer7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As you say. I'm just putting out the facts. People can choose to believe or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tonnyj,

We have verses such as these:

John 10:30 “I and My Father are one.â€

John 10:38 “the Father is in Me, and I in Him.â€

John 14:9 “He who has seen Me has seen the Fatherâ€

John 17:22 “We are oneâ€

But, no one is forcing you to believe them.

 

err i've yet to read the rest of the posts. been busy. anyhow i'm into this post.

 

so when jesus said 'i and father are one', trinitarians gonna say thats huge proof jesus is god. swell.

my question is if jesus is god why's he not omnipotent?

trinitarians gonna say 'cause he's dual character.

then i'm gonna say if jesus has dual character then god the father and god the holy spirit gotta have dual character too since trinitarians/church said these 3 have EXACTLY same character, that jesus = god the father = holy spirit.

this is where trinitarians/church remain silent. why the silence? they dont seem to have no answer to why jesus has dual character when the other two dont and despite the 3 supposedly of EXACTLY same character. right?

 

over to you mr AMEER7 and other trinitarians. :sl:

Edited by tom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As you say. I'm just putting out the facts. People can choose to believe or not.

 

cant keep mum dude. me gotta say we gotta choose to believe with commonsense. god give us brain to think and not dependant on blind faith. :sl:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To the unitarians how about we just leave you to deal with your own heresy. You claim to beleave the Holy Bible. As it is said by Jesus Christ him self about him self in St. Matthew 10:33 [33] But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven.

 

God will be the final judge in the end.

 

In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
cant keep mum dude. me gotta say we gotta choose to believe with commonsense. god give us brain to think and not dependant on blind faith. :sl:

 

Ay~

 

Cept what do you mean by "cant keep mum dude." ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” [John 20:17]

Now if Jesus was God then God is saying He has a father and He has a God hmmm. There are many contradictions in the bible relating to this topic no wonder it is debated over and over. And when there are contradictions you can't help but question the truth.

 

Islam has a simple answer to this question:

Say He is Allah One and only

The Eternal and The Absolute

He begetteth not nor is He begotten (i.e. he doesn't have children or parents]

And there is none like unto Him [surah Al Ikhlas]

Islam makes it simple: God is God. Jesus is a prophet who came with a message from God. Jesus is not God.

Edited by Lost_In_Paradise

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’†[John 20:17]

Now if Jesus was God then God is saying He has a father and He has a God hmmm. There are many contradictions in the bible relating to this topic no wonder it is debated over and over. And when there are contradictions you can't help but question the truth.

 

Islam has a simple answer to this question:

Say He is Allah One and only

The Eternal and The Absolute

He begetteth not nor is He begotten (i.e. he doesn't have children or parents]

And there is none like unto Him [surah Al Ikhlas]

Islam makes it simple: God is God. Jesus is a prophet who came with a message from God. Jesus is not God.

Now before I even adress above do you understand the dual nature of Christ? Not if you believe it but understand it. Islam flat out disregards historical fact about Jesus Christ. So I would not expect it to get Christs dual nature correct.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is a link to a video on the Trinity.

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=2KSx6nhUJvo"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=2KSx6nhUJvo[/url]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In a sense to say "I am God" needs to be taken in context (as does everything, because everything is relative). I see it as a thing probably spoken in a state of religious ecstasy or ardant fervour.

 

It is a state that one enters into: Lord Krisna in the Bhagvad Gita says "I am your Lord. I am the supreme being". It is a symbolic dicourse that Krisna has with his closest companion Arjuna. Like Rumi and Shamsi Tabriz.

It resembles the relationship between servant and master or Lord and servant.

 

Essentially it is a statement which says: I AM ONE WITH GOD. THERE IS NO SEPERATION BETWEEN HIM AND ME. It must be quite obvious to an observer that whoever says this is actually not GOD Himself because God would be actually inconceivable in His entirety. As a Muslim would surely say: 'He has His differrent aspects, manifested through the divine names' and therefore no-one can claim to BE GOD at any one time. But this is only in intellectual theory not in a situation where one is preaching - say.

 

What state must Mohammed have been in when the Koran was passed through him? I havn't ever seen this discussed anywhere - is it taboo? Why should it be - the facts speak for themselves, as it were.

 

There always appears to be this problem with our conceptualisation of God. And one can undestand why this is, since we must be talking about a being who is omniscient and omnipotent. And actually those are probably the nearest verbs we can get to understanding what exactly HE is. At least to begin with.

 

Thanks,

 

Ron

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In a sense to say "I am God" needs to be taken in context (as does everything, because everything is relative). I see it as a thing probably spoken in a state of religious ecstasy or ardant fervour.

 

No Prophet of Allah swt would ever claim "I am God"; no matter what the state of their "Religous ecstasy" or ardent fervor.

 

Its not taboo to discuss what state Prophet Mohammed pbuh was when the revelation was revealed to him. Its written in the hadiths and also written in books about the Prophet pbuh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Now before I even adress above do you understand the dual nature of Christ? Not if you believe it but understand it. Islam flat out disregards historical fact about Jesus Christ. So I would not expect it to get Christs dual nature correct.

I was a Christian before I reverted to Islam so yes I do get it but no I don't believe it..Islam has clearer answers for me in relation to this topic.

 

~Qul huwa Allah hu ahad.~

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In a sense to say "I am God" needs to be taken in context (as does everything, because everything is relative). I see it as a thing probably spoken in a state of religious ecstasy or ardant fervour.

 

Yes, this is possible. Sometimes when a person is extremely happy he can utter something that is completly blasphemous but he wouldn't be considered a blashphemer. The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) told a hadith which talks of a man who was in the desert when he lost his camel. The situation became very desperate - obvious because he is in the middle of a rough desert - but then he found his lost camel. He became so happy that he exclaimed out of pure joy, "O Allah, I am your Lord and you are my slave", although he meant to say the opposite obviously.

 

But for a person to claim publicly that he is God or write about it is pure blasphemy.

 

Though Prophets (pbut) wouldn't say such things. They are protected from that.

 

What state must Mohammed have been in when the Koran was passed through him? I havn't ever seen this discussed anywhere - is it taboo? Why should it be - the facts speak for themselves, as it were.

 

The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) received the Qur'an in the folllowing ways. Sometimes the Angel (pbuh) came to him as a man and spoke to him. Sometimes he saw the Angel (pbuh) in its real form (this happened twice only). Usually the Prophet (pbuh) received the Qur'an in the following manner: he received it like the ringing of a bell - a painful ringing. His companions (ra) relate that on an extremely cold day when the Revelation descended his brow became streaming with sweat, his face became red and after it was over it looked like he was relieved of a burden. One Companion (ra) describes that the Prophet's (pbuh) thigh was once on his thigh when he received revalation and that his thigh became extremely heavy. The Prophet (pbuh) said that this was the hardest way for him. In short, the last manner of receiving revelation was not pleasent but painful.

 

No, it is not taboo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes, this is possible. Sometimes when a person is extremely happy he can utter something that is completly blasphemous but he wouldn't be considered a blashphemer. The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) told a hadith which talks of a man who was in the desert when he lost his camel. The situation became very desperate - obvious because he is in the middle of a rough desert - but then he found his lost camel. He became so happy that he exclaimed out of pure joy, "O Allah, I am your Lord and you are my slave", although he meant to say the opposite obviously.

 

But for a person to claim publicly that he is God or write about it is pure blasphemy.

 

Though Prophets (pbut) wouldn't say such things. They are protected from that.

The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) received the Qur'an in the folllowing ways. Sometimes the Angel (pbuh) came to him as a man and spoke to him. Sometimes he saw the Angel (pbuh) in its real form (this happened twice only). Usually the Prophet (pbuh) received the Qur'an in the following manner: he received it like the ringing of a bell - a painful ringing. His companions (ra) relate that on an extremely cold day when the Revelation descended his brow became streaming with sweat, his face became red and after it was over it looked like he was relieved of a burden. One Companion (ra) describes that the Prophet's (pbuh) thigh was once on his thigh when he received revalation and that his thigh became extremely heavy. The Prophet (pbuh) said that this was the hardest way for him. In short, the last manner of receiving revelation was not pleasent but painful.

 

No, it is not taboo.

 

 

Thanks for your efforts.

 

But really, this is all just heresay, isn't it? Let's be realistic here. you don't know anymore than I do.

 

Quite a few people have been tortured and killed over the years for so called 'blasphemy'. By stupid and ignorant people to my mind, of every stupid and ignorant religion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I was a Christian before I reverted to Islam so yes I do get it but no I don't believe it..Islam has clearer answers for me in relation to this topic.

 

~Qul huwa Allah hu ahad.~

 

Well I guess I'm glad you get it. May God guide you.

 

peace

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In a sense to say "I am God" needs to be taken in context (as does everything, because everything is relative). I see it as a thing probably spoken in a state of religious ecstasy or ardant fervour.

 

It is a state that one enters into: Lord Krisna in the Bhagvad Gita says "I am your Lord. I am the supreme being". It is a symbolic dicourse that Krisna has with his closest companion Arjuna. Like Rumi and Shamsi Tabriz.

It resembles the relationship between servant and master or Lord and servant.

 

Essentially it is a statement which says: I AM ONE WITH GOD. THERE IS NO SEPERATION BETWEEN HIM AND ME. It must be quite obvious to an observer that whoever says this is actually not GOD Himself because God would be actually inconceivable in His entirety. As a Muslim would surely say: 'He has His differrent aspects, manifested through the divine names' and therefore no-one can claim to BE GOD at any one time. But this is only in intellectual theory not in a situation where one is preaching - say.

 

What state must Mohammed have been in when the Koran was passed through him? I havn't ever seen this discussed anywhere - is it taboo? Why should it be - the facts speak for themselves, as it were.

 

There always appears to be this problem with our conceptualisation of God. And one can undestand why this is, since we must be talking about a being who is omniscient and omnipotent. And actually those are probably the nearest verbs we can get to understanding what exactly HE is. At least to begin with.

 

Thanks,

 

Ron

 

I believe that sinse we live as part of a greater consciousness, everything, evey atom, every quark, every thought, all energy exists within the consciousness of the Creator. This, to me, explains why we are all God. There is no separation. All is one. Darkness, which manifests itself as evil is a creation of God so It may know Itself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
if jesus has dual character then god the father and god the holy spirit gotta have dual character too

since trinitarians/church said these 3 have EXACTLY same character

Ar yu serioso?

When yur God, and yur a-walkin' 'round on duh earth in a human body,

duh ... I guess yu have a dual character, or a dual something.

El ditto-reeneeo, if one of the duh udder 2 did the same.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Islam has clearer answers for me in relation to this topic (the Triune Godhead).

Foist of oil ... da Trinity is not part of da gospel of Jesus Christ, i.e. He never preached it to da multitudes.

So, da Trinity is just a super-duper excuse for da peoples to reject Christianity.

 

Secund of oil ... maye yu jus dont understand ...

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My waysâ€, says the Lord.

“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways,

and My thoughts (higher) than your thoughts.†(Isaiah 55:8-9)

Duz dis mayk any sens dat dis cud be a problem for youse?

 

Thurd of all da oils ... you obviously were never born again wit da Holy Spitit IN yu, teachin' yu all tings.

Edited by Ameer7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Foist of oil ... da Trinity is not part of da gospel of Jesus Christ, i.e. He never preached it to da multitudes.

So, da Trinity is just a super-duper excuse for da peoples to reject Christianity.

 

Secund of oil ... maye yu jus dont understand ...

 

 

Thurd of all da oils ... you obviously were never born again wit da Holy Spitit IN yu, teachin' yu all tings.

 

Amazing spellings.

 

Well the trinity is not the reason I reject Christianity and i certainly do not need any excuse to reject Christianity but anyway,,.I have God in my life and I found the answers I wanted in Islam not Christianity. God is one and Jesus was a messenger. No messenger of God would claim to be God. Islam doesn't dance around it , it makes it clear.

 

Yea maybe I don't understand what you say but as it says in the quran:

Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine. [109: 1-6]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Amazing spellings.

 

Well the trinity is not the reason I reject Christianity and i certainly do not need any excuse to reject Christianity but anyway,,.I have God in my life and I found the answers I wanted in Islam not Christianity. God is one and Jesus was a messenger. No messenger of God would claim to be God. Islam doesn't dance around it , it makes it clear.

 

Yea maybe I don't understand what you say but as it says in the quran:

Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine. [109: 1-6]

Jesus was trying to teach us about our own power and divinity. He said (I paraphrase)..."These thins that I do(miracles), you shall do even greater things". We are all part of the essense of the Creator. Islam is stuck in another century and Christianity has Jesus' ultimate message wrong. Thankfully, neither religion will be around when we move into the 4th dimension.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Islam is stuck in another century

Islam is submitting ones will to God. In order to do that it doesn't matter what century you are in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
name='non muslim' date='Jul 27 2011, 09:50 AM' post='1242233']

Jesus was trying to teach us about our own power and divinity.

 

There you go thinking you are a god again. You are not.! You like the rest of us are a sinful human being.

 

Christianity has Jesus' ultimate message wrong.

 

Why is that? Because you can not do what you want how you want when you want? Give me a break. Go Back and read the whole Bible cover to cover and see what Jesus message IS. See what Jesus taught and what is required of you as His creation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well the trinity is not the reason I reject Christianity and i certainly do not need any excuse to reject Christianity

but anyway,,.I have God in my life and I found the answers I wanted in Islam not Christianity.

God is one and Jesus was a messenger. No messenger of God would claim to be God.

Islam doesn't dance around it , it makes it clear.

Yea maybe I don't understand what you say ...

Like I sayd, yu nevr wer born again.

Y yu keep talkin' Trinity again?

Try dancin yu mite like it.

If yu hav 1 question, I can due bettr wit my engleesh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×