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I'm having a hard time understanding this hadith: Hadith Al Buhkari vol. 9:57

 

Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

 

Critics say "how barbaric - someone wants to leave Islam and you kill him".

 

Although the Quran does not proscribe any earthly penalty for apostasy, the Hadith Buhkari has a whole section on it and the prescription is death. This seems really cruel to non-Muslims and I've had this thrown in my face a few times.

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As-salamu alaikum

 

An Islamic State by definition is built upon Islamic Law. When people openly become disbelievers, they are saying that which upon the state is founded and its constitution are false and they sow discord in society. If a person wants to leave Islam, he should leave the Islamic State or remain quiet about his apostasy.

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I'm having a hard time understanding this hadith: Hadith Al Buhkari vol. 9:57

 

Critics say "how barbaric - someone wants to leave Islam and you kill him".

 

Although the Quran does not proscribe any earthly penalty for apostasy, the Hadith Buhkari has a whole section on it and the prescription is death. This seems really cruel to non-Muslims and I've had this thrown in my face a few times.

salaam

dipped in jannah

the nonmuslims do debated this issue coz

they do not understand that

a person is created for ever and ever

the earthly death does not end the story

the person is forever and the person's relationship with the Creator

is forever and ever

that is why ali razi allahu anhu

(probably)

chose to burn the apostate/zandeeq(is murtad not athiest)

so the punished may have some reason for Allah's Mercy in the remaining life

of that apostate which is forever and ever

salaam

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Is it safe to say that Satan steals, kills and destroys?

 

Is it safe to say that God honors, protects and defends?

 

Who is the righteous judge of men? Us, or God?

 

The messenger of the Muslim world said to love your neighbor, even your enemy. He said to bless those who curse you. He said to turn the other cheek. How do you reconcile the message of Jesus against the judgment of others as worthy of death, destruction and the taking of their future walk on earth? Isn't there a chance they could eventually come back to faith in Allah?

 

In Luke 10, Jesus uses the example of the good Samaritan. The Samaritan and the Jew were bitter enemies. The Samaritan was the one who stopped on the road to assist the Jew. This was what Jesus said it takes to receive eternal life. LOVE.

 

I have always wondered how the Islamic world reconciles this paradox. I am always willing to change my faith from Christianity to the Muslim faith if I can be convinced with truth. Please help me out with my belief.

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Is it safe to say that Satan steals, kills and destroys?

 

Is it safe to say that God honors, protects and defends?

 

Who is the righteous judge of men? Us, or God?

 

The messenger of the Muslim world said to love your neighbor, even your enemy. He said to bless those who curse you. He said to turn the other cheek. How do you reconcile the message of Jesus against the judgment of others as worthy of death, destruction and the taking of their future walk on earth? Isn't there a chance they could eventually come back to faith in Allah?

 

In Luke 10, Jesus uses the example of the good Samaritan. The Samaritan and the Jew were bitter enemies. The Samaritan was the one who stopped on the road to assist the Jew. This was what Jesus said it takes to receive eternal life. LOVE.

 

I have always wondered how the Islamic world reconciles this paradox. I am always willing to change my faith from Christianity to the Muslim faith if I can be convinced with truth. Please help me out with my belief.

 

 

Perspective is all methinks,

 

Regards,

 

Ron

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Perspective is all methinks,

 

Regards,

 

Ron

 

Perspective is either love or hate. Jesus said that love is the key to eternal life. The flaming sword that protects the tree of life must be the opposite of the key. Hatred and bias against others seems to be a logical place to start, since Satan is the author of stealing, killing and destroying. My perspective is for protecting others. The Bible is ripe with this language about God. He honors, protects and defends.

 

But what about my questions? How do Muslims reconcile the message of Jesus in their faith? I am asking this for my own perspective. I am willing switch to the Muslim faith if truth can be shown to me on this point.

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Perspective is either love or hate. Jesus said that love is the key to eternal life. The flaming sword that protects the tree of life must be the opposite of the key. Hatred and bias against others seems to be a logical place to start, since Satan is the author of stealing, killing and destroying. My perspective is for protecting others. The Bible is ripe with this language about God. He honors, protects and defends.

 

But what about my questions? How do Muslims reconcile the message of Jesus in their faith? I am asking this for my own perspective. I am willing switch to the Muslim faith if truth can be shown to me on this point.

 

When my class did Gilgamesh in freshman year of college a while back, we had a discussion about Ishtar, the Babylonian goddess of love and war, among other things. Our professor asked, how can a single deity be the deity of love and of war? Aren't those contradictory? How can you love if you fight? How can you fight if you love?

 

The answer was simple when he explained it. Love can motivate people to war. Not love of their enemy, but love of their own people, honor, land, way of life, and religion. So a person might go to war with pure hate in their hearts, or pure love in their hearts. Both are possible.

 

This stuck with me until today because it applies to us as Muslims. Love does not mean loving the wrongdoer or transgressor. It does not mean seeking peace at the cost of everything. To love something is not just to surrender. It is also to fight. In other words, if a Muslim opposes a wrongdoer, it does not always mean that he hates him. It could very well be that he is doing it out of love - for his Creator.

 

In contribution to the topic: The law of apostacy came about as a response to an incident of treason during the time of prophet Muhammad.

 

Salam.

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But what about my questions? How do Muslims reconcile the message of Jesus in their faith? I am asking this for my own perspective. I am willing switch to the Muslim faith if truth can be shown to me on this point.

 

The thing is Jesus' (pbuh) message got hijacked by Greek-speaking people. They introcuded a lot of false things like Jesus (pbuh) being God, the Son of God and a Lord who has been given all authority in the Heavens and the Earth. This the equivalent of what happened with the Jews in Moses (pbuh) when they built the infamous golden calf; the same thing happened with Jesus (pbuh). In other words, Jesus' (pbuh) message wasn't faithfully preserved.

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I'm having a hard time understanding this hadith: Hadith Al Buhkari vol. 9:57

 

Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

 

Critics say "how barbaric - someone wants to leave Islam and you kill him".

 

Although the Quran does not proscribe any earthly penalty for apostasy, the Hadith Buhkari has a whole section on it and the prescription is death. This seems really cruel to non-Muslims and I've had this thrown in my face a few times.

DiJ, I have often read this quote, especially from Ahgmadiyyas and would like to correct it:

"the Quran does not proscribe any earthly penalty for apostasy, "[using large font size is not allowed]

 

I believe this verse is quite clear on "leaving Islam"

 

004.089

YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

PICKTHAL: They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,

SHAKIR: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

 

That seems pretty clear to me the penalty for rejecting Faith.

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...

In Luke 10, Jesus uses the example of the good Samaritan. The Samaritan and the Jew were bitter enemies. The Samaritan was the one who stopped on the road to assist the Jew. This was what Jesus said it takes to receive eternal life. LOVE.

...

 

The Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, was in Taif, a lush town of green palm trees, fruits and vegetables, about 50 miles southeast of his arid hometown Makkah. He was hoping that perhaps the people of this town would be receptive to his message, which had been rejected by most of the Makkans for over a decade.

But the people of Taif proved just as cruel and intolerant. Not only did they scorn his message of God's Oneness, they turned their youth against the Prophet. In the face of this misery, an angel was sent and presented him with an option: have the whole town be destroyed, by God's will, for such arrogance and hatefulness.

He could have done it. He could have asked that this valley of cruel people be crushed. But he didn't.

No, he told the Angel. Don't destroy the people of Taif. Instead he prayed for their salvation.

 

That is just one example of how this man, who God describes as a "mercy to mankind" (Quran 21:107) dealt with those who opposed him. It's just one of many examples in the life of a person who faced constant death threats, attempts on his life, abuse and humiliation at the hands of those threatened by his simple but profound message: there is no god but God and Muhammad is His Messenger. Peace and blessings be upon him.

 

But the people of Taif were not the only ones who tasted of this mercy. He would pray for his enemies all the time. Two of his bitterest enemies, Abu Jahl and Omar ibn al-Khattab were also the objects of his prayers.

 

The Prophet made similar Duas (supplications) for his people on a regular basis: "O God! Guide my people, for they know not," he would pray, as he and his followers were tortured, humiliated, scorned and mocked.

 

On another occasion, some Companions came to the Prophet and said: "O Messenger of God! The tribe of Daus have committed disbelief and disobeyed (your commands). Supplicate God against them!" Contrary to the people’s expectations, the Prophet said: "O Allah! Guide Daus and let them come to us." (Bukhari).

 

These are just a few glimpses of how the Prophet dealt with those who opposed him. These were people who didn't just fight his message on an intellectual level. These were individuals bent on destroying him, his family, his followers and Islam itself.

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I could easily say that the Quran was not faithfully preserved, but without any evidence presented, I would merely be making an excuse. Do you have evidence of this? Was Jesus message of faith, hope and love part of His message or is it lost completely?

 

What about the scrolls translated from Hemis Monastery? These are a record of Jesus Life before His Christian ministry. The book of St. Issa PDF . It reads the same as the Christian Gospels. Is this corrupt too? The message in this is love as well. Two separate ethnic groups verify the same message. Here is the WIKI on the story of how the document was found.

 

Is it possible that Jesus really did have a message for the Muslim faith to see? Was He trying to warn you not to slip into the lie of Satan to steal, kill and destroy?

 

"One of the skeptics who personally investigated Notovich's claim was Swami Abhedananda, who journeyed to the monastery determined to either find a copy of the Himis manuscript or to expose it as a fraud. His book of travels, entitled Kashmir O Tibetti, tells of a visit to the Himis gonpa and includes a Bengali translation of two hundred twenty-four verses essentially the same as the Notovitch text[14], confirming therefore the existence of the documents.

 

In 1925, the Russian philosopher, Nicholas Roerich, also journeyed to the monastery. He apparently saw the same documents as Notovitch and Abhedananda.

 

There is a documentary and a book on this subject, by Richard Bock, who seems to believe Notovitch's claims (book and film 1976-77, DVD released 2007).[15]

 

An extended publication regarding the years spent by Jesus in India with extremely detailed historical, facts and pictures are contained in the best seller book "Jesus lived in India" by Holger Kersten."

 

The thing is Jesus' (pbuh) message got hijacked by Greek-speaking people. They introcuded a lot of false things like Jesus (pbuh) being God, the Son of God and a Lord who has been given all authority in the Heavens and the Earth. This the equivalent of what happened with the Jews in Moses (pbuh) when they built the infamous golden calf; the same thing happened with Jesus (pbuh). In other words, Jesus' (pbuh) message wasn't faithfully preserved.

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Thank you for the reply. Is this the same attitude that Muslims of today are taking? It seems that evidence points toward the steal, kill and destroy part. I am fixated on this because this is the tactic of Satan. He seeks to divide God's people (ALL OF THEM). This has always been His tactic since the day he divided Adam and Eve from God. Jesus was your messenger. His message was love and this cannot be a mistaken translation. To suggest this goes against anything we can find or know of His life and ministry. This is the example and He has set this as the bar for salvation. Love God and love your neighbor. Especially love your family. Abraham's family is your family.

 

Does it make sense that the mistranslation, even intentional, would say to love others, even your enemy? Does it not make more sense that God's seven virtues are based on love and the seven vices are based on bias and hatred and the pride of Satan? Pride is placing ourselves above others, including God. God hates Pride? Is the garden story of pride a mistranslation?

 

To me, the Quran is most assuredly the judgment for the unbeliever. What it says about this is certain. Jesus states clearly to all of us that belief is predicated on love for others and God. Do you also see it this way? Please provide me perspective as I am still at a point of cognitive dissonance on this issue. I am here to learn about the Muslim faith for my own decisions of faith. Convince me.

 

 

The Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, was in Taif, a lush town of green palm trees, fruits and vegetables, about 50 miles southeast of his arid hometown Makkah. He was hoping that perhaps the people of this town would be receptive to his message, which had been rejected by most of the Makkans for over a decade.

But the people of Taif proved just as cruel and intolerant. Not only did they scorn his message of God's Oneness, they turned their youth against the Prophet. In the face of this misery, an angel was sent and presented him with an option: have the whole town be destroyed, by God's will, for such arrogance and hatefulness.

He could have done it. He could have asked that this valley of cruel people be crushed. But he didn't.

No, he told the Angel. Don't destroy the people of Taif. Instead he prayed for their salvation.

 

That is just one example of how this man, who God describes as a "mercy to mankind" (Quran 21:107) dealt with those who opposed him. It's just one of many examples in the life of a person who faced constant death threats, attempts on his life, abuse and humiliation at the hands of those threatened by his simple but profound message: there is no god but God and Muhammad is His Messenger. Peace and blessings be upon him.

 

But the people of Taif were not the only ones who tasted of this mercy. He would pray for his enemies all the time. Two of his bitterest enemies, Abu Jahl and Omar ibn al-Khattab were also the objects of his prayers.

 

The Prophet made similar Duas (supplications) for his people on a regular basis: "O God! Guide my people, for they know not," he would pray, as he and his followers were tortured, humiliated, scorned and mocked.

 

On another occasion, some Companions came to the Prophet and said: "O Messenger of God! The tribe of Daus have committed disbelief and disobeyed (your commands). Supplicate God against them!" Contrary to the people’s expectations, the Prophet said: "O Allah! Guide Daus and let them come to us." (Bukhari).

 

These are just a few glimpses of how the Prophet dealt with those who opposed him. These were people who didn't just fight his message on an intellectual level. These were individuals bent on destroying him, his family, his followers and Islam itself.

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:sl:

 

remain quiet about his apostasy

 

Then it is a hypocrite and as we know in Saudia Arabia not offering some pillars will get one killed. What falls under apostasy? It is not just statments, but also actions as reported by ashaba, respected brother.

 

he should leave the Islamic State
I do not think it would be that easy, especially if something about them has reached the ruler. But Allah knows best.

 

As we all know from our brother Younes, the OT preaches the same thing. It is that they changed God's laws.

Edited by Orthodox

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Is it safe to say that Satan steals, kills and destroys?

 

Is it safe to say that God honors, protects and defends?

 

Who is the righteous judge of men? Us, or God?

 

The messenger of the Muslim world said to love your neighbor, even your enemy. He said to bless those who curse you. He said to turn the other cheek. How do you reconcile the message of Jesus against the judgment of others as worthy of death, destruction and the taking of their future walk on earth? Isn't there a chance they could eventually come back to faith in Allah?

 

In Luke 10, Jesus uses the example of the good Samaritan. The Samaritan and the Jew were bitter enemies. The Samaritan was the one who stopped on the road to assist the Jew. This was what Jesus said it takes to receive eternal life. LOVE.

 

I have always wondered how the Islamic world reconciles this paradox. I am always willing to change my faith from Christianity to the Muslim faith if I can be convinced with truth. Please help me out with my belief.

 

 

this post shows lack of understanding of your own scripture, and the history of jesus pbuh.

 

firstly in the old testament, after moses pbuh was commanded to make a state based on the law of god, he was commanded to kill apostates. now jesus pbuh never got to the point of making a statehood, however in the bible jesus pbuh clearly states to his diciples that he did not come to create a new law, but to uphold the old law.

 

when muhammad S.A.W. came he did the same thing.

 

 

the are some similarities here that prove that all 3 are messengers from god. firstly they both worked in phases. firstly the believers of the tribes of isreal were oppressed by pharoh as a test from god. god has mentioned that this was a test in both the old testament, and in the Quran. after a period of time, god granted victory to the believers, and they migrated. they were commanded to follow the messenger of god (moses pbuh) and to fight against the disbelievers, and to make a state based on the law of god, much like their abrahamic ancestors did.

 

the next major prophet to come was jesus pbuh. the jews were onces again oppressed but this time it was done differently as the roman empire also used its political power to keep the foot on the "religious extremists" (see a trend?)while jewish rabbis were bought into being henchmen for the romans. jesus pbuh came to fix that. he was in the first phase that all prophets go though: to proclaim the message, and to be paitent. but however as mentioned above jesus pbuh said he came to restore the old law. much like he will do when he descends from the heavens to destroy the anti-christ and the falsehood he would have spread. however god had other plans for jesus pbuh, and reserved his place as the messiah. he left though with a prophecy, which is still in the bible, dispite its editing. in the gospel of john, jesus pbuh proclaims of another prophet to come.

 

the next prophet was muhammad S.A.W. he too followed the same pattern of prophethood. to proclaim the message and to be paitent though trials. eventually the believer were granted victory, and commanded to crate a state based on the laws of god. one of those laws was to kill the apostates.

 

and thus, it all makes sense once you know some basic history.

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No, he told the Angel. Don't destroy the people of Taif. Instead he prayed for their salvation.

That is just one example of how this man, who God describes as a "mercy to mankind" (Quran 21:107) dealt with those who opposed him. It's just one of many examples in the life of a person who faced constant death threats, attempts on his life, abuse and humiliation at the hands of those threatened by his simple but profound message: there is no god but God and Muhammad is His Messenger. Peace and blessings be upon him.

But the people of Taif were not the only ones who tasted of this mercy.

 

I do not think that you have studied the life of Muhammad in detail. The City of Taif was actually one of the last places in the Hejaz to be conquered by Muhammad's army. But Muhammad did order that the city be besieged and many people on both sides were killed in the siege. Eventually the people of Taif tried to surrender. They begged Muhammad that they be allowed to keep their temple to the Goddess Allat for a short period before becoming Muslims. Muhammad refused their pleas, he would not accept their surrender until they agreed to adopt Islam immediately and destroy their temple. Taif did finally surrender on the condition that they themselves would not have to destroy it. Muhammad agreed and sent Abu Sufyan to destroy their temple, and that is how the religion of the Goddess Allat ended in Arabia, she had been venerated their for at least 1,000 years, we know this because she is mentioned as one of the chief Deities of the Arabs by the Greek Historian Herodotus writing in the Fifth Century BC (Herodotus - Histories I:131).

 

I would provide you with links to Muslim sources on the incident, but I am new here and my account does not allow links. But if you google the following terms in quotations then you should get two seperate and well written sources on the topic:

 

"THE SIEGE OF AL-TA’IF"

 

"Destruction of the Idol al Lat"

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Saving human beings from stupidity of idol worship is indeed an act of mercy even if it looks a bit harsh at first time.

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Brothers and sisters, alsalamo alykom wa rahmat Allah

 

I like to show up the whole picture about such subject, and to differentiate between the theoretical and practical Appling of it, and compare it too to other ruling systems;

 

1st Theoretically:

1- many verses of the Quran supports the freedom in choosing the religion

"There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm hand hold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower " (2-256)

did the god mentioned to kill them,

"And if thy Lord willed, all who are in the earth would have believed together. Wouldst thou (Muhammad) compel men until they are believers?" (10-99)

"Unto you your religion and unto me my religion". (109-6)

 

 

2- the Quran don't mention any earthly punishment for the apostate

"Lo! those who believe, then disbelieve and then (again) believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never pardon them, nor will He guide them unto a way". (4-137)

Not one to be killed except for:

"For that cause We decreed for the Children of israel (and you too) that whosoever killeth a human being for other than man slaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if be had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had: saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty) , but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth." (5-32)

 

3- the prophet didn't apply any punishment up on them,

one of the most famous cases that had been reported in the Quran when the hypocrite "Abd-Allah ben Obaii ben Salool" insulted the prophet and show full disbelieve in Islam, that his own son punished him and asked the prophet to kill him in case of the prophet ordered, while the prophet (pbuh) said: No

063.008 Y: They say, "If we return to Medina, surely the more honourable (element) will expel therefrom the meaner." But honour belongs to Allah and His Messenger, and to the Believers; but the Hypocrites know not.

 

4- some hadeaths support the killing of him either unconditional or conditional (if he worked against the Moslem society)

It was arguable long time ago, but never one killed for a free thinking only, it has to be combined with the corruption in the earth, Which you may call "great disloyalty or betrayal". Many different individual Fatwas had been issued, while the ruling system at the time didn't apply any.

 

Islamic "fatwa" doesn't depend one Aiaa or one hadeeth. They have to survey all the verses and hadeethes and what is near or related to it and probable benefits and side effects depends on time and place …. To give a fatwa.

In 2001, the high counsel of the Islamic affairs, Alazhar, the highest Islamic authority in Egypt published a "fatwa", the apostate ought to be "yostatab يستتاب "discussed, advised, and reviewed all of his life. Not to be killed nor jailed.

 

2nd Practically:

Since the appearance of Islam to this moment, it's not reported (in any kind of Islamic historical books) more than odd number of these cases.

 

3rd Comparisons:

While I like to compare the Islamic case to some other religions, for example what was happening between the eastern church and the western church since the 3rd and 4th centauries to a very near time. And also what was happening in Europe for 300 successive years between the catholic and protestants, the inspection courts, the burning on the cross….etc.

 

A practical non-religious system:

I have no Idea how we can see Former USSR (1917-1989) ruling system, which had kicked religions out of life, is it Atheism or non-religious or ….,while the sure fact that wasn't Islamic. They tried, as a human being thinkers to have happiness away from god. They had the brilliant scientists and the great thinkers while they totally failed. They caused 10s millions of killings, poverty and oppression to their own people.

finally, practically and comparativelly, this specific point have to be ignored and stop speaking about in Islam, and begin to study the resons, number of cases and solutions in other ruling systems

 

Allah knows best

Edited by AHMAD_73

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Ahmad, I don't doubt your explanation of the Qur'an, but I was wondering what the passage meant that AbdulMuhd quoted in (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?s=&showtopic=736319&view=findpost&p=1241173"]his post above[/url].

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Ahmad, I don't doubt your explanation of the Qur'an, but I was wondering what the passage meant that AbdulMuhd quoted in (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?s=&showtopic=736319&view=findpost&p=1241173"]his post above[/url].

First, let me remind you with this

Away of the main beliefs, the worship practicing and main pillars of Islam you many find different opinions between the Moslem scholars in the optional or rarely happened issues.

there are points in Islam had been left for the Moslem scholars and the knowledgeable persons in the Islamic society to discuss and specify withen limitations. for example among the 100s of crimes defined and known in the Islamic societies and the whole world, Islam didn't specify a punishments for it, but 5 among them, which is called "Alhodood ÇáÍÏæÏ" while he left all the other crimes to society.

the legislation system in any Islamic society will be the ruler, council of Showrah and scholars. those will specify the arguable and flexible issues in the society. Islamic "fatwa" doesn't depend one Aiaa or one hadeeth. They have to survey all the verses and hadeethes in such issue, and what is near or related to it. and the probable benefits and side effects depends on time and place. and discuss all of that withen the general Islamic beliefs and the main steam …. To give a fatwa.

 

that Hadeeth is just a part from a bigger picture, it seems don't match with the Quranic verses about the mater. the Moslem scholars have different opinions about it.

some scholars believe it have to be applied, while others see the Quran points of view as the general case and this Hadeeth is a special case, for a special event some thing like (in the 4th year A.H some people from Nagd claimed to be Moslems and they have alot of Moslems in their people and they requested some Moslem teachers to teach them Islam. the Prophet (pbuh) send 70 good Moslem teachers with them. when they reached some far away place called "Maounh well" ÈÆÑ ãÚæäÉ , where they had a back up fighters and they seiged the 70 Moslems and killed them)

 

after considering all of the above:

"the high counsel of the Islamic affairs, Alazhar, the highest Islamic authority in Egypt published a "fatwa", the apostate ought to be "yostatab íÓÊÊÇÈ "discussed, advised, and reviewed all of his life. Not to be killed nor jailed"and you will find other different opinions too along over the Islamic countries too.

 

Practically:

Since the appearance of Islam to this moment, it's not reported (in any kind of Islamic historical books) more than odd number of these cases.

While I like to compare the Islamic case to some other religions, for example what was happening between the eastern church and the western church since the 3rd and 4th centauries to a very near time. And also what was happening in Europe for 300 successive years between the catholic and protestants, the inspection courts, the burning on the cross….etc.

 

A practical non-religious system:

I have no Idea how we can see Former USSR (1917-1989) ruling system, which had kicked religions out of life, is it Atheism or non-religious or ….,while the sure fact that wasn't Islamic. They tried, as a human being thinkers to have happiness away from god. They had the brilliant scientists and the great thinkers while they totally failed. They caused 10s millions of killings, poverty and oppression to their own people.

 

and here is my question to you as a non-believer, what might caused the USSR to kill (10,000,000s) of his own people who differ with it in religion or political or social or economic points of views?

and i like to repeat the question to any christian who like to answer it for the prementioned christian cases?

 

may Allah show all of us his right way.

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First, let me remind you with this

Away of the main beliefs, the worship practicing and main pillars of Islam you many find different opinions between the Moslem scholars in the optional or rarely happened issues.

So, this is an undecided matter that is left up to interpretation, and as such, will vary according to the opinions of Islamic scholars. So, an apostate doesn't have anything to worry about, unless the local scholar(s) decide that it ought to be applied. Or if local leaders around him feel that the government is corrupt and not properly applying Islamic law and kill him based on the passage.

 

after considering all of the above:

"the high counsel of the Islamic affairs, Alazhar, the highest Islamic authority in Egypt published a "fatwa", the apostate ought to be "yostatab يستتاب "discussed, advised, and reviewed all of his life. Not to be killed nor jailed"and you will find other different opinions too along over the Islamic countries too.

Does that mean someone is going to visit with the apostate every day for the remainder of his life to review his apostasy with him? I'm not sure what that means "all of his life". Although I do appreciate the fact that he won't be killed or jailed. What about economic discrimination against him, is that ok?

 

A practical non-religious system:

I have no Idea how we can see Former USSR (1917-1989) ruling system, which had kicked religions out of life, is it Atheism or non-religious or ….,while the sure fact that wasn't Islamic. They tried, as a human being thinkers to have happiness away from god. They had the brilliant scientists and the great thinkers while they totally failed. They caused 10s millions of killings, poverty and oppression to their own people.

 

and here is my question to you as a non-believer, what might caused the USSR to kill (10,000,000s) of his own people who differ with it in religion or political or social or economic points of views?

OK, I will gladly answer for the USSR if you will answer for Timur. That seems comparable, although his campaigns killed around 17 million at the time when the world population was much smaller, so he might actually be worse. Not sure on that. On the other hand, if you deny that Timur is representative of Islam, then I don't feel compelled to defend the USSR as being representative of atheism or non-religion.

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i feel that issue takes lager area in your thinking than its real volume in reality. comparatevilly to what happened between the eastern and western church and what happened for 300 years between the catholic and protestants. and to the non-religious USSR 100,000,000s crimes against his own people. it's odd quantitatve and qualitative to evry other religion than Islam. it has to be totally ignored.

 

So, this is an undecided matter that is left up to interpretation, and as such, will vary according to the opinions of Islamic scholars. So, an apostate doesn't have anything to worry about, unless the local scholar(s) decide that it ought to be applied. Or if local leaders around him feel that the government is corrupt and not properly applying Islamic law and kill him based on the passage.

but yes, it will depend on the ruling system and Islamic scholars in a specific country. just exactly as there are different punishments in different US states for the same crime. and as the president of the US can send all of the US young men for death in a far away countries for no reason, really, no reason.

while there is a very beg difference in Islamic case, we don't have inspection courts or spies, or...., or....... to prove this case we have no thing but the person admitt and his work against his society. and so he who will decide to prove the case or no.

 

Does that mean someone is going to visit with the apostate every day for the remainder of his life to review his apostasy with him ?

i don't know at what rate, while i like it to be weakly. it's not have to be by a strange man but by a near by relative or friend.

 

I'm not sure what that means "all of his life".

or immigration.

 

Although I do appreciate the fact that he won't be killed or jailed. What about economic discrimination against him, is that ok?

it's totally personal freedom to deal with him

 

OK, I will gladly answer for the USSR if you will answer for Timur. That seems comparable, although his campaigns killed around 17 million at the time when the world population was much smaller, so he might actually be worse. Not sure on that. On the other hand, if you deny that Timur is representative of Islam, then I don't feel compelled to defend the USSR as being representative of atheism or non-religion.

 

in fact no one can judge the USSR actions, since it didn't work on a fixed known basis, it have no limits, it have no fixed references. and although this (experiment) didn't last too long, just 72 years but it made a catastrophic consequences on the whole world and on it's own poor people.

 

i don't have good idea about "Timur". while considering the humanity growth rate, i believe the whole world population did't reach 17,000,000 persons, at his time. it could be media effects

i'll study it and discuss it, no problem

 

keep seeking the truth, brother

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i feel that issue takes lager area in your thinking than its real volume in reality. comparatevilly to what happened between the eastern and western church and what happened for 300 years between the catholic and protestants. and to the non-religious USSR 100,000,000s crimes against his own people. it's odd quantitatve and qualitative to evry other religion than Islam. it has to be totally ignored.

But I am not ignoring it. I would never say that Islam is inherently more violent. And if asked, I would readily admit that mass killings have been done by just about everyone at one point or another in time. I am not arguing for the moral superiority of non-muslims. All I asked was for an interpretation of the verse that had been mentioned which at least had the appearance of contradicting you. I did not believe it contradicted you, but I did not know the correct interpretation either, and so I asked. Of course, being an apostate of sorts myself, I am also interested in not having apostates killed, since I can so easily sympathize with them.

 

while there is a very beg difference in Islamic case, we don't have inspection courts or spies, or...., or....... to prove this case we have no thing but the person admitt and his work against his society. and so he who will decide to prove the case or no.

So the apostate is only in danger if he is honest?

 

in fact no one can judge the USSR actions, since it didn't work on a fixed known basis, it have no limits, it have no fixed references. and although this (experiment) didn't last too long, just 72 years but it made a catastrophic consequences on the whole world and on it's own poor people.

 

i don't have good idea about "Timur". while considering the humanity growth rate, i believe the whole world population did't reach 17,000,000 persons, at his time. it could be media effects

i'll study it and discuss it, no problem

Yes, the USSR lasted 72 years and had millions of victims. Timur's reign lasted only half of that, and yet succeeded in killing at least as many people as the Soviets if not more. The world population in 1000 AD is estimated at about 310 million people. It was almost certainly more in Timur's time (late 14th century). The global population is estimated to have exceeded 17 million some time around 4000 BC. Feel free to look up all of this information. It should be readily available, including information in Timur.

 

By the way, my point in bringing up Timur isn't that you should defend him as a Muslim, you shouldn't, but rather that his murderous reign is no more to be associated with you and your beliefs than the Soviet Union is to be associated with me and mine, or the Inquisition for the Christian and his beliefs.

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